np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

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Reuniclus isn't predictable the are using are predictable. It still doesn't change the fact that once players start adapting to your team(IE: attacking the switch in) you'll find that Reuniclus is signifcantly harder to counter.
Actually no, not really, but that's just specific to the team I run. All of the Pokemon I use that can serve to counter Reuniclus can easily take an unboosted Psychic/Psycho Boost/Focus Blast and still counter it. But I guess you have a point for more offense-oriented teams. It still doesn't explain why people are overlooking counters (even if you switch in on anything but CM) outside of Scizor and Ttar. And I'm sure people have lost with Jirachi one-on-one, that's probably why most Reuniclus even stick around when I send in Jirachi. But with the right set, Jirachi can definitely be a solid counter to Reuniclus, the same way CBTar can but LeadTar cannot.

Oh and Trick Room exists. You can't ignore the set because i've seen being used several times by the top players. Both sets require different approaches to countering it.
My experience regarding the rarity of Trick Room is solely based on experience against people at the top of the ladder. I dunno I feel if you go by a mentality of "assume it's CM until proven otherwise" you can't go wrong most of the time, and the very few times you might be wrong, you might lose a Pokemon, but in general I find TR has more counters/checks than the CM set, why else would almost everyone be using CM?

PS: I'm going to nominate Parasect just to spite you John.
No don't you dare! xD But actually if anything deserves more discussion in this thread it's Sharpedo, I've been murdering with it, and don't get why no one else is using it.
 
Blaziken is in no way suspect worthy. Just lol at that. I do agree that Reuniclus is very threatening and possibly the best in OU right now. Simplying attacking your switch-in instead of using CM mind makes it quite hard to deal with. And I don't get the hype about Doryuzu, as I still find Garchomp much more threatening. It isn't that hard to pop the Balloon and kill it.
 

PK Gaming

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Actually no, not really, but that's just specific to the team I run. All of the Pokemon I use that can serve to counter Reuniclus can easily take an unboosted Psychic/Psycho Boost/Focus Blast and still counter it. But I guess you have a point for more offense-oriented teams. It still doesn't explain why people are overlooking counters (even if you switch in on anything but CM) outside of Scizor and Ttar. And I'm sure people have lost with Jirachi one-on-one, that's probably why most Reuniclus even stick around when I send in Jirachi. But with the right set, Jirachi can definitely be a solid counter to Reuniclus, the same way CBTar can but LeadTar cannot.
Well if everyone on your team can counter Rankurusu then its obvious you wouldn't have a problem with it. Also i'd like to point out that only specially defensive Jirachi that runs Body Slam + Iron Head can beat Rankurusu because +1 Focus Blast deals to much damage to offensive Jirachi. I don't buy the "flinch it to death to check it" mentality. (you seriously need to paraflinch it to kill it)

My experience regarding the rarity of Trick Room is solely based on experience against people at the top of the ladder. I dunno I feel if you go by a mentality of "assume it's CM until proven otherwise" you can't go wrong most of the time, and the very few times you might be wrong, you might lose a Pokemon, but in general I find TR has more counters/checks than the CM set, why else would almost everyone be using CM?
Calm mind is just easier to use. Trick Room is harder to use sure, but it isn't really inferior. It doesn't have any more checks because Rankurusu literally outspeeds the entire metagame. Sure its slightly less effective against Stall but it ends up dominating offensive teams. In fact, TR Rank has even LESS checks because opposing Psychic types get destroyed by Shadow Ball. Even Spiritomb (has a minuscule) chance of being beaten with Shadow Ball.

No don't you dare! xD But actually if anything deserves more discussion in this thread it's Sharpedo, I've been murdering with it, and don't get why no one else is using it.
People are sheep in general. They follow trends and don't dare to try out anything new. The same thing happened in gen IV, and the same thing will happen in gen V.

