np: RU Stage 5 - Dark Side of the Moon

[alexwolf]

How exactly are you going to prevent pokes such as Uxie and all the Prankster users from setting up Rain Dance? I know that there are a few ways but don't make it seem like setting up Rain Dance is as difficult as getting the setup turn that will allow your sweeper to sweep. Sweepers are frail and have uninvested defenses that's why they can't easily find set-up oportunites, but the weather setters have infinitely more oportunites to do so...

I have played against many rain and sun teams and preventing them from setting the weather up multiple times is incredibly difficult.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Setting up Rain itself isn't the issue, I don't think anyone would argue that it's difficult to set up a weather, but if you allow both the weather to be set up, as well as Omastar to get off a Shell Smash, without having some method of dealing with it, that's just foolhardy playing. Something like a CB Durant for instance is quite effective at preventing rain setters from setting up, pranksters excepted, while a whole plethora of offensive Pokemon can ensure that Omastar won't set up, especially given the noticeable special shift in the present metagame. Pokemon like the previously mentioned Mane trig and Sceptile carry super effective STAB options while something like Feraligatr can hit Omastar with a combination of double Stabbed Waterfall and Aqua Jet. Offensive teams should have no shortage of Pokemon that can prevent additional set up in, that which applies to Omastar also holding true for Kabutops, Qwilfish, and other Rain sweepers that utilize set up moves. As for defensive teams, Rain teams should be kept in mind when building a team, although the only Pokemon I would entrust as a some Rain check is Ferroseed, with Leexh Seed, Protect and Thunder Wave countering standard Rain fairly well.

 

[alexwolf]

While what you say it is true, it holds true for the rain user also. If you are using a rain team with omastar, the team should be built to give to Omastar as many set-up oportunites as possible. For example you can threaten to sweep with another sweeper, whos counters/checks are setup fodder for Omastar. Also note that with White Herb, and in rain Omastar has amazing physical bulk , since you can easily invest in HP, which means that the only physical attacks that will be bringing him down are STABed Fighting and Ground moves and Grass moves.

For example max HP Omastar can setup on Bulk Up Gallade, non HP Grass Entei, Physical Sharpedo, Durant (both LO and CB), SD Kabutops, LO Drapion, LO Aero without Taunt and more. Note that i am only mentioning offensive mons. If we include walls and stuff the list becomes huge. Omastar can definitely find set-up oportunities, if played well, even against very offensive teams.

Finally while Ferroseed is a good stop to individual rain sweepers, it is by no means a counter to standard rain teams. The best it can do is hold back one of their sweepers and then get swept by another since Leech Seed can only take you so far.

 

[sheniqua]

I feel like Texas summed up pretty perfectly why omastar doesn't dominate the metagame. And if for some reason you can't keep letting omastar set up, which shouldn't happen, Specially Defensive Ludicolo works like a charm!
Only takes 41.2-48.35% from a +2 icebeam. Even if there are hazards, you can protect to get back the hp from rain dish and lefties. Then use giga drain or whatever.

 

[spuds4ever]

Omastar is not really a problem. Anything with priority kills it and it still has some hard counters like specially defensive ferroseed or CB adamant Hitmonchan, who's mach punch won't be appreciated. Rain is very easily set up, I must say, with loads of stuff setting it up with ease. The problem is, I think, is the lack of non-water type abusers of it. Grass types and electrics are in bountiful supply in RU and many are fast enough to out-speed many SSers with a scarf.

 

[Heysup]

While what you say it is true, it holds true for the rain user also. If you are using a rain team with omastar, the team should be built to give to Omastar as many set-up oportunites as possible. For example you can threaten to sweep with another sweeper, whos counters/checks are setup fodder for Omastar. Also note that with White Herb, and in rain Omastar has amazing physical bulk , since you can easily invest in HP, which means that the only physical attacks that will be bringing him down are STABed Fighting and Ground moves and Grass moves.

For example max HP Omastar can setup on Bulk Up Gallade, non HP Grass Entei, Physical Sharpedo, Durant (both LO and CB), SD Kabutops, LO Drapion, LO Aero without Taunt and more. Note that i am only mentioning offensive mons. If we include walls and stuff the list becomes huge. Omastar can definitely find set-up oportunities, if played well, even against very offensive teams.

