np: UU Stage 7 - Brand New Day

[Pocket]

Foresty, you fell into "banning the next best thing" yourself. Raikou is undoubtedly UU's top contender with its amazing status distribution that puts it above the rest of UU with its Speed, power, and bulk. Raikou is somewhat analagous to Garchomp in OU... except Raikou does not have Sand Veil or the powerful Ground / Dragon coverage that toppled Garchomp out of OU.

Raikou is vulnerable to entry hazards and does not have wall-breaking power. It's a great mid- late-game sweeper, but it needs proper team support to function at all - you still have to do work to win with Raikou. Just like you can make a team that hates on Swampert and Snorlax, it's perfectly possible to make a team that hates on Raikou (and all teams should be prepared for UU's #1 threat). CM Raikou is easily revenged by Scarfers and SubCM Raikou hits really weak without CM boosts.

This metagame is perfectly balanced - all of these top threats highlighted as suspects - Raikou, Chandelure, Kingdra - are the Terrakion, Salamence, and Dragonite of UU; they are all top contenders of UU, but the metagame has all the resources to prevent them from having free reign. They are all awesome mons, but not "too good." Give us a Raikou with Quiver Dance or Shell Smash (or even NP) and we'd have a pokemon worthy of suspect status. Atm, we're just doing a desperate witch hunt for the sake of suspecting something that's remotely good.

Before banning anything, sand should have a proper test without Sand Veil. kokoloko has said during last stage that we will test sand when the metagame stabilizes, and there's no better time than now. Reading from the suspect paragraphs (sans upstart), a few things are clear. First, all senators believe that Sand Veil's 20% miss hax is uncompetitive. Second, sand / 2x Speed Stoutland is perfectly manageable. So why not ban Sand Veil and Sand Veil alone? Some people highlighted the annoyance of the passive damage from Sand, but that's NOTHING compared to the residual damage from entry hazards, scald burns, leech seed, or Life Orb recoil. Just stating a fact (ie Raikou has 115 base Speed / residual damage hurts my Pokemon) does not make it a justification for a ban. Those who argued for a Sandstream ban, argued that the "whole package" of sand is the reason for its exile. However the only "bad thing" about sand teams are the sand-dependent abilities, not the direct effects of summoning sand itself (passive damage, 50% SpD boosts to Rock-types). If we can ban these abilities in isolation from sand (Sand Veil and maybe Sand Rush), why not do so?

I understand that sand has received major buffs in Stoutland receiving Superpower and Sandslash having its Sand Rush released, but tiering decisions are not based on theorymon. Frankly, the previous suspect stage was sloppy, with upstart not even providing a proper paragraph / explanation of his ban decision (iirc), and guest members like Aldaron making a decision instead (again, not providing any paragraph to legitimize his thoughts; not even sure if he even plays UU). Sand deserves a second chance / proper testing without the douchiness of Sand Veil, as kokoloko has promised. If anything, sand would de-centralize the current UU that revolves around Raikou, Kingdra, etc, which were top threats in the sand meta, too.

More of my thoughts on sand:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4294912&postcount=407
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4294999&postcount=411

 

[pokemonisfun]

If Slowking can be used to counter Kingdra when Slowbro cannot, then Slowking isn't outclassed by Slowbro. It's not 98% outclassed by Slowbro, either. In fact, the only reason why Slowbro gets all the usage and Slowking doesn't is because in previous metagames, Physical threats were more threatening than Special threats. If the metagame shifts so that Kingdra is more of a premier threat, then Slowking no longer becomes outclassed by Slowbro.

Just because a Pokemon affects the metagame doesn't mean it's broken. Look at Skarmory in ADV. Magneton was only OU because Skarmory was, does that make Skarmory broken? Look at Tyranitar in OU now. Dugtrio's only OU because of Tyranitar, does that make Tyranitar broken? Banning Kingdra is just banning the "next good thing", and Kingdra has plenty of its own problems.

