np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Fluffy Otters]

Since rain is apparently staying for now, I don't see why Manaphy won't get banned especially when Latios goes.

MANAPHY DOES NOT DIE. Seriously, it just doesn't. The only way you could win against a bulky Calm Minder really is by using Trick or Critical hitting it or hitting it really hard right away and not letting it get one since after Calm Mind+Reflect/Acid Armor, it's like game over (if it is mono-water Manaphy like that one, Vaporeon, Burungeru, and Suicune can Water Absorb but they can't really do much of anything else to it barring Suicune). Those carrying 2 attacks can also choose to beat those with Energy Ball or carry Icebeam for Dragons and Grass. The only Electric attacks that really threaten Manaphy are Specs Stabbed Thunders. After Calm Mind, even those aren't a problem usually and won't be without stab.

And Landlos should go. Checking Damage calculations with 1.3, you still murder everything and the fact that it hit harder than it should have makes little difference since again, Sandstrength 1-2 hit koes everything anyways and +2 allows it to ohko physical defensive Skarmory and 2 hit ko Brongzong in Sand with Stone Edge which is just messed up. It's silly to assume that there is any large difference between 1.33 and 1.5 on a pokemon already as strong as Landlos.

 

[kobo1d]

An undisclosed source has rumored the votes cast so far have sealed the fate of all but deoxys-n, whose vote remains too close to call at this time.

Manaphy has achieved majority for uber, latios/reinculus/excadrill cannot possibly achieve supermajority this round.

 

[JSND]

lol but everybody calculated landros damage with 1.3 and TBH i too find that thing is very ridiculous with the calcs. 0.2 boost isnt that much of a boost seeing Belt TTar doesnt much more damage compared to normal Tar.

Also arghhh i dont want to have dory for ANOTHER round !!!!!! see how many people complained bout dory and so many said he should have banned last time its just unlogical !!
i just feel bad for using dory and rain especialy that rapin spin dory and broken trio/politoed/Sr user/ filler core which is why i stop using it

 

[November Blue]

I hope latios, reuniclus and excadrill don't go. It's too early for them.

I feel that people are picking on these three because they're easily singled out. Latios was a past uber and the other two are new ("WTF IS THIS ALL OF A SUDDEN BAN IT!" kinda new.) Nobody nominated tyranitar for example because it's tyranitar the OU pokemon, even though it enables landorus and excadrill, has amazing stats and can be wildly unpredictable.

Double standards everywhere.

EDDIT: Thanks haunter!

 

[SJCrew]

Nobody nominates Tyranitar or Sand Stream because its effect is way too passive and enables only two Pokemon that are [possibly] broken mostly by their own merits instead of entire teams of abusable sweepers. On top of that, Tyranitar himself is easy as shit to counter.

If Sand had 7 different kinds of Doryuuzu to choose from and other effects besides a meager 6% to some Pokemon each turn, then we'd be onto something. Like, imagine Stone Edge and EQ being boosted by 50% all the time regardless of ability. Then we'd be in for some serious shit.

 

[JSND]

I hope latios, reuniclus and excadrill don't go. It's too early for them.

I feel that people are picking on these three because they're easily singled out. Latios was a past uber and the other two are new ("WTF IS THIS ALL OF A SUDDEN BAN IT!" kinda new.) Nobody nominated tyranitar for example because it's tyranitar the OU pokemon, even though it enables landorus and excadrill, has amazing stats and can be wildly unpredictable.

Double standards everywhere.

EDDIT: Thanks haunter!

You say too early but many say(for ESPECIALY doryuuzu) too late for them.
doryuuzu is 30 % last stage and a suspect last stage means it IS broken and it is too late fo dory to be banned. So its not new for dory and dory alone. And Latios is clearly fucked up really.

Nobody nominated Ttar ? seriously ? lol someone actualy did THAT.

@ SJ: lol that would be ridiculously crazy. STAB stone edge from Ttar will make msot switch in cry. Thats the reason why SS dont give auto power lol.

 

[PttP]

Dory has a fair amount of practical counters such as gliscor bronzong and skarmory. Hell even a 4 hp zuru can survive any of its attacks. Dory truely isnt very menacing and by the looks of your complaining your team either sucks a lot or you do. I can respect complaining with an argument but youre just spewing out random shit

 

[phalanx]

manaphy should go, latios should go, then maybe things will be easier, latios OHKOing everything is a joke tbh.. hopefully kingdra will go as that is just as bad (stupid typing, strong stabs etc)

 

[Acritter]

An undisclosed source has rumored the votes cast so far have sealed the fate of all but deoxys-n, whose vote remains too close to call at this time.