If you don't carry any checks for a Rain Dance sweeper then how do you expect to beat a Rain Dance sweeper? If you can revenge kill Kabutops you can revenge kill Omastar. It's actually harder to do the former, since he has priority. I can't believe at this stage someone wouldn't be carrying HP Grass or one of Honchkrow, Absol, Skuntank, etc. or something with priority (not counting CB Entei).

Also physical Sharpedo 2HKOes Waterfall and Aqua Jet in the Rain. Out of the rain, Sharpedo will outpace Omastar anyway assuming it comes into the situation you presented.

 

[alexwolf]

I feel like Texas summed up pretty perfectly why omastar doesn't dominate the metagame. And if for some reason you can't keep letting omastar set up, which shouldn't happen, Specially Defensive Ludicolo works like a charm!
Only takes 41.2-48.35% from a +2 icebeam. Even if there are hazards, you can protect to get back the hp from rain dish and lefties. Then use giga drain or whatever.

Pretty good suggestion actually!

Omastar is not really a problem. Anything with priority kills it and it still has some hard counters like specially defensive ferroseed or CB adamant Hitmonchan, who's mach punch won't be appreciated. Rain is very easily set up, I must say, with loads of stuff setting it up with ease. The problem is, I think, is the lack of non-water type abusers of it. Grass types and electrics are in bountiful supply in RU and many are fast enough to out-speed many SSers with a scarf.

Priority doesn't even move him. The stronger priority users struggle to do more than 50% to Omastar with 0 HP. Also note that while Ferroseed can neuter Omastar, it cannot kill him which means that Omastar can easily take Ferroseed down with him leaving the way open for another rain sweeper. Also CB Hitmonchan is not a counter. It cannot switch-in and deals 65.95 - 77.3, which means that Omastar must lose at least ~30% before you attempt to revenge kill him.
Although some SSers can be outsped by some scarfers you can never be sure. For example Scarf Galvantula outspeeds Adamant Kabutops in rain by 1 point, but how are you going to know that it is not Jolly or that it doesn't carry Aqua Jet? Every single of the best rain sweepers, can leave you guessing about it's nature,moveset etc, while it destroys your team.

If you don't carry any checks for a Rain Dance sweeper then how do you expect to beat a Rain Dance sweeper? If you can revenge kill Kabutops you can revenge kill Omastar. It's actually harder to do the former, since he has priority. I can't believe at this stage someone wouldn't be carrying HP Grass or one of Honchkrow, Absol, Skuntank, etc. or something with priority (not counting CB Entei).

Also physical Sharpedo 2HKOes Waterfall and Aqua Jet in the Rain. Out of the rain, Sharpedo will outpace Omastar anyway assuming it comes into the situation you presented.

Of 'course you should carry checks, but the point is that those checks are easily bypassed with simple moveset or nature adjustments (f.e. Aqua Jet on Kabutops to kill faster Scarfers or Jolly to outspeed everything up to Scarf + Natured 120s). Again priority many times is not enough against the dominant rain sweepers (Aqua Jet murders Krow and Hitmonchan at +2 and Omastar easily shruggs off any priority with little bulk investement). Finally not all Sharpedos carry Aqua Jet.

 

[DittoCrow]

I think you're making it seem easier than it looks to set up with these Pokemon. You need at least 2 turns to set up rain and a boosting move (3 if your sweeper doesn't carry Rain Dance). This gives the opponent time to send in a counter/check. I've noticed most team have at least 1 priority user, if not 2, and this alone keeps offensive teams in check. Also Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock will hinder the Pokemon's survivability and you won't really have time to spin.

It doesn't matter if you EV the Pokemon to survive hits because it will lose out on another important stat. Omastar only has base 55 speed. Maybe I'll be convinced if someone provide a specific EV spread that allows it to take hits AND out-speed every non-scarfed Pokemon after a Shell Smash.

Keep in mind that Omastar/Kabutops aren't as fierce before they set up. This strategy takes too long to set up the ideal conditions for a sweep. You need to remove hazards, set up rain, and use the boosting move, all while checking common threats. It's not like these rain sweepers can set up on the entire metagame either. I'll start testing rain because there might be an invincible strategy out there, though it's not likely.

