Project OU Theorymon

[Martin]

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 204 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 123-145 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

52+ Atk Escavalier U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 676-796 (224.5 - 264.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I'm sold

...

Seriously though Escav is defo solid but held back. Both U-turn and TR are defo good buffs that i feel could make it good

 

[Dilasc]

Theorymon, for me at least, is an opportunity to break the game and experiment with new typings and synergies. When I'm thinking about a potential theorymon, my thoughts are about how exactly it might work. I'm considering it's niche in the meta, how effective and useful it might be, potential cores it could form and how it would fit into teams, and of course if it would be end up seeing use. In this case, we have Fairy / Fire typing on Sylveon. Sylveon is already an ok offensive mon in OU, so the idea is to ask "Does Fire help Sylveon offensively, or does the new typing hurt it more than it helps?"

You'll notice that I don't mention flavour in my little list at all. Frankly, flavour is something I don't bother considering when thinking up ideas, and it's not something I weigh when voting. Flavour matters in-game (not that Game Freak does a great job with that in the first place, explain Ice Punch Wooper to me please), but this is a competitive forum intended for discussion of simulator play. More importantly, OU Theorymon is not the place to try to make your favorite Pokemon relevant or to push your fanmons into existence, but to generate some new ideas and hopefully inspire a fun and creative meta. It's disappointing to see people ignore or refuse to consider something that might have an interesting effect on said gameplay, especially if it's based on assumptions of what a Pokemon should be. We have metal birds, water horses, sentient washing machines... It shouldn't be that much of a stretch that the magical cat can now shoot fire. The whole project is based on changing a Pokemon for the sake of improving it, and we should not be afraid of changing it "too much" based on some artwork and a little flavour text.

Will probably post my full thoughts on this slate later, just felt that this needed to be addressed before we go any further.

-approved by Recreant

When is 'flavor' too far, then? I've heard LolFlash Fire Forretress many times as a snide flavor breaker, but now I'm told flavor is irrelavent? Sorry if I'm going too off topic, I'm just a tad confused, and maybe even disgruntled.

 

[Giratina93]

Even from a competitive standpoint, Fire/Fairy Sylveon seems a little iffy. So you get rid of the steel weakness and give it resistances to grass and fire... but at the cost of being weak to ground, water, and rock. That last one is what really hurts Sylveon, since you're going to want to bring it in often to scare out steel types now with that STAB flamethrower, and constant rock damage ain't going to help you with that. Scizor U-turns out on you, Ferrothorn swaps out into some bulky water type to scare you out, Skarmory whirlwinds you out, etc. and each time you come back in, you're 25% closer to death, assuming no other chip damage from coming in on these mons. And yes, Earthquake being everywhere does Sylveon no wonders.

As for the other 3...

Milotic looks nice. With Recover, it can live with the burn, and become a go-to machine for switching into status moves and firing off powerful hits. As others have said above, it might prefer having Competitive, but I can see the typing helping it out some. Just keep it away from the fairies.

U-turn Escavalier is divine. With an ass vest, it's a slow U-turner that hits hard and can bring things in safely, though it competes with Scizor for that niche. As a TR user, I can see it making work done... it just would love some wish support as I see it getting worn down fast from repeated hits... 4MSS is a bitch, though. So you got Trick Room and U-turn, with Iron Head to clear out fairies. Now you want to have Pursuit to trap things, Knock Off for crippling, Mega Horn to outright nuke things...

Chesnaught is going to be a Megasaur-lite, and filling that niche for stall teams that don't want to use Megasaur. I like it, but its biggest competition will be the Regnerator crew, especially Tangrowth, who thanks to Ass vest, doesn't care about most fire and ice moves anyways, and sports better bulk (While lacking spikes)

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

Fire / Fairy-typing and Flamethrower

Hmm... Okay, I like this type combination. Remove that Steel weaknes, gain more protection from Bug, Grass, Fairy, Ice and Fire, immunity from Burn status...
But one thing is wrong with this set: Pokemon.
Sylveon shouldn't be Fire/Fairy, just didn't fit on this pokemon. What one guy say - only one fire move what this pokemon can use expect Hidden Power, is Sunny Day.
Also this pokemon is actually in OU. This pokemon didn't need another buff in new typing and with weaknes to Stealth Rock.