Manaphy has achieved majority for uber, latios/reinculus/excadrill cannot possibly achieve supermajority this round.

Cool lack of citation, bro. Regardless of whether this is true or not, don't say stuff and then not back it up. Otherwise we end up with stupidity like "Latios DM can OHKO Blissey!"

 

[JSND]

Dory has a fair amount of practical counters such as gliscor bronzong and skarmory. Hell even a 4 hp zuru can survive any of its attacks. Dory truely isnt very menacing and by the looks of your complaining your team either sucks a lot or you do. I can respect complaining with an argument but youre just spewing out random shit

Well my team definitely doesnt sucks but tbh i, as a dory player do know how easy it is to counetr dory. however the state of current metagame make countering dory extremely hard for some non existantly wierd reason.

I make a team with PD gliscor, and skarmory and dory swept me 5 out of 8 time and im not sucks at playing that team and i am not suck in general.
He IS very menacing and definitely if were asked which poke is Top 10 threats in gen 5 dory definitely in. But judging from your post i think you think dory is just good but not broken which is logical seeing how controversial dory really is.

To quote i need 2 counter to beat dory consistently. If i dont run azu or otehr weather like said somewhere, i cant ebat both other weather and dory in tandem. As a whole, dory itself is troublesome. Gliscor is easily destroyed by most top threats to be used easily and bronzong is just easy to abuse in current meta. Skarm cant beat last poke dory and my team's dory actualy used to COUNTER skarm which is funny. And the answer is now to virizion which is good but i need to use offensive variants to really counter dory. The reason ? read below

Well this is not an argument. this is my opinion about dory. Hes too ridiculous in my experience both when i use or face it and i believe by the time dory is banned, gen 5 metagame will become more diverese since you dont have dory to troll you every corner.

Finally i must say one of the biggest problem to dory is his bulk. As a frightening fragile-so-to-say sweeper, his bulk is on par with some of the ridiculous sweeper with good bulk such as mence.
My dory with some although big investment survived Holy Sword STAB from at least 216 attack(dunno the investment but base 90 means lowest stats is THAT value) which means if something attack in those value used 270 base powered move, it will survive.

And since im confident that im the only suer of this dory, i had a match where i win the weather war. my chomp is at half and i dont have the others except those that lose to dory. To my big surprise sun boosted Fire blast from Yachechomp(jolly no investment)
does 80 % to dory and he EQ me and sweep in sun. Now thats talking about some bulky thing(seeing that this means skarm which has some good special bulk when properly Ev'ed is more fragile than dory).

Thanks

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Cool lack of citation, bro. Regardless of whether this is true or not, don't say stuff and then not back it up. Otherwise we end up with stupidity like "Latios DM can OHKO Blissey!"

How does that relate to the outcome of the suspect voting in any way? He said an undisclosed source; don't believe it if you don't want to, but don't equate it to misinformation like that.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

doryuuzu is 30 % last stage and a suspect last stage means it IS broken and it is too late fo dory to be banned.

...what? So, because 30% of voters last time though it was broken means it is when the other 70% thought it wasn't broken? What?

Please I really want to know what you mean here.

 

[JSND]

well that post has some overestimated words and some unlogical placement of the word. sorry.
While what i think now is different too many people in this stage say why didnt dory banned last round shit as far as ive seen it. Yeah its just 30 % vote but thats doubled vote on latios. But saying IF dory being banned is too early is just weird seeing dory has been a suspect in every stage and too many have complained(matters little).

The important flaw of that post is im saying being nommed means broken. lol sorry

 

[Disposable Puppets]

Being nominated doesn't automatically means something's broken. It just means that people want to "take a closer look" at it. Just because something's nominated doesn't mean it'll get banned automatically.

I've used Excadrill on every single one of my teams since 5th gen started. I've found that while it's a great sweeper, it's not broken. It's really fast but several defensive pokemon can check it well. It's just a great sweeper that can win the match if you give it the right support, which can be said about any top sweeper.

Personally I've found that if I don't use Life Orb on Excadrill, it's coverage moves don't hit as hard as I'd like to. Meanwhile if I don't use balloon, I'm vulnerable to spikes. So I'm often wondering which item I should use lol

 

[JSND]

yup thats true but i just think its broken and some might think so seeing doryuuzu is nommend by so many. But yeah rapid spin dory is just plain ridiculous in my plays.
Its so effective at spinning

 

[CTNC]

I remember Manaphy from when Rain was an almost every team...

Is the Ban Hammer ready? :D

 

[SJCrew]

Luckily, we're well into that lull between Suspect periods where we prepare for the new metagame and don't have to see the obvious Suspects on every team. I can already feel the smell of new metagame with Manaphy banned.