 

[spuds4ever]

@Alexwolf. If you let omastar set up with no health lost, you're probably really silly.
CB hitmonchan actually does 81-96% with a cb mach punch when omastar is at -1 so you actually only need one turn of life orb recoil and SR and maybe a layer of spikes.
Max sp. def ferroseed can easily out-stall omastar. Leech seed and protect let him get back lots of HP each turn because of his small HP stat and omastar is still very vulnerable to bullet seed.

 

[Heysup]

Of 'course you should carry checks, but the point is that those checks are easily bypassed with simple moveset or nature adjustments (f.e. Aqua Jet on Kabutops to kill faster Scarfers or Jolly to outspeed everything up to Scarf + Natured 120s). Again priority many times is not enough against the dominant rain sweepers (Aqua Jet murders Krow and Hitmonchan at +2 and Omastar easily shruggs off any priority with little bulk investement). Finally not all Sharpedos carry Aqua Jet.

No they really aren't. Lots of checks (like the ones pointed out) deal with both of them regardless of the set. Others you can specialize to bypass but that limits your overall effectiveness by a large amount because the more defensive you are, the more counters you'll have (as opposed to checks).

Omastar still takes lots from priority, defensive investment won't do too much:

Honchkrow LO Sucker Punch: 53.19 - 62.76%
Absol LO Sucker Punch: Slightly more
Skuntank LO Sucker Punch: 43.61 - 51.41%
Hitmonlee LO Mach Punch: 51.77 - 61.7% (Sucker Punch: 34.39 - 40.78%)
Hitmonchan LO Mach Punch: 56.02 - 66.66%

I think you get the point. If you don't OHKO it while setting up, which you probably should, you can easily knock it the fuck out with common priority users.

 

[alexwolf]

Whatever. Since quoting everyone and continuing this discussion will be pointless, i am going to try my ideas on the ladder, and come here to talk about the results.

 

[Double01]

Rain can be effective but even my team doesn't get destroyed by rain teams. Considering I have no form of priority on my team and I run a very HO team then rain should just run through me. But that has not been the case even though they do give me trouble a really good player hasn't made a good enough rain team to get up to 1200+. With no priority on my team I have ways of stalling out the rain with sharpedo or set up with my own guys while they have to set up rain. Once someone makes a team that ladders high using rain then it's not to much of a factor in the Meta.

 

[spuds4ever]

Hopefully I'll be changing that >:). Be seeing you on the ladder mate :).

 

[hamiltonion]

Rain can be effective but even my team doesn't get destroyed by rain teams. Considering I have no form of priority on my team and I run a very HO team then rain should just run through me. But that has not been the case even though they do give me trouble a really good player hasn't made a good enough rain team to get up to 1200+. With no priority on my team I have ways of stalling out the rain with sharpedo or set up with my own guys while they have to set up rain. Once someone makes a team that ladders high using rain then it's not to much of a factor in the Meta.

Your logic is quite flawed. Just how do you stall out rain with a Pokemon which can barely take a light tap ? Also what exactly is setting up before a Ludicolo or Omastar ? Also your last sentence contradicts your general statement where you say that Rain isnt good since no has made a team around it to get to 1200. Keep in mind, I'm not glorifying rain, yes it is an effective and efficient weather but it does have its fair share of checks like any other team or battle style.

 

[D4RR3N]

Your logic is quite flawed. Just how do you stall out rain with a Pokemon which can barely take a light tap ? Also what exactly is setting up before a Ludicolo or Omastar ? Also your last sentence contradicts your general statement where you say that Rain isnt good since no has made a team around it to get to 1200. Keep in mind, I'm not glorifying rain, yes it is an effective and efficient weather but it does have its fair share of checks like any other team or battle style.

I believe what he meant was, he can switch around to stall out rd turns, while also having protect on sharpedo to makes things even easier. But yeah, Rain is really good in the current metagame. Anyways, has anyone been using Sunny day teams with moderate success?

 

[spuds4ever]

I believe what he meant was, he can switch around to stall out rd turns, while also having protect on sharpedo to makes things even easier. But yeah, Rain is really good in the current metagame. Anyways, has anyone been using Sunny day teams with moderate success?

I haven't seen any around but theroetically, they could do better than rain teams, with some good abusers and growth, mixtreebel could be really hard to stop without sucker punch not to mention lilligant who will be able to fire off solarbeams and sleep powders without anything stopping her.

