Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[North Gate]

I mean, when you realize the best mega Camerupt builds are trick room builds you kinda realize it's not that great. I guess Trick room is okay with the offense surge but this really shouldnt effect it's placing. Keep in C- pls

I use this thing to death, it's okay but not that great

 

[Jetplane]

I really think people should try Yawn on Mega Camerupt. Often times opposing teams only have one good switch in to Mega Camerupt and either put this switch in to sleep or risk having another pokemon be nuked if they switch out. Of course, this is a 50/50 but I would aruge that the Mega Camerupt player has an advantage in most scenarios because if they predict incorrectly their consequences aren't as bad as the opposing player predicting incorrectly the majoritynof the time.

 

[RufflesPro]

Everyone here is just basically theorymonning about Mega Camerupt, all of the arguments so far only argues its stats and moves. Lets try what bludz suggested and see where it stands in the meta.

Mega Camerupt's biggest problem is that it doesn't fit on any main, consistent playstlye, and it doesn't do good against most of them. It's too slow to be put on HO or Bulky Offense, it doesn't check a lot of Pokemon, isn't that bulky, and is extremely easy to wear down to be considered on Balanced, Bulky Balanced, or Semi-Stall. And unlike Shedinja, it doesn't provide anything for stall. The only good build that Mega Camerupt can fit on is Trick Room, but that's obviously not a consistent playstyle, and even then its much outclassed by Mega Heracross on TR simply because Mega Heracross does better overall in the meta and can function effectively without TR.

On the other hand, Mega Camerupt doesn't fair well against any of the main playstyles. Much like Heracross, against not SE or x4 SE, it can usually take ONE hit vs. HO, and deal heavy damage back, but that's about it, it can't switch in on anything and needs to sacrifice a teammate to come in safely. Against Stall, it's much like Mega Medicham, being completely walled by a Pokemon who is pretty much on every single stall build, Chansey (Mega Sableye for Mega Medicham), At best it can do some RestTalk shenanigans to have some longevity, but that's still mediocre at best and Chansey easily stalls it out. Against Balanced and Bulky Offense, it does a bit better, but still not that good. With stuff like Slowbro and Azumarill (always had a lot of usage obv.) gaining a lot of usage on Balanced and Bulky Offense, respectively, it really does not have the chance to come in on anything, easily worn down through hazards, momentum, and forced switches through a faster mon that can OHKO (common as hell) and usually take one hit, such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Slowbro, Manaphy, and even Starmie. Finally, against Semi-Stall is actually does pretty good, and that's only because it lacks something that can switch in multiple of times AND threaten it, outside of maybe Slowbro. Which is why I think Mega Camerupt does deserve the rank its currently in.

@ the move yawn: While it looks decent on paper, Mega Camerupt likes utility moves such as Will-o-Wisp and Stealth Rock much better since they provide a little bit more support to the team, making it a little bit more viable.

Overall, one of Mega Camerupt's biggest flaw is its dismal speed of 20, which is slower than Slowbro, Quagsire, and most importantly, Chansey, all which are commonly found on extremely bulky builds of Balanced, Semi-Stall, and Stall. All mega camerupt has for itself is that it hits really hard, but not nearly as hard as Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, or Mega Gardevoir, and only a little bit harder than Mega Heracross, which isn't a heavy hitter in the first place. And lets not forgot that Scald, bulky dragons, and bulky/offensive grounds are so common nowadays, this is probably the worst era of the metagame for Mega Camerupt.

 

[NotSoClutch]

252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 290-350 (71.7 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 313-370 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Sun: 345-406 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 279-328 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 384-453 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
240 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 349-412 (86.3 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I just wanted to post this so that everyone could compare the power of common wallbreakers being discussed. Camerupt actually keeps up relatively well, but is a little weaker than Adamant Heracross. The mew shown is given a neutral typing for each calc and has a neutral nature.

To add to the discussion, I actually do believe recent changes in the metagame favor Camerupt even if only slightly. Pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, and Clefable have all become more popular than they once were. I don't think these trends are enough to boost it's viability however because Pokemon like bulky Garchomp, rotom-w, and Keldeo still see significant usage. Until a dominant (or at least strong) team can bring Camerupt to the forefront of the meta, I think it's fine down in C-. The speed stat as many have stated make other wall breakers more appealing and mega Heracross is much tougher for a playstyle like stall to handle while possessing enough bulk and an easier to cover 4 times weakness to build around.

Once again just so everyone knows, C- is not a ranking for bad Pokemon. All Pokemon on the viability rankings should be usable at a high level of play. A lower ranking means that it's tougher to support. Pokemon in S and A are Pokemon that need little to no support to function, but there may be teams where they simply can't do the job that Camerupt can on a very specific team.

 

[Martin]

I saw talk about Camerupt not outpacing stuff, but even on a TR team you should be running speed anyway to reduce your reliance on TR somewhat (the minimum you should run is 124 (outpaces neutral Quag outside of TR and OHKOs with Earth Power after only a little prior damage)). I mean, speedy Wobbuffet is the best non-TR partner for Camerupt simply because it traps every defensive answer to Camerupt and turns them into Pursuit fodder with Tickle. While I think that it is a bit of a stretch to say that Camerupt is better in the metagame, people have been focusing way too much on its performance on its own. Lets face it, Camerupt is basically the only thing keeping TR alive as a playstyle at this point, so you have to consider a: the viability of TR as a whole (not that great), b: how big an effect Camerupt has on the viability of the playstyle (bigger than Cresselia) and c: how easy it is for the style to deal with its answers (very easy). If you consider all three of these, Camerupt is better suited to C than it is to either C- or C+ simply because Camerupt can deal with all of its answers with just 2 Pokémon (Tickle Wobb+a Pursuit trapper), leaving the team still wide open for other options to improve synergy etc. The rise of waters and tankchomp severely hold it back, as do the increase in Water-types, and the fact that it is a TR 'mon also holds it back severely, and this is reflected in the C ranking.