But I'm still not happy that permarain is here under a stipulation. On top of that, some people want Deoxys-N back. Talk about moving backward. :/

 

[sax king]

I really don't see how Latios is so broken this round. He's too frail and not quite fast enough to be untouchable. Part of the reason that Doryuuzu is so hard to fight is that he is basically untouchable due to his speed and power. But Latios can be outsped by anything with a scarf and is too frail to last more than one hit. If you don't have a scarfed revenge killer (which you probably should), then predict the attack and switch in something that can take the hits and can ill it back. Most Latios just spam Draco Metoer, lowering their special attack and making it easier to wall them.

"But what about Scarf Latios? I can't outspeed that and revenge kill it!"

Guess what? Scarf Latios has a scarf, meaning that it's always locked into one move. Just predict it and switch to something that can take it. Most Latios spam Draco Metoer, as said above, so countering it isn't too hard. Most teams should have a steel type to take the hit. Even if the opponent outpredicts you and uses something like HP Fire, you still have several options. You can just switch to anything that resists Fire to revenge kill it or set up. Guess what, Gyarados can abuse Latios's Choice Scarf to set up and sweep the opponent. You can also just attack the opponent with any priority attack. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch OHKO's. Most Sucker Punches OHKO it. Shadow Sneak also usually OHKO's it. So choiced Latios really isn't unstoppable.

"But my opponent already killed my steel type(s)!"

Guess what? That's the whole point of having a Latios sweep. You remove the counters and just blow through the team. You could say the same thing about any other pokemon. You could justify Yanmega as being broken because after its counters are removed, it can blow through teams. After Luvdisc's counters are removed, it can blow through teams, so let's ban it now. Of course a team utilizing Latios is going to try to remove its counters, but that's the whole point of using it. Just because people know how to use it well doesn't mean it's broken.

"After -BLANK- is banned it will be broken. Why don't we just ban it now and save ourselves the time?"

I'm sorry I didn't know you could predict the future. It's awesome that you know exactly what the metagame will be like next round, and exactly how people are going to vote. I want to take my time, however, and I don't want to jump the gun on any bans. We don't know what will be broken next round for sure until it comes around. So let's take the time to make a good metagame with the right bans and the right thought process.

So there's no need to ban Latios in our current metagame. It's frail, easily revenge killed, predictable, and has plenty of counters and checks. There's no need to theorymon and ban it thinking that it will be banned next round.

 

[TLK]

I really don't see how Latios is so broken this round. He's too frail and not quite fast enough to be untouchable. Part of the reason that Doryuuzu is so hard to fight is that he is basically untouchable due to his speed and power. But Latios can be outsped by anything with a scarf and is too frail to last more than one hit. If you don't have a scarfed revenge killer (which you probably should), then predict the attack and switch in something that can take the hits and can ill it back. Most Latios just spam Draco Metoer, lowering their special attack and making it easier to wall them.

"But what about Scarf Latios? I can't outspeed that and revenge kill it!"

Guess what? Scarf Latios has a scarf, meaning that it's always locked into one move. Just predict it and switch to something that can take it. Most Latios spam Draco Metoer, as said above, so countering it isn't too hard. Most teams should have a steel type to take the hit. Even if the opponent outpredicts you and uses something like HP Fire, you still have several options. You can just switch to anything that resists Fire to revenge kill it or set up. Guess what, Gyarados can abuse Latios's Choice Scarf to set up and sweep the opponent. You can also just attack the opponent with any priority attack. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch OHKO's. Most Sucker Punches OHKO it. Shadow Sneak also usually OHKO's it. So choiced Latios really isn't unstoppable.

"But my opponent already killed my steel type(s)!"

Guess what? That's the whole point of having a Latios sweep. You remove the counters and just blow through the team. You could say the same thing about any other pokemon. You could justify Yanmega as being broken because after its counters are removed, it can blow through teams. After Luvdisc's counters are removed, it can blow through teams, so let's ban it now. Of course a team utilizing Latios is going to try to remove its counters, but that's the whole point of using it. Just because people know how to use it well doesn't mean it's broken.

"After -BLANK- is banned it will be broken. Why don't we just ban it now and save ourselves the time?"

I'm sorry I didn't know you could predict the future. It's awesome that you know exactly what the metagame will be like next round, and exactly how people are going to vote. I want to take my time, however, and I don't want to jump the gun on any bans. We don't know what will be broken next round for sure until it comes around. So let's take the time to make a good metagame with the right bans and the right thought process.