 

[DittoCrow]

Weather isn't really good in RU imo. That fact that it's not permanent makes it average. Sun is pretty good because Victreebel has no counters and resists the top 2 priority moves.

Anyways, I've been testing a SpDef Ludicolo that Sheniqua mentioned. It's actually pretty good, even against non-rain teams! Here's what I use:

Ludicolo (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Leech Seed
- Scald
- Protect

Good for forcing switches with Leech Seed. Add Giga Drain and Protect and Ludicolo has some decent recovery.

-

Pro tip: Use Mandibuzz

 

[complete legitimacy]

Has Trick Room Nasty Plot Cofagrigus always been this good? I'm struggling to find any good checks to it. One thing that comes to mind is Sharpedo; it's fast with STAB Crunch. However, Trick Room renders that useless. In addition, Cofagrigus is bulky as hell, so it can take anything and retaliate. Another thing that comes to mind is Mandibuzz, which I never see at all. In theory, it can use Taunt to stop it from setting up, Toxic it to give it a time limit, and phaze it with Whirlwind. However, using Whirlwind leaves you Taunt bait.

Cofagrigus gets perfect coverage with just two moves. Normal-type special walls like Clefable and Munchlax eventually stop liking to take +6 HP Fightings. The fact that it's best counter is stopped by many of the top special attackers in the tier (Lilligant, Manectric, Omastar, Rotom) is really no help to it. Slowking is a better choice than Mandibuzz in nearly every situation for its superior defensive typing, better attacking options, and Regenerator.

Is Spiritomb even a counter to it? I don't think so. Sucker Punch is Spiritomb's strongest move against Cofagrigus. Never mind the fact that Cofagrigus outspeeds under Trick Room.

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252/0 Cofagrigus= 78.222814%-92.026841%

The Calm Mind set doesn't do anything to Cofagrigus either. Spiritomb will never OHKO at +1, and isn't even guaranteed to at +2.

0 Sp. Atk +1 Bold Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252/4 Cofagrigus= 73.138284%-86.045041%

However, Spiritomb can't switch in at all, even with Trick Room up. It is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes.

252 Sp. Atk +2 Quiet Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252/4 Spiritomb= 71.466442%-84.078167%

As you can see, Cofagrigus is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and I think it should at least be put up for suspect and voted on by the next RU Council.

 

[alexwolf]

Has Trick Room Nasty Plot Cofagrigus always been this good? I'm struggling to find any good checks to it. One thing that comes to mind is Sharpedo; it's fast with STAB Crunch. However, Trick Room renders that useless. In addition, Cofagrigus is bulky as hell, so it can take anything and retaliate. Another thing that comes to mind is Mandibuzz, which I never see at all. In theory, it can use Taunt to stop it from setting up, Toxic it to give it a time limit, and phaze it with Whirlwind. However, using Whirlwind leaves you Taunt bait.

Cofagrigus gets perfect coverage with just two moves. Normal-type special walls like Clefable and Munchlax eventually stop liking to take +6 HP Fightings. The fact that it's best counter is stopped by many of the top special attackers in the tier (Lilligant, Manectric, Omastar, Rotom) is really no help to it. Slowking is a better choice than Mandibuzz in nearly every situation for its superior defensive typing, better attacking options, and Regenerator.

Is Spiritomb even a counter to it? I don't think so. Sucker Punch is Spiritomb's strongest move against Cofagrigus. Never mind the fact that Cofagrigus outspeeds under Trick Room.

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252/0 Cofagrigus= 78.222814%-92.026841%

The Calm Mind set doesn't do anything to Cofagrigus either. Spiritomb will never OHKO at +1, and isn't even guaranteed to at +2.

0 Sp. Atk +1 Bold Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252/4 Cofagrigus= 73.138284%-86.045041%

However, Spiritomb can't switch in at all, even with Trick Room up. It is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes.

252 Sp. Atk +2 Quiet Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252/4 Spiritomb= 71.466442%-84.078167%

As you can see, Cofagrigus is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and I think it should at least be put up for suspect and voted on by the next RU Council.