Dragon Dance Kingdra is really, really weak, even with DD. It can barely 2KO Slowbro after two Dragon Dances for example. Choice Specs Kingdra isn't very fast. In fact, Kingdra isn't even the best sweeper/attacker in UU, Raikou is. Zapdos, in my opinion, is also better than Kingdra but that's an argument for another time. Really, Kingdra just isn't very broken at all. It's weak to status unless it's running ChestoRest or Substitute, but its Substitutes are so weak that anything besides Scald and Fire attacks will break it no problem.

In Rain, Kingdra's more problematic but still manageable. Snorlax does an excellent job, and so does Togekiss if it's running Thunder Wave. Umbreon can probably take a few hits and beat Kingdra 1v1. And don't forget Flygon who just manhandles the Dragon Dance set as long as Kingdra doesn't have 2 DDs or is Outraging...

I have never claimed (yet!) that Kingdra was broken, rather I am, as you seemed to have notice one of those guys who wants to suspect Kingdra. I suppose I made a mistake with the word "outclass". Slowbro is just far better at handling most threats (see the list I posted before) than Slowking can with the same typing and movepool (except Dragon Tail/Nasty Plot/Trick Room).

You are correct in saying that Skarmory is not suspect simply because it pulls up Magneton usage. However if you measure something's "suspectness" you could hardly argue that it would not contribute to its suspect status. Your metaphor is inaccurate though because you fail to recognize that there is an alternative in UU (Slowbro) that can basically do much more than what the pulled up Pokemon can (Slowking/Magneton) which is countering a single threat (Kingdra/Skarmory). if you do not understand what I am saying, let me put it like this. Kingdra not only drags up Slowking but it pushes aside a good UU Pokemon, Slowbro. Skarmory only drags up Magneton while not being suspect enough to push anything aside. You can make the same case for Dugtrio, except your metaphor is slightly more flawed because Dugtrio also has more use than trapping Tyranitar, it can trap Ninetales.

I am not arguing that DD Kingdra is suspect by itself, rather that when you realize it has one turn of pure unpredictability, the first turn, you have something that is suspect.

Do you try and status Kingdra, only to have it Rest later or set up a Substitute? Do you switch in a special defender only to have it mauled by a DD set? Do you switch in a physical defender only to realize attacks specially? Do you just straight up attack hoping that it will try to set up and have it blast a Specs move right in your face? Do you take comfort knowing you can revenge it later only to have it outspeed your Scarf Mienshao in Rain? This turn is what makes me think Kingdra is suspect, along with the Rain Dance sets terrifying power and speed.

In Rain Kingdra can OHKO all but the most specially defensive Togekiss with a boosted Hydro Pump and Stealth Rock and frankly Togekiss should be running a lot in Speed. Snorlax does a fine job at countering Rain Dance Kingdra but a terrible job at countering Dragon Dance Kingdra. It is not too easy to fit in Snorlax in an offensive team though, unless you want CB Lax on your team. It will take around 55% at least, and up to 65%, from a Rain boosted Hydro Pump, which is a KO after a round of Stealth Rock and something as simple as a U-turn. Or while we are on the subject, after a Specs Fire Blast from Chandelure. Umbreon is not beating Dragon Dance Kingdra without significant defense investment (and Umbreon is mediocre anyways outside of its niche), period the end. Kingdra will be only taking 30% a turn and after a boost Umbreon will be taking damage in the lower 40s. Add in a flinch chance, Kingdra's ability to 2HKO after two boosts a hooray Kingdra wins easily. umbreon can only take on Kingdra in Rain if it is above 50% health although Protect stalling will give trouble to Kingdra. Flygon undeniably loses Rain Dance, in any case if you have to resort to revenging something you have to put yourself in a losing position.

I will edit later about Chandelure.

 

[Mew]

Dude seriously what is it with you. Sand was not only not fun to play against, but it makes Stoutland relatively just as good as Kingdra in round 1 OU. Sand is really bad for the meta, especially now that Sandslash (Excadrill 0.5) has been released and Stoutland got even better.