+ Flare Boost and Water / Dragon-typing

Well, this is actually my idea, what Recreant can confirm, because I send mesage with this idea for him.

Why I chosse that Flare Boost, you may ask?
Well... I really like Marvel Scale, what can be helpfull against physical atackers. Some people run this mon with Flame Orb just for that Burn ( try once, and... well, much better in my opinion is Leftovers set, but Flame Orb is situational).
Also clear water type is good in defensive aspect, and stats are amazing for good sp. tank. The problem is... Electric. Yeah, Grass is also really big problem, but in offence we prefer using types what can hit more than only three types super effective and a lot of more what are resist (seriosly - Grass is terrible in offence, because they hit SEVEN types with halved power, and some pokemons with only 1/4 power...). So... Electric is problem, because they can actually hit that Water type super effective. Four types (with one immunity) could stop this, but other fantastic in offence type - Ice - can hit from these list THREE types super effective. This is reason why people use that Electric type usually with Ice type.
With Water/Dragon typing, this Milotic takes both of them neutral, also lose this Grass type weaknes, what is nice bonus.

And we could stop here with boost for Milotic. Really - Milotic is fantastic special wall with clear Water type, even better with Water/Dragon type. Four time resist Fire and Water types, takes neutral damage from all coverage moves, gain only two other, less common weaknes in Fairy and Dragon types (okay - AND Freeze-Dry).

But... This could be boring when we just stay with that Marvel Scale and Competetive abilities (Cute Charm is definitly less usefull, and oponent must make contact with this pokemon, so.. nearly always use physical move, what means here, we can't run Marvel Scale). This pokemon must switch into intimidate user, and sometimes that intimidate go into previous pokemon. Competetive works always only, when we have Webs, or when we start first turn with Milotic (or both of pokemons die in previous turn, and both playesr must choose their pokemon for next turn). And when oponent just drop Intimidate - of corse.
Maybe we could push that sea snake into offencive plays? Because this pokemon have now Dragon type, so why not give for this pokemon bonus from Burn status but this time for Sp. Atack?
Clear Water type with Flare Boost looks... meh... okay, maybe can stay, but Dragon in fire? That angry Dragon who gain that hidden power from that burn sounds much better than fish, what... didn't want to stay outsite from water...
Also, I give this abillity for Milotic, because this is really raretly usable abillity. Only Drifblim can normally use this abillity, and he usually use Unburden anyway. Also Drifblim can't use Roost or Recover.
Of corse, this abillity give HUGE boost for sp. atack. But still this pokemon need to be burned for activate this abillity. Like in Marvel Scale, what of corse can be activate from Toxic, but usually when we run tank wihout Poison Heal... that toxic even when boost defensive stat, is the worst thing what we can have. have in mind, Milotic don't have healing from status.

This is reason why I choose this abillity.

+ Thick Fat

Okay, so let'a take two weaknes from grass pokemon. I think I saw that before...
But... This also means, this pokemon actually have better change in battle with fire starter, what shouldn't happen. All pokemon games we start from choosing first pokemon, right?
We start with Overgrow anyway, but when we give that option for Fight against type, what should be counter against him... something is not right...
Okay, in last generation we have that Fire/Psychic type, thats right, but now this pokemon need use Psychic type against him. Also, STAB for Psychic moves this pokemon gain on last stage of evolution.
In other hand we have Water/Dark type with Protean, what can hit super effective with STAB all other pokemons. You use against water type Grass? Nope, he is now Flying, in case when you use Fighting type. Also... you dead, because four time super effective flying move...
We have also that Empoleon with Water/Steel type, but in this situation he gain two weaknes what other starters from the same generation share: Fight (Infernape) and Ground (Torterra).

