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OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
ScarfMence
I don't like Scarf Jirachi at all in a HO team, since after he revenge kills something, he becomes set-up bait for half the metagame with his mediocre power and awful STAB move (yeah Steel sucks as an offensive type if you didn't know). What is the point of revenge killing a fast threat if after doing so, we are going to get swept by another one?
Our Jirachi revenge killed an opposing AcroBat Gliscor with Ice Punch? Great, now we are going to get set-up on and swept by SD Terrakion, DD Gyara, Shell Smash Cloyster, QD Volcarona, and SD Lucario.
Our Jirachi revenge killed an opposing SD Scizor that was ready to sweep our team, with Fire Punch? Great, now we are going to get set-up on and swept by any DD dragon, QD Volcarona, Shell Smash Cloyster, DD Gyara, AcroBat Gliscor, SD Terrakion and more.
Anyway you get the point... Jirachi is so weak and gives so many set-up opportunities to the opponent after he revenge kills something, for a HO offensive team to afford. My opinion is that ScarfRachi's place is in balanced teams, which can handle the threats that can set-up on Jirachi with their defensive core.
In the other hand ScarMence is excellent in HO teams, as it can easily give us a winning condition when Steel types are weakened (not hard at all, considering we are using Haxorus and Zoroark), and can revenge kill the threats we need it to, without becoming set-up bait for half the set-up sweepers in the tier. As for the problem of who will tank Dragon hits, and any possible Scizor weakness, i think that Gyara and Donphan are enough to keep Scizor in check. Furthermore, we could easily put a Balloon Heatran in the last slot, to cover any possible Dragon weakness, give it SR so that Donphan will be free to use Ice Shard, and handle Scizor at the same time. Or we could even use a Passcho Berry lure Heatran, to lure and kill Starmie and Rotom-W which otherwise destroy the team...
I don't like Scarf Jirachi at all in a HO team, since after he revenge kills something, he becomes set-up bait for half the metagame with his mediocre power and awful STAB move (yeah Steel sucks as an offensive type if you didn't know). What is the point of revenge killing a fast threat if after doing so, we are going to get swept by another one?
Our Jirachi revenge killed an opposing AcroBat Gliscor with Ice Punch? Great, now we are going to get set-up on and swept by SD Terrakion, DD Gyara, Shell Smash Cloyster, QD Volcarona, and SD Lucario.
Our Jirachi revenge killed an opposing SD Scizor that was ready to sweep our team, with Fire Punch? Great, now we are going to get set-up on and swept by any DD dragon, QD Volcarona, Shell Smash Cloyster, DD Gyara, AcroBat Gliscor, SD Terrakion and more.
Anyway you get the point... Jirachi is so weak and gives so many set-up opportunities to the opponent after he revenge kills something, for a HO offensive team to afford. My opinion is that ScarfRachi's place is in balanced teams, which can handle the threats that can set-up on Jirachi with their defensive core.
In the other hand ScarMence is excellent in HO teams, as it can easily give us a winning condition when Steel types are weakened (not hard at all, considering we are using Haxorus and Zoroark), and can revenge kill the threats we need it to, without becoming set-up bait for half the set-up sweepers in the tier. As for the problem of who will tank Dragon hits, and any possible Scizor weakness, i think that Gyara and Donphan are enough to keep Scizor in check. Furthermore, we could easily put a Balloon Heatran in the last slot, to cover any possible Dragon weakness, give it SR so that Donphan will be free to use Ice Shard, and handle Scizor at the same time. Or we could even use a Passcho Berry lure Heatran, to lure and kill Starmie and Rotom-W which otherwise destroy the team...
At least we actually have a competition this time...
Jirachi (Physically Based Scarf)
Salamence (Scarf)
Thats a very good point and its something I thought about when I made my vote. Its true that does suffer from being set up on later in the game, however, since we are running such a hyper offensive team, its going to be difficult for pokemon to set up on us (not impossible tho) and Jirachi is going to be their to safeguard against a threat that sets up.
