ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[empire370]

Please don't be too mad at me for posting Omfuga but why has nobody posted (unless i somehow missed a post) about Glalie using spikes. It's a terrifying spiker and stall breaker for me to face because it smashes defoggers and it's not like any spinner except forry can switch into it. The other thing is it can use super fang and taunt (as well as spikes) on the same set to completely dismantle the majority defensive cores. Of course being a stall player I tend to fantasize (not healthy I know) about ways to most efficiently and viciously brutalize my own stall teams so I always overprepare for stall and give too much credit to stall breakers. But super dang and spikes definitely give glalie a niche (it's not like froslass as a suicide lead for ho it can fit on more bulky offense to get a good matchup with slower defensive teams). I'm not saying glalie is b or c or unranked worthy im just saying a goalie discussion isn't complete without a mention of spikes and superfang.

that's why it will stay c because it still has niches but the the Glaie discussion should be complete now hopefully

 

[Revelation]

I would like to support the raising of NON MEGA Sharpedo from B to B+. With its recent mega evolution, many people have forgotten what Sharpedo can do without evolving. The first thing that will stand out to most is its excellent Attack stat that, when coupled with life orb, can turn Sharpedo into a potent revenge killer because of access to priority in Aqua Jet, though Speed Boost normally takes out any need for Aqua Jet, except revenge killing Pokemon with priority. Did I mention Speed Boost. With only a single boost, Sharpedo can out speed nearly the entire un boosted metagame, bar Mega Aerodactyl. Back to attack power, though, what normally makes people choose Mega Sharpedo over regular is because of Strong Jaw, which further boosts the power of biting moves. But then again, Non Mega Sharpedo with Life Orb has a stronger waterfall and Aqua jet. Also, please don't bring up defenses here, as when Sharpedo mega evolves, it's defense just goes from bad to slightly less bad. Because of Sharpedo's stronger Water STAB, and because it doesn't use a valuable mega slot, I think that it should get the boost to B+. Feel free to disagree!

I'm sure somebody posted further back showing when Mega Sharp's extra bulk mattered.

 

[YABO]

Actually, the defense boost is really critical in a lot of situations due to the fact that Normal Sharpedo's Defense is so abysmal. The percentage increase is absurdly important in allowing Sharpedo to live hits like Lucario and Entei's Extreme Speeds. Another Pokemon Normal Shark fails to check is Feraligatr where Sharpedo can resist its entire moveset and retaliate with an absurdly powerful Crunch. While Normal Sharpedo does have merits over Mega in some instances (stronger water stab, no mega slot), it is still vital to consider even the slightest defensive utility that Mega Sharpedo brings to a team when Normal Sharpedo has none.

 

[empire370]

I agree with frosslass and tangrowth rising up to a- I'm not so sure with venomoth ranking up steath rocks makes sure pritory moves will stop it like entei extreme speed but tinted lens makes sure that it's not walled by things that otherwise would wall it.
I never been a fan of goodra but c rank I don't know goodra does face competition from a few dragon types but still has potential I say move it to c rank for now

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I been thinking bout this but before we make some changes I think we should discuss what's keeping infernape from ranking up besides garbage defences

Infernape isnt moving mostly because while it has so many sets that it can preform well with, it has no sets that it excels with.
Also a few smogon tips since you are new 1. Double posting especially when both posts are basically one liners will quickly get you banned if u do it consistently 2. When posting in vr you need a bit more reasoning especially if you are making a nom 3. no need to post a response just to agree and add nothing new just like the post. I hope that didnt come off as condescending because I am always glad to see new smogon users and I have talked to u in uu chat so I know you are a nice guy but when you first start smogon its very important to lurk a lot before you start posting consistently that way you have a good idea of what posts in a certain thread are supposed to look like. Finally welcome to smogon :]

 

[jjoshcja]

It's worth noting that special/mixed LO normal shark can kill shit that Mshark just flat out cannot touch (looking at you tangrowth and frens), is a recursive threat, and has considerably more immediate power

It's arguably as good as Mshark even discounting the mega stone cost so personaly I would place them at most one rank apart (aka mshark x, shark x-).

Then again I'd also question what the hell Mshark is doing in A+. It requires a dedicated team to compete with the other top tier mega's and even on a team made for it you often ask "man why am I using Mshark instead of NShark + Other Mega/Gatr + Other Mega". It's really damn good but it's not nearly splashable enough to go over A-/B+ on its own merits.

