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Scarf Breloom is definitely an unwelcome surprise to someone who faces it. Putting to sleep a Salamence, Landorus or Tornadus is definitely gamechanging.
You could also use it early on in the match to put something faster to sleep and essentially get a 6-5 lead on your opponent. Sleeping pokemon do not wake up unless you get lucky with a first turn wake when breloom switches out or you have a cleric.
Nel, you also get walled by any Ghost. Admittedly, you're carrying Double Powder which could conceivably cripple any switch-in, but any Ghost with Substitute laughs in your face.
As much as I think Choice Scarf is good on paper, I think it is way too weak to do any real damage, 252 Atk Technician Breloom Low Sweep vs 0 HP/0 Def Salamence: 26.89% - 31.72%. It is also locked into spore once used. Anyway without scarf, sporing threats isn't a problem if you use a bulk up set or a bulkier version that can take a hit, predicting a switch and sporing is a common occurrence anyway, so if you out-predict your opponent I see no benefit of using scarf. And with Tech Mach punch, I feel like there is even less reason to use scarf since it has the same power Priority attack as Scizor! With better typing.
Breloom @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Low Sweep
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
I know it was posted already, but it relates to this.
I feel like this set outshines Choice Scarf, Being able to lower the opposing Pokemon speed and out-speeding them to make a choice on what you want to do next, while getting damage, and having Life Orb for even greater damage with all 3 of Breloom's attacks. Another common occurrence is that the opponent will switch out of Breloom into a Pokemon less threatening to your team, while this makes it into a sort of 6-5 game, having 1 Pokemon that does nothing to your team asleep isn't very useful in the long run. This set, being able to Low Sweep first, and then choose their move allows the user to choose if he wants to put the Pokemon that just came in asleep, or make a different move.
@Frozen UK,I already said the main reason to use Scarfed Breloom is the surprise factor,not the scarfed revenge killing thing.There are better mons for that.But Breloom still has enough power to make it usable when compared with other scarfers.Bullet seed has a power range of 75-187.5 I think with an average of 112.5.This is the move you'll be using the most anyway.Besides,hitting Salamence with Low Sweep is what CBLoom is meant to do.ScarfLoom is meant to Stone Edge it.
I never really prefered the Bulky Versions.Breloom has poor bulk.It may take hits decent enough when properly invested but gets mauled by powerful attackers such as Life Orb and CB/Specs users with high attack stats.ScarfLoom's purpose is to put their Breloom check to sleep by surprise,example Latios,Salamence and then throw around it's powerful attacks.
@Frozen UK,I already said the main reason to use Scarfed Breloom is the surprise factor,not the scarfed revenge killing thing.There are better mons for that.But Breloom still has enough power to make it usable when compared with other scarfers.Bullet seed has a power range of 75-187.5 I think with an average of 112.5.This is the move you'll be using the most anyway.Besides,hitting Salamence with Low Sweep is what CBLoom is meant to do.ScarfLoom is meant to Stone Edge it.
I never really prefered the Bulky Versions.Breloom has poor bulk.It may take hits decent enough when properly invested but gets mauled by powerful attackers such as Life Orb and CB/Specs users with high attack stats.ScarfLoom's purpose is to put their Breloom check to sleep by surprise,example Latios,Salamence and then throw around it's powerful attacks.
Sorry I didn't see that it had Stone Edge over Mach Punch, my bad. Only reason I would use Tech loom is because of Mach Punch, but personal preference. Anyway, I don't know how you would bring it in to make a difference, if someone brought in a Breloom vs my Latios while I was locked into Psyshock, my mind would automatically think somethings not right there and that would make me think it must be scarf, as I think a lot of players would. In that case I would switch to a Pokemon I wouldn't mind being asleep. The only time I can see this set using spore on the Pokemon that you wanted to Spore, is if you have a double down and your opponent doesn't know if it's scarf.
IN my opinion Scarfloom is just plain bad in this meta. In B/W 1 slower pokemon wore scarfs to catch up to base 100+ pokemon and faster pokemon chose band/specs. In the B/W2 meta though a bunch of fast pokemon use scarfs and need even faster scarf pokemon to catch it. Mostly because genesect with its 99 speed made it a perfect scarfer that forced all the 100+ speeds to speed creep.
Scarfloom would be great before when it allowed it to outspeed a lot of fast threats, now he can't because a bunch of faster threats have their own scarfs. Can't spore gene because his common set is scarf and he's faster. Mence's most common set in this meta is scarfmoxie cleaner.
I used ScarfLoom on my OU suspect team that reached #1 on the PS ladder, and it never failed to impress. Spore coming off 393 Speed is always a surprise for Latios, and Tornadus-T doesn't ever see a super-fast Stone Edge coming. I don't know how "good" ScarfLoom is overall, but it fit a niche on my team and I don't have any regrets using it.
Oh and calling it "bad" is a big injustice, by no means is any variant of TechniLoom a bad Pokemon, they're the reason every single decent team these days has at least two Fighting resistances/immunities.