That's exactly my point...? You have option a, switch in a sweeper who can take a DM, and setup on the switch, or send in some fodder to die, then get your sweeper in for free, and again set up on the sworn. Latios may have taken down one of your pokemon, but with the right setuppers, he may have also handed you the match. I don't rely on any Latios staying in to DM again at -2; having a sweeper that survives that hit is helpful to guarantee the setup, but most times it's preferable if Latios switches out.
A pokemon isn't necessarily broken if it can maim every switchin; Slaking is NU despite awesome offensive (and defensive) power, because it creates a similar situation, giving the opponent a free turn to do whatever they want. Obviously Latios' case isn't as extreme as Slaking's, but the point is that you must look at the cost of his raw power rather than just assuming it's broken based on the power of Specs DM.
Do you not see a problem with that?!? Especially the part I bolded. Latios is nearly always guaranteeing a kill every time he switches in. Also you need to consider that not everyone runs setup sweepers on their team.

Very few pokemon can actually setup on -2 Latios
-Volcarana: SR weak / checked by a good portion of the metagame anyway
-CM Rank: I'll give you that one.
Thats it. Nothing else can setup because Latios is too strong.

Don't you dare compare Slaking to Latios. It was NU in gen IV for a reason, while Latios was Uber in gen IV for different reasons.
 
I think your team is just really well-suited to setting up on Latios, and you're just facing bad players. First of all, what on earth are you talking about regarding a "free switchin?" Any smart Latios player is going to switch out after that first Draco Meteor, not stick around to hit for a second time: even if it means finishing off the Pokemon you just hit, a smart Latios player knows it's worth conserving DM PP, and that putting yourself in a position with -4 Special Attack is just stupid.
That's exactly my point...? You have option a, switch in a sweeper who can take a DM, and setup on the switch, or send in some fodder to die, then get your sweeper in for free, and again set up on the sworn. Latios may have taken down one of your pokemon, but with the right setuppers, he may have also handed you the match. I don't rely on any Latios staying in to DM again at -2; having a sweeper that survives that hit is helpful to guarantee the setup, but most times it's preferable if Latios switches out.
A pokemon isn't necessarily broken if it can maim every switchin; Slaking is NU despite awesome offensive (and defensive) power, because it creates a similar situation, giving the opponent a free turn to do whatever they want. Obviously Latios' case isn't as extreme as Slaking's, but the point is that you must look at the cost of his raw power rather than just assuming it's broken based on the power of Specs DM.
 
Well everyone on your team can counter Rankurusu then its obvious you wouldn't have a problem with it. Only specially defensive Jirachi can beat Rankurusu because +1 Focus Blast does to much damage. I don't buy the "flinch it to death to check it" mentality.
I didn't say everyone can counter it :/
I said that everyone I use to counter it can switch in on any move in the CM set. That's just three Pokemon on my team. Also my Jirachi is 252 HP/216Atk/40Spd, Adamant. Focus Blast at +1 hurts, but between the 60% flinch and 70% accuracy on Focus Blast, good luck getting a hit in. Any time Reuniclus actually gets to use a move, it will be using Recover, unless the Jirachi user is incredibly unlucky. Without LO, Focus Blast is doing 40% on average, and with LO it's usually not even a 2HKO after Leftovers. This is not even considering all the Leftovers healing you'll be getting from the flinches. And if you want to increase your odds, just Thunder/TWave/Body Slam it. I don't get why you don't "buy it" can you at least try it before saying that?


Calm mind is signification easier to use. Trick Room is harder to use but it isn't really inferior. It doesn't have any more checks because Rankurusu literally outspeeds the entire metagame. Sure its slightly less effective against Stall but it ends up dominating offensive teams. In fact, TR Rank has even LESS checks because opposing Psychic types get destroyed by Shadow Ball. Even Spiritomb (has a minuscule) chance of being beaten with Shadow Ball.
I agree the set is definitely under-rated... I dunno if it became more popular I could maybe sympathize more with people who find it broken, but really, how is this guy any different from other powerful cleaners? These ones usually don't run Recover, so you can hit them pretty hard without worry of them recovering. Btw Parasect shuts this guy down completely.