But more about this pokemon:
Thick fat is great abillity for him, and on physical site he can now tanks really well Fire and Ice atakcs. Sadly Ice and Fire moves usually are special.
Now we have better change with Mega Charizard X, because this guy have good defensive stat, but against Fire/Dragon Mega Charizard X...

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Chesnaught: 176-210 (46.3 - 55.2%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(46.3 - 55.2%)

He survive... one hit.
Still, he can't switch into Charizard, because he could lose to much health, and predition with Dragon Dance against Spiky Shield would cost him a lot.

But now Weavile can't deal to much damage from STAB Icicle Crash:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Chesnaught: 109-133 (28.6 - 35%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
(28.6 - 35%)

+ Trick Room and U-turn

This actually is big threat. In Trick Room he outspeed everything in OU expect Mega Sableye and Ferothorn - both with minimal speed. Prankster Will-o-Wisp or Taunt before Trick Room can stop sweep before he will start sweep. Also Hidden Power Fire could suprice this pokemon, but only, when oponent use against this monster good special atacker. Prankster Encore could stuck this pokemon in Trick Room, and reset his room effectivly, but who could risk switch into this beast with that power?
He can now use that U-Turn, what can be really helpfull to catch all counters (Arena Trap pokemon can trap and Knock Out oponents Fire pokemon).
From lower tiers other pokemon who can take his Trick Eoom is Mega Camerupt, with the same speed like Excavailer. That Flamethrower can really quick clear this Bug, but the same bug also have Drill Run.

0 SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Flamethrower vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 672-792 (207.4 - 244.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Escavalier Drill Run vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Camerupt: 185-218 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This pokemon could use Focus Sash for one guaranteed survive - this pokemon can't be burned by Sheer Force fire move.

Really scary pokemon...

 

[matthewc20090]

so im a first-time poster here, but i may as well give my opinions on these.

Sylveon+Fire Type+Flamethrower

while flamethrower+hyper voice gives Sylveon good coverage, it now gives even more reason to use Clefable over Sylveon. with a new stealth rock weakness, it's bulk is significantly lower, and it doesn't even get reliable recovery to mitigate its sr weakness. also a weakness to earthquake sucks becuase it can't switch into Garchomp or lando.

Chesnaught+Thick Fat

so weavile has a new counter...

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Chesnaught: 109-133 (28.6 - 35%) -- 99.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

this thing has a lot of potential. resisting edgequake and taking little from boltbeam, it's easily one of the best spikers in the team. a neutrality to fire is great too, as it lets it beat mega mane and friends.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Chesnaught: 128-152 (33.6 - 40%) -- 31.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Chesnaught: 184-218 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

i like this

i'll touch up on milotic later, idk about excavalier

 

[Martin]

Escavalier is definitely very good. It was already a pretty solid Pokémon before, but gaining access to a U-turn that is even stronger than Scizor's as well as the ability to act as an anti-offense 'mon with Trick Room is huge, as this thing can literally rip through stuff with Megahorn and Iron Head under Trick Room.

I like Chesnaught, as its ability is less situational than normal. Something to consider though is that it trades the ability to hard counter defensive Mega Venusaur and Sludge Bomb variants of Gengar, as well as the ability to cockblock Gyro Ball users, for the ability to better check elecs, meaning that choosing between this and Bulletproof is going to be a team dependent thing. This is what makes a good theorymon imo, as if you are able to take an existing viable 'mon and instead of just invalidating its old options you give it something to be considered as an alternative without completely invalidating its competition you are able to increase its versatility and use that as a means of buffing its viability.