What are you expecting the metagame to become? Sure this is theorymon, but if you get your suspect testing period I believe it won't prove anything but sand being not fun, overpowered and most of all bad for the metagame.

 

[Psychotic]

Posting to agree with Forsety about Chandelure. The Choice Specs set can 2HKO every pokemon in the tier except 252/252+ Snorlax, if that deosn't cry "suspect" then I don't know what does. Another thing is that minimal prediction is required on the Chandeure user's part to ensure at least one kill every time it comes in. The 3 most used bulky waters (Blastoise, Swampert, Slowbro) are all 2HKOed by Fire Blast after SR, and they're all outsped by Chandelure as well. Porygon2 and Snorlax are regarded as the most reliable Chandelure checks, and that in itself is laughable because Porygon2 is only a check if the Chandelure user is using Flash Fire and doesn't carry HP Fighting. Snorlax, on the other hand, is bulky enough to survive 2 consecutive HP Fighting's with maximum SpD investment, but the only set that runs that spread lacks any moves that can harm Chandelure.

I think any argument that is based on the fact that Chandelure lacks complete counters is a terrible one. Kingdra has none as well, but that doesn't mean it should be banned. Chandelure has an insane amount of checks, which is basically anything faster that has a supereffective move, or anything slower that can take a hit and either cripple or KO it. The minimal prediction argument is not true at all either, since a ton of people use cores like Togekiss+Kingdra to deal with Chandelure. This forces you to predict every single time you come in. If you make the wrong prediction, it can very often mean GG since they can just set up with Kingdra or Togekiss as you switch out.

Frail offensive teams that rely on type synergy really don't have a chance against Chandelure since it cuts through resistances like butter and has multiple opportunities to come in on the likes of Roserade, Heracross, and choiced Fire types.

Every single offensive team I have used has never had a problem with Chandelure, simply because it is too frail and slow to ever cause problems.

This metagame is perfectly balanced - all of these top threats highlighted as suspects - Raikou, Chandelure, Kingdra - are the Terrakion, Salamence, and Dragonite of UU; they are all top contenders of UU, but the metagame has all the resources to prevent them from having free reign. They are all awesome mons, but not "too good."

I 100% agree with you. This meta is the most balanced so far, and people are just looking for something to ban. How 'bout you just adapt your teams to the current meta and stop complaining about Raikou or Kingdra, just because your favorite team cant handle them.

 

[Machi]

Atm, we're just doing a desperate witch hunt for the sake of suspecting something that's remotely good.

They are hardly remotely good, Raikou especially as many would agree it is one of the best special sweepers in UU thanks to speed and typing.

I 100% agree with you. This meta is the most balanced so far, and people are just looking for something to ban. How 'bout you just adapt your teams to the current meta and stop complaining about Raikou or Kingdra, just because your favorite team cant handle them.

Easier said than done when you consider that the metagame has adapted to other threats whose checks and counters aren't necessarily complimentary to dealing with these two. I'm talking about adapting to fire types and fighting types. Yes you could have a wall like Lax but lets face it that is a lot of punishment for one mon, moreover with other priority threats of tanking a fire attack or what not he's not lasting long based on experience of facing Lax. I've said this before its just suicide to not prepare against the freakishly heavy hitting fire types (Victini, Darm, and Lure) while it would almost be equally as bad to not take into account the new and improved fighters (Moxiecross, Scrafty, and Mein). This is where I see the metagame adapting, and you even have people in the earlier parts of the thread looking especially at the utility gained by the Nidos because of fighting resist. Its not unusual to see why its so difficult to account or adapt these two threats. Which is why I'm not in agreement that this metagame is necessarily the most balanced as its becoming clearly more and more offensively oriented, that it is more preferable to run a highly offensive team.