As you already said, Mandibuzz is a full stop to Cofagrigus. It walls badly the TR + Nasty Plot set, while Taunting any other set and eventually stalling it out. Specially Defensive Drapion also easily stops it, while setting up T-Spikes in its face and phazing you out with WW. Munchlax takes everything easily and phazes you out. Honchkrow also deals very good with the TR + Nastyl Plot set, dealing 82.5 - 97.5% with Sucker Punch. Other options for offensive teams are pokemons that can take a hit from Cofagrigus and hit back very hard like Moltres, Entei and Sceptile. Don't forget that for TR Cofagrigus to be dangerous it has ro use Nasty Plot + TR, which are 2 turns, meaning it has only 3 turns to attack. So if you do some pivoting it will at most kill 1 pokes while being easily picked off by the rest of your team (because a hard hitter of yours took of most of it's life right?). If coupled with Wish support though, it could be very hard to face.

Cofagrigus is a top-tier poke, no doubt, but i don't think it is broken because it can be played around in many ways.

 

[lars]

Want a (near) perfect counter to Cofagrigus? Sp. Defensive Unaware Quagsire. Either a curse set or a Toxic set should manage. He does pretty good as a check to CM Cofagrigus too (one of my favorite Cof sets), except I started to run Energy Ball over HP fighting and it worked great. (can't touch Buf and Saws, but that's a different issue)

Any Phazers who can take a hit do fine against most Cofagrigus sets. TR NP is a killer for sure as a late game cleaner / sweeper when my priority is gone or weakened, but I can usually hold it to one kill if it's early game.

TR NP Slowking is even a little more threatening in my opinion because Psyshock allows him to hit on both Defenses.

Of course threats are mostly dependent on the way your team is built anyway.

 

[Heysup]

Is Spiritomb even a counter to it? I don't think so. Sucker Punch is Spiritomb's strongest move against Cofagrigus. Never mind the fact that Cofagrigus outspeeds under Trick Room.

252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252/0 Cofagrigus= 78.222814%-92.026841%

The Calm Mind set doesn't do anything to Cofagrigus either. Spiritomb will never OHKO at +1, and isn't even guaranteed to at +2.

0 Sp. Atk +1 Bold Spiritomb Dark Pulse vs. 252/4 Cofagrigus= 73.138284%-86.045041%

However, Spiritomb can't switch in at all, even with Trick Room up. It is a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes.

252 Sp. Atk +2 Quiet Cofagrigus Shadow Ball vs. 252/4 Spiritomb= 71.466442%-84.078167%

As you can see, Cofagrigus is definitely a force to be reckoned with, and I think it should at least be put up for suspect and voted on by the next RU Council.

Here's my problem with your logic. You have a bunch of Pokemon brining Cofagrigus down to 25%-15% with one move. Now you bring up that these aren't even OHKOes, well, with no previous or residual damage. However +2 Cofagrigus vs Spiritomb does the same amount of damage (little less even) but all of the sudden that's a OHKO because of hazards. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that sounds......

My second problem as that we aren't talking about a one-move destructive force set up sweeper. We are talking about a two-move (NP then TR) moderately powerful set up sweeper. I promise, if you give any other set up sweeper two free turns you will have much more destructive results. It's not like rain where you have another really fast Pokemon set it up and it lasts 8 turns and you have your STAB moves boosted and you also resist almost every priority move.

I've never had any trouble with cofagrigus, and frankly the only effective ones have been the WoW ones.

 

[spuds4ever]

Cofagrigus is not really a problem if you just do a little a preperation for it. Considering a status-absorber is a good idea, and just packing a phazing move is very often enough to deal with it. Even if you switch in on TR, cofagrigus still only has a pretty average base 95 sp. atk (which is probably also uninvested in) and it's best STAB move is only 80 BP. Will-o-wisp spamming sets, like heysup said, can be fiddly to deal with but it provides an opportunity to take advantage of its weaker special defence.

 

[complete legitimacy]

As you already said, Mandibuzz is a full stop to Cofagrigus. It walls badly the TR + Nasty Plot set, while Taunting any other set and eventually stalling it out. Specially Defensive Drapion also easily stops it, while setting up T-Spikes in its face and phazing you out with WW. Munchlax takes everything easily and phazes you out. Honchkrow also deals very good with the TR + Nastyl Plot set, dealing 82.5 - 97.5% with Sucker Punch. Other options for offensive teams are pokemons that can take a hit from Cofagrigus and hit back very hard like Moltres, Entei and Sceptile. Don't forget that for TR Cofagrigus to be dangerous it has ro use Nasty Plot + TR, which are 2 turns, meaning it has only 3 turns to attack. So if you do some pivoting it will at most kill 1 pokes while being easily picked off by the rest of your team (because a hard hitter of yours took of most of it's life right?). If coupled with Wish support though, it could be very hard to face.