 

[Malin]

Then again I'd also question what the hell Mshark is doing in A+. It requires a dedicated team to compete with the other top tier mega's and even on a team made for it you often ask "man why am I using Mshark instead of NShark + Other Mega/Gatr + Other Mega". It's really damn good but it's not nearly splashable enough to go over A-/B+ on its own merits.

I agree with that. Mega Shark simply isn't A+ rank material. It is certainly one of the best late game cleaners in this meta, but even then, it does need too much support to function well.

Mega Shark can't revenge kill with ease as Mega Aero or Mega Bee can; it can't get past his many checks and often needs to mega evolve before doing significantly damage to the things it is supposed to kill. This is important: there are things that Mega Pedo can only deal after +1 (such as a weakned Cobalion), but then you need that first turn Protect to have enough speed: this gives your opp chance to switch on something else, use a Substitute, setup his own thing, etc. You can have something else to deal with it in your team, but then you are overlapping functions, and that's not what a A+ mon should be doing; while it can check things like psychic types and even take some resisted hits, you really don't wanna to switch your regular (mega) pedo on those attacks, since it have an abysmal bulk and u probably wanna survive common priorities late game; you wanna go Adamant bc of power and because, sometimes, you actually get 2 speed boosts, but most of the time, you won't be able to get to +2, making you easily RK by opposing scarfers or even M-Aero; if you go Jolly, then u lost much of the power you need; it also suffers competition from megas like RD Mega Swampert or even Reg Pedo (which I hope DaSpoofy will cover later). Hell, a single intimidate is usually enough to stop a Mega Sharpedo from cleaning :/

In a well build spike stacking team, Mega Sharpedo fairs really well, and it is certainly a threat that should be accounted for. But then, it's the only playstyle where it exceeds, and a well built team usually covers Mega Shark while accounting for other threats. I'd put Mega Sharpedo in A- rank, A rank at his best, but not A+ rank material.

 

[empire370]

I have no idea why mega pedo was placed in a+ it really can't revenge kill the way mega pert aero and beedrill can. It requires quiet the support and adamant has trouble getting 2 speed boost which you really need imo since scarf meinshao and salamence are running around even scarf darmantan can handle it with superpower and also meinshao has a less than 50% chance of being koed by waterfall after rocks and jolly makes sure its not a ohko and mega pedo has a hard time with mega aggron and suicune since they can decently take hits from it and mega aggron can twave it and if cune burns it that puts it in a bad place and mega pedo is not a fan of switching out since it will lose its speed boost after mega evolving and I agree that it faces competition from its normal form and mega pert. It's still a great poke in uu but a+ is to high I'd say a rank or a- for now

 

[YABO]

I think something that everyone is overlooking in respect to Sharpedo is the fact that it CAN run mixed to beat cobalion and tangrowth or whatever. Another important aspect is that Sharpedo can change modes in a sense. I have used Sharpedo extensively and in certain games you try to sweep but in others Sharpedo can evolve early and punch huge holes in things like Swampert and even Suicune. Again, I want to emphasize Mega Sharpedos added bulk since it really is that good. Since Sharpedo isn't taking life orb recoil and has a vastly increased defensive stat, it can live things that would normally ohko or 2hko. I'm on mobile right now but stuff that comes to mind is hydrei dark pulse, scarf hydrei draco (maybe), Entei Espeed. Entei SFire, Aero AAce, Krook EQ, random uturns, and a bunch of other hits that it's unevolved counterpart couldn't hope to survive. The unique thing about Sharpedo is that many Pokemon must run different sets to perform multiple jobs. Depending on what is needed, Sharpedo can function as a wallbreaker or a sweeper, something that is greatly desired.

PS: running jolly on mega shark is what gives you the freedom to play as a wallbreaker more often since you will still be able to revenge non scarf mence and hydreigon due to you're high base speed.

 

[jjoshcja]

Assuming you mean mega shark over shark in the first part of that post Yabo (the grammar makes no sense otherwise).

I'm pretty sure we all know about Msharks bulk, it's the only really notable aspect of the mega form aside from crunch wow and is huge enough to be the mainstay reason the damn thing is ranked over Nshark. It's really good, no argument from anyone ever on that bit.