Milotic is cool, but Flare Boost seems really out of place and stupid. As cool as it is, I just don't see the thematicness of it at all (even with the argument of Flame Orb to activate Marvel Scale, I just proceed to say that Flame Orb+Marvel Scale Milotic is garb due to the fact that Milotic would prefer to not be statused due to getting worn down and to have the passive recovery of Leftovers to allow it to check stuff throughout the match more consistently). That aside, it does give it offensive potential due to being less situational than Competitive (this is an effective Choice Specs boost iirc), although it does still beg to question exactly why you're using Milotic over Kingdra as an offensive Water/Dragon due to the latter having Draco Meteor to launch at stuff. Defensively, dragon typing is a big buff, allowing it to better handle electrics and grasses while also just making it that bit harder to break due to its increased range of resistances. A 4x resistance with Marvel Scale is a good Scald deterrent too, which is pretty sweet. It sucks to lose the good matchup versus stuff like Garchomp though.

As for Fairy/Fire Sylve, I'm not sure about this one. Maybe if it had been Fairy/Fighting with Aura Sphere or something, but I simply don't think that this a buff that justifies how much it strays from the theme. Not only is it still cockblocked by Heatran, but fire actually opens up a lot of weaknesses, namely the SR weakness and a weakness to the omnipresent Earthquake. I'm not sold on this one at all.

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

(...)
Milotic is cool, but Flare Boost seems really out of place and stupid. As cool as it is, I just don't see the thematicness of it at all (even with the argument of Flame Orb to activate Marvel Scale, I just proceed to say that Flame Orb+Marvel Scale Milotic is garb due to the fact that Milotic would prefer to not be statused due to getting worn down and to have the passive recovery of Leftovers to allow it to check stuff throughout the match more consistently). That aside, it does give it offensive potential due to being less situational than Competitive (this is an effective Choice Specs boost iirc), although it does still beg to question exactly why you're using Milotic over Kingdra as an offensive Water/Dragon due to the latter having Draco Meteor to launch at stuff. Defensively, dragon typing is a big buff, allowing it to better handle electrics and grasses while also just making it that bit harder to break due to its increased range of resistances. A 4x resistance with Marvel Scale is a good Scald deterrent too, which is pretty sweet. It sucks to lose the good matchup versus stuff like Garchomp though.
(...)

Less situational? Well... A lot of pokemon, who can run Will-o-Wisp or Scald and have good defensive stats, usually run that stuff against physical pokemons.
Milotic takes all Will-o-Wisp and Burn really well for boosting Defensive stat, but Special Atack is also really good, if not even better.

Have in mind, Milotic did not lose Marvel Scale, and still can run this abillity.
Dragon type give STAB for Dragon Pulse and Dragon Tail, but the most important change is that defensive aspect. Two rare in coverage weaknes - Fairy and Dragon (plus that x4 Freeze Dry) is better than weaknes for more common Electric type and ocasionaly Grass type (and Freeze Dry x2).

I give proposition for new role for this pokemon, what I think is okay. Flare Boost is one off the rarest and the best abillity what can boost Sp. Atack. Only other user, what can use this abillity naturaly is Drifblim (okay... and Drifloon). You can still run Leftovers set, when you want less damage taken from burn, but in this case watch for that Toxic users, or protect that Heal Bell user in your side.

For Kingdra: this pokemon have a little less power than Milotic, but in the same time is a little bit faster than Milotic (95 base Sp. Atack and 85 base Speed Kingra vs 100 base Sp. Atack and 81 base Speed Milotic), but he can also run that physical and mixed set better (have natural acces for Draco Meteor, 100% Critdra with Sniper/Swift Swim abillity and Focus Energy + Razor Claw/Scope Lens, Outrage in moveset...).
But Milotic have much more sp. bulk with amazing sp. def and HP stat, also with acces to Recover. With Marvel Scale have more physical defence than Kingdra.
Yes, Kingdra have Draco Meteor, but Milotic have Recover.
But... I agree that Kingdra could also gain Flare Boost, but for him I can see also Guts for physical sets (when we give AND Flare Boost, AND Guts, oponent can't know what a set Kingdra run before first Special or Physical atack we use).