tl;dr version: evaluation of Camerupt; move to C

also for whoever said that Camerupt needs to deal with a 50:50 when facing the zard, you seem to be forgetting that Ancient Power takes a huge chunk out of both anyway

 

[Machi]

the viability of TR as a whole (not that great), b: how big an effect Camerupt has on the viability of the playstyle (bigger than Cresselia) and c: how easy it is for the style to deal with its answers (very easy). If you consider all three of these, Camerupt is better suited to C than it is to either C- or C+ simply because Camerupt can deal with all of its answers with just 2 Pokémon (Tickle Wobb+a Pursuit trapper), leaving the team still wide open for other options to improve synergy etc. The rise of waters and tankchomp severely hold it back, as do the increase in Water-types, and the fact that it is a TR 'mon also holds it back severely, and this is reflected in the C ranking.

tl;dr version: evaluation of Camerupt; move to C

also for whoever said that Camerupt needs to deal with a 50:50 when facing the zard, you seem to be forgetting that Ancient Power takes a huge chunk out of both anyway

It wasn't necessarily considered purely as a TR mon, it is one of its options, but it was more due to the merits brought up already regarding its typing and sheer power. In which case, those merits as noted above have remained relatively the same. Moving past that, however, with your emphasis on TR the problem therein lies with the actual playstyle being more difficult to pull off in this meta. On paper, it should do better with a more fast paced meta, taking advantage of the increased frailty all around.

However, in practice with Pokemon like Manaphy and Hoopa-U that essentially punish these slower builds significantly, and easily pulverize it when TR is runs out (assuming you'll be able to pull it off in the first place for most part Hoopa-U destroys most setters). Unfortunately, these are two mons which any slower build in general has difficulty playing around, and TR teams are practically candy to these mons. Of course, there are other mons but none as guilty as Manaphy and Hoopa-U IMO, ever since I slapped Hoopa-U on for instance I can say that most TR teams are an instant GG since they can't set up TR or easily find themselves at the mercy of Hoopa-U once the timer runs out.

TR teams are about as effective as a sticky web team, it does have its use but I just don't see it making much of a presence higher up the ladder (you'll encounter it less like Sticky Web as you go up -- as conditions become adverse to set it up or defensive teams begin to make a presence).

 

[kek123]

can we move on from mega-camerupt?
camerupt is set up fodder for almost every water mon azuamirill, manaphy, fertaligatr, mega gyrados and keldeo if its CM because they all force it to switch out. also it really hard to switch in camerumpt as it a so slow. Also many wall can switch into it whet they are arounds 50% hp because of it slow speed and it doesn't pressure walls to recover after switching in the first time so they can get rocks up or toxic some thing . there are so many better wall breaker in the meta and half of them don't take up a mega slot and all of then have better speed .Mega-Camerupt is so predictable it unreal it has like one set and thats it also being counter by other bigger treats counters isnt good what i mean by this is people may run latias for keldeo but by doing this they also counter camerupt witch mean Mega camerrupt doesn't get the factor of people arnt prepared for it like many other rare mons over all this meta is too prepared for mega-camerupt theres is to many common mon that counter it aswell as it to hard to switch in mega camerupt to an offensive meta. i think Mega-camerupt s fine at C-

 

[teamsnickers]

can we move on from mega-camerupt?
camerupt is set up fodder for almost every water mon azuamirill, manaphy, fertaligatr, mega gyrados and keldeo if its CM because they all force it to switch out. also it really hard to switch in camerumpt as it a so slow. Also many wall can switch into it whet they are arounds 50% hp because of it slow speed and it doesn't pressure walls to recover after switching in the first time so they can get rocks up or toxic some thing . there are so many better wall breaker in the meta and half of them don't take up a mega slot and all of then have better speed .Mega-Camerupt is so predictable it unreal it has like one set and thats it also being counter by other bigger treats counters isnt good what i mean by this is people may run latias for keldeo but by doing this they also counter camerupt witch mean Mega camerrupt doesn't get the factor of people arnt prepared for it like many other rare mons over all this meta is too prepared for mega-camerupt theres is to many common mon that counter it aswell as it to hard to switch in mega camerupt to an offensive meta. i think Mega-camerupt s fine at C-

You can say that about literally almost every fire type.... Mega Camerupt is a wallbreaker and a stall breaker and is really good and underrated at those things, Mega Camerupt has access to a solid movepool decent bulk and great typing in fire and ground. Sure it has some weaknesses that's why its in the C ranks in the first place, but Mega Camerupt is not a set up folder if you use it right. Mega Camerupt needs the proper support to be successful but with the proper support he's a antimeta monster with powerful stabs and a pain in the ass to switch in on, sure he lacks decent recovery but Mega Camerupt has access to pretty good typing (2 weaknesses 5 resist and a immunity) and is a stallbreaker that does work against trick room teams and has every few things that can switch into it. All of these qualities deserve AT LEAST C idk why this discussion lasted so long...Seventy sumed it up perfectly a few pages ago, and its just messed up that its ranked below mega banette....

Calcs showing common switchins don't like taking a fire blast
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 152-179 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 127-150 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 139-164 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Shokwav]

Infernape from C+ to B-. Interesting Pokemon, and its ability to counter and check Pokemon like Weavile, Heatran, and Bisharp can be invaluable. Its WoW set catches a lot of people by surprise.

I agree with this; I know that Infernape doesn't have the best reputation, but damn if that will o set doesn't put in work. It's like a slighty more offensive zard x that's more frail physically and doesn't try to setup, but instead just breaks stall with taunt + slack off. I think B- is a good place for it, as it's a good answer to bisharp, non-sand exca, ferro, heatran, lopunny (hjk only does like 50%-60%), scizor, weavile, kyub, skarm, ttar, rachi, klefki, serperior, etc.

