np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[November Blue]

Latios doesn't outclass hydreigon at all, they're vastly different. The only similarities are the dragon typing, levitate and high special attack.

Latios has:

Higher speed and special attack.
Psychic typing which resists mach punch and allows it to wall other psychics somewhat.
Specially bulkier than hydreigon
Dragon dance, which would be more effective on hydreigon
Calm mind
Access to the psychic movepool, which includes moved like trick, magic coat and psycho shift
Recover and refresh

Hydreigon has:

No viable boosting moves outside work up and psych up
Better physical bulk
Pursuit resistance
Access to U-turn
Taunt and torment (latios doen't learn these, oddly.)
Sits in a lower speed tier, allowing it to run modest effectively
Effectively has higher special attack than latios due to this (383 vs. 359)
Higher attack stat allows it to go mixed (base 105 vs. 90)
Flamethrower and fire blast
A tail, giving it access to dragon tail
A gigantic movepool, learning attacks of 13 different types including earth power, earthquake, rock slide, stone edge, dark pulse, crunch, thunder fang, ice fang, fire fang, focus blast, acrobat, head smash and flash cannon
Unpredictability

Hydreigon is more comparable to salamence IMO. Albeit special based, they can both run mixed sets and are dangerously unpredictable. Latios is really just a one trick pony. He's an extremely powerful pony, but a pony nonetheless.

 

[masterful]

Latios doesn't outclass hydreigon at all, they're vastly different. The only similarities are the dragon typing, levitate and high special attack.

Latios has:

Higher speed and special attack.
Psychic typing which resists mach punch and allows it to wall other psychics somewhat.
Specially bulkier than hydreigon
Dragon dance, which would be more effective on hydreigon
Calm mind
Access to the psychic movepool, which includes moved like trick, magic coat and psycho shift
Recover and refresh

Hydreigon has:

No viable boosting moves outside work up and psych up
Better physical bulk
Pursuit resistance
Access to U-turn
Taunt and torment (latios doen't learn these, oddly.)
Sits in a lower speed tier, allowing it to run modest effectively
Effectively has higher special attack than latios due to this (383 vs. 359)
Higher attack stat allows it to go mixed (base 105 vs. 90)
Flamethrower and fire blast
A tail, giving it access to dragon tail
A gigantic movepool, learning attacks of 13 different types including earth power, earthquake, rock slide, stone edge, dark pulse, crunch, thunder fang, ice fang, fire fang, focus blast, acrobat, head smash and flash cannon
Unpredictability

Hydreigon is more comparable to salamence IMO. Albeit special based, they can both run mixed sets and are dangerously unpredictable. Latios is really just a one trick pony. He's an extremely powerful pony, but a pony nonetheless.

My issue with Sazando is that he does a lot of things, but not very well. He can run mixed, but Mence really does it better (it has better speed and its attack is higher than Sazando's SpA), it can run specs, but Latios does it better (way better speed), and it can run scarf, but Flygon/Garchomp do it arguably yat least as well.

 

[November Blue]

Stop trying to pidgeonhole him into the shadow of another dragon. He's unique and has his own niches. He's still fast enough to outspeed the majority of the metagame scarved, has flygons' U-turn and latios' draco meteor and can take on heatran much better than latios. He's like a chimera, taking the best aspects of other dragons and combining them into a terrifying mostrosity that's a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

 

[PK Gaming]

The only set that Sazandora should be running is LO. All of the other sets risk being outclassed by other Dragons.
Draco Meteor / Flamethrower / * / *

*(Dark Pulse, U-turn, Focus Blast, Surf its up to you really)
People stop using Scarf on Sazandora. Scarf Sazandora is horrible (and predictable too)

 

[Darusare]

Just posting to remind you guys Cresselia and Porygon2 are perfect Salamence counters.

meh cresselia isnt all that good
but porygon 2 was debated as a counter in 4th gen which was pre evolution stone
so porygon 2 definately is now

 

[sxof]

Cresselia "not being too good" is no reason to disregard it as a Mence counter.

 

[domeface]

Hydreigon is far from 'terrifying', but 'jack of all trades, master of none' is a very accurate description imo. Also, this bullshit about Hydreigon being able to run Modest better than Latios is just plain wrong; Latios can run Modest, but it's better off utilising its better speed. Having lower Speed with similar defenses doesn't make him better at running Modest, it just makes him worse at running Timid. Modest Latios vs Modest Hydreigon has the same advantages as Timid Latios vs Timid Hydreigon.