IN my opinion Scarfloom is just plain bad in this meta. In B/W 1 slower pokemon wore scarfs to catch up to base 100+ pokemon and faster pokemon chose band/specs. In the B/W2 meta though a bunch of fast pokemon use scarfs and need even faster scarf pokemon to catch it. Mostly because genesect with its 99 speed made it a perfect scarfer that forced all the 100+ speeds to speed creep.
Scarfloom would be great before when it allowed it to outspeed a lot of fast threats, now he can't because a bunch of faster threats have their own scarfs. Can't spore gene because his common set is scarf and he's faster. Mence's most common set in this meta is scarfmoxie cleaner.
I fail to see how this is relevant at all. What Pokemon above base 100 run scarf more now (note pokes that were already popular Scarfers) than they did in BW?
Pokemon above in the base 100-125 range: (unfortunately po.smogon.com is down)
1. Tornadus-T
2. Alakazam (no)
3. Dugtrio (no)
4. Starmie (no)
____ Base 110
5. Espeon (no)
6. Gengar (No)
7. Latias (no)
8. Latios (yes)
___ Base 108
9. Infernape (yes)
10. Keldeo
11. Terrakion (no)
_______ Base <108
12. Landorus (no) down BW from because of special landorus
13. Thunderus-T
14. Volcarona (no)
15. Celebi (no)
16. Jirachi (slightly)
17. Salamence (no)
Out of all of these Pokemon only Terrakion, Landorus, Thunderus-T Salamence, Infernape, and Latios. All of these Pokes used Scarf commonly in BW with really an increase only in Infernape and Latios' use of Choice Scarf. Landorus choie scarf usage went down signifgantly though due to the release of Sheer Force Landorus. The rest were already popular in BW.
agreeing with alot of people that ScarfLoom is quite useful and unexpected. For one your opponent never expects Breloom to outspeed their Salamence, Landorus, Volcarona, etc and cripple them with Spore. The other cool thing about ScarfLoom is the fact that it can run another coverage move over Mach Punch. Stone Edge is great to hit the Flying and Fire-types that think they can outspeed like Tornadus-T and Volcarona.
the set that Dragonuser posted seems very interasting and that thing looks like a pain to take down. Although Tornadus-T is quite common i still think that set is very effective in the sense that it just won't die with Leech Seed, Toxic Orb, and Protect. Keep up the great posts guys!
I apologise for the double posting but it is that time of the week again! We had a great discussion on Breloom and a few cool sets were brought up to so well done guys! and the next pokemon of the week is....
Heatran Type: Fire / Steel Base Stats: 91 HP / 90 Atk / 106 Def / 130 SpA / 106 SpD / 77 Spe Abilities: Flash Fire / Flame Body
Notable Moves: - Stealth Rock - Lava Plume - Fire Blast - Earthpower - Toxic - Sunny Day - Solar Beam - Torment - Taunt - Magma Storm - Overheat
Heatran like many other legendary pokemon is a pokemon to watch out for. Aside from it's 600 base stat total Heatran has alot of other good things going for it. For one Heatran has a great typing in Fire/Steel giving it useful resistances to Bug, Steel, Grass, Dark, Ghost, etc. Its ability Flash Fire also adds on to his great typing letting it gain a boost in its Fire-type attacks when being hit by a Fire-type move while also taking no damage. Heatran also has great bulk and a massive 130 special attack stat. However the greatest thing about Heatran is it's versatility, It is almost as if Heatran can run every set under the sun be it a defensive, offensive, choiced set or even a set designed to lure in and KO Politoed
Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 56 HP / 252 SAtk / 200 Spd Timid Nature - Magma Storm - Sunny Day - SolarBeam - Hidden Power [Ice]
This is my favourite Heatran set, it's a real monster, it was created by Tobes a while ago and is often reffered to as "Magma Trapper Tran." The goal of the set is to trap pokes like Politoed on the switch with Magma Storm, Sunny Day, then hit them with a Solarbeam. Being able to trap opposing weather is a huge asset to sun teams as it can give you permanent weather and clear the way for sun sweepers late-game. The EVs let you outspeed positive natured 70s and the rest is invested into HP for a little bit of extra bulk, Air Balloon can be swapped out for Leftovers or Shed Shell depending on the team.
Although this set dosen't have quite the same level of suprise factor it did when I first used it, it can still pull off amazing things and should be considered for a team slot on any sun team.
Get a sub up and then spam toxic+protect to stall anything. Lava plume is a general stab, the only thing that can stop this set is an opposint Heatran.
Heatran (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Magma Storm
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Explosion
This set has to be used Under sun. After u catch something with magma storm, u can trapkill things like Bulky toed, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Blissey, Latias, ect with the proper move.
I kinda feel like Heatran is limited to a support / defensive utility role in this metagame. It can't do anything to Rain in general unless it's running Sunny Day or a stalling set (which requires a defensive team to support it and those are barely viable); vs Sand, nearly all the common offensive members outspeed and OHKO, while Tyranitar hard walls you; and against Sun, you'll nearly always be facing Genesect + Dugtrio/ Terrakion.