But about Milotic, because about her now i write:
Milotic for bulky Tank with recovery looks great: and Competetive means you still are scare about using any debuff move, Marvel Scale in this case give nice boost for Physical Defensive stat for great tank set, and new for this pokemon abillity Flare Boost - Whenever you have oponent without debuf moves or webs - you can now hit harder than with never activated Competetive.
Of corse both of abilities are situational...

For Garchomp...
Yeah, you right... Milotic now can't fight with this thing...
Granbull?

I hope that my arguments have convinced you to this ability.

 

[The Immortal]

OU Theorymon now has a room on Pokemon Showdown! Check it out to discuss everything Theorymon related and to participate in tournaments!

https://play.pokemonshowdown.com/outheorymon

 

[heritage]

Sorry for the shortish post, but adding on to the above, strong contributors to this thread have good chances of getting Room Voice or above in said room, and this is a very good place to come and ask for battles or have your theorymon team rates by council members. If you ever need assistance in the room message moderators or me :)

Also, I've cleaned up the OP with a little help from Tressed. Honorable mentions have been removed entirely. These were really annoying to try to keep tabs on and they don't have a fantastic way of being implemented. If we ever want a Pokemon to be in the archive, we'll just reslate it again at a later date. Pretty much all of council has agreed that they need to go.

Anyways this is the last oppurtunity to discuss this slate before voting so make sure to get any thoughts out!

 

[Patolegend!]

In for a quick Cameo.....

I just want to say how much I REALLY like Escavalier. A slow u-turn is always beneficial, and it has enough qualities to make it stand out from Scizor as it is. But with Trick Room, it's gonna be a beast.

Its typing goes so well with Trick Room behemoths like Camerupt, Azu, SpecsTran, and Crawdaunt, meaning it can easily set up TR, u-turn into a resist, and start wrecking havoc.

An OTR set can also work really well outside of trick room, decimating offensive teams with excellent coverage in the form of Knock off, Iron Head, and Megahorn.

Definitely my favorite from the slate.

 

[Reiga]

Oh, this is still around? Nice. Back in the olden days from before I shied away from Smogon I used to frequent one of the old threads a lot so it's pretty great that its continued on.
As to not make this dabbling on "hey, I remember this!" pointless, migh as well give some thoughts on the current guys.

Fire/Fairy Sylveon in itself is pretty weird with how mono-eeveelution Sylveon gets a Fire typing, as repeated before in the thread, with a bit of a contradiction and all with it. Either way, the typing itself would be a pretty interesting addition. With it, Sylveon gets some good and needed resistance against Grass, Ice, Fairy and Fire to get it to shine more, at the cost however of falling prey to anything with Earthquake and Stone Edge.

U-Turn/Trick Room Escavalier is my personal favorite of the four, with Escavier already being enough different a pokémon from Scizor, its slow U-Turn would have its own magnificent perks, and while needing to be seperate from Trick Room, would probably be a blast with the current AV set. Trick Room, on the other hand, would be something really great for the underloved bug in shining armor, benefiting its low speed and high attack stat to get some great results, even being able to use those lances to good use to spear-head some great Trick Room teams.

I'll touch on the rest later whatevs just wanted to say hi or something.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Honestly, my problem with Chesnaught and Milotic is how awkwardly they preform. In a metagame so filled with powerful flying types, you're just asking to invite Tornadus-Theiran in to drop powerful Hurricanes on you. Ice and fire neutrality might be nice and all, but it's not walling any relevant fire types, what do we have? Heatran, Zard Y & X and Talonflame, all of which beat Chesnaught so that's basically useless. And the only ice type that's really bothered by it now is Weavile, so that's nice but not enough. It's still painfully passive versus things like Clefable, Tornadus, Zards and talonflame, basically baiting them in just screaming "use me", this is pokemon not bdsm.