Frankly I find Raikou to be more exposed as a threat now unlike before because the metagame has changed by no longer being narrowed by sand, yes he was awesome before but electric type attacks have gained better coverage in this meta now that sand is gone because we don't have the archetype sand team we once did that kept Raikou in check, 2 ground types and a rock types here and there with boosted SpD and of course Stoutland outspeeding him. Sand basically hid how much of a threat he was and that was not a good thing IMO as it was closer to broke checking broke, yes I support the sand ban. With that speed and power, yes he can quite easily make a dent with his electric attacks against the flying types (Togekiss usually) and bulky waters (Milotic, Suicune, and Pert), he does help to push for the more offensively oriented metagame where he is thriving.

Since when is that a reason to directly suspect a pokemon? Off the top of my head, CB Rhyperior and CB Rampardos can do the same. Is that reason enough to suspect them? Of course, no, because they are slow, and not especially easy to switch in (Rhyperior is actually easier to switch in than Chandelure, but there are still a lot of pokemon that are faster and can KO due to its common weaknesses). It applies the same for Chandelure, which has bad HP, only passable defenses (greatly hindered by that HP), is weak to Stealth Rock, and it's weak to a lot of common attacking types, while it doesn't have that many useful resistances to patch up for its defensive stats.

Just going to say this since Koko already mentioned Lure isn't likely to get suspect but I would like to clear two common misconception about Lure. He is by no means a glass canon like Rampardos and running 156 HP EVs and enough speed for 220 basically nets him the same kills he would normally outspeed but with bulk to now easily survive a pursuit should he stay in (meaning your pursuit user if it is Weavile or Hound will get maimed often, save the latter if Lure is choice locked to Fire Blast, if its HP fighting locked tough luck since both can survive Shadow Ball but will be in easy range for SR death this is based on Jolly/Timid CB). He has great immunities that work well in this metagame unlike Rampardos that gives him ease in switching in safely and repeatedly. While I will just point out that Rhyperior has a 100 BP STAB attack coming off 140 Atk on the other hand Lure has a 145 SpA with a STAB 120 Fire attack (that can potentially be boosted by one of his switch ins). In addition Chandelure may not be fast be he has adequate speed with 220 speed Chandelure generally outspeeds bulky waters that can easily threaten Rhyperior and generally 2 OHKO them if no prior SR damage, Empeloen, Suicune, and Milotic. In addition to being able to outspeed SpD built Roserade... These things are common mons that easily threaten Rhyperior that Lure can stay into. So I don't find Lure to be all that comparable to these two other heavy hitters he is no glass canon and has adequate speed in addition to great dual stabs.

 

[kokoloko]

There's way too many tl;dr posts for me to read and I honestly can't be bothered to read them all, so here's what's going on with suspects in the near future:

1. Kingdra is getting suspected (don't try to convince me otherwise, it's happening) once we close applications for the Senate and pick the new member(s). Enough people want it, and that's all we need in order to suspect something. Banning it, on the other hand, is a different story entirely. Even I wouldn't vote to ban it at the moment, but the whole point of declaring it a suspect is to give people the chance to debate it. With this said, I want everyone to save their arguments as to why it should be banned/kept until the thread opens in about a week.

2. As for Sand Stream, I only promised to consider Pocket's proposal, not that I'd actually act on it. I have kept my promise.

RE: Chandelure - I want it suspected, but 1. I don't think enough people do, and 2. I'd rather we deal with Kingdra first.

 

[/B/utterfree]

Thank you, kokoloko. At least now the Suspect Council at least has one Pokemon being Suspected. While I'm disappointed that Roserade was not chosen for the act of being kicked out of UU, I will gladly continue to use it and succeed with it in the tier until such time occurs.

 

[superbadd]

If sand does get retested could sun and hail be tested as well?

 

[FlareBlitz]

If sand does get retested could sun and hail be tested as well?

1) Sand will not be retested.
2) No.