Of course, Hydreigon has other benefits, but saying he's 'better at running Modest' because he's slower is just flawed logic.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Thank you. I really wonder why Sazando (I will call him that until I die) is even really considered a problem, as I don't know if every Sazando carries surf, or if it will really be doing enough with T-tar's beast SpD

It's Sazandora. Sazandra if you will.


And as said, LO Timid Hydreigon does 130.2% - 153.7% on 0/0 Tyranitar (115% - 135.8% if 180/0, 81.2% - 96% if 252/216 Careful). Problem is, a shitload of Tyranitar are carrying Superpower nowadays, so you *need* to hit. And I'd rather use Focus Blast than Surf but then again, I use Sun/Sand teams...

 

[Nanoswine]

Latios has:

Higher speed and special attack.
Psychic typing which resists mach punch and allows it to wall other psychics somewhat.
Specially bulkier than hydreigon
Dragon dance, which would be more effective on hydreigon
Calm mind
Access to the psychic movepool, which includes moved like trick, magic coat and psycho shift and psycho shock
Recover and refresh

Hydreigon has:

No viable boosting moves outside work up and psych up
Better physical bulk
Pursuit resistance
Access to U-turn
Taunt and torment (latios doen't learn these, oddly.)If you are using Sazandora, you should be abusing it's excellent special movepool, not making a Torment set.
Sits in a lower speed tier, allowing it to run modest effectively
Effectively has higher special attack than latios due to this (383 vs. 359)what domeface said
Higher attack stat allows it to go mixed (base 105 vs. 90)Psycho Shock
Flamethrower and fire blast
A tail, giving it access to dragon tail Which is a waste of a moveslot on something meant to blast chunks into the opponent's team. If you want to scout, it has uturn
A gigantic movepool, learning attacks of 13 different types including earth power, earthquake, rock slide, stone edge, dark pulse, crunch, thunder fang, ice fang, fire fang, focus blast, acrobat, head smash and flash cannon Ok you can stop throwing in shit attacks here >_>
Unpredictability What makes Hydregion unpredictable compared to Latios? oh shit DM or FB comin my way as opposed to maybe Latios is going to trick off it's specs? if anything Latios is less predictable.

Hydreigon is more comparable to salamence IMO. Albeit special based, they can both run mixed sets and are dangerously unpredictable. Latios is really just a one trick pony. He's an extremely powerful pony, but a pony nonetheless.

So we have on one hand a significantly faster and slightly stronger Pokemon with the ability to use CM, specially bulky, resistant to fighting, instant recovery, trick, and the ability to go mixed without splitting it's EVs.

On the other hand we have a Pokemon that is just too slow, has mixed bulk (which isn't necessarily a good thing), resistance to Dark and Ghost, slightly less powerful (significantly less on the physical side accounting for Psycho Shock) attacking stats, no good way to boost them, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, U-Turn, and Earth Power coming off those weaker attacking stats, and weakness to Mach Punch (as if it isn't getting outsped by everything else anyways).

If you want to run Specs, Latios does it better. If you want to go mixed, Latios, Mence, and even Kyurem do it better. If you want to go Scarfed, Latios (although it has more useful sets) and Garchomp do it better. Jack of all trades, master of none is a crappy claim to fame because any set that you make, although it can pull off many, is going to be done better by something else. You can't run a mixed Specs set to good effect (although Latios can!).

 

[Ice-eyes]

It has its niche. Flamethrower is invaluable. U-Turn is nice. But really, at the end of the day, there have been so many times when I've been staring down a Hydreigon and thinking, 'man, I would be SO screwed if that was a Latios'.

 

[IcyMan28]

Hydreigon is far from 'terrifying', but 'jack of all trades, master of none' is a very accurate description imo. Also, this bullshit about Hydreigon being able to run Modest better than Latios is just plain wrong; Latios can run Modest, but it's better off utilising its better speed. Having lower Speed with similar defenses doesn't make him better at running Modest, it just makes him worse at running Timid. Modest Latios vs Modest Hydreigon has the same advantages as Timid Latios vs Timid Hydreigon.

Of course, Hydreigon has other benefits, but saying he's 'better at running Modest' because he's slower is just flawed logic.