However, Salamence has its problems as well. For starters, its Stealth Rock weak, which means that if the opponent gets up Stealth Rock, its exceptionally risky to switch in, since you are losing 25% + more if you take an attack switching in +6% if sandstorm is up. That residual damage really piles up and its a problem Jirachi doesn't have. The second issue is that Salamence cannot switch into any of the pokemo nthat gives us trouble. Volcarona threats with Hurricane (which imo is the most threatening, commonly seen set that gives us trouble), Kyurem with its STABs, Gengar with Shadow Ball, Latios for obvious reasons, Virizion with SE / HP Ice the list goes on. Obviously Jirachi shouldn't be switching into Volcarona but, by and large, Jirahci can switch in, take a hit, and then revenge something, rather than Salamence which absolutely cannot switch in on many of these threats, and means that we have to sac something to get it in safely, the opponent simply switchs out (since fucking everyone knows of Scarf Mence now) and brings in their Latios to spam DM, or Kyurem to rape, etc etc. Sure, we could add a steel type for our last member, and run Mence, however, we have the option of running a steel type, right now, which checks the pokemon we have problems with. Personally, I would rather focus on us finding a switch in and check for all those threats, and then focus on patching Volcarona and perhaps anything that wants to set up, rather than running Salamence, and then struggling to switch into any and all of the threats that give us trouble.
On every team I've used ScarfMence on, SR has never been a problem even without a spinner (and here we have one so ++). 95% of games, if you have to switch Salamence into an attack, you're already losing.
There are definitely benefits to running Jirachi but as long as we can find a decent switch in for those fast special threats with the final member I think Mence is the better choice. If we can't make the team work then we can always go back a stage and use Rachi - but with Mence we've got much greater potential for a fantastic team.
There are definitely benefits to running Jirachi but as long as we can find a decent switch in for those fast special threats with the final member I think Mence is the better choice. If we can't make the team work then we can always go back a stage and use Rachi - but with Mence we've got much greater potential for a fantastic team.
Bubbly is 100 percent correct. Salamence doesn't work like other scarfers do. Instead of constantly switching in and out, he comes in once or twice a game to attempt a sweep or remove a big threat. And because we have rapid spin support Salamence is an overall better choice than Jirachi.
because this vote is so close, to prevent personal bias (since I am voting) I am leaving this open for another 48 hours and then the ballot will close. That is time enough for people vote. In the meantime you are all welcome to post regarding why / why not you voted this way at the expense of other options or something. Some of this is already going on but a little more discussion is always good around this time, especially for finalising our final member.
EDIT
If people think im being unfair then say so lol ill try and fix it
EDIT
If people think im being unfair then say so lol ill try and fix it
Since Moxiemence is in the lead, I've been playing around with it today and paired it with Jirachi, then Heatran, then Scizor...and I've actually lost about 80 points after a few hours and I see exactly why.
The first problem is we currently, Mence included, have 3 Pokemon weak to Ice and no Pokemon that resists or would even remotely enjoy switching in on an Ice attack. If we use a Steel-type in the last slot, unless it's fast, we're pretty open to Mamoswine and god forbid Starmie switches in.
Second: Latios. Just look at the team; it explains itself. Salamence revenges it, but if it's paired with a Pokemon with U-turn, it get free switches into our Pokemon that can't deal with it.
Third issue is Ferrothorn. Zoroark is our only Pokemon that can take out Ferrothorn without being crippled, seeded, or take a whip to the face. With Scarf Salamence's absolute NEED to remove Steel-types and Gyarados' need to remove Ferrothorn due to the threat of T-Wave, this is a huge issue.
Fourth issue: We're weak to Scarf Moxiemence! Jolly Scarf Moxiemence trashes our Adamant one and speed-tier at the very best. A speed tier is never a counter or even a check. That means that we kinda~ need Ice Shard on Donphan; which also means that we need to use our last Pokemon for Stealth Rock with means our last Pokemon is going to not only use a moveslot for Stealth Rock, but it needs to do all of the above. That is a really tall order. Stealth Rock, a way to take down Ferrothorn and it's partners (nothing likes taking that Jellicent burn other than Zoroark, which gets ruined by Scald,) Pursuit or at least enough bulk to keep Latios at bay...I think Tyranitar or maybe Bisharp are the only Pokemon that fit that description. Even Metagross and Jirachi have issues with Jellicent.