I'm not finding anything particularly broken or difficult to handle at the moment. RD Kingdra gonna king, I suppose, but it has a very large number of checks (every bulky water barring Slowbro, Roserade, Shaymin, Snorlax, P2, Umbreon, etc) that prevent it from being truly dominant. DD Kingdra runs through most of those, but it has its own problems (relatively weak and slow, has difficulty gaining multiple boosts against offensive teams).

Come on guys, quit worrying about what's broken and find new shit to use. BW2 made a lot of Pokemon very viable. For example, have any of you considered Eelektross as a solution to your raikou problems?

Eelektross @ Leftovers
Adamant
248 HP / 96 Atk / 164 SpD

-Coil
-Wild Charge / ThunderPunch
-Drain Punch
-Aqua Tail

Set up on raikou, get most of your health back by beating it. Benefits from scoring SE hits on the most common phazers / burners in the tier, and has very good coverage overall. Gets scary stronger after a Coil or two.

 

[destinyunknown]

Just going to say this since Koko already mentioned Lure isn't likely to get suspect but I would like to clear two common misconception about Lure. He is by no means a glass canon like Rampardos and running 156 HP EVs and enough speed for 220 basically nets him the same kills he would normally outspeed but with bulk to now easily survive a pursuit should he stay in (meaning your pursuit user if it is Weavile or Hound will get maimed often, save the latter if Lure is choice locked to Fire Blast, if its HP fighting locked tough luck since both can survive Shadow Ball but will be in easy range for SR death this is based on Jolly/Timid CB). He has great immunities that work well in this metagame unlike Rampardos that gives him ease in switching in safely and repeatedly. While I will just point out that Rhyperior has a 100 BP STAB attack coming off 140 Atk on the other hand Lure has a 145 SpA with a STAB 120 Fire attack (that can potentially be boosted by one of his switch ins). In addition Chandelure may not be fast be he has adequate speed with 220 speed Chandelure generally outspeeds bulky waters that can easily threaten Rhyperior and generally 2 OHKO them if no prior SR damage, Empeloen, Suicune, and Milotic. In addition to being able to outspeed SpD built Roserade... These things are common mons that easily threaten Rhyperior that Lure can stay into. So I don't find Lure to be all that comparable to these two other heavy hitters he is no glass canon and has adequate speed in addition to great dual stabs.

I acknowledge all of this, please READ again the post I was quoting and what I was really saying. I'm not comparating Chandelure as a glass cannon to Rampardos, because honestly, Rampardos sucks in UU. What I was saying is that the argument used by RT. ''Having 145 Base SpA is reason to directly suspect something'' is not by any means reason enough to suspect a pokemon. In fact, I made it clear by comparing it with Rampardos, which has a monstruous base Atk but it's not even used because, again, it sucks.

Please read the rest of my post, as I clearly stated Chandelure is amazing against slower teams because it gets more chances to get a hit in. Chandelure is slower than CM Suicune (what people should be using, because Defensive Suicune is outclassed by Slowbro in this metagame). And don't say ''Chandelure can stay on Roserade or outspeeds Milotic'', because I could also say ''Rhyperior can switch on Zapdos, Crobat and LO Darmanitan while Chandelure can't'' In fact Rhyperior can switch on more pokemon than Chandelure, and has better staying power, of course it isn't taking a Water type Special attack -.-

Not going to bother answering to the rest of your arguments because I did already with my previous post, which I (again) recommend you to read, because you clearly haven't understand the point I was trying to make with it, nor have you realized I have already said most things you're arguing.

 

[Forsety]

To be fair a Rampardos/Chand analogy is a pretty shitty one ignoring the comparison of resistances. Special attacks have a significantly different impact in UU vs physical due to the way the tier is laid out.

Come on guys, quit worrying about what's broken and find new shit to use. BW2 made a lot of Pokemon very viable. For example, have any of you considered Eelektross as a solution to your raikou problems?