And Milotic is another pokemon that's eh, the boost is better than the thick fat boost but why do you want to get statused. I feel like people underestimate how annoying a status is, wether it's a burn, para or toxic you're significantly lowering your life expectancy. If anything give it something like water/fairy + drizzle, if we're looking to boost it in Ou that's the way to do it. A counter to both hard forms, weevil check, heatran check, keldeo check, entei check, absol check.

idk that's my two cents, not a fan of those two.

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

(...)
And Milotic is another pokemon that's eh, the boost is better than the thick fat boost but why do you want to get statused. I feel like people underestimate how annoying a status is, wether it's a burn, para or toxic you're significantly lowering your life expectancy. If anything give it something like water/fairy + drizzle, if we're looking to boost it in Ou that's the way to do it. A counter to both hard forms, weevil check, heatran check, keldeo check, entei check, absol check.
(...)

Water/Fairy have even less sense, because that lack of STAB Fairy move.
"So, maybe let's give for this pokemon Moonblast? Ultimate special sweapers counter!"
Not very much against Mega Venusaur.
Okay, Water/Dragon is not perfect typing, like nearly all other combination of typing when we didn't count abilities.
Also - Why we want give for this pokemon Fairy type, when this thing - what I say before - have NO Fairy moves naturaly, but have Dragon moves?

With Water/Dragon potencial OU counters:
Altaria-Mega, Azumaril, Diance-Mega (but here I did not notice Physical Fairy move, so only hit on strong special side super effective), Charizard-Mega X, Dragonite, Garchomp(-Mega), Kyurem-Black, Latias(-Mega)
Theorymons potencial Counters:
Absol-Mega, Goodra, Audino-Mega, Granbull, Donphan, Aggron-Mega, Krookodile, Latios(-Mega), Sceptile-Mega(?).

With Water/Fairy potencial counters (have in mind lack of STAB Fairy move):
Breloom, Ferrothorn, Celebi, Gengar, generally all Grass, Poison and Electric types... (I will edit later...)

In my opinion Water/Dragon is just better for this pokemon.
About abillity...
Here we have more options. Rain maybe could be good, but how many Flare Boost users we saw?
We have a lot of good potencial good users of Drizzle, but not much with Flare Boost.
This pokemon still play around burn status, stil this pokemon can use Marvel Scale.
Of corse chip damage is terrible, but hey - now this pokemon can send better answer to oponents what like using burn status such like Sableye, Rotoms and others. Now theese pokemons have oponent, who gain more power from burning status. In other hand still we have huge amound of physical pokemons...

 

[heritage]

Two things: First one, welcome Isa Simple to council. This is far overdue, he's one of the best contributors to the thread. Welcome aboard mate :)

Second, it's time for voting. Remember, honorable mentions are removed, so please don't vote for one of those. Here are your options, please remember to bold your vote! Thanks everyone :)

+ Fairy / Fire-typing and Flamethrower

+ Water / Dragon and Flare Boost

+ Thick Fat

+ U-turn and Trick Room

My vote:
Water / Dragon-typing and Flare Boost Milotic

 

[Master B8s]

Escavalier + u-turn + Trick Room

 

[matthewc20090]

chesnaught + thick fat

 

[SpiderKoloPL]

Water / Dragon-typing and Flare Boost Milotic

 

[Isa Simple]

Escavalier + u-turn + Trick Room

 

[MANNAT]

escav

i would vote for sylv if it were fairy ground with epower, but fairy fire is annoying cause rocks weak and shit

 

[Patolegend!]

Escavalier + u-turn + Trick Room

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Sylveon

 

[Martin]

Escavalier+U-Turn+Trick Room

 

[Samoyed]

Water / Dragon-typing and Flare Boost Milotic

 

[Tarontos]

Escavalier + u-turn + Trick Room

 

[Akumeoy]

Escavalier + U-turn and Trick Room