Scarf Moxiemence may beat a large portion of things that threaten us, but it has absolutely horrible synergy with the team in both typing and coverage. I mean, it adds absolutely nothing to the team's resistances and it's job can be handled by just about any other Choice Scarfer. Jirachi may be walled by Scizor if it Iron Heads, but so does Salamence to an extent as Scizor doesn't really mind anything but Earthquake and even then it's not too afraid. I honestly don't think we should touch Salamence.
I'll keep playing with it and testing throughout the day, but it's not working out right now no matter what Steel-type I try pairing it with.
The first problem is we currently, Mence included, have 3 Pokemon weak to Ice and no Pokemon that resists or would even remotely enjoy switching in on an Ice attack. If we use a Steel-type in the last slot, unless it's fast, we're pretty open to Mamoswine and god forbid Starmie switches in.
Second: Latios. Just look at the team; it explains itself. Salamence revenges it, but if it's paired with a Pokemon with U-turn, it get free switches into our Pokemon that can't deal with it.
Third issue is Ferrothorn. Zoroark is our only Pokemon that can take out Ferrothorn without being crippled, seeded, or take a whip to the face. With Scarf Salamence's absolute NEED to remove Steel-types and Gyarados' need to remove Ferrothorn due to the threat of T-Wave, this is a huge issue.
Fourth issue: We're weak to Scarf Moxiemence! Jolly Scarf Moxiemence trashes our Adamant one and speed-tier at the very best. A speed tier is never a counter or even a check. That means that we kinda~ need Ice Shard on Donphan; which also means that we need to use our last Pokemon for Stealth Rock with means our last Pokemon is going to not only use a moveslot for Stealth Rock, but it needs to do all of the above. That is a really tall order. Stealth Rock, a way to take down Ferrothorn and it's partners (nothing likes taking that Jellicent burn other than Zoroark, which gets ruined by Scald,) Pursuit or at least enough bulk to keep Latios at bay...I think Tyranitar or maybe Bisharp are the only Pokemon that fit that description. Even Metagross and Jirachi have issues with Jellicent.
Scarf Moxiemence may beat a large portion of things that threaten us, but it has absolutely horrible synergy with the team in both typing and coverage. I mean, it adds absolutely nothing to the team's resistances and it's job can be handled by just about any other Choice Scarfer. Jirachi may be walled by Scizor if it Iron Heads, but so does Salamence to an extent as Scizor doesn't really mind anything but Earthquake and even then it's not too afraid. I honestly don't think we should touch Salamence.
I'll keep playing with it and testing throughout the day, but it's not working out right now no matter what Steel-type I try pairing it with.
I know I haven't agreed with Katakiri about everything in this thread, but in this case he really is absolutely right. Having tested versions of this team, I have had very similar problems. It's not necessarily that Jirachi is the best fit for the team, but more that Salamence really isn't.
I'm not quite advocating Jirachi myself now. It's just the only other Scarfmon on the ballot. Starmie, Gengar, Tornadus, and most of the Pokemon we're threatened by are dealt with by most Scarf Pokemon, not just Jirachi or Salamence.
I personally think Scarf Scizor or Scarf Metagross would be a better fit, but I never thought of it until now. After seeing what Mence didn't do, I see more of what we actually need as all of those problems I listed above apply with or without Mence so we do need to patch those holes as well at some point; we just don't want to lay all of that burden on our last Pokemon.
I personally think Scarf Scizor or Scarf Metagross would be a better fit, but I never thought of it until now. After seeing what Mence didn't do, I see more of what we actually need as all of those problems I listed above apply with or without Mence so we do need to patch those holes as well at some point; we just don't want to lay all of that burden on our last Pokemon.
Yeah seems like we might've hit a bit of an issue here; none of the nominations turned out to really be what we needed. At this point, I don't feel comfortable voting for either Salamence OR Jirachi, and nothing else really has a chance of winning or really fits what we neeed. So... where do we go now? Looks like we've had a bit of a misstep.