That's exactly my point...? You have option a, switch in a sweeper who can take a DM, and setup on the switch, or send in some fodder to die, then get your sweeper in for free, and again set up on the sworn. Latios may have taken down one of your pokemon, but with the right setuppers, he may have also handed you the match. I don't rely on any Latios staying in to DM again at -2; having a sweeper that survives that hit is helpful to guarantee the setup, but most times it's preferable if Latios switches out. A pokemon isn't necessarily broken if it can maim every switchin; Slaking is NU despite awesome offensive (and defensive) power, because it creates a similar situation, giving the opponent a free turn to do whatever they want. Obviously Latios' case isn't as extreme as Slaking's, but the point is that you must look at the cost of his raw power rather than just assuming it's broken based on the power of Specs DM.
Okay yeah I was talking about Latios using Draco Meteor when you switch something into it to actually take the DM and survive, not when you send in death fodder. In the death fodder case sure your example works, but that's highly situational, almost always you'll be forced to switch something into DM very early in the match, and you usually don't have death fodder that early on. And even then, justifying something isn't broken by saying you can sac something to lessen the blow is a weak argument.

"Switch in a sweeper who can take a DM and setup on the switch." So, basically Scizor? Ttar usually isn't a sweeper nowadays, and no one uses Metagross. Please name another sweeper who can do this. We're talking about a full-powered DM here, not one from -2 Special Attack. And keep in mind that while against a wall that eats a DM, the Latios user should usually switch out and not stick around at -2 Special Attack, it might be prudent to just finish the sweeper off.

And we're only talking about the Latios user spamming that one attack. If you're smart enough to switch Scizor in on Latios, the Latios user is certainly smart enough to just Surf on the first turn.

EDIT: Sorry the for the double post, I figured someone would have posted in the mean time.
 

SJCrew

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I think your team is just really well-suited to setting up on Latios, and you're just facing bad players. First of all, what on earth are you talking about regarding a "free switchin?" Any smart Latios player is going to switch out after that first Draco Meteor, not stick around to hit for a second time: even if it means finishing off the Pokemon you just hit, a smart Latios player knows it's worth conserving DM PP, and that putting yourself in a position with -4 Special Attack is just stupid.
That makes no sense whatsoever. I'll go for the kill every time unless I know he has something that'll set up on Draco Meteor and 6-0 me because I have no counter for it. Other than that? They'll just bring in their Skarmory or Nattorei to set up entry hazards. Scizor with an SD, Jirachi with a Sub, etc.

But the common denominator between all of these is that they're stupidly easy to counter. I can't forsee a situation in which I'll regret wasting something on the other guy's team. If you don't have a counter for whatever is trying to set up on a -2 Latios (that's not a very big list, don't try to send in Blaziken or Breloom), you lost no matter what happens.

But this is BS anyway; as long as you don't have Pursuit, or your Pursuit user isn't healthy, I can just keep wailing on your team with Draco Meteor. It's really brainless.
 

Jibaku

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My opinion on this probably won't matter, but honestly, I have to agree with Aldaron here. Playing this metagame quite a bit lately, I do not believe that there are any suspects (Shell Break Gorebyss...).

Latios is seriously the most overrated "suspect" ever. Specs Draco Meteor isn't leaving as much dent as I would like it to (what with Specially defensive tar and steels being freaking everywhere. Not to mention Latios folds up pretty quickly thanks to its average defenses overall and Sandstorm vulnerability. What I find Latios most useful is leaving a bit of dent now and there, and Tricking then dying. -2 Draco Meteor can be set up on Doryuuzu/Volcarona/Reuniclus/Scizor on the sweeping side of things. Skarmory/Ferrothorn just sets up Spikes on it without a care (and both can absorb a full power DM as well) Course, I'm not saying Latios is bad. Latios is excellent (not any better than his sister though), but probably not close to being suspect worthy.

Reuniclus...I can see this thing being a suspect. It's super annoying to deal with, and I've good success sweeping with it. However, my standards for dealing with threats differ from you all.

Excadrill is still strong, but not as deadly as it was in early BW where no one sorted out checks for this thing. Nowadays, it has to face a lot of annoying things, including Gliscor, Skarmory, Azumarill, Noobushin, Rotom-W, Balloon things, Politoed and Drizzle in general, and Ninetales to an extent. Dory is also fairly difficult to set up (though I have had decent success with Trick Latios -> Doryuuzu).