 

[BlackBloodz]

I would like to make a nomination that was made while ago and most of the time and almost no one made a fair argument for this Pokemon.

A+ > S

Garchomp has been one of the most important Pokemon in the current meta ever since ORAS got released with it's tanky set (TankChomp) which is the most common set for it at the moment it allowed many teams (mainly offensive ones) to switch in and ditch some residual damage to many Pokemon that can be quite troublesome for those builds (eg: Mega Lopunny and Bisharp) and still maintaining a fair use to other builds as well for same reasons.

Moreover, Garchomp is a once versatile Pokemon especially when it comes down to surprise factor. It can run quite few effective sets which can lure in threats to weaken them for other teammates or break in many other builds;

Tank Chomp: The most common set by far, used as a switch in to most physical attackers that usually can't break through it unless it runs a coverage move. Already explained.

Sword Dance Sets: The SD sets that Garchomp can run is something which makes this Pokemon unique and versatile duo to the number of items it can hold such as Sash and Lum Berry. Life Orb and Salac Berry are two other items that are usually not seen that much but are effective in what they do and can surprise the opposing opponent easily. Yache Berry deserves a mention there and on all sets really.

Choice Scarf: Not one the best or common sets at the moment but it is still good, outspeeding scarf base 100 Pokemon or at +1 and revenge killing them is the main niche for this.

ChainChomp [ Life Orb with max special attack with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast and Earthquake]: This set used to be ran back in BW holding the Dragon Gem mainly to snipe some common switch ins to Garchomp such as Rotom-W, Hippowdon and Landorus-T and deal huge damage or even kill them. Now it's replaced with Life Orb which isn't as good, but it's still doing a good job. It might not be the best set, but it definitely worth a mention as one of its effective sets on the right teams.

Sash Lead: Usually used on Hyper Offensive teams (Offensive builds in general) which can set up rocks vs quite a number of teams and do some damage before it falls down. Doesn't get that much use lately duo to Mega Sableye being common and stopping it most of the time.


To sum everything up, Garchomp is a meta defining Pokemon in this meta which is usually thought of when it comes down to teambuilding to find some ways to break it (Tank Chomp), other sets can surprise the opponent and break down their builds.
​

 

[NotSoClutch]

You can say that about literally almost every fire type.... Mega Camerupt is a wallbreaker and a stall breaker and is really good and underrated at those things, Mega Camerupt has access to a solid movepool decent bulk and great typing in fire and ground. Sure it has some weaknesses that's why its in the C ranks in the first place, but Mega Camerupt is not a set up folder if you use it right. Mega Camerupt needs the proper support to be successful but with the proper support he's a antimeta monster with powerful stabs and a pain in the ass to switch in on, sure he lacks decent recovery but Mega Camerupt has access to pretty good typing (2 weaknesses 5 resist and a immunity) and is a stallbreaker that does work against trick room teams and has every few things that can switch into it. All of these qualities deserve AT LEAST C idk why this discussion lasted so long...Seventy sumed it up perfectly a few pages ago, and its just messed up that its ranked below mega banette....

Calcs showing common switchins don't like taking a fire blast
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 152-179 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 127-150 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 139-164 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Is it a stallbreaker though? A stallbreaker should be able to actually break a stall core. This means that it either has the ability to wear down walls over time and has reliable recovery so that it isn't worn down in the mean time or it is nearly unwallable and will often bust up a core with pure unbridled power. With almost every single stall team running Chansey, Camerupt just doesn't break stall. In fact, with it's pitiful speed it's actually easy for the opposing stall player to take advantage of Camerupt and heal up their Chansey.

As a wallbreaker (basically a stallbreaker that is more tailored toward breaking balance/semi-stall/bulky offense etc), it's decent, but since it can't outspeed anything, you need OHKOs to be efficient and sadly it's power and even coverage falls a bit short of something like Charizard Y (quick side note, if you were to invest in bulk similarly to how Camerupt does now, Charizard Y is actually bulkier on the spDef side of things) and while the power is comparable to something like mega Heracross, mega Heracross has the ability to setup swords dance and has a lot more in the way of coverage options.

The one (and I think only) thing worth talking about with Camerupt outside of Trick Room is it's electric type immunity. Camerupt is really good against three common electric types in OU: Manectric, Thundrus and Raikou. As such, Camerupt holds a small niche as a wall breaker that can be a stick in the mud against volt turn. The issue of course is it's lack of recovery, so eventually volt turn WILL wear down your Camerupt making it slightly less effective than say Hippo at completely shutting down volt turn and it makes for an easy double into a Lando/rotom-w.

Honestly, Camerupt is good, I don't think anyone will tell you otherwise, but when exactly do you put this guy on a team? Honestly, outside of a team in dire need of an electric check and a fire type wall breaker in one, you are generally going to use something else.

I would like to make a nomination that was made while ago and most of the time and almost no one made a fair argument for this Pokemon.

A+ > S

Garchomp has been one of the most important Pokemon in the current meta ever since ORAS got released with it's tanky set (TankChomp) which is the most common set for it at the moment it allowed many teams (mainly offensive ones) to switch in and ditch some residual damage to many Pokemon that can be quite troublesome for those builds (eg: Mega Lopunny and Bisharp) and still maintaining a fair use to other builds as well for same reasons.

Moreover, Garchomp is a once versatile Pokemon especially when it comes down to surprise factor. It can run quite few effective sets which can lure in threats to weaken them for other teammates or break in many other builds;

Tank Chomp: The most common set by far, used as a switch in to most physical attackers that usually can't break through it unless it runs a coverage move. Already explained.

Sword Dance Sets: The SD sets that Garchomp can run is something which makes this Pokemon unique and versatile duo to the number of items it can hold such as Sash and Lum Berry. Life Orb and Salac Berry are two other items that are usually not seen that much but are effective in what they do and can surprise the opposing opponent easily. Yache Berry deserves a mention there and on all sets really.