So there's no need to ban Latios in our current metagame. It's frail, easily revenge killed, predictable, and has plenty of counters and checks. There's no need to theorymon and ban it thinking that it will be banned next round.

How is Latios frail in any way? Firstly, it has 80/80/110 - meaning that its special bulk is higher than that of Zapdos, and it's physical bulk is also fairly good. 110 speed is very very fast, and just because things can be outsped with a scarf means nothing. No common scarf user outside of Tyranitar can switch in on Specs Latios.

Skymin, for example, was ridiculously fast but could be outsped by a scarf. The ability to revenge kill it isn't the problem, it's the fact that it comes in, and either: takes out your steel type; or spams Draco Meteor for an entire match. Without a Pursuit user, he's just going to keep doing it until you're dead.

Latios doesn't even need team support to take out steel types. It beats every steel type in the game. Heatran is beaten by surf, while Scizor/Nattorei are dealt with by HP Fire.

Plenty of counters? Outside of Specially defensive T-Tar/Rachi, nothing can switch in on your standard Specs Latios set of: Draco Meteor; HP Fire; Surf; Psycho Shock.

It has a few checks, not too many but a few. Scizor is a great check but can't switch in for HP Fire. T-Tar is an excellent check but wouldn't like a Specs Surf. Kingdra is a great check (in rain) but can't switch in on a DM at all.

What Pokemon can't be 2HKO'd by Latios apart from Specially Defensive T-Tar; Porygon2 and Chansey (haven't done calcs on Chansey)? It 2HKO's everything, the life orb set eases prediction, so if you rely on "out predicting it" (which is not justification for not banning, as the opponent can also out predict you), then when you switch in Nattorei on a Surf, for example, you're just going to be ruined by HP Fire.

 

[voodoo pimp]

"But my opponent already killed my steel type(s)!"

Guess what? That's the whole point of having a Latios sweep. You remove the counters and just blow through the team. You could say the same thing about any other pokemon. You could justify Yanmega as being broken because after its counters are removed, it can blow through teams. After Luvdisc's counters are removed, it can blow through teams, so let's ban it now. Of course a team utilizing Latios is going to try to remove its counters, but that's the whole point of using it. Just because people know how to use it well doesn't mean it's broken.

Ridiculous argument. Everything and its mother counters Luvdisc, and lots of stuff can take a hit or two from Yanmega and/or outspeed and KO it. Almost nobody is going to have a team full of steel types, so its counters are much more easily removed, especially now that Stealth Rock is less common so switching it back in is even easier.

 

[Demoness]

Oh yes, Doryuuzu has so much power, not being able to even KO pretty much any bulky wall who isn't hit by Earthquake even after a Swords Dance and pretty much needing to use Balloon in order to secure a safe set up turn on almost any team. Doryuuzu needs the several counters and checks he has out of the way too, and he needs to set up to start doing reasonable damage to bulky Pokemon. Latios just needs to switch in and Draco Meteor, sometimes using Surf or HP Fire to hit his common switch ins.

Guess what? Scarf Latios has a scarf, meaning that it's always locked into one move. Just predict it and switch to something that can take it. Most Latios spam Draco Metoer, as said above, so countering it isn't too hard. Most teams should have a steel type to take the hit. Even if the opponent outpredicts you and uses something like HP Fire, you still have several options. You can just switch to anything that resists Fire to revenge kill it or set up. Guess what, Gyarados can abuse Latios's Choice Scarf to set up and sweep the opponent. You can also just attack the opponent with any priority attack. CB Scizor's Bullet Punch OHKO's. Most Sucker Punches OHKO it. Shadow Sneak also usually OHKO's it. So choiced Latios really isn't unstoppable.

Guess what? Most Latios are Choice Specs you idiot, so taking that Draco Meteor suddenly seems much harder now doesn't it? Those "counters" your talking about generally don't have reliable recovery (unless it's Skarmory, Scizor, or Blissey/Chansey), and most of them are mauled if the Latios user predicts correctly, which isn't that hard at all. It's laughable that you say that Gyarados can set up and sweep an opposing team when he has to deal with the bulky waters, Choice Scarfers, bulky Grasss types, and more. Choice Band Scizor's Bullet Punch does not OHKO, any Latios user who isn't a completel dumbass will switch out of any Sucker Punchers, and name any Shadow Sneaker that can OHKO Latios without needing setup.

Guess what? That's the whole point of having a Latios sweep. You remove the counters and just blow through the team. You could say the same thing about any other pokemon. You could justify Yanmega as being broken because after its counters are removed, it can blow through teams. After Luvdisc's counters are removed, it can blow through teams, so let's ban it now. Of course a team utilizing Latios is going to try to remove its counters, but that's the whole point of using it. Just because people know how to use it well doesn't mean it's broken.

