I understand and respect the argument for promoting transitivity when it's appropriate to do so. From the perspective of the general playerbase, it is reasonable to expect that if something is banned in a higher tier, it should be an issue in the tiers below it as well. The hierarchical system of tiers naturally implies this, even if the tiers themselves are, in reality, primarily self-contained metagames that have their own underlying dynamics at play. Keeping things simple also arguably makes it easier to transition from tier to tier as there aren't as many caveats to become adjusted to. There are arguments that can be made against these points, of course, but it's a subjective matter at the end of the day. I respect that it is the tiering admins' authority to make these calls.In general, we are trying to make our tiering process more consistent across the board. Among other things that does mean keeping transitivity wherever possible, because frankly the idea of allowing something in UU or NU that is illegal in OU runs contrary to our core method of tiering. I agree that it gets a bit dicier with old gens, because it means we are changing a usage-based tier long after usage-based changes stopped taking effect, but I do think that consistency is important here.
Does what the playerbase of the tiers that this change affects thinks matter to the decisionmakers here? I am struggling to grasp how it could be essential to maintain consistency across old gen lower tiers when the community doesn't want it at all. If you are considering making an exception for RSE, you could also make an exception for gens up to probably 5 or so, and just leave all changes to OU as transitivity optional. I don't think a tier being usage-based has a lot to do with the desire people have to maintain the tier in approximately the state it was in when it was a current gen tier.In general, we are trying to make our tiering process more consistent across the board. Among other things that does mean keeping transitivity wherever possible, because frankly the idea of allowing something in UU or NU that is illegal in OU runs contrary to our core method of tiering. I agree that it gets a bit dicier with old gens, because it means we are changing a usage-based tier long after usage-based changes stopped taking effect, but I do think that consistency is important here.
EW actually does raise a pretty good point with regard to Gen 3 tiering. It becomes a bit awkward there, because real usage-based tiering didn't really begin until DPP. We don't enforce transitivity in the case of the NFE ban, partially because Gen 3 NU was created long after Gen 3 UU, at a time when we had a very different idea of what a lower tier should look like. But should we? I'd hate to completely decimate NU and PU for a poorly made (and inconsistently enforced) decision from more than a decade ago. But what if, say, the ADV Council bans Baton Pass next month? Should we carry that ban to the lower tiers?
To me there are two options. We could either have each Gen 3 tier determine whether to carry over such a ban independently, since the fact that tiering was handled very differently in Gen 3 means that enforcing transitivity is less essential, or we could look at reversing the NFE ban in Gen 3 UU (probably backed by a hard ban of Chansey + Kadabra), which would allow us to preserve transitivity without crippling NU/PU and with minimal impact on UU. I'm usually not a fan of fiddling with old gen lower tiers in this way, but in this case it might be the best option. Definitely something that needs more discussion, though.
I am certainly not qualified to answer on behalf of all lower tiers. For some old gen tiers I think this is probably appropriate (many old gen lower tiers that existed prior to the next gen being released for example) but it would not work for RBY lower tiers, GSC for NU and lower, RSE for NU and lower, DPP PU and lower (probably? Akir), and possibly others. However, others should speak on behalf of tiers that aren't GSC.So is it your opinion that old gen lower tiers should be locked completely? I'm not necessarily opposed to that.
PU oldgens older than gen6 are an odd case where they are actually somewhat "fresh" and don't really fit into this conversion. Gen4 does almost fit this though so I'll be speaking on that.I am certainly not qualified to answer on behalf of all lower tiers. For some old gen tiers I think this is probably appropriate (many old gen lower tiers that existed prior to the next gen being released for example) but it would not work for RBY lower tiers, GSC for NU and lower, RSE for NU and lower, DPP PU and lower (probably? Akir), and possibly others. However, others should speak on behalf of tiers that aren't GSC.
Would you be happy with this kind of approach?
Would definitely defer to your opinion on those twoI personally think RBY UU and lower/GSC NU and lower should remain unlocked at this point. I don't think they have any circuit representation at this point in time so hopefully that is okay.
I think that's an interesting start, but I'm a little hesitant to push through any policy just based on posts in the NU Old Gens hub when any such policy is going to affect a wide cross-section of communities. Why not re-post the proposed policy in PR so that we can discuss there and allow for feedback from non-NU folks, especially since it seems like the NUPL decision removes the immediate need for a change?Hogg any thoughts on the written policy proposal above link would be appreciated
Can we update PS to unban Sand Veil in NU until after NUPL so that we don't have to use Gen4Ubers as the format during the tournament?talked a bit about it and we came to the decision that for this NUPL at least, DPP NU will be played with Sand Veil allowed, so Cacturne and Sandslash will be legal. this is so we do not have to shake up a metagame right before a big tour, and gives senior staff more time to decide what to do with regard to old generation lower tiers. keep in mind this decision is only for this nupl, so if senior staff decides that the ban stays, it will not be allowed in future DPP NU Cups or NUPLS.
tldr: sand veil is allowed for nupl vii, hippopotas remains banned