Choice Scarf: Not one the best or common sets at the moment but it is still good, outspeeding scarf base 100 Pokemon or at +1 and revenge killing them is the main niche for this.

ChainChomp [ Life Orb with max special attack with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast and Earthquake]: This set used to be ran back in BW holding the Dragon Gem mainly to snipe some common switch ins to Garchomp such as Rotom-W, Hippowdon and Landorus-T and deal huge damage or even kill them. Now it's replaced with Life Orb which isn't as good, but it's still doing a good job. It might not be the best set, but it definitely worth a mention as one of its effective sets on the right teams.

Sash Lead: Usually used on Hyper Offensive teams (Offensive builds in general) which can set up rocks vs quite a number of teams and do some damage before it falls down. Doesn't get that much use lately duo to Mega Sableye being common and stopping it most of the time.


To sum everything up, Garchomp is a meta defining Pokemon in this meta which is usually thought of when it comes down to teambuilding to find some ways to break it (Tank Chomp), other sets can surprise the opponent and break down their builds.
​

You also forget to mention the scarfchomp set that, despite its drop in popularity, is still really nice for cleaning up a game. Scarf chomp outpaces almost every relevant Pokemon in the game, hitting an absurd 499 speed which is enough to outrun mega pert, +1 jolly mega zard X, +2 mega tyranitar, +1 adamant mega Sharpedo, Venusaur in sun, Omastar in rain and every base 100 or slower scarfer. This is of course while also carrying Garchomp's great fire, ground, rock, dragon coverage.

 

[kek123]

You can say that about literally almost every fire type.... Mega Camerupt is a wallbreaker and a stall breaker and is really good and underrated at those things, Mega Camerupt has access to a solid movepool decent bulk and great typing in fire and ground. Sure it has some weaknesses that's why its in the C ranks in the first place, but Mega Camerupt is not a set up folder if you use it right. Mega Camerupt needs the proper support to be successful but with the proper support he's a antimeta monster with powerful stabs and a pain in the ass to switch in on, sure he lacks decent recovery but Mega Camerupt has access to pretty good typing (2 weaknesses 5 resist and a immunity) and is a stallbreaker that does work against trick room teams and has every few things that can switch into it. All of these qualities deserve AT LEAST C idk why this discussion lasted so long...Seventy sumed it up perfectly a few pages ago, and its just messed up that its ranked below mega banette....

Calcs showing common switchins don't like taking a fire blast
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 152-179 (47 - 55.4%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 127-150 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 139-164 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

you say?.. wall breaking power out classed and out speeded
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 144-169 (48.1 - 56.5%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy in Sun: 156-185 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(''You can say that about literally almost every fire type...'') zard x zard y secoundly why do you need literally about almost all in a row but this inst an English lesson so ('' great typing in fire and ground'') no it not really when your quad weak to water the most common type (''but Mega Camerupt is not a set up folder if you use it right'') all you have to do is sack and mon then bring in your water types set up sweeper

Finally let me just point out Mega-camerupt is RU and RU for a reason

 

[Albacore]

Yeah Chomp probably deserves S at this point, I honestly feel like it's about as defining as Clefable currently, and arguably even more splashable. TankChomp is so widely used that people tend to forget how ridiculous offensive sets can be to switch into, both Sub SD and LO SD are really potent against more balanced teams, especially since Clefable is more often seen running 172 Def w/ Magic Guard which really can't switch into it that well, Phys Def Lando-T is less common nowadays and isn't even that great an answer to it, Hippo is more commonly seen running Stone Edge than Whirlwind or Toxic which means it gets set up on, and even if it does have Whirlwind it takes a huge chunk from +2 EQ or Outrage. Scarf is also really cool, and I'd argue it's about as good a scarfer than Lando-T, it does lose U-turn but gains a fantastic secondary STAB, a neat Fire resist and Water neutrality, and the ability to revenge kill +1 XZard. If Tank Chomp alone falls short from S rank (which it probably does), its other sets combined with it bring it up to that level imo.

thoughts on other stuff :

I honestly find choiced Victini sets to be kinda bad atm, the only things keeping it in B+ IMO are mix LO/EBelt with Glaciate and WoW+Taunt. Victini is one of these mons that's okay defensively and offensively but just not good enough in either departement to be that notable, yeah it has useful resists but it's SR weak and Pusuit weak, and yeah it has a very powerful V-Create and Bolt Strike but its other moves aren't that good, its speed is okay but not that great, so B rank seems pretty appropriate for an all-round decent mon with neat applications, but which isn't as easy to fit on teams as some people would make you think.

Gothitelle in B+ seems fair, I certainly think it should be above Quagsire and Chansey given that it's just as if not more important on stall than them, and unlike the latter two can actually be run on any other playstyle than full stall. The idea that it's deadweight against offense is kinda silly imo when even offense has to run some bulky stuff so as to not fall flat on its face vs certain threats, which obviously acts as food for Gothitelle, and the ability to trick a Scarf onto a setup sweeper or wallbreaker, or really anything besides a Mega or a Choice item user can be really useful. A team against which Gothitelle is legitimately useless is probably going to have huge problems vs cratin Pokemon, which you can just use alongside Gothitelle.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

tbh the only reason why it wasnt S rank a month ago was because everyone was dickriding its TankChomp set and forgot how versatile and good his offensive sets are. tankchomp is not an s rank set for me

i honestly think TankChomp isnt super great as everyone says, i mean i still think its lack of recovery baffles me in why people use this thing so much, Dragon Tail has a chance to miss (ik thats kinda nitpicky but thats kinda a big prob) and its predictability of switching in is pretty easy to figure out. The only mons that i think it just outright beats is shit like Scizor, MLop, Tflame, and mons that just lose to EQ like magnezone and heatran. not saying it sucks but that set has a shitload of flaws to be considered one of the best sets in the game.