Actually yes, I already use a Eelektross and it does work as a check unless Rai is Spec'd and chooses to Volt Switch all over the place but that is easier to deal with anyway. Drain Punch was literally god's gift towards the Eel.

I also know that in theory Coil set is awesome but in practice it always falls short and I've been playing with a few variations of the Eel too. With your specific set you basically invite Roserade in and I can't think of any situation where inviting Roserade is a good thing.

It also points out another problem with him that he just doesn't make a good tank, his defenses are good at best making him prone to being nuked so it's not a good idea to leave him in. He also really does not like Burns or Toxic making Cleric support a requirement if you want to run a Coil set. I've tried Dragon Tail for phazing and coverage but his speed is usually his undoing being the slowest phazer out there getting phazed himself usually.

I've found Eel however is a great user of Knock Off as he does tend to make people switch because of the threat of his massive mixed movepool. Disarming your opponents of their items is a genuinely effective strategy in this environment and thanks to the increased distribution of the move making it unpredictable. Wild Charge is the better STAB attack as the extra power is significant enough to let you 2HKO almost any variation of the bulky waters Blastoise/Milotic/Slowbro/Suicune without a Coil boost.

 

[Mazz]

Roserade may not want to switch in on Eelektross. I want to say run Fire Punch over Aqua Tail, or have it as a slash-in, considering Ground-types aren't much threat to it thanks to Levitate, and it won't be taking a lot of abuse after a coil or two. Hell, I even think Lum Berry could be ran over Leftovers, since Drain Punch restores HP anyways.

A Coil set isn't Eelektross' only viable set. It can easily run a specially attacking set too. Has anyone noticed that it gets Acid Spray, which sharply lowers an opponent's Special Defence? It can more or less generate its own momentum and has stellar coverage with Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / HP Ice. Sure its slow, but hell, even slow Pokemon such as Snorlax or Rhyperior are still used offensively more often than not. This set doesn't fear a burn as much as the Coil Set does.

Looking at Eelektross, I'm somewhat surprised that its only NU, even after the gifts it got from the BW2 tutors (it's probably subject to change). Why exactly isn't this thing in UU or RU yet? It's got great stats - bar the Speed - and has a very strong movepool.

 

[SJCrew]

Eelektross definitely does not have great stats. On top of being slow, it's just not bulky enough. 85/80 is can to survive, say, one Seed Flare from Shaymin before being revenged immediately. You compare this to Snorlax, who has 30 more base Sp. Def and 75 more base HP meaning he can actually survive an impressive number of special attacks before he dies. He has better attack too. And stronger STABs. And a better ability.

Before you suggest Eelektross jump two tiers, you really need to consider the kind of league he's competing with. UU somehow ended up with all of the base 140 bullshit we thought would be OU a while back.

 

[cim]

I don't get what the big problem with Raikou is. Maybe I've never faced a good one or maybe my team is set up to deal with it rather well, but standard Body Slam / WW Snorlax beats it pretty handily and its defenses while good don't make it impervious to a revenge kill from the likes of Flygon or Heracross.

 

[Mazz]

Before you suggest Eelektross jump two tiers, you really need to consider the kind of league he's competing with.

I never suggested it, only wondered why it wasn't higher than NU. I also wouldn't argue between Snorlax and Eelektross who has the better ability. Each ability performs for the individual Pokemon differently, Thick Fat giving Snorlax increased bulk against common special attacks, and Levitate removing Eelektross' only weakness and giving it an opportunity to switch in and begin a setup or sweep.

Eelektross won't be an amazing Pokemon in UU's terms. You're right. It's too slow, and not nearly bulky enough. But it works. Given enough time to set up, the coil set takes very little abuse from the physical attackers in the tier, and will be dishing out a fair bit of punishment physically. Its got the offensive stats and movepool to be used in UU. Hell, its basically as bulky as Kingdra and doesn't have any weaknesses. Eelektross won't be the next Roserade or Raikou, but it can compete in the tier.