"Changing modes" as you call it is just losing utility, to play Mshark as a midgame threat you have to give up the lategame sweep. That is not an advantage. That is a 100% loss of utility. Unless you're packing that weird af subtaunt Mshark set that's made to function without speedboost, that's more of a "well sweeps can be cool but ima eat suicune now" thing that relies 100% on its buffed bulk to do not Nshark things.

Damage output wise Mshark is not pulling off anything that isn't named crunch remotely as well as Nshark period on the offensive side. Even then its dumbstrong crunch clocks in at a whopping 8.8% more raw power than specially based Nsharks strongest stab (its actually weaker on the much more common jolly set). This is mostly pointless as walls are rarely 100 all blobs but its nice to know that Msharks added power on crunch is only relevant in certain situations.

(this is not a real shamin, calc woln't let me 100 all dummy anymore)
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 228-268 (66.8 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Shaymin: 208-246 (60.9 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Coverage wise Mshark is much much weaker on both sides of the spectrum failing to kill everything from uninvested cobalion from full, to tangrowth from full.

0 SpA Mega Sharpedo Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tangrowth: 240-284 (59.5 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
12 SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tangrowth: 278-330 (68.9 - 81.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tangrowth: 385-455 (95.5 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Ok sure you can run some shit like heavy spatk invest Mshark but that defeats the fucking purpose of mshark, 40 is about the most invest you can steal from speed safely and it does 0

252+ SpA Mega Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 229-271 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Mega Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ SpA Life Orb Sharpedo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 270-320 (83.3 - 98.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 237-281 (73.1 - 86.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

Just examples of why Mshark CANT run ice beam/hydro/insert coverage here to do Nshark things.

(Seriously though If I just misread that first bit of the post I can pull out the bits on that because whatever)

 

[The Swan]

I agree on all the statements about Sharpedo being ranked too high, and I would also like to explain why (in my opinion) Non Mega Sharpedo is superior. 1. Diversity-Sharpedo isn't simply limited to Crunch and Ice Fang for being a good Pokemon, unlike Sharpedo, which gets a large amount of its hype from just that and that alone. Sharpedo has the liberty to run a Special Life Orb set, which can break through the ever popular Mega Aggron and even Suicune. Also helping it is a nice attack stat, that can actually get more damage off on a Water STAB attack than Mega Sharpedo, as long as it has Life Orb, and it even has priority in Aqua Jet, meaning that a Mach Punch can be countered. Going along with diversity is... 2. Movepool-Yeah, I know, Sharpedo and Mega Sharpedo have identical movepools, but I mean how they can make use of their movepool. Sharpedo brings its two main attacks, mostly Crunch, to the table, which truth be told, can take a good chunk out of any Pokemon's health that doesn't resist it. But when comparing it with regular Sharpedo, that's the only niche in movepool it has. Aqua Jet makes Sharpedo a potent revenge killer, while non Strong Jaw Crunch is still dangerous. Sharpedo can even make use of its, well, garbage bulk with Destiny Bond, as every hit is basically a OHKO, you can be nearly guarenteed to take out at least one Pokemon. The final item to discuss is... 3. Ability-Speed Boost vs. Strong Jaw, I'm sorry, Speed Boost is the better ability. Strong Jaw is great in certain cases, but all around, Speed Boost is superior. After one boost, Sharpedo can outspeed nearly all Pokemon, which increase its offensive potential even further. Mega Sharpedo does have its merits as an offensive Pokemon, and I do realize that I didn't discuss everything, but those are just a few examples of why I feel Sharpedo is the better choice. As always, feel free to disagree! :)

 

[dodmen]

Some new nominations:

Crobat: A -> A-. I know a couple members of the VR council have been wanting this one for a while, guess it never actually went through. The Stealth Rock weakness combined with the lack of raw bulk that, for example, Mandibuzz/Salamence/Gligar have, on top of the fact that most Stealth Rock users actually beat it directly, makes it a shaky Defog user. It's also disappointingly weak, leaving it unable to check some things that it wants to; for example variants without Taunt lose to CM Florges. Bat's still a good 'mon though, and in this metagame it's better used offensively rather than defensively (CB Bat is cool and can shred offensive teams that don't have a Doublade or something similar). Still, its main role is better pulled off by other Pokemon now, especially the ones mentioned above.