/me awaits flames
 

PK Gaming

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I didn't say everyone can counter it :/
I said that everyone I use to counter it can switch in on any move in the CM set. That's just three Pokemon on my team. Also my Jirachi is 252 HP/216Atk/40Spd, Adamant. Focus Blast at +1 hurts, but between the 60% flinch and 70% accuracy on Focus Blast, good luck getting a hit in. Any time Reuniclus actually gets to use a move, it will be using Recover, unless the Jirachi user is incredibly unlucky. Without LO, Focus Blast is doing 40% on average, and with LO it's usually not even a 2HKO after Leftovers. This is not even considering all the Leftovers healing you'll be getting from the flinches. And if you want to increase your odds, just Thunder/TWave/Body Slam it. I don't get why you don't "buy it" can you at least try it before saying that?
Well if you're running attack ev's that definitely changes things. You still need to watch out for Focus Blast once in a while since it deals: 62.1% - 73.3% to Jirachi. Also Trick Room 2HKOes with Focus Blast (although its unlikely) you should still watch out. Also you're running +3 Pokemon to check 1 Pokemon. What if you want to build another team? You need to constantly use those checks or you get destroyed by Rankurusu.

I already mentioned that Jirachi with Body Slam beats Rankurusu 1 on 1.

I agree the set is definitely under-rated... I dunno if it became more popular I could maybe sympathize more with people who find it broken, but really, how is this guy any different from other powerful cleaners? These ones usually don't run Recover, so you can hit them pretty hard without worry of them recovering. Btw Parasect shuts this guy down completely.
How? LO Psychic deals (80.6% - 94.8%) to 252/0 Parasect.
I even calculated LO Psychic VS 252HP/252SpD Parasect with a +SpD nature. (54.9% - 65.1%) Which is still a 2HKO. Meanwhile Parasect can't OHKO you with X-scissor, and you only really fear spore.

Edit: Lol Jibaku, Gorebyss will start being common when some hot-shot battler establishes as a threat. I'm actually terrified of Gorebyss and I'm glad its uncommon.
 
I've found Calm Mind + Wish Jirachi to be a great check to Reuniclus.

Jirachi@Leftovers
Bold; 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe

Wish
Calm Mind
Psycho Shock
Thunderbolt

Jirachi wins 1 on 1 against Reuniclus as it can hit it on the lower defense with Psycho Shock once the two of them have reached +6, and takes minimal damage from Reuniclus' moves, and Reuniclus can't really do the same because of Jirachi's defensive investment and 4x resistance.

Jirachi will definitely want support in the form of a ground resist, however, as there are various ground-type threats around (Excadrill, Garchomp, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Landorus). Otherwise, it serves as a great dragon resist, general bulk, and can provide Wish support for a time.
 
Specially defensive T-Tar and steels are everywhere because of Latios. If you don't have them, you lose. There's little variation and it's not enjoyable.
 
That makes no sense whatsoever. I'll go for the kill every time unless I know he has something that'll set up on Draco Meteor and 6-0 me because I have no counter for it. Other than that? They'll just bring in their Skarmory or Nattorei to set up entry hazards. Scizor with an SD, Jirachi with a Sub, etc.
Okay well maybe I have to spell everything out...sure if I'm up against a full-out stall team, or a team with no set-up threats to Latios, I'd just finish the Pokemon off. I assumed it was a given that you'd do a preliminary check through team preview to see if there are any dangers to staying in on - 2 Special Attack.

Well if you're running attack ev's that definitely changes things. You still need to watch out for Focus Blast once in a while since it deals: 62.1% - 73.3% to Jirachi. Also Trick Room 2HKOes with Focus Blast (although its unlikely) you should still watch out. Also you're running +3 Pokemon to check 1 Pokemon. What if you want to build another team? You need to constantly use those checks or you get destroyed by Rankurusu.
Just re-checked the Focus Blast calc, and +1 LO Focus Blast is doing 50 - 59%, and that's max HP with no special defense. So I'm confused about your 62 - 73 calc. Yeah Jirachi doesn't work against TR sets (see below for Parasect). And no I'm not running all three to check Reuniclus, I run them for other reasons. I'd be quite comfortable running only Jirachi and ditching the other two if that were the case. Yes I'd lose to the occasional TR set with Jirachi, but my overall win/lose record would be pretty much the same.