How UU ended up with the base 140 shit down here, I don't know. Either way, that's two Pokemon out of a whole tier of 52 Pokemon. Both of which are weak to all forms of hazards, losing upwards of 50% of their HP upon switching in on 3 full layers. With team support, issues like these won't be that big of a deal. Eelektross may not be able to handle abuse from faster and stronger attackers, but it really doesn't have to. If need be, it can live a fair range of attacks and still hit back. It's another solid answer to one of the most prominent special attackers in UU, and shouldn't be looked down upon because of a meagre base 50 Speed. It can take some hits and dish them out.

 

[SJCrew]

lol yeah, you definitely did suggest he should be two tiers higher, right at the end of your post in a rhetorical question. We have a lot of good Pokemon aside from Eelektross struggling for their spot, and as an offensive Pokemon, it simply doesn't bring enough to the table.

How UU ended up with the base 140 shit down here, I don't know. Either way, that's two Pokemon out of a whole tier of 52 Pokemon. Both of which are weak to all forms of hazards, losing upwards of 50% of their HP upon switching in on 3 full layers. With team support, issues like these won't be that big of a deal.

Missing the point; you somehow read "Darmanitan and Chandelure are full counters and make him nonviable" instead of my actual point, which was that pretty much everything in UU is better than it and can overpower it with such mediocre defenses and a lack of speed. Don't forget about Rhyperior, another speculated OU from last gen!

UU is very powerful, and I don't think you fully realize that. It's hard to be a defensive Pokemon in this tier. We have Pokemon with completely retarded defenses that struggle to get the job done (Suicune, Gligar, Snorlax). Both offensively and defensively, Eelektross fails to make any of those Pokemon respect it. Bulky Water-types, for example, are hard for him to switch into because of Scald. This is a big problem if Coil is your gameplan. Even a Specs Eel is walled by Snorlax or set up on by Suicune. 105 offenses are barely better than our average attackers like Flygon. It offers no real advantages over our current list of physical/special attackers or Electric types.

Eelektross may not be able to handle abuse from faster and stronger attackers, but it really doesn't have to.

Yes it does. UU is nothing BUT stronger and faster attackers, which cuts right into Eel's viability.

Now if we're talking about Coil and only Coil, we can have a real conversation. He just received Drain Punch from BW2, which puts him on the cusp of viable, since the only real problem with Coil sets in the past were his lack of recovery and the fact that he could not do anything to patch up his average special defense. The special defense thing still leaves him prey to most of our special attackers, but it can be a real threat with two or more boosts if you can get around the team's Roserade/Chandelure/Kingdra or what have you. It's still rather dubious when you could be using Curselax though. I don't see it avoiding burns or getting enough HP back from Drain Punch to make it worth the endeavor.

 

[/B/utterfree]

I'd like to diverge from this Eelektross discussion, as I'm in no way qualified to talk about Eel (I used it a few times in RU and regretted it, but that's not saying anything).

I honestly feel that Heracross is becoming more and more a problem in UU.

Does anybody remember why it was banned from UU in Gen IV? I know it lasted for less than a month in the Gen IV UU tier, as this was slightly before BW came out. I was still fairly new to the competitive scene back then, and stuck with using Parasect in Ubers and just chilling out in the other tiers otherwise.

I generally assume Heracross was banned because nothing could wall it, due to Guts. With BW, Guts Heracross became slightly more manageable I guess. Now that it has Moxie? It's already heading to #1 in usage again, and making Raikou and Roserade look tame by comparison (although Roserade's still giving it a run for its money, as are other Fighting-types). To be honest, I think Hera should be Suspected next, since I do not expect Kingdra to be banned from UU.

I can see Cofagrigus being a problem for Hera, but other than that I generally think it will hit like a truck. Didn't people earlier mention that it was really easy for Heracross to get a Moxie boost in UU? I forget. I might have to re-examine some of these posts and the such, but I'm under the agreement of this presumption.