Cresselia: A to A- I just don't think this is A material anymore. It's definitely got superb bulk and the ability to check a variety of 'mons but current metagame trends limit its function both as a CM sweeper and a wall. For example 4/5 of the S-rank 'mons beat it eventually (though Hydreigon is obviously shaky and might not flat out 1v1 it, if Cress for some reason decides to stay in vs it it'll end up too worn down to check the things it needs to) and about half the A+ 'mons threaten it greatly. It's also usually dead weight against most defensive teams and some balanced teams. I don't have any actual solid reasoning besides this but it doesn't feel like an A mon to me, maybe other people can elaborate.

Slowking: A to A-, similar reasoning as Cresselia, and it doesn't quite have enough bulk to reliably check things like Mega Swampert, Salamence, Mamoswine.

I know we just recently moved Jellicent up to B+. But I've been using it a lot and I really think it should be A- with Slowking. While Slowking's has an ability to boost and a much higher offensive presence, Jellicent's ability to shut down the vast majority of defensive 'mons with Wisp + Taunt is enormous. And its immunity to Water moves is even better, since you can't just fish for Scald burns to help wear it down/force it to recover like you can against, say Mandibuzz. Jellicent also shuts down most relevant bulky boosting 'mons (Suicune [risks being stalled out so not 100% counter though], Snorlax, Reuniclus [seriously Hex is almost a must on Jellicent], Cresselia, CM Florges [again, shaky]) while also shrugging off hits from relevant threats including Cobalion and Mega Bee. Many of its checks like Rotom-C, Hydrei, Mega Blastoise, Heliolisk, simply get worn down after getting hit with a Wisp on the switch when Jellicent's paired with something like Florges.

As for Mega Shark, while I do agree that A+ may be too high (sorry fuga) I also think that normal Sharpedo's /sweeping/ capabilities are being overestimated. Damage-wise, it can definitely do nasty things to Mega Shark's checks. But in a metagame where every offense team carries some form of priority, msot of which will knock out normal Sharpedo, and where any OHKO that normal Shark misses out on will result in it fainting, it simply cannot pull off a sweep as effectively as Mega Sharpedo can. I do not think Sharpedo is superior to Mega Sharpedo at all. Either way, A+ was probably too hasty of a rank for Mega Sharpedo, and that regular Sharpedo might be able to use a rise to B+ because of its overall damage output compared to Mega Sharpedo.

Froslass should move up for sure. Anything I could say here would be rehashing what's already been said.

 

[empire370]

Ok first Id like to say Bemyalt was right I should be more detailed in my nominatons.
I thought omfuga was gonna make the changes today but I do have some more nominations which are

(Pangoro from B to B+) I know this may seem odd but i do think pangoro is on mega sceptile and yanmegas level currently while pangoro cannot sweep teams but pangoros wallbreaking abilitys are amazing, unboosted it can do damage to a lot of walls and with access to swords dance it has a possibility to ohko suicune after rocks at +2, pangoros biggest flaw is its speed making it easily revenge killed so I dont think it should go higher than B+ but if you need a poke to break for walls pangoro is a good option even if there a better fighting and dark types but they cant do what pangoro does best imo.

(Kingdra from B- to C) shaky bout this one to be honest kingdra is my favorite water type but i really dont see the point of using since it faces competition as a dragon dancer with a lot of other pokeslike gatr or mence and mega pert as a swift swimmer, even with sniper its not a walk in the park to settup and the fact that it cant handle empoleon and trouble with other bulky water types most notably suicune and vaporeon and with a lot of offensive water and dragon running around. I just dont see how kingras keeping up and question if its B-material.

 

[Bouff]

Well I mean the other thing about Cress is that it's not as reliable compared to the other popular bulky wincons in Reuni and Lax.. it loses to both of them 1v1 unless it gets a crit as well and doesn't have as much to offer as either of them, since Reuni can force out nearly every defensive mon as soon as it comes in / doesn't have to worry about status and Lax has an arguably better defensive typing mainly cause it doesn't have to worry about Knock Off as much, as well as the fact that both don't need a boost to do any damage.. The main merit i see for cress as a cm sweeper is that you can set up on stuff like Mence and non HC / Crunch Aero tbh. Cress isn't really bad but i wouldn't put it in A rank especially with the ubiquity of Doublade and the fact that the only cm wars it's winning are vs Cune, itself, Melo and Espeon @_@ dodmen mentioned most of what i would say for it as a wall so no reason for me to go into that lol.