The cost Latios incurs when running Modest is far worse than the cost Hydreigon incurs when doing the same; Hydreigon can actually pull it off to reasonable success.

So we have on one hand a significantly faster and slightly stronger Pokemon with the ability to use CM, specially bulky, resistant to fighting, instant recovery, trick, and the ability to go mixed without splitting it's EVs.

On the other hand we have a Pokemon that is just too slow, has mixed bulk (which isn't necessarily a good thing), resistance to Dark and Ghost, slightly less powerful (significantly less on the physical side accounting for Psycho Shock) attacking stats, no good way to boost them, Fire Blast, Focus Blast, U-Turn, and Earth Power coming off those weaker attacking stats, and weakness to Mach Punch (as if it isn't getting outsped by everything else anyways).

If you want to run Specs, Latios does it better. If you want to go mixed, Latios, Mence, and even Kyurem do it better. If you want to go Scarfed, Latios (although it has more useful sets) and Garchomp do it better. Jack of all trades, master of none is a crappy claim to fame because any set that you make, although it can pull off many, is going to be done better by something else. You can't run a mixed Specs set to good effect (although Latios can!).

Latios rarely runs CM or Recover in my experience (especially on the same set), as that is better done by Latias. And Latios' fighting resistance is valuable, yes, but then again it isn't like it will be taking too much punishment; it falls to LO Lucario's Close Combat + Extremespeed, for example, so it really is only relevant in the case of Mach Punch (which is admittedly good). And then most fighting types will carry either Stone Edge or Payback for coverage options: Conkeldurr's Stone Edge or SE Payback is hitting Latios for 50%, as a point of reference.

Hydreigon is far from "too slow" as well, sitting pretty at base 98 speed. While there are 10 or so threats that it fails to outspeed, it outruns quite a bit itself and has the resistances to switch in on multiple occasions. I'm really not understanding how you think decent bulk on both ends isn't a good thing, as Specs versions can be EVd to withstand Durr's +1 Mach Punch at little cost to its general effectiveness, and it takes various hits better than Latios could (Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball, a stray Stone Edge, etc).

You are really minimizing the effect of base power on moves. Hydreigon is hitting MUCH harder with Fire Blast or Focus Blast than Latios is off of Hidden Power's paltry 70 BP, and U-Turn is nice for keeping momentum. Psycho Shock, while a decent choice on Latios, isn't as big of a deal what with Blissey and Chansey being so much less common, and Trick being an option to cripple them both regardless.

__________


The reason Hydreigon is generally not effective is because, for whatever reason, people feel like Scarf is the way to go, and it isn't. It is inferior to various other dragons, is highly predictable, and you lose out on a Scarfer than can actually outpace boosted threats (Mence, Volcarona, etc). If you want to make use of Hydreigon well, you need to be running LO (which allows it to run mixed very effectively), the Stallbreaker set (Taunt / U-Turn / Flamethrower / Draco Meteor), or bulkier versions of the Specs set, IMO, which still absolutely wrecks.

 

[Ewil]

i like to see hydregon on some sub+3 attack set.
That will not be so worst :O

 

[IcyMan28]

Hydreigon is too slow for that role, IMO. It will be easily forced out whereas something like Latios can get in a second attack for a potential 2HKO.

 

[SJCrew]

People stop using Scarf on Sazandora. Scarf Sazandora is horrible (and predictable too)

Why is that? He's about the same as every other Scarfer, except for Draco Meteor and U-turn. People had no shame in using Flygon last gen, even with it being twice as predictable and significantly less effective against stall.

Hydreigon is too slow for that role, IMO. It will be easily forced out whereas something like Latios can get in a second attack for a potential 2HKO.

It doesn't need two hits. Hydregion's movepool is good enough that it can OHKO just about any sweeper you can name under that Sub, and 2HKO most walls. So basically, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Focus Blast + Sub and you've got a sweet deal. You can also replace Sub with U-turn.

And really, how is he easy to force out when he's more powerful than Mence, has an even better movepool, and about the same speed? You're running the same risk that anything you switch in could be KOed.

 

[shrang]

Why is that? He's about the same as every other Scarfer, except for Draco Meteor and U-turn. People had no shame in using Flygon last gen, even with it being twice as predictable and significantly less effective against stall.

It doesn't need two hits. Hydregion's movepool is good enough that it can OHKO just about any sweeper you can name under that Sub, and 2HKO most walls. So basically, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Focus Blast + Sub and you've got a sweet deal. You can also replace Sub with U-turn.