I'll understand if these questions seem stupid for someone who should know Gen IV like the back of their hand (I even remember when Weavile was in Ubers!). Anyway, I'm off to see how this Stage has progressed to see if I can contribute anything else to it other than continued insistence of banning Roserade.

 

[cim]

I honestly feel that Heracross is becoming more and more a problem in UU.

Does anybody remember why it was banned from UU in Gen IV?

Honestly, it doesn't matter at all why Heracross was banned from UU in a previous generation. The metagames aren't even close to comparable. This gen's UU includes such fun Pokemon as Zapdos, Snorlax, Bronzong, Empoleon, Machamp, Suicune... It's a whole different metagame. Cross-generational arguments rarely hold up, especially once you fall past OU.

I think Heracross is very good, possibly even Suspect worthy, but it's not unstoppable. It's either Choiced or outsped and KOed. Zapdos and Crobat are reasonable responses who have some competitive viability outside of "stop Heracross", to name a few.

 

[ss234]

Scarf Heracross has too many counters to be suspected IMO. Any Cofagrigus, Sableye, Gligar, defensive Zapdos, defensive Arcanine, Qwilfish(who can use Twave to cripple him) and Crobat are all great counters. As a late game sweeper he is very good, but not nearly as threatening as Kingdra who can run so many sets. Cofagrigus gets a special mention since it has Mummy to take away Moxie-and therefore even the offensive TR set is a good counter.

 

[EonADS]

I don't think Scarf Heracross is a good suspect. It's outsped by a lot of faster Scarfers and both bulky Zapdos and Cofagrigus shut down just about anything it has (Cofagrigus especially, with Mummy nullifying Moxie). It's definitely a top threat in UU, but it's not all that hard to play around. Heracross is extremely predictable once you figure out the set, which is pretty easy just on damage output alone.

Anyway, bit of a topic jump, but what do you guys think is the most viable Rapid Spinner in UU?

Personally, I'd say Blastoise. Hitmontop just has too many issues with Spinblockers for my taste, and Claydol... sucks.

Kabutops is pretty decent too; it outright beats Frosslass and typically defeats Chandelure and Mismagius too. It has a good offensive presence thanks to STAB Aqua Jet, Base 115 Attack and its great coverage with just its STABs. It has issues with the bulkier ghosts, Dusclops in particular spits on everything it could possibly do, but it also makes a decent utility check for faster threats like Crobat, Arcanine, Victini, and Scarf Chandelure. It also partners almost perfectly with Roserade.

 

[superbadd]

Since goth is released, spinners are going to be extremely nullified, she can trap and kill every one of them, the only good anti-hazard poke against her is xatu and that's because of u-turn.

 

[Mazz]

what do you guys think is the most viable Rapid Spinner in UU?

I've personally stopped giving a shit about Rapid Spin. It kills momentum, and considering things like Toxic spikes are absorbed by Roserade, I don't have much of a need for it. Throw a couple levitating / spikes immune Pokemon on a team with a few SR resists, and there's not much to worry about. Recovery moves go a long ways too. Strictly opinion, Blastoise, Cryogonal and Kabutops are the best spinners in UU right now. They all beat the common spinblockers, although Crygonal has issues with Chandelure, and can still provide to a team unlike Hitmontop and Claydol. I've actually gained a particular interest in Kabutops and may try it out one of these days.

 

[superbadd]

I'm curious is uu gonna instaban st chandelure once it's released, or will we wait till it moves up to ou?

 

[Mazz]

Since goth is released, spinners are going to be extremely nullified, she can trap and kill every one of them, the only good anti-hazard poke against her is xatu and that's because of u-turn.

Gothitelle only has base 65 Speed, and isn't a Ghost-type, meaning there are spinners that still beat it. Cryogonal will probably be our best bet, considering it has the Special Defence to handle Gothitelle and can haze away its boosts. It's also 40 base points faster than Gothitelle, so yeah. Shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

[superbadd]

Goth has psyshock though, so I dunno.