Wow. I fail to see how you can say that Latios isn't broken because he needs his counters to be gotten rid of before he starts sweeping when this applies to Doryuuzu on a much larger scale. Any team that uses Doryuuzu will try and remove his counters, which is a list that is much larger then Latios's. A Specs Latios with Draco Meteor/Hp Fire/Surf/Psycho Shock has pretty much no safe switch ins, save Chansey if Latios is using Psycho Shock. Doryuuzu on the other hand, has Rotom-W, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Suicune, and more that I can't think of right now.

 

[JSND]

The problem is

Latios has so much raw power to use and from my perspective specs suer is kind of hole maker which prepare for other's sweep. Latios can do this on a high scale with his ridiculously powerful DM while having 110 speed. As a bonus he has great stats overall.
Latios nearly dont need to predict too much and thanks to team preview, if we need to it become easier. Now the worst part of latios when compared to latias is his 130 SpA meaning he has ridiculous meteor. Both Latios and latias dont have safe switch in at all due to trick making it nearly have no counter. okay heres the pokemonn that can counter lats. Oh yes trick also help dory set up which is really gay.

SpD ttar(the only hard one), Scizor(Hp Fire), Shubarugo(Hp Fire), @ssey, etc.

Now if were comparing to dory i say hes more broken. At least latios have 110 speed and i can bait meteor and set up to beat it and the whole team. Dory has some popular counter which inevitably popular due to threats level dory possesed. He is the third fastest weather sweeper and second fastest amiong those that is used. In logical team these days, we DO need 2 counter to consistently beat it since his counter that is common which was skarm, hippo,and gliscor is either lose to rando, easy to give opportunity to opponent and quite shaky for some dory(believe me skarm cant do shit to my bulky dory) making removing its rather few checks/counter easier than other ridiculous poke such as sceptile(lol how many must i wekaen my opponent for this to sweep ?). utility wise, dory is very great. Its the best Rapid spinner offensively since among ghosts switch in risk getting a really heavy hit or getting swept with his ridiculously powerful attack since he need only 1 slot which he usualy use for utility move to become spinner. Combined with his absurd endurance to residual, bulk to survive every +0 priority in the game, and being an unholy combination pack of sweeper, spinner, and revenge killer, and sometime tank it make him really good and controversial


Edit: Suicune countering doryuuzu is a bit of complete bullshit and shaky. Defensive suicune is 3HKOed AND as a bonus wont OHKO dory withs surf. Dory isnt that fragile that any SE STAB can kill him instantly.
same case with vaporeon

 

[Zombeh]

Doryuuzu on the other hand, has Rotom-W, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Suicune, and more that I can't think of right now.

Blaziken can if you send it in on a Nattorei (or something that will switch out) so you get the free Swords Dance, Speed Boost, and then you take out Dory (or most a lot of other things your opponent can send in.)

 

[voodoo pimp]

Blaziken can if you send it in on a Nattorei (or something that will switch out) so you get the free Swords Dance, Speed Boost, and then you take out Dory (or most a lot of other things your opponent can send in.)

Jolly Dory outspeeds even at +2 (Adamant obviously wins at +1, which is where you'll be if they switch it in), and kills you with any of its moves besides X-Scissor. Not a counter. If you want to beat it, you'll have to attack on the switch.

 

[UltiMario]

I don't quite understand this Drizzle + Swift Swim ban.

Remember when we tested Deo-A for brokeness, and let Deo-N sit there and collect dust, and banned them both because Deo-A was broken and Deo-N also looked broken on paper? Now people want to re-test Deo-N because it never got a chance.

Now look at the present. We just banned Drizzle + Swift Swim, and possibly even Manaphy (still waiting on this) in a single test. We never even got a chance to test a metagame without Manaphy and see how Rain would fare. Now you're just going to get more people yelling at you just to ban Manaphy AGAIN if it doesn't get unbanned, or if it DOES get banned, people will be calling it unfair to not test a Manaphyless metagame. Manaphy should be banned anyways, because if it was broken WITHOUT the proposal, it's broken WITH the proposal anyways because it's uneffected.

I seriously cannot comprehend the reason why you would vote on the proposal NOW instead of at the next test. There is literally no logical explanation why you should. Doing so literally just puts Smogon on hold for a month of suspect testing as people complain for re-tests due to this double strike on rain, getting it ratified for re-testing, then suspect testing a month later.

Can someone PLEASE give me a SINGLE good reason why it was a good idea to vote on Manaphy AND Drizzle + SS Ban in a SINGLE suspect test?