Unfortunately there is not much I can do. It was a community project and if people didn't test some of the changes then these things happen. I will consult with Pocket but I think the easiest situation right now is to carry on, pick the final member, and then focus on perhaps a longer than usual testing stage (the ladder just reset too which is great) in order to finalise the team. If anyone has any better ideas then feel free to suggest them but at this stage, thats the plan that we will run with.
Well we could announce the winner of this round then call another vote to decide if we should go back a step or just move on. It would clog the pipes even more, but it seems like the best way to be fair to everyone as only a few of us so far have expressed concern with other voters having been silent on the matter.
by a grand total of 2 votes, Scarf Salamence is the winner.
After consulting with Pocket we agree that this issue with the team needs to be sorted NOW rather than later. Therefore, I have decided that we re look at the team NOW (with Salamence included), and make any changes now, and then pick our final member, and then go from there. Firstly however, I want to get everyone's opinion on this. If people agree towards this then we can move forward and get some discussion going on fixing the team. We might as well fix this team up now rather than fucking around changing half of it later.
Bar Zoroark, everything is fair game. We will have a discussion period for as long as possible, and then I will post a ballot on some of the changes suggested at a later date. If you all disagree with this then please say so but right now, Pocket and I believe that this way is prolly better in the long run.
After consulting with Pocket we agree that this issue with the team needs to be sorted NOW rather than later. Therefore, I have decided that we re look at the team NOW (with Salamence included), and make any changes now, and then pick our final member, and then go from there. Firstly however, I want to get everyone's opinion on this. If people agree towards this then we can move forward and get some discussion going on fixing the team. We might as well fix this team up now rather than fucking around changing half of it later.
Bar Zoroark, everything is fair game. We will have a discussion period for as long as possible, and then I will post a ballot on some of the changes suggested at a later date. If you all disagree with this then please say so but right now, Pocket and I believe that this way is prolly better in the long run.
I think that sounds like a solid plan. At this point the last 'mon would just be a placeholder and would be pretty much guaranteed to change later on. That said, I think I'll start with trying to find a better option over Donphan before looking at Mence. I don't know about the rest of you guys but for me Donphan only slows the team down and kills the momentum. The other three members (w/o mence) work well together for the most part.
It would also be cool to see what people are using in the sixth slot and what works with each option to make choosing the last 'mon easier.
Edit @ Katakiri - I just found that it was halfway between bulky and offensive without enough bulk or speed to fill either role and keep up with the rest of the team. I also hardly ever found the time or a real need to use RS but maybe that's just me. I kept expecting it to act as more of a tank but it gets worn down too quickly to act as any type of defensive backbone for the team (part of that is just my way of playing I guess since I prefer balanced teams). I agree 100% that mence needs to go, but I'm hoping that changing Donphan can open up more options for a revenge killer or cover more of the teams threats than what Donphan can.
It would also be cool to see what people are using in the sixth slot and what works with each option to make choosing the last 'mon easier.
Edit @ Katakiri - I just found that it was halfway between bulky and offensive without enough bulk or speed to fill either role and keep up with the rest of the team. I also hardly ever found the time or a real need to use RS but maybe that's just me. I kept expecting it to act as more of a tank but it gets worn down too quickly to act as any type of defensive backbone for the team (part of that is just my way of playing I guess since I prefer balanced teams). I agree 100% that mence needs to go, but I'm hoping that changing Donphan can open up more options for a revenge killer or cover more of the teams threats than what Donphan can.
I personally don't have any issues with Donphan. Sturdy saves me a lot and Rapid Spin is invaluable. I've been running SR over Ice Shard since it opens more slots to deal with threats rather than having weigh them down with the burden of carrying the team's Rocks. Head Smash has also helped me out in keeping Gliscor and Skarmory from doing anything major as Skarm will eventually have to Roost so I can EQ it right there and then without Zoroark even having to get her claws dirty.
Eh. I have to leave for class now, but I'll probably continue when I get back. I'll just say Salamence has gotta go for the reasons already listed in my above posts and leave it a that for now.
Eh. I have to leave for class now, but I'll probably continue when I get back. I'll just say Salamence has gotta go for the reasons already listed in my above posts and leave it a that for now.