 

[Mar1onette]

Ok first Id like to say Bemyalt was right I should be more detailed in my nominatons.
I thought omfuga was gonna make the changes today but I do have some more nominations which are



(Kingdra from B- to C) shaky bout this one to be honest kingdra is my favorite water type but i really dont see the point of using since it faces competition as a dragon dancer with a lot of other pokeslike gatr or mence and mega pert as a swift swimmer, even with sniper its not a walk in the park to settup and the fact that it cant handle empoleon and trouble with other bulky water types most notably suicune and vaporeon and with a lot of offensive water and dragon running around. I just dont see how kingras keeping up and question if its B-material.

The difference between Kingdra and Mega Pert as Swift Swim users is that Kingdra is a special offensive threat while Mega pert is a SLOWER physical offensive threat. the same with Feraligatr, its mediocre speed a lot of times still isn't enough to outspeed pokes like Mega Aero and Mega Beedrill, forcing the aqua jet if you carry it over a coverage move. Kingdra is still a decent DD user in its own right and makes a clear difference between Mpert being able to be a Special Offensive threat while having another set outside of Swift Swim and DD, is Critdra with Sniper + Scope Lens + Focus Energy being able to spam Draco's freely, or hydro pump's in the rain is an amazing thing that kingdra has alone in the meta while still having a great typing.

(Shuckle from C to B-)shuckles pretty cool at the moment with sticky webs and stealth rocks it fits well on offensive teams and metal herb keeping it from being taunt bait and access to toxic and encore its quiet decent at the moment imo.

my question is, What has changed to make this thing any better? If I recall correctly we still have as many water types, we still have as many hazard Removers, and we still have as many taunt users as before. the only thing that has changed in the tier is hoopa, which is even worse for shuckle seeing as hoopa is Lord of wall breaking slow bulky things like shuckle. Id like to hear more about how the meta shifted in shucke favor before agreeing for shuckle to move up.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Hello and Welcome to VR Verses! This is where I demolish a common thought among pokemon players in order to propose a pokemon rise! Today's common thought is....
"Mega Sharpedo totally outclasses regular Sharpedo"

Sharpedo is a fantastic pokemon both as a UU cleaner and a powerful revenge killer. With access to reliable stabs and the amazing ability known as Speed Boost, Sharpedo has the potential to do massive damage against one's opponent. Ever since the arrival of Mega Sharpedo, regular Sharpedo has been overshadowed. It has been so overshadowed, that if the usage of regular Sharpedo is absolutely pathetic within UU. This should not be the case. Sharpedo is not outclassed. It is a very potent pokemon within UU and I will tell you why. Sharpedo to B+

Sets

@

Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
Waterfall

Crunch

Poison Jab

Protect

@

Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Naughty Nature
Protect

Crunch

Waterfall

Ice Beam

Above are sets of Sharpedo that I will be referring to. I will also be referring to some less popular sets that have been overlooked but have a fine place within the UU meta. Below are the distinct differences between each pokemon. I will be addressing each of what good and bad about them. In the end Mega Sharpedo will have the better attributes as a pokemon in general. The point of this comparison is to show that regular Sharpedo is not far off from what Mega Sharpedo is. Hopefully in the end you can see that Sharpedo can be used over its mega evolution and is a fantastic pokemon overall.
​

Not a Mega
Sharpedo, unlike Mega Sharpedo, is not a mega. This is probably the number one reason to use regular Sharpedo. Not being a mega evolution provides a lot of freedom with item choice and being splash-able. You can put Sharpedo on a number of teams that need a cleaner. If you want to run Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Sharpedo on the same team, the greatest compromise is LO Sharpedo. While you are sacrificing bulk for power and accessibility, Sharpedo still functions very well outside its mega form. Of course now one has to kill and extreme speed Entei or Lucario before you sweep which can be a big downfall. You may also have to slightly weaken a Reuniclus since an LO Crunch will not kill but will come close. Although this is a disadvantage, the lack of powerful crunch is usually already compensated for as Mega Sharpedo tends to overkill its targets. Using the same strategies (hazard stacking) usually means regular Sharpedo can do the same job if not better.

Mega Sharpedo having more bulk and an item that does not take away health each attack puts its survivability far above regular Sharpedo. This may not seem important to a pokemon that out-speeds all of the opposing team, but it is. Even with Sharpedo resisting Sucker Punch, Ice Shard, and Aqua Jet, the priority plus LO damage tends to kill Sharpedo off before it can finish it's sweep. Mega Sharpedo negates this problem pretty well while still having power to pull off late game sweeps.