How? LO Psychic deals (80.6% - 94.8%) to 252/0 Parasect.
I even calculated LO Psychic VS 252HP/252SpD Parasect with a +SpD nature. (54.9% - 65.1%) Which is still a 2HKO. Meanwhile Parasect can't OHKO you with X-scissor, and you only really fear spore.
I run 252 HP, something like 96 SpD and Calm, and Psychic does something like 70%. Here's how it works. I switch in while they TR, they attack, I Spore. Of course now you're gonna tell me you switch to something else to take the Spore. But then I can just sub while you switch back to Reuniclus, and X-Scissor twice for the kill...trust me it works.
 

alamaster

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Wow, I'm surprised people still want so many pokemon banned...I'm leaning towards No Suspects so far. The pokemon I believe to be Suspect (Wobb, Deo-s) are rarely used so yeah...don't have to worry about them much.
 

PK Gaming

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Just re-checked the Focus Blast calc, and +1 LO Focus Blast is doing 50 - 59%, and that's max HP with no special defense. So I'm confused about your 62 - 73 calc. Yeah Jirachi doesn't work against TR sets (see below for Parasect). And no I'm not running all three to check Reuniclus, I run them for other reasons. I'd be quite comfortable running only Jirachi and ditching the other two if that were the case. Yes I'd lose to the occasional TR set with Jirachi, but my overall win/lose record would be pretty much the same.
Yeah that was a mistake of mine, I didn't drop Alakazam's special attacking EV's (I use him as a base) Also you didn't address my previous point. You're running +3 pokemon to check Rankurusu. Have you considered making a different team? Can you honestly tell me your new team wouldn't be the same as your current one with slight modifications? This is why I hate Rankurusu, its incredibly difficult to counter AND it limits teambuilding.


I run 252 HP, something like 96 SpD and Calm, and Psychic does something like 70%. Here's how it works. I switch in while they TR, they attack, I Spore. Of course now you're gonna tell me you switch to something else to take the Spore. But then I can just sub while you switch back to Reuniclus, and X-Scissor twice for the kill...trust me it works.
Or how about I switch Gliscor (toxic) into your spore, taunt and force your Parasect out....................... and thats how I beat your team. With that logic anything with a sleep move can counter Rankurusu. ~_~ You shouldn't always use your own experiences to convey a point you know...

Parasect isn't a counter it takes (65.1% - 76.9%) from LO Psychic. So that along with Stealth Rock leaves him crippled. Its a check at best.
 

alamaster

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If you EV Parasect to have 0 IV Speed - Nature it has a 50% shot of going first to Spore since they share the same base speed.
 
Yeah that was a mistake of mine, I didn't drop Alakazam's special attacking EV's (I use him as a base) Also you didn't address my previous point. You're running +3 pokemon to check Rankurusu. Have you considered making a different team? Can you honestly tell me your new team wouldn't be the same as your current one with slight modifications?
I don't like making new teams when I have one that works well, it's just a waste of time I find as every team has a learning curve. On an old team of mine I didn't have Jirachi and didn't have Encore on Politoed. I relied solely on Parasect, and yes it was definitely harder but I still qualified for voting.


Or how about I switch (toxiced) Gliscor into your spore, taunt and force your Parasect out... and thats how I beat your team. With that logic anything with a sleep move can counter Rankurusu. ~_~ You shouldn't always use your own experiences to convey a point you know...

Parasect isn't a counter it takes (65.1% - 76.9%) from LO Psychic. So that along with Stealth Rock leaves him crippled. Its a check at best.
Okay well if we've gotten to the point where we're hypothesizing entire teams this argument has become quite pointless, I hope you'll agree. And no not anything with a sleep move is a counter; Breloom can't Spore a TR version, and most everything else has shaky accuracy and risks dying to Psychic. I really don't want to waste time theorymoning about whether Parasect is a counter. From my experience it fits the criteria of a counter much more than that of a check, and if you don't buy that then fine, all I can say is, actually try it out. Realistically, no Reuniclus has ever switched out of Parasect once it sets up TR, as it always assumes it can OHKO with Psychic, or that it's worth eating the Spore for the severe damage. And lol at SR, assuming it's even up; I switch in on TR, and I'm back at 94% health at the end of the turn. Please just try it out before shutting it down.
 