anyways i really only think it should be s because most (or all of its good sets) are A+/A rank sets. while i think its still not on the rank of things like Clef or Mana, i do agree its like better then A+. i dont think a single mon in A+ has the versatility and viability in all of its sets tbh

its sd lo set is something i personally havent used, but i know that most walls not named Skarm cant beat it and anything slower then it usually dies from a +2 STAB LO EQ. its fraility and LO damage is probably its biggest flaw ofc but this thing is actually quite fearsome imo.

its offensive sr set is eh, its basically the lo set without lo and an extra place for SR. tbh i wouldnt see why you would use it over Tank but beats me

sub sd is another A+ set that practically makes Garchomp hard to kill on HO once Sub is up, and it even gives balance a run for its money. tbh i dont use chomp much but Sub also allows to not be hit by status, and some other shit i dont remember. Sub is probably one of the most useful underused moves in the meta and you can slap it on like 50% of all setup sweepers that dont have roost. sub np thundurus for example, is actually an underrated threat that i used to use and it worked much better then i thought.

idk Garchomp has sets to any of your pleasures from a wall to a sweeper to a support mon. i would nom this to S rank tbh
its versatility is only matched of that of Clefable tbh.

ik im kinda echoing alba but i mean there isnt much to say and there isnt a reason to not bring it up now

pretty great balance between a great offensive and defensive typing.

idk what im saying anymore

yeah

s rank

woo

 

[DennisEG]

Some thought bout Chomp to S rank, i really really really dont think is S rank material, as people mentioned above Chomp is so versatil in the meta at the moment but that doesnt mean should be S rank, i think A+ is a solid rank for this sandshark. The tank chomp is the most usufull set being this very vulnerable to sableye, rotom, bulky mons in general, help a lot checking/dealing damage for free to all phisycal type attackers there but that's it, still loses to strong physica attacker like Ice punch medicham for example, the sd lum/life orb/salac set is dangerous but only able to get one kill due to cannot set up in front of every single fat mon like risk scald burn for slowbro or taking a heavy hit from hippo/gliscor/clef etc, so yeah i think A+ rank is enough and fair rank.

Speaking of medicham yeah i support the A rank, this thing with the dual priority is able to revenge frails/weaken mons so speed isnt than necessary, but if this thing had Gallade-Mega base speed would be top threat without a doubt, Pure power is such a broken ability to begin with (RIP Mega Mawile) and to increase the power medi have access to HJK which is the stronger fighting type attack in the metagame and coming from a base 100 + pure power make this thing threatning, BUT with a lot of sableye/slowbros running around the use decrease a bit, until people of OLT realize that medi have no switching is your not packing one of the check mentioned b4, is such nice mon against balance/bulky offense/offense/HO, so yeah i support being A rank.

 

[thesecondbest]

Not having chomp in S is like not having Heatran in S in DPP. It fits so many roles - it can be bulky, it can set up rocks, it can be a scarfer etc etc. It has made things like Banded TFlame unusable solely due to its sheer ubiquity and has basically defined the tier. It's versatile and effective in the various roles. I won't rehash what others said or what I have said in past posts, but Garchomp is at least as good as Clef, trading reliable recovery for speed and power. I don't see many counter arguments that actually take chomp's versatility into account, so it's probably about time the king ascended (or queen I'm not sexist lol)

 

[Halcyon.]

Not having chomp in S is like not having Heatran in S in DPP. It fits so many roles - it can be bulky, it can set up rocks, it can be a scarfer etc etc. It has made things like Banded TFlame unusable solely due to its sheer ubiquity and has basically defined the tier. It's versatile and effective in the various roles. I won't rehash what others said or what I have said in past posts, but Garchomp is at least as good as Clef, trading reliable recovery for speed and power. I don't see many counter arguments that actually take chomp's versatility into account, so it's probably about time the king ascended (or queen I'm not sexist lol)

Comparing DPP Heatran and Garchomp is a joke. Heatran lures in a ton of shit with shuca/passho sets, works as a lead, anti-lead, revenge killer, SDef wall, torment tran, and has access to Explosion. Garchomp has its tank set, SD sets, Sash, and scarf (which is really bad and idk why people are hyping that to be some god-like revenge killer). Garchomp is, in many cases, a worse choice than Landorus-T due to Lando's superior match-up against Ground types, namely Excadrill, which offense struggles against outside of priority.

Garchomps best sets, imo, are its offensive ones. Sub SD and LO/Lum SD being the most effective. But these sets are nothing S rank worthy. Effective, yes, but even when combined with the effectiveness of Tank Chomp, it is not S rank. The SD sets dislike the rise in Unaware stall, and can struggle against offensive builds as well. They favor a balanced environment, which is not really the one we have right now. Offensive Chomp, while difficult to switch into (for the most part), is easily revenge killed due to its slightly above average speed tier.

Sash is pretty good against offense, but is complete Sableye and Clefable bait against stall. Good, but highly match-up reliant.

Comparing the versatility of ORAS Clefable, DPP Heatran, and BW Jirachi to Garchomp right now is just not fair. Its versatility is simply overhyped for some reason due to the splashability of its Tank set, the general effectiveness of SD, and the effectiveness in certain matchups of Sash. But three good sets do not make a Pokemon great. There are safe switch-ins to Garchomp 99% of the time. Clef beats it 100% unless its a weird Iron Head SD stall ct. Keldeo and Latios and Mega Mane and many other offense mons will always be able to revenge kill it. This is not true of other S ranks. Heatran is not a 100% counter to Clefable. Ferrothorn is not a counter to every Manaphy. Zard X completely cripples its most common switch-ins with wisp EQ sets. Sableye does have guaranteed switch-ins, but I don't really agree with it being S rank anyway so whatever. Point is that nothing is safe against these mons. Their versatility is not simply having effective sets, its having effective sets that essentilly give them zero safe switch-ins. Garchomp does not have that, and is therefore less viable imo.