Mega Sharpedo does not have power until it mega evolves. This can be a huge role playing factor early game limiting the amount of use Mega Sharpedo has. Sharpedo avoids this conflict with having consistent power in LO. It does not need mega evolve to gain power and therefore always has Speed Boost. This allows Sharpedo to come in and revenge kill things early game that Mega Sharpedo cannot.

Mixed LO
Since Sharpedo runs Life Orb, Sharpedo can run mixed attacks with little to no consequence. Running Naughty nature does not harm Sharpedo because it is not suppose to switch into any special moves or any moves for that matter. Being able to fire off powerful mixed attacks allows Sharpedo to have few checks and counters. Tangrowth, who usually counters Mega Sharpedo, has more trouble with a life orb ice beam than a strong jaw ice fang. The same goes for Chenaught. While Ice beam seams weaker overall than strong jaw ice fang, hitting physical walls from the special side does more damage and allows it to sweep much easier. Another option is opting for Hydro Pump as a main water Stab. This hits Cobalion and Gligar (if no ice move) harder ensure an easier sweep. Blizzard is an also surprising option as it can turn a 0% chance on winning to a 70% chance of winning. The extra power is sometimes needed to kill off Hydreigon or Toxicroak. While Ice beam is accurate, it is really only used for specific situations where Blizzard's extra damage is a better option.

More Powerful Water Stabs
Along with Hydro Pump, Waterfall's power is also boosted above Mega Sharpedo. This can be useful for a late game sweep that depends more on Waterfall's power rather than crunch's power. One could argue that we are in a bulky water meta and that the more powerful Crunch is better than a powerful Waterfall. To be fair, I think the meta is steering more away from that. There is a significant drop in suicune usage over the last 2 months and the only water types that have moved up in usage (besides Mola) are offensive like Feraligatr and Mega Swampert. Grass types, however, have seen a rise in usage. Over all the more powerful crunch is a better sweeping tool, but there are situations where the waterfall power is better. In fact, I bumped into one today. Below is an image of me killing a Mienshoa at 100% health. Sharpedo has an 87% chance to kill while mega shark only has a 6% chance.

Image and Replay

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uu-270732376 vs Donphantastic

More Powerful Poison (Coverage) Moves
While Mega Sharpedo has its strong jaw ice fang, Sharpedo has all it's other coverage moves boosted above that of Mega Sharpedos thanks to the life orb. My personal favorite is Poison Jab Sharpedo. Poison Jab is coin flip away from killing Rotom-M and can inflict poison on the incoming bulky pokemon. Below is a list of great coverage moves that Sharpedo can pull off with great effectiveness.

• Poison Jab (Grass Types like Mow, Tangrowth, and Chesnaught)
• Earthquake (Cobalion and Toxicroak)
• Zen Headbutt (Machamp, Toxicroak, and other Fighting Types)

Sharpedo shines the brightest in hyper offence but also has great potential in spike stacking balance. Hazards are a great help to Sharpedo, yet it can sweep pretty well without them. The best part of Sharpedo is its flexibility on what it wants to take out. The ability to run special and physical with peak speed is very potent within UU. This nomination may be a long shot due to the community's lack of experience with Sharpedo. Please consider my points and post what you think! Thanks for reading.

 

[empire370]

The difference between Kingdra and Mega Pert as Swift Swim users is that Kingdra is a special offensive threat while Mega pert is a SLOWER physical offensive threat. the same with Feraligatr, its mediocre speed a lot of times still isn't enough to outspeed pokes like Mega Aero and Mega Beedrill, forcing the aqua jet if you carry it over a coverage move. Kingdra is still a decent DD user in its own right and makes a clear difference between Mpert being able to be a Special Offensive threat while having another set outside of Swift Swim and DD, is Critdra with Sniper + Scope Lens + Focus Energy being able to spam Draco's freely, or hydro pump's in the rain is an amazing thing that kingdra has alone in the meta while still having a great typing.


my question is, What has changed to make this thing any better? If I recall correctly we still have as many water types, we still have as many hazard Removers, and we still have as many taunt users as before. the only thing that has changed in the tier is hoopa, which is even worse for shuckle seeing as hoopa is Lord of wall breaking slow bulky things like shuckle. Id like to hear more about how the meta shifted in shucke favor before agreeing for shuckle to move up.