PK Gaming

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I don't like making new teams when I have one that works well, it's just a waste of time I find as every team has a learning curve. On an old team of mine I didn't have Jirachi and didn't have Encore on Politoed. I relied solely on Parasect, and yes it was definitely harder but I still qualified for voting.
Ok that makes sense. As long as your team does fine against Rankurusu then its clearly not broken. Nevermind trying out something different, 1 team, to rule them all.

From my experience it fits the criteria of a counter much more than that of a check, and if you don't buy that then fine, all I can say is, actually try it out. Realistically, no Reuniclus has ever switched out of Parasect once it sets up TR, as it always assumes it can OHKO with Psychic, or that it's worth eating the Spore for the severe damage. And lol at SR, assuming it's even up; I switch in on TR, and I'm back at 94% health at the end of the turn. Please just try it out before shutting it down.
Not it doesn't. A counter should be able to switch in comfortably and always force out a Pokemon. Key word being always.
-If sleep clause is in effect Parasect loses.
-If Parasect has taken residual damage it loses

Also you can't assume you'll switch in while rain is up. If you switch into SR while the sand is up, you actually lose period.
 

Jibaku

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Specially defensive T-Tar and steels are everywhere because of Latios. If you don't have them, you lose. There's little variation and it's not enjoyable.
Do you really think that these Pokemon are used solely because of Latios?

SpDef Tar is also used to set up SR with ease, switch into Politoed if needed, and survive +1 Focus Blast from defensive CM Reuniclus, along with being a special tank in general.

Ferrothorn is used a lot because it's a good Pokemon in its own right and I hope I don't have to explain to you why it's not common because of Latios

Skarmory is used quite a bit due to well...being an awesome physical wall in a physically dominated metagame. Garchomp/Dory/Randorosu etc are checked by Skarmory quite handily and walling DM from Latios is only a bonus (granted, you need SDef EVs but that's not a big sacrifice considering Skarmory's resistances and high Def)

Jirachi handles Reuniclus and is a great Pokemon in general...

Scizor is a great utility and/or a beastly sweeper. It also helps handle Reuniclus (and this is a far bigger reason than Latios to use Scizor)

Excadrill is used a lot because its Doryuuzu 9.9

Admittedly, Latios is part of the reason why these Pokemon are around, but they're generally used for something else.

Also, "if you don't have x group of Pokemon, you lose" argument becomes less effective the more and natural ways said Pokemon can be dealt. I find these Pokemon, along with revengers, to be plenty as far as stopping Latios goes.
 

Ace Emerald

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Another good check/counter to rank that I've found is metagross. I'm using max health max attack shucca berry, and it does well against rank with a powerful physical STAB with a chance to raise attack. As a side note, shuca gross is amazing. I'm using shuca over balloon becuase I like gross to take hits, and ground sweepers will attack with STAB while metagross takes the neutralized hit like a beast.
 
Not it doesn't. A counter should be able to switch in comfortably and always force out a Pokemon. Key word being always.
-If sleep clause is in effect Parasect loses.
-If Parasect has taken residual damage it loses

Also you can't assume you'll switch in while rain is up. If you switch into SR while the sand is up, you actually lose period.
I'm sorry, but that definition of counter makes absolutely so many things left without counters, I must refute. Regardless of whether or not you believe a pokemon having no counters means it is broken, which is a whole other issue, very few pokes can always switch in on any move of an opposing poke and KO it if it stays in. There are just too many factors in play. Hazard damage plays a big role in that, LO recoil, choiced moves, and so many other factors effect a poke's ability to switch in and KO/force it out. Besides these factors there are at least 3 (or two, depending on how you would group them) factors that above all determine a poke's ability to be countered, prediction (or predictability, to rephrase), crits, and accuracy.

Prediction is very difficult to quantify, yet the overall level of predictability of pokes is frequently qualifiable, and very important to the ability of that poke to do its job well, or even to the point of being broken. Many sets in the past were introduced at a time of the meta being very centralized aaround a few things, and were able to dominate because people did not see them coming. To offer an example, Sub+T-wave Jirachi was incredibly irritating and useful when it was pioneered, yet teams eventually learned of its prowess and its ubiquity, and it became far too countered to be the absolute domination machine it was (much like Scizor of Gen I as well). Certain sets are very predictable, Doryuuzu, who runs the same set so often most teams can easily predict what he will do given a free turn, thus making him less of a monster than he was previously. This is a very large factor in his continued stay in OU, as few teams consistently struggle with him anymore, as they are usually well prepared for his intended rampage.