 

[Jaguar360]

Point is that nothing is safe against these mons. Their versatility is not simply having effective sets, its having effective sets that essentilly give them zero safe switch-ins. Garchomp does not have that, and is therefore less viable imo.

I don't know if I'm missing something here, but what safe switch-ins does Garchomp have? Both Magic Guard and Unaware Clefable lose to Life Orb (not the Special variant) or SD Mega Chomp, Togekiss loses to any variant with Stone Edge, Quagsire loses to Mixed Garchomp, Mega Alt doesn't take a +2 EQ that well and Toxic cripples it on TankChomp (albeit support sets can just Heal Bell to get rid of it), SD sets break through Gliscor, Slowbro is vulnerable to Toxic and needs Ice Beam to beat SD (the Lum Berry set especially since it can't cheese its way through with Scald) and Hippodown needs Whirlwind to beat Garchomp's SD sets and is vulnerable to Toxic. So what switch-ins?

 

[Srn]

I don't know if I'm missing something here, but what safe switch-ins does Garchomp have? Both Magic Guard and Unaware Clefable lose to Life Orb (not the Special variant) or SD Mega Chomp, Togekiss loses to any variant with Stone Edge, Quagsire loses to Mixed Garchomp, Mega Alt doesn't take a +2 EQ that well and Toxic cripples it on TankChomp (albeit support sets can just Heal Bell to get rid of it), SD sets break through Gliscor, Slowbro is vulnerable to Toxic and needs Ice Beam to beat SD (the Lum Berry set especially since it can't cheese its way through with Scald) and Hippodown needs Whirlwind to beat Garchomp's SD sets and is vulnerable to Toxic. So what switch-ins?

Slowbro is vulnerable to Toxic and needs Ice Beam to beat SD

I really hope you don't actually use toxic on helm chomp. Teams that are actually bothered by toxic will have cleric support or some status absorber like gliscor/mg clef (which tank chomp cannot touch) or will have enough offensive pressure so that the game ends before toxic damage matters. And don't bring mega chomp into the equation, SD mega chomp has no switch-ins to begin with and mega chomp and garchomp are just different pokemon altogether, with different rankings, much like mega scizor and scizor.

You can claim that between SD and LO and special and lum and sash and toxic that garchomp has "no switch-ins" but it's the same story with mega metagross tbh. LanT falls to ice punch, slowbro to grass knot, rachi to earthquake, msciz to hp fire, ferro to hammer arm, skarm to hammer arm, rotom-w to zen headbutt, mandibuzz to thunderpunch etc etc etc I can go on and on but why is mega metagross A+? Why did it move down, and why does it rarely actually break past teams singlehandedly despite supposedly doing so on paper? It's because with a simple combination of two or so mons you shut down most of what it can do. metagross will be hard pressed to break past ferro+slowbro. In the same way, garchomp will not be making it past clef+skarm. common balance cores are simply more than enough to stop chomp, no matter how you theorymon that's just how it works out in practice :L can't really put it another way.

Anyways, I agree with 90% of what user: Halcyon. has said.
Offensive sets are the most effective imo, and they thrive in a balanced environment. Tank chomp is certainly not an A+ set and not more splashable than clef just because you see it as the sole check to excadrill, talonflame, bisharp, scizor, lando-t, tyranitar, mega lop, mega medi, mega metagross, volturn, jirachi, and heatran on every team that's on the ladder made by some dumbass who can't build for shit. Ultimately, it's not hard for every single playstyle to pack checks for any kind of garchomp they'll come up against. Offense has lanT, keld, weavile, mamo, thundurus, azu and that's not even going into revenge killers. Balance got clef, ferro, hippo, slowbro, skarm, quag, mega altaria, mega sableye man the options are really endless.
No pokemon in S has that many options against it (cept sab, any fairy will do, but I don't think that should be in S either), except for clef which kind of just clicks t-wave and sets up on its checks. Garchomp is simply not as difficult to handle as other S ranks and should thus stay A+.

 

[Xander of Nohr]

I don't know if I'm missing something here, but what safe switch-ins does Garchomp have? Both Magic Guard and Unaware Clefable lose to Life Orb (not the Special variant) or SD Mega Chomp, Togekiss loses to any variant with Stone Edge, Quagsire loses to Mixed Garchomp, Mega Alt doesn't take a +2 EQ that well and Toxic cripples it on TankChomp (albeit support sets can just Heal Bell to get rid of it), SD sets break through Gliscor, Slowbro is vulnerable to Toxic and needs Ice Beam to beat SD (the Lum Berry set especially since it can't cheese its way through with Scald) and Hippodown needs Whirlwind to beat Garchomp's SD sets and is vulnerable to Toxic. So what switch-ins?

You're missing his point. Yes, Garchomp might be able to muscle through a couple of it's common switch-ins, but then gets easily stopped on its tracks by anything able to eat up a hit or outright revenge kill it, as figuring out which set it's running and what said set is prone to is barely even a challenge.

Just my two cents, but I don't think Garchomp is S-Rank material right now.

 

[Acamm130]

Gaechomp is easily s imo. With a heavily offensive meta, tank chomp plays a key role in stopping volt turn and strong physical attackers in general. Plus, any of its other sets, offensive or even mega, are sure to catch your opponent off guard as the bulky set is basically what everyone runs their garchomp as (when was the last time you saw a scarf chomp?). I mean, the only thing I can think of that consistantly switches in and deals with this thing is Spdef skarm and kiss (if lacking stone edge/pjab/iron head). Anyway, chomp is definitely too centralizing to not be S.