Critda still has a hard time setting up and it is a decent dd user but nothing that stands out to me and its speed allows it to be outside by a lot of scarfers at +1, and mega pert is a more gifted swift swimmer imo and like I said kingdra has trouble with bulky water mons. Kingdra still is decent but like I said I don't know if its fit for b- with all the offensive water types and dragon types runnin around ,and shuckle ability to set up hazards and toxic stall is pretty cool and with hoopa around may not help much but it gives it a another Mon to support and with metal herb its not taunt bait.

 

[Mar1onette]

Critda still has a hard time setting up and it is a decent dd user but nothing that stands out to me and its speed allows it to be outside by a lot of scarfers at +1, and mega pert is a more gifted swift swimmer imo and like I said kingdra has trouble with bulky water mons. Kingdra still is decent but like I said I don't know if its fit for b- with all the offensive water types and dragon types runnin around ,and shuckle ability to set up hazards and toxic stall is pretty cool and with hoopa around may not help much but it gives it a another Mon to support and with metal herb its not taunt bait.

Kingdra- Critdra may be hard at times to set up but its clearly not impossible, and swampart and gatre both can have plenty of trouble with bulky water type mons, a common one would be the ever lasting Suicune. What does swampart's physical offensive traits effect kingdra's special offensive traits? it has no impact on it seeing as the are attacking in different ways, Mpert- Physical Kingdra-Special, and Critdra can handle the bulky water mons seeing as they can't exactly pack a punch a majority of the time against kingda because it resists the water STAB and are more focused in bulk then their offensive presence leaving opportunity fpr Focus Energy, Critdra can also Potentially take on Crocune/Roarcune because of its ability to always crit once it gets a focus energy up.

Shuckle- Again you still haven't answered the question of "what has changed", "How has the meta changed in Shuckle's favor" because shuckle has always had mental herb and shucke is still easily broken even with its massive defenses with its horrible hp which makes it quite the difficult task to even toxic stall, and i kind of see shuckle suffering 4MSS seeing as it wants to set up hazards, wants to stall with toxic/infestation, and wants to have rest for stalling/recovery. stalling with shuckle cannot function without infestation meaning you either lose recovery or you lose a hazard on shuckle.

 

[rs]

(Shuckle from C to B-)shuckles pretty cool at the moment with sticky webs and stealth rocks it fits well on offensive teams and metal herb keeping it from being taunt bait and access to toxic and encore its quiet decent at the moment imo.

"what has changed"

Well for Shuckle, something did change lol, Smeargle dropped. Sure Shuckle has more bulk, but Smeargle has access to Spore/Dark Void as well as any hazards its needs, such as Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Webs, SR, etc. It also has the ability to run endeavor if it needs to completely cripple a wall late game, which Shuckle certainly cannot do. If anything, Shuckle just got worse in the past couple of months, not better, since it gets completely outclassed by Smeargle as a Hyper Offensive lead. I would support it staying at C or even unranked tbh.

 

[empire370]

Empoleon and suicune both can phase kingdra before it sets up and kingdra needs agilty to in order to not be revenged killed, and while dd and crit dra may work around suicune but swift swim does not and don't forget that kingdra is walled by the gifted empoleon which is also a problem and again while its a decent dd user there are still mons that make better use of this move, and criteria can easily be revenged killed before setting up, and swift swim is easily walled imo

 

[empire370]

Well for Shuckle, something did change lol, Smeargle dropped. Sure Shuckle has more bulk, but Smeargle has access to Spore/Dark Void as well as any hazards its needs, such as Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Webs, SR, etc. It also has the ability to run endeavor if it needs to completely cripple a wall late game, which Shuckle certainly cannot do. If anything, Shuckle just got worse in the past couple of months, not better, since it gets completely outclassed by Smeargle as a Hyper Offensive lead. I would support it staying at C or even unranked tbh.

Shuckle can't be unranked since its stuck in this tier but I kind of don't care about the nomination anymore I'm more focused on pangoro and kingdra and I got to stop double posting

 

[Mar1onette]

Shuckle can't be unranked since its stuck in this tier but I kind of don't care about the nomination anymore I'm more focused on pangoro and kingdra and I got to stop double posting

shuckle does not need to be ranked iirc since its not UU by usage.