Following predictability, I see hax and accuracy as two enormous factors in the level of brokenness in a poke. These factors can frequently either contribute or detract from the brokenness of a poke. Things like CM Reuniclus aren't completely unbeatable because they rely on both meh coverage (which isn't really part of this idea, but important to note) and a 70% accuracy move to beat one of its most feared potential counters, CB Tar. Running no SpA, Focus Blast will never OHKO a max HP T-tar (which is the most common CB set), and the likelihood of striking twice with Focus Miss is 49%, far from a reliable win. The list of pokes which Reuniclus needs this amount of luck to win against is longer than one might imagine, and it stands a very convincing sign of Reuniclus's counter-ability. On this same note, things that can only counter another poke with a low-accuracy move are also far from perfect counters, as they require luck to win. On the idea of crits, they affect both counters and the countees, and serve only to remind us all that the concept of a perfect counter can never truly exist in practice.
As for the other factors, such as residual damage and choiced pokes, I will only speak briefly, as they are more clear and easy to understand. Setting up stealth rocks is nearly 99% of the time a good thing for teams to do. Stealth rock inhibits opposing sweepers, helps net KOs, allows for phazing to rack up damage, and only takes a single turn to set up. As for Spikes, they are also incredibly useful, but are more limited in distribution and take arguably too much time to set up if you are not running stall. For these reasons, Stealth Rock is justifiably ubiquitous, and should be considered in most all cases when discussing the brokenness of a poke. When we are referring to a poke like SpecsTios or Scarfers, who's job is to switch in and out and rack up damage, hazards are a very important part of discussion, as it is rarely possible to entirely stop one's opponent from setting up stealth rock at least once. For those kinds of pokes, hazards contribute greatly to their counter-ability, as their "counters" need only to be able to do a certain amount of damage to counter them the majority of the time. Choiced pokes are also part of this category, but should be considered and debated differently for a few reasons. For obvious reasons, forcing out choiced pokes is far easier than forcing out something like LO Starmie (in Gen IV, that is), and thusly hazards are a bigger factor. But having pokes choiced brings another issue into play, the idea of predictability. When something is not locked into a move, it can't always be switched into even on a resist. I would offer Ludicolo as an example for this. Nattorei running no SpD at all can switch into Giga Drains from Ludi all day, but can do little to him and will be 2HKOd at the very least by Focus Blast (which also has an accuracy problem, but that is largely inconsequential in this case). For this reason, switching in Nat only serves to accumulate LO damage which, despite not being necessarily a bad thing, means it in no way can counter Ludi. But for Choiced pokes, prediction is more of an issue, for if your opponent predicts your move correctly and switches out to an appropriate counter, if needed, you have undoubtedly given them 1 free turn to do whatever they wish to harm your team, which is the last thing any player ever wants to do. As for LO damage, that is even more assured than hazards, and should be considered when contemplating the brokenness of a poke, for if a poke can switch in on 3 of the opponents 4 attacks, and then revenge them when they are at 90% health, I truly think that poke should be considered a counter.

For all those tl;dr folk who simply glanced over this, I would hope you at least read this. One can rarely perfectly match up against any other poke, and the concept of a counter should not be derived from that. A counter should be determined from the most likely situation one would find himself in against a particular threat, taking in account all factors of success and of failure. I really do hope you all read this, so that we may further advance the discussion of the definition of a counter and be able to debate on identical terms.
 
-2 252SpA+ Specs DM from Latios to, lets say, Blaziken, does enough so that it'll get one turn of damage on something and then die (assuming Life Orb Blaziken).

This is ignoring the fact that Specs isn't the only thing Latios can run. In fact its versatility makes it very dangerous in itself.
Thing is, if you are running a specs latios you would want max speed.
If he doesn't have that then a lot of pokemon outspeed him.
 
What have people been thinking about Randorusu? I've found that it takes big chunks out of lots of things, sure now to KO you have to hit for 75% initially, but that's not too hard, I think that he's going to be rather central to this meta.
 