And really, how is he easy to force out when he's more powerful than Mence, has an even better movepool, and about the same speed? You're running the same risk that anything you switch in could be KOed.

The reason it is "horrible" is because of that crappy base 98 Speed, therefore you're missing out on the numerous Pokemon that sit at 100. While Flygon had a 50-50 shot at revenging Mence, Sazandora has 0. While Base 100 isn't the most important target these days, it still has a truck-load of Pokemon sitting at it, waiting to be revenged.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

With Hydreigon, because of its base 98 speed, it's not outspeeding other scarfers well. Better to give it Choice Specs.

 

[IcyMan28]

Why is that? He's about the same as every other Scarfer, except for Draco Meteor and U-turn. People had no shame in using Flygon last gen, even with it being twice as predictable and significantly less effective against stall.

It doesn't need two hits. Hydregion's movepool is good enough that it can OHKO just about any sweeper you can name under that Sub, and 2HKO most walls. So basically, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Focus Blast + Sub and you've got a sweet deal. You can also replace Sub with U-turn.

And really, how is he easy to force out when he's more powerful than Mence, has an even better movepool, and about the same speed? You're running the same risk that anything you switch in could be KOed.

I see Scarf versions as an attempt to patch up Hydreigon's speed so it can fire off those Draco Meteors like Latios can, so I'd rather use Latios.

The main thing, however, is that I lose the opportunity to use arguably better Scarfers unless I want to run to scarves on my team. While the Base 100 Speed Group isn't as important as it once was, DDMence, BDVolcarona, ScarfJirachi, etc are still around, and I like to be able to outpace them with something like Terakion, Garchomp, or Latios. Garchomp, for example, has great dual STABs that make the power loss from running Scarf (as opposed to SD or LO) less noticeable, whereas Hydreigon really only has Draco Meteor for a power move. The same goes for Terakion, who also gets a Sandstorm boost, great coverage, and high BP STAB moves. Latios is in a similar boat to Hydreigon with Draco Meteor being its only power move, but the main reason I use it is for Trick, which helps it become less of a liability against the stall teams that usually scoff at Choice Scarf pokemon.

As for Sub Hydreigon, I dismissed it too quickly I'll admit. I disagree that it is more powerful than Mence, but I feel like if I'm running Sub I might as well want some speed to make up for the reduced bulk. Just a personal preference, though.

 

[Ewil]

It doesn't need two hits. Hydregion's movepool is good enough that it can OHKO just about any sweeper you can name under that Sub, and 2HKO most walls. So basically, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Focus Blast + Sub and you've got a sweet deal. You can also replace Sub with U-turn.

Did you have any idea of the set ?

Something like:

Hydregion @ leftovers
252 S.ATK 252 SPEED 4HP
timid nature

Draco-meteor
Fire-Blast
Focus Blast
Substitute/u-turn

could work ?
Maybe it must be more bulky :/

 

[masterful]

Why is that? He's about the same as every other Scarfer, except for Draco Meteor and U-turn. People had no shame in using Flygon last gen, even with it being twice as predictable and significantly less effective against stall.

It doesn't need two hits. Hydregion's movepool is good enough that it can OHKO just about any sweeper you can name under that Sub, and 2HKO most walls. So basically, Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Focus Blast + Sub and you've got a sweet deal. You can also replace Sub with U-turn.

And really, how is he easy to force out when he's more powerful than Mence, has an even better movepool, and about the same speed? You're running the same risk that anything you switch in could be KOed.

Yeah, but you sure as hell can't abuse that sub with -2 SpA

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Did you have any idea of the set ?

Something like:

Hydregion @ leftovers Life Orb
252 S.ATK 252 SPEED 4HP
timid nature

Draco-meteor
Fire-Blast Flamethrower
Focus Blast
Substitute/u-turn

could work ?
Maybe it must be more bulky :/

Is the set i use. it works really well, and almost always sweeps if it gets passed a Shell Break (I have Smeargle on my team for shits and giggles, it isn't a BP team).

 

[Brongaa]

With Hydreigon, because of its base 98 speed, it's not outspeeding other scarfers well. Better to give it Choice Specs.

But then that brings it back to the part where he's absolutely outclassed in that role by Latios.