Empoleon and suicune both can phase kingdra before it sets up and kingdra needs agilty to in order to not be revenged killed, and while dd and crit dra may work around suicune but swift swim does notnot and don't forget that kingdra is walled by the gifted empoleon which is also a problem and again while its a decent dd user there are still mons that make better use of this move, and criteria can easily be revenged killed before setting up, and swift swim is easily walled imo

kingdra is walled by empoleon, it will be checked/walled by some pokes, hence its in such a low viability ranking, but it still has its other redeeming qualities that iv'e already said, and just in general i find Kingdra being on a higher level of viability than the poke in C Rank that have things like Shuckle and flygon. I think kingdra is a solid B- Mon and is on the same level as the majority of the rest of the pokes in B-.

 

[empire370]

shuckle does not need to be ranked iirc since its not UU by usage.

That's what I said critdra may be able to work around suicune but I still not convinced it should stay b-

 

[ehT]

​

I think my problem with Mega Sharpy in A+ is that, unlike all the other mons in that rank, it's kind of a do-or-die YOLO mon, an issue that's kind of inherent to being a cleaner. Sharpedo can do its job if and only if its checks are worn down by its teammates. Otherwise it'll maybe kill something, and then dent whatever kills it immediately after. This means that teams have to be dedicated to supporting a Sharpedo sweep, or benefiting from Sharpedo's ability to devour something early game. Granted, the support required for it to do the former is minimal, and the support it provides doing the latter is immense, but it can only do so with maximum effectiveness once. This is especially true versus offence, since practically every offence team runs something that can outspeed it without a boost. Compare this to Mamo, Krook, Cobalion and friends. These mons can all do their jobs multiple times throughout a game, and have lasting utility, survivability, and most importantly, self-sufficiency. This is a key thing that Sharpedo lacks that, IMO, puts it below A+. It's still undoubtedly the most effective, lowest-risk cleaner in the tier -- however, I believe its very nature as a cleaner is enough to keep it out of the rank of mons that can much more proficiently hold their own.

 

[Omfuga]

Sorry for late changes...

Venomoth (B+ to A-)
Hoopa (New Pokemon to B)
Tangrowth (B+ to A-)
Froslass (B+ to A-)
Goodra (B- to C)

Nominations:

Mega Sharpedo (A+ to A)- Nominating Sharpedo once again because I'm still on the fence for both arguments.

Rotom-c (A- to A)- Big supporter of this one. I think rotom-c is the best volt switcher in the tier and its secondary STAB is fantastic and easy to spam. On top of that it can use trick to cripple walls like Blissey or will-o-wisp with a bulky offensive set. Can run both Scarf and Specs efficiently... Beedrill + rotom-c is probably the most deadly volt-turn core in the tier.

Going to quote Dodmen for the remaining 3 Noms:

Some new nominations:

Crobat: A -> A-. I know a couple members of the VR council have been wanting this one for a while, guess it never actually went through. The Stealth Rock weakness combined with the lack of raw bulk that, for example, Mandibuzz/Salamence/Gligar have, on top of the fact that most Stealth Rock users actually beat it directly, makes it a shaky Defog user. It's also disappointingly weak, leaving it unable to check some things that it wants to; for example variants without Taunt lose to CM Florges. Bat's still a good 'mon though, and in this metagame it's better used offensively rather than defensively (CB Bat is cool and can shred offensive teams that don't have a Doublade or something similar). Still, its main role is better pulled off by other Pokemon now, especially the ones mentioned above.

Cresselia: A to A- I just don't think this is A material anymore. It's definitely got superb bulk and the ability to check a variety of 'mons but current metagame trends limit its function both as a CM sweeper and a wall. For example 4/5 of the S-rank 'mons beat it eventually (though Hydreigon is obviously shaky and might not flat out 1v1 it, if Cress for some reason decides to stay in vs it it'll end up too worn down to check the things it needs to) and about half the A+ 'mons threaten it greatly. It's also usually dead weight against most defensive teams and some balanced teams. I don't have any actual solid reasoning besides this but it doesn't feel like an A mon to me, maybe other people can elaborate.

Slowking: A to A-, similar reasoning as Cresselia, and it doesn't quite have enough bulk to reliably check things like Mega Swampert, Salamence, Mamoswine.

And finally Hoopa is still up for discussion because I'm really not sure how much potential Hoopa has.