Another nom I would like to make is...
Talonflame
A+ -> S
Now I know that several people won't agree with this but it kind of makes sense if you think about it. For one, it can cripple/deal with all of its checks and counters with the combination of will-o-wisp and natural gift. While it is weak to rocks, its resistances to bug, fire, steel, grass, fighting, and fairy coupled with the fact that with priority flying type attacks it can afford to invest a lot in bulk and can get hp back with priority roost makes it a solid defensive check to several key threats in the meta. With the offensive meta, talon is a fearsome sweeper/revenge killer that can not only sweep but check and cripple a large portion of the current meta and, like garchomp, I feel that it is too centralizing to not be in S (especially since its recent surge of usage).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

There are safe switch-ins to Garchomp 99% of the time. Clef beats it 100% unless its a weird Iron Head SD stall ct. Keldeo and Latios and Mega Mane and many other offense mons will always be able to revenge kill it. This is not true of other S ranks. Heatran is not a 100% counter to Clefable. Ferrothorn is not a counter to every Manaphy. Zard X completely cripples its most common switch-ins with wisp EQ sets. Sableye does have guaranteed switch-ins, but I don't really agree with it being S rank anyway so whatever. Point is that nothing is safe against these mons. Their versatility is not simply having effective sets, its having effective sets that essentilly give them zero safe switch-ins. Garchomp does not have that, and is therefore less viable imo.

Let me just respond to this, I've been advocating for Garchomp to move up for a couple of months. This isn't fair, Manaphy, Charizard-X and Clefable have no counters, true. They can tweak their set to beat any mon... But Garchomp can do this as well... It's sheer versatility makes it very hard to switch in and revenge kill. Mentioning Keldeo, Latios and Mega Mane is kind of silly, when Sub-Salac beats all three of them, or did you just forget about that set? It's not just that it has a large variation of sets to choose from, it also has multiple options to its sets. Wether it's tankchomp, who can run toxic, stone edge, fire blast ect as options. Scarf running stone edge, outrage, fire blast. SD running substitute, stone edge, iron head ect to handle what it wants to handle. There is no 100% counter to any of Garchomps sets.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even Clefable isn't safe.

 

[Martin]

To add to the Clef calc above, Iron Tail does that for non-LO variants:

252 Atk Garchomp Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 192-228 (48.8 - 58%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I'm personally neutral on chomper as it does have heavy competition as both an offensive and a defensive ground-type and dragon-type, but its versatility even beats that of freaking Clefable. Sorry if this post feels short, but I don't really have much else to say that either hasn't been covered or I have enough experience with to comment on. I'll just say that IMO, Iron Head base chomp is bad as all of its targets take enough from EQ anyway if its LO and it misses out on KOs that Iron Tail scores if you forgo LO.

 

[Kibblecat]

Let me just respond to this, I've been advocating for Garchomp to move up for a couple of months. This isn't fair, Manaphy, Charizard-X and Clefable have no counters, true. They can tweak their set to beat any mon... But Garchomp can do this as well... It's sheer versatility makes it very hard to switch in and revenge kill. Mentioning Keldeo, Latios and Mega Mane is kind of silly, when Sub-Salac beats all three of them, or did you just forget about that set? It's not just that it has a large variation of sets to choose from, it also has multiple options to its sets. Wether it's tankchomp, who can run toxic, stone edge, fire blast ect as options. Scarf running stone edge, outrage, fire blast. SD running substitute, stone edge, iron head ect to handle what it wants to handle. There is no 100% counter to any of Garchomps sets.

252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 187-222 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even Clefable isn't safe.

When comparing Chomp to other S Rank mons, and saying that it can also 'tweak' its set to beat anything, people tend to miss the vital distinction between 'tweaking' the same set and running different sets altogether. You're right, that the S Rank mons can tweak their sets or play with a final moveslot to work around checks. But Chomp doesn't do this, and you've actually picked some pretty poor examples to support your point too. Chomp doesn't, on any set, pick out from an open moveslot to annoy things that would otherwise check it, in the same way that Clefable can choose between Flamethrower'ing steel switch ins or spreading paralysis, or that TG Manaphy can pick it's attacks based around breaking for it's teammates. Whereas Chomp just doesn't do this on any one of it's sets, but rather, takes a different set on entirely. If it needs to beat faster things, it has to change it's function entirely by running scarf or salac. If it wants to beat bulkier walls and balance cores, it has to set up SD. If it wants to have any chance of checking bird spam or volt-turn for very long, it usually has to be tank chomp. And, even then, most of those things will have a way around it.

Now, I can't call your examples and justifications poor without explaining myself, so, sorry, but here goes:

Keldeo, Latios and Mega-Man aren't all 'beaten' flat out by Sub Salac. Keldeo isn't even close to 1HKO'd - 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 178-210 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - so even with some prior damage, you still need to be running scarf or already have your Salac up (and hope that Keldeo itself isn't scarf'd). Salac Chomp is very threatened by attacks from both of the other two too (draco/psyshock from Lati, HP Ice from Manectric. Plus, Chomp has to get the salac berry eaten before it can hope to win; anyone who sits there breaking subs against chomp is making a very bad play, especially when it's so easy to scout for that set with a knock off user capable of breaking sub. Not to mention, that set does lose to Clefable, because without the life orb it can't easily 2HKO, and if you're trying to sub, it becomes a lot more difficult to read your opponents plays once they work out that you're trying to get a Salac off. Not to mention, you need to guarantee the kill after subbing yourself into Salac range, because Clef no longer needs to worry about damage calcs when firing a Moonblast at you. Neither of Latios and Mega Man are going to switch in on any chomp set, be it Salac or other, but both can force chomp out easily unless he's Scarfed, so, they're worthwhile mentions when considering Chomps matchup against offense, not 'kind of silly'.
TankChomps final slot is versatile, but one's kidding oneself if they think that he has everything he wants outside of that moveslot. The choice between Fire Blast, Toxic and Endure isn't exactly a 'yes look I get all these extra options' kind of choice, it's a 'right I need to choose between matching a bit more favourably against x and x'. And, in that regard, all Chomp beats with Fire Blast is (Mega) Scizor. And only non-bulky variants at that. Before people cry Skarm, here: 0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. And: 0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. And the most common Ferro spread, too, for good measure: 0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 180-216 (51.1 - 61.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.