May I just point out, Latios does have the perfectly acceptable option of running a White Herb. This loses some initial hitting power, but enables Latios to fire TWO Draco Meteors in a single switch-in...

Or, fire off a Draco Meteor, and remain at full power. Nattorei isn't that smug when it takes a DM, only to eat HP Fire at +0.

Also, there's more to Latios than just spamming DMs everywhere. Calm Mind, Trick, Life Orb. It can do all of these. And they're all devastateing in their own rights.

Besides, out of all of those pokemon that can switch in on Draco Meteor, only two can do anything to stop Latios from just spamming another one later, Tyranitar and Scizor. The latter dosen't take too kindly to DM's even with his resistance, and the former disrupts some teams if he is used on them, such as Rain, Hail, or Sun teams.

Jirachi, Nattorei, Heatran, Emploeon [Who can set up as Latios leaves], Dory, and Metagross [When was the last time you saw a Persuit Metagross?] all get worn down by repeated Draco Meteors.

And, most smart players of Latios will be able to counter the pokemon who can set up after a Draco Meteor. Or, you know, use Team Preveiw so that they can predict say, Scizor coming in, and Surf/HP Fire it instead? Or carry Azumarill to force Dory out? If you can check the Steels and Tyranitar, you're golden.

Oh, and Magnezone sends his regards to many of Latios' checks.
 
So Latios is now broken because team support and prediction help you remove his checks?

All of the steels you listed are perfectly viable in their own right, and White Herb Latios loses out on quite a bit of power over the course of the match without the benefits of Scarf.

Jirachi can do pretty much anything it wants as we've seen, and I've been running Wish / Protect / Doom Desire / U-Turn with Max HP / Max SpA Modest to great effect. Few things will like taking a 210 base power attack, and Jirachi can attack while healing itself with wish all in the same turn. Other Jirachi will Thunder Wave the switch / throw up rocks / set up CM / etc.

Once Ferrothorn sees White Herb, it will switch out (and non-Specs Latios' DM isn't nearly as threatening if they manage to predict), and Latios will be significantly weaker for the rest of the match. For Specs, it can Leech Seed / Thunder Wave / Spike as Latios switches out of its weakened DM.

Heatran is Heatran and will nuke something with Fire Blast or it can SubToxic a switch-in.

I personally am not switching Dory into Latios, but Metagross fares well, and CB is probably its most effective set this time around. MM / EQ / Ice Punch / Bullet Punch is great, but if you have more need of Pursuit, just toss it over Bullet Punch and Latios is in for some issues.

And while CM, Trick, Scarf, and LO are things Latios can do, you don't see anyone complaining about much other than the Specs set, to be honest. We've nominated it twice and both times it failed to reach even a simple majority both times. It can be dealt with without going to extreme measures this gen, it's just a matter of using the tools available.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
I love how some of you always assume that the Latios user is the smarter player on the ladder, always capable of predicting their opponent and use the right move to hit the switch in. Fortunately, theorymon apart, not everybody has the psychic powers to read their opponent's mind and act accordingly with their Latios.

What if your opponent is smarter than you and doesn't switch in the Pokemon you expect they to switch? Say you come in on Roobushin, "predict" Scizor coming in and use surf while your opponent "outpredicts" you and, instead of switching, just paybacks you to hell? In this case you'll have just lost your Latios without killing a single Pokemon. You should keep in mind that team preview works for both you and your opponent, so it's not always safe to assume which Pokemon they will go to when facing Latios. A great battler of the past Generation used to say that prediction is just guessing, and I completely agree with him. Don't build arguments based upon "prediction" as they're not going to provide any proof.

Also, as others have said, spamming draco meteor is not as easy or safe as you make it to be, many Pokemon can set up on a -2 or, even better, -4 Latios, your opponent can just send in some death fodder Pokemon and then set up their sweeper on Latios: SD Scizor and Lucario, Excadrill, Terakion (especially in sandstorm) and many others just love to set up swords dances or rock polishes on a -2 SpA Latios and proceed to sweep the opponent.

In short: Latios is a top OU Pokemon, but not really broken in my opinion.
 
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