 

[SJCrew]

The reason it is "horrible" is because of that crappy base 98 Speed, therefore you're missing out on the numerous Pokemon that sit at 100. While Flygon had a 50-50 shot at revenging Mence, Sazandora has 0. While Base 100 isn't the most important target these days, it still has a truck-load of Pokemon sitting at it, waiting to be revenged.

Ok, so there's Celebi, who doesn't threaten me, almost never runs max speed, and very few people use. There's Shaymin, who doesn't threaten me, and nobody uses, there's Flygon, who is terrible and nobody uses, then there's Salamence who, granted - oh wait, he doesn't run Scarf.

There's no reason to say Saz isn't legit. The only real issue he suffers from is "just another Dragon" syndrome.

I don't get Scarfchomp. It has the great ability to be walled by everything just to check a few dudes faster than him, who will end up switching to said wall anyway. I mean, honestly, what's to keep me from going straight to Skarmory and Forretress and getting a million layers of hazards...unless you guys mean to tell me he runs Fire Blast now? Bleh, ScarfChomp is a waste of all that power.

Sazandora is really hard to just outright wall because he can pack just the right move for anything on one set. All behind that 125 base Sp. Att... I'd use him more, but I'm really unenthused with Dragons in general these days.

 

[Brongaa]

Well, on that first point SSJ, by the time Saz comes in Salamence is already boosted.

Also, yes, I agree, ScarfChomp should only be used in Ubers. Anyone not using SDHaban/SDYache is doin' it wrong IMO, or just any set without Swords Dance.

 

[masterful]

Ok, so there's Celebi, who doesn't threaten me, almost never runs max speed, and very few people use. There's Shaymin, who doesn't threaten me, and nobody uses, there's Flygon, who is terrible and nobody uses, then there's Salamence who, granted - oh wait, he doesn't run Scarf.

There's no reason to say Saz isn't legit. The only real issue he suffers from is "just another Dragon" syndrome.

I don't get Scarfchomp. It has the great ability to be walled by everything just to check a few dudes faster than him, who will end up switching to said wall anyway. I mean, honestly, what's to keep me from going straight to Skarmory and Forretress and getting a million layers of hazards...unless you guys mean to tell me he runs Fire Blast now? Bleh, ScarfChomp is a waste of all that power.

Sazandora is really hard to just outright wall because he can pack just the right move for anything on one set. All behind that 125 base Sp. Att... I'd use him more, but I'm really unenthused with Dragons in general these days.

You can get outsped by Scarf Victini, Jirachi, Flygon (which still has a niche btw), Kojondo, Lati@s, Espeon, Gengar, and many others, while you could at the very least tie with said pokes using Scarf Lati@s

 

[IcyMan28]

Ok, so there's Celebi, who doesn't threaten me, almost never runs max speed, and very few people use. There's Shaymin, who doesn't threaten me, and nobody uses, there's Flygon, who is terrible and nobody uses, then there's Salamence who, granted - oh wait, he doesn't run Scarf.

There's no reason to say Saz isn't legit. The only real issue he suffers from is "just another Dragon" syndrome.

I don't get Scarfchomp. It has the great ability to be walled by everything just to check a few dudes faster than him, who will end up switching to said wall anyway. I mean, honestly, what's to keep me from going straight to Skarmory and Forretress and getting a million layers of hazards...unless you guys mean to tell me he runs Fire Blast now? Bleh, ScarfChomp is a waste of all that power.

Sazandora is really hard to just outright wall because he can pack just the right move for anything on one set. All behind that 125 base Sp. Att... I'd use him more, but I'm really unenthused with Dragons in general these days.

But by the same token, Jirachi flinches you, Volcarona outspeeds you at +1 and KOs you with Bug Buzz, ScarfGenesect (which is pretty popular in DW from what I've played) puts you in checkmate position with Bug Buzz/U-turn, and Salamence outruns you with +1 as well.

And I disagree with ScarfChomp. It's bulky, fast, and hits decently hard too, which means he can actually sweep late-game after he is done checking everything other than Scarf Lati twins and a few random users of Rock Polish. SDChomp isn't going to be sweeping anytime soon, either, but at least Scarf has more utility throughout the game rather than focusing it all into the late-game.

I have no issue with Hydreigon, and I use it often. I'm just stating why I don't think Scarf is his best use - it limits him to one attack, thus restricting that coverage, all for a subpar Scarfer...if i'm going to limit him I may as well make him hit hard with Specs.