Iron head isn't a viable thing. On any set. Period. (Nor is Iron Tail, really, it's not reliable and would exist solely for that purpose when any team should really have a solid answer to Clefable that isn't Garchomp too). What does it hit? So, it get's a 10 BP boost against Clef when compared to a STAB EQ... but EQ already 2HKO's Max Def Clef, as you stated. Again, SD choosing between Stone Edge and Sub (and Fire Fang/Blast, if you fancy) isn't an advantage in the way that you put it. Moreover, it's choosing between protection from the ever common WoW cripplers (at the cost of another turn of set up, no less), and getting a bigger hit on a few things that are already hit suitably hard with a Dragon Claw. I wouldn't exactly call Mandibuzz of all things relevant enough to influence an S-Rank decision, and Thundy/Torn/TF are all hit hard enough by Dragon Claw...

With regards to the 'no guaranteed counters' thing, I'd say your quite mistaken:

SpD Skarm: 0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ferro, under rain: 0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery Say what you will about rain's own viability, it's a prime place to put Ferrothorn, and when preparing for rain, any team should be ready to see Ferrothorn, and, well, when under rain, Ferro beats Chomp easily. This doesn't even factor in Leech Seed or Protect turns.

Pretty standard Hippo: 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 149-177 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, switches in on set up, and whirlwinds. Can't 1HKO even at +2
(Non LO: 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 115-136 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery)

SpD Klefki (with Prankster Magnet Rise):
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 94-112 (29.5 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Slowbro: 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery barely 2HKOs after an SD. Chomp takes close to 50% from a scald, so probably loses factoring in a turn to set up and LO/rocks damage.

Mega Venusaur: 0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 109-130 (30.2 - 36.1%) -- 48.9% chance to 3HKO. Again, relying on set up to even 2HKO, and thats not accounting for Leech Seed and Giga Drain.

Gliscor: 252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 94-112 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Poison Heal Again, comes close to a guaranteed 2HKO with set up after poison heal, but that doesn't factor in protect/sub turns form Gliscor. Chomp just plain relies on set up.

All of these guaranteed counter at least one Garchomp set - you can't base an argument against a counter on bad plays, and letting Chomp get to +4 or +6 is definitely a bad play when you have one of these available. Most of the things I've just listed have reliable recovery too, and only come even close to losing to Chomp after set up which gives them a turn to either switch in, or just top themselves off if Chomp tries to set up in their faces. Most of them have an answer to Chomp themselves too; Bro nearly 2HKOs, Venusaur 3HKOs which means that Chomp can only win if he's magically at 100% on every matchup. Hippo can whirlwind out or take off roughly 35% with an EQ. Heck, if we're talking niche picks, Hippo can even run Ice Fang, although probably then runs a risk due to Rough Skin chip damage.

In that regard, I think a move up for Chomp now is even less timely than it would have been a few weeks ago; Hippo's rising in popularity in the current meta, which is a great stop to most Chomp sets, all of which rely on set up to beat it (if they even can at all). Klefki's as popular as it ever has been, but in the last few months people have clocked onto Magnet Rise, which means that all Chomp can really rely on to hit it at all hard is Fire Fang (in other words, Chomp can't function without a good answer to Klefki to support him). Not to mention the somewhat obvious rise in popularity of Weavile, who takes a minimum of 95% off of non-tankchomp sets with Ice Shard, and flat 1HKO's all chomps with Icicle Crash (i.e., long story short, the only situation that Chomp wins there is if it's at 100%, or Weavile tries to switch in). Heck, Mamoswine has the same properties when considering chomp, just with enough power to guarantee the 1HKO with Ice Shard against non-tank variants of chomp, and altho Mamo is a less common and less viable component of most teams these days, you can't say that Chomp should be any less prepared for it than Weavile.

Ultimately, the current metagame is very prepared for Garchomp (heck, I just named basically every go-to defensive choice in the current meta bar Clefable because you already covered that calc yourself), and while he can be very threatening, he's extremely reliant on multiple kinds of set up. And, each set is vulnerable to something different; once the opponent works out what set Chomp has, the cards are all on the table in that regard. Pick 6 random mons from A-, A or A+, and chances are you've got a way around him. He's a valid concern when team building, sure, but unlike the current S Rankers, if you build any sort of thought through team, chances are you've covered all of his sets somewhere without taking a dedicated 'I need x to beat x variant of Chomp' sort of decision.

I guess I think the most important question is: can we really pin down and justify the fact that Chomp is notably more threatening and viable a team choice than everything else in A+? If not, he's probably not S. In my opinion, that's the exact case - he's another one of the definition A+ pokemon for me.

EDIT: Just realised my Klefki calc had rain on... hmm. Point still stands when Fire Blast is a 4HKO after lefties (3HKO with LO) :/

 

[TPP]

I'm gonna support Garchomp

to S rank

This thing is easily one of the best stealth rock users in the game. It's got fairly good typing (only weak to ice, dragon and fairy), and the ability to punish any physical attacker is extremely good. This thing has made it much harder to use physical attackers that don't have access to recovery. This includes Mega Metagross, which was booming as a S Rank mon not too long ago, and Mega Lopunny, which is one of the bigger threats to offensive teams. It can also be a great answer to Azumarill, as with the BD set, Aqua Jet won't kill Garchomp, and Garchomp can use EQ and then force the double knock out. It's really good as a support mon with its tank set, and this allows its other sets (life orb, lum SD and scarf) to have that surprise factor, and finding out it's an offensive chomp late game, is really scary. It's also able to punish hazard removers as Rapid Spin users take 29% from the chip damage, and then Defog users can get phased out. This includes Latios and Latias, who get phased out and take massive damage (close to 60%) from Dragon Tail. It's able to punish so many mons in the tier, and keeping it A+ is just underestimating its usefulness.

> S