Cofagrigus is a top-tier poke, no doubt, but i don't think it is broken because it can be played around in many ways.

Like I said in my previous post, Mandibuzz is not something that can just be thrown on a team. If you try to prepare for Cofagrigus, you get wrecked by so many other things. If teams are looking for a reliable special wall, they will more often than not use Slowking.

Want a (near) perfect counter to Cofagrigus? Sp. Defensive Unaware Quagsire. Either a curse set or a Toxic set should manage. He does pretty good as a check to CM Cofagrigus too (one of my favorite Cof sets), except I started to run Energy Ball over HP fighting and it worked great. (can't touch Buf and Saws, but that's a different issue)

Any Phazers who can take a hit do fine against most Cofagrigus sets. TR NP is a killer for sure as a late game cleaner / sweeper when my priority is gone or weakened, but I can usually hold it to one kill if it's early game.

TR NP Slowking is even a little more threatening in my opinion because Psyshock allows him to hit on both Defenses.

Of course threats are mostly dependent on the way your team is built anyway.

While you get past Quagsire, like you said you are utterly helpless against Sawsbuck and Bouffalant. Also, you don't beat Ferroseed that easily either, as it Leech Seeds and sets up in your face.

Here's my problem with your logic. You have a bunch of Pokemon brining Cofagrigus down to 25%-15% with one move. Now you bring up that these aren't even OHKOes, well, with no previous or residual damage. However +2 Cofagrigus vs Spiritomb does the same amount of damage (little less even) but all of the sudden that's a OHKO because of hazards. I'm sure you realize how ridiculous that sounds......

My second problem as that we aren't talking about a one-move destructive force set up sweeper. We are talking about a two-move (NP then TR) moderately powerful set up sweeper. I promise, if you give any other set up sweeper two free turns you will have much more destructive results. It's not like rain where you have another really fast Pokemon set it up and it lasts 8 turns and you have your STAB moves boosted and you also resist almost every priority move.

I've never had any trouble with cofagrigus, and frankly the only effective ones have been the WoW ones.

I understand your first point. I should elaborate. While neither of them are switching in to one another, Spiritomb has to take the hit and retaliate, while Cofagrigus can just hit it without worry. My point there was even if Spiritomb survives, it won't KO without a bit if prior damage. Now Cofagrigus outspeeds under TR, and can hit it hard before it has a chance. I wasn't trying to argue that Cofagrigus is a counter to Spiritomb, but that Spiritomb is not a counter to Cofagrigus.

 

[spuds4ever]

I'm not really getting your logic here. To me, it seems like you're saying, "You can't counter cofagrigus without being weak to something else". If you're using a single pokemon to counter it, then of course not. Every pokemon has counters, and all those counters have counters, and so on. Of course it would be different if you had to have several pokemon in your team mostly for the purpose of countering certain sets (look at misdreavus in LC for instance) as that would leave your team vulnerable. But if it's just a matter of slotting in roar or whirlwind on a couple of team members, then it's not an issue.

 

[Heysup]

I understand your first point. I should elaborate. While neither of them are switching in to one another, Spiritomb has to take the hit and retaliate, while Cofagrigus can just hit it without worry. My point there was even if Spiritomb survives, it won't KO without a bit if prior damage. Now Cofagrigus outspeeds under TR, and can hit it hard before it has a chance. I wasn't trying to argue that Cofagrigus is a counter to Spiritomb, but that Spiritomb is not a counter to Cofagrigus.

Any moderately defensive spiritomb comfortably survives a +2 Shadow Ball (even with hazards) and 2HKOes back (switch in on NP, Dark Pulse during TR, take +2 Shadow Ball and KO with Dark Pulse). Any offensive Spiritomb 2HKOes with Shadow Sneak + Sucker Punch without hazards, and OHKOes with Sucker Punch with hazards. As in, priority so TR is kind of useless. If you happen to play well and get Spiritomb down to low HP, you still don't have time to set up both TR and NP.

That is further supported by my second point which has more to do with the bigger picture.