Oglemi
Borf
So we might as well hash this out sooner than later.
In the other thread starting here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/separate-tiering-of-mega-pokemon.3546062/page-7 I explained our current tiering philosophy in that we ban what is most simple, logical and effective, as well as here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prefer-banning-pokémon-instead-of-items-abilities.3500294/#post-5250718. These are some of the more poignant examples from XY and ORAS thus far:
In dealing with Blaziken (and Greninja), possible bans included:
- Blaziken as a whole
- Blaziken + Speed Boost
- Speed Boost
In dealing with Mawile (and Gengar), possible bans included: (example subject to change in regards to the other thread)
- Mawile as a whole
- Mawile + Mawilite
- Mawilite
In dealing with Aegislash, possible bans included:
- Aegislash as a whole
- King's Shield
- Aegislash + King's Shield
In each of these, how we determined what was most simple and logical boiled down to what caused the least amount of collateral damage while also being the most straightforward ban possible.
In the Blaziken case, it was determined that banning Speed Boost was not an option as it has been proven that not all Pokemon that receive Speed Boost are broken (ie Sharpedo and Yanmega are not broken with Speed Boost), therefore banning Speed Boost was not what was most logical. Banning the combination of Blaziken + Speed Boost created what we define as a complex ban (banning a part of two elements to create a whole ban), therefore banning the combination was not what was most simple. This forced us to conclude that the most simple and logical ban was to ban Blaziken.
In the Mawile case, it was determined that banning Mawile was not an option as it has been proven that Mawile alone is not a broken Pokemon, therefore banning Mawile was not what was most logical. Banning the combination of Mawile + Mawilite created what we define as a complex ban (banning a part of two elements to create a whole ban), therefore banning the combination was not what was most simple. Mawilite was proven to be broken on the only Pokemon that can make use of it (electing to ignore that it has no effect on any other Pokemon that may hold it), therefore this forced us to conclude that the most simple and logical ban was to ban Mawilite.
In the Aegislash case, it was determined that banning the combination of Aegislash + King's Shield created what we define as a complex ban (banning a part of two elements to create a whole ban), therefore banning the combination was not what was most simple. It could not be proven that King's Shield alone was broken, as it does not include the forme change that it does with Aegislash on the other Pokemon that receive it (Smeargle), as well it could not be proven that the Attack forme or Defense forme of Aegislash is what was broken, but rather the fact that it could change formes to be both offensive and defensive, therefore banning King's Shield was not what was most simple or logical. This forced us to conclude that the most simple and logical ban was to ban Aegislash.
Now, where this thread comes in is to address what we determine as most simple in regards to the Blaziken example. Do we want to change our tiering policy to conclude that banning the combination of a Pokemon + Ability is more desirable than concluding the most simple and logical ban to be the Pokemon as a whole? This would mean we would change our tiering policy to conclude that we should ban Blaziken + Speed Boost, rather than Blaziken. As well, we would conclude that we should ban Greninja + Protean as opposed to Greninja, and other examples could include Landorus + Sheer Force (and Excadrill + Sand Rush in BW, ignoring the recent BW tiering changes).
My personal opinion is that we should continue to strive to be most simple, as well Zarel made it clear that complex bans are undesirable in implementation.
PS: Any "slippery slope" arguments will be deleted on sight.
In the other thread starting here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/separate-tiering-of-mega-pokemon.3546062/page-7 I explained our current tiering philosophy in that we ban what is most simple, logical and effective, as well as here http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/prefer-banning-pokémon-instead-of-items-abilities.3500294/#post-5250718. These are some of the more poignant examples from XY and ORAS thus far:
In dealing with Blaziken (and Greninja), possible bans included:
- Blaziken as a whole
- Blaziken + Speed Boost
- Speed Boost
In dealing with Mawile (and Gengar), possible bans included: (example subject to change in regards to the other thread)
- Mawile as a whole
- Mawile + Mawilite
- Mawilite
In dealing with Aegislash, possible bans included:
- Aegislash as a whole
- King's Shield
- Aegislash + King's Shield
In each of these, how we determined what was most simple and logical boiled down to what caused the least amount of collateral damage while also being the most straightforward ban possible.
In the Blaziken case, it was determined that banning Speed Boost was not an option as it has been proven that not all Pokemon that receive Speed Boost are broken (ie Sharpedo and Yanmega are not broken with Speed Boost), therefore banning Speed Boost was not what was most logical. Banning the combination of Blaziken + Speed Boost created what we define as a complex ban (banning a part of two elements to create a whole ban), therefore banning the combination was not what was most simple. This forced us to conclude that the most simple and logical ban was to ban Blaziken.
In the Mawile case, it was determined that banning Mawile was not an option as it has been proven that Mawile alone is not a broken Pokemon, therefore banning Mawile was not what was most logical. Banning the combination of Mawile + Mawilite created what we define as a complex ban (banning a part of two elements to create a whole ban), therefore banning the combination was not what was most simple. Mawilite was proven to be broken on the only Pokemon that can make use of it (electing to ignore that it has no effect on any other Pokemon that may hold it), therefore this forced us to conclude that the most simple and logical ban was to ban Mawilite.
In the Aegislash case, it was determined that banning the combination of Aegislash + King's Shield created what we define as a complex ban (banning a part of two elements to create a whole ban), therefore banning the combination was not what was most simple. It could not be proven that King's Shield alone was broken, as it does not include the forme change that it does with Aegislash on the other Pokemon that receive it (Smeargle), as well it could not be proven that the Attack forme or Defense forme of Aegislash is what was broken, but rather the fact that it could change formes to be both offensive and defensive, therefore banning King's Shield was not what was most simple or logical. This forced us to conclude that the most simple and logical ban was to ban Aegislash.
Now, where this thread comes in is to address what we determine as most simple in regards to the Blaziken example. Do we want to change our tiering policy to conclude that banning the combination of a Pokemon + Ability is more desirable than concluding the most simple and logical ban to be the Pokemon as a whole? This would mean we would change our tiering policy to conclude that we should ban Blaziken + Speed Boost, rather than Blaziken. As well, we would conclude that we should ban Greninja + Protean as opposed to Greninja, and other examples could include Landorus + Sheer Force (and Excadrill + Sand Rush in BW, ignoring the recent BW tiering changes).
My personal opinion is that we should continue to strive to be most simple, as well Zarel made it clear that complex bans are undesirable in implementation.
PS: Any "slippery slope" arguments will be deleted on sight.
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