On the other hand, there are still a huge number of threats which it counters / checks, including (obviously) Genesect, and it's one of the best SR users available.
Heatran has certainly been limited to a defensive role, but I feel like he changed from a premier offensive Pokémon to a premier defensive one. He's certainly capable of walling the living hell out of Sun Offense, one of the more potent teams in the BW2 metagame.
Nel: That first set is really interesting. Magma Storm 2HKOs Blissey with a bit of prior damage after the -2, and 2HKOs 252/252+ Tyranitar in sand with Earth Power. Of course, you'd probably need to watch out for Superpower or EQ, but this looks like an interesting partner to something like Scarf or Specs Latios.
The second set looks like it's done better by TormenTran. New thought: Viability of TormenTran with Toxic Spikes support (TormenTran can't fit Toxic on him moveset)? To really break Blissey and bulky waters?
I have tried running an offensive Scarf Heatran for my sun team:
Heatran @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Sp Atk / 252 Spe/ 4 Sp def
Modest nature (+Sp Atk -Atk)
Fire Blast
Fire Spin
Earth Power
Hidden Power Ice
This Heatran still has the offensive power of scarf, whilst maintaining the utility of Magma Storm Heatran. I have chosen Fire Spin over Magma Storm because of its accuracy, and I already have the more accurate Fire Blast to use for damaging purposes. I may just be reminiscing about old times, but I have found that this set works rather well.
EDIT: Jimbon is correct, Fire Spin is a poor idea. Use Overheat and Flamethrower instead.
TormentTran really isn't viable in this metagame at all from what I've seen. It can't function effectively without entry hazards, and in particular Toxic Spikes. Hazards are harder to keep up than at any other stage in BW or DPP, and Toxic Spikes are practically useless against every common playstyle except Sand offense (every team carries either Magic Bounce, Rapid Spin, Amoonguss / Tentacruel, or simply isn't hurt by them). Torment can still wall the crap out of some teams in the lategame, but it really has to rely on Lava Plume burns to get anything done. Not to mention, it's set up fodder for opposing Heatran (which has taken a skyrocket in usage since Genesect) and SR Tyranitar, Sub Terrakion / Keldeo, etc.
The other creative use of Heatran I've seen was Eruption Heatran in Sun with TR Cresselia, which was shown in a recent RMT from someone whose name I just forgot, and there have been different teams focused on the same core springing up too. The Heatran + Cresselia combo in Sun walls practically the entire metagame btw.
Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
By far my favorite Heatran set. Very few Heatran run max speed in this metagame, and even then, Heatran needs its bulk to take on the onslaught of hits from Genesect and Dragons. This set gives Heatran a great amount of bulk as well as a lot of firepower. The leftovers give it more durability, as well as the 8 Speed EVs let it outspeed opposing 4 spe Heatran. The set is amazing and the extra bulk really shows. For example, a Plus 1 Genesect does 43.03% - 50.77% to a 4 HP Heatran, which is a very good chance for a 2HKO with Rocks and confirmed with SR plus a layer of spikes- But, 252 HP Heatran takes only 36.01% - 42.48% from the same Genesect at plus 1, which even with Stealth Rock, Heatran can take two thunderbolts quite easily.
Anyways, I really encourage everyone to try out this Heatran, if they need a Stealth Rocker or just a bulky attacker :]
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SDef / 160 Spd
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Roar
- Sunny Day
- Protect
I've been using this random set to fill in some holes on my team and in general just absorb fire attacks aimed at my gene-scizor core. Sunny day is my only way of changing weather, roar for phazing, lava plume for burn. Protect is the only thing I don't use much, maybe I could swap it out for earth power?
EVs are to outspeed something, I don't remember what. Maybe breloom?
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 96 HP / 252 SDef / 160 Spd
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Roar
- Sunny Day
- Protect
I've been using this random set to fill in some holes on my team and in general just absorb fire attacks aimed at my gene-scizor core. Sunny day is my only way of changing weather, roar for phazing, lava plume for burn. Protect is the only thing I don't use much, maybe I could swap it out for earth power?
EVs are to outspeed something, I don't remember what. Maybe breloom?
evs are for sword dance scizor (adamant)
well, without toxic this set cant catch bulky water like Politoed meaning what u are only changing the weather till politoed comes back, and the same is for tyranitar. I dont know if it can work well.
Heatran (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Magma Storm
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Explosion
This set has to be used Under sun. After u catch something with magma storm, u can trapkill things like Bulky toed, Tentacruel, Tyranitar, Blissey, Latias, ect with the proper move.
A physical set for Heatran? Won't a special set be just as effective? Especially considering that Iron Head has poor coverage and Explosion does laughable damage nowadays.
Anyway, my favorite set is:
Heatran (M) @ Air Balloon Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Toxic
It is just a offensive set that helps me with some things. First, it scares away any dragon that doesn't carry a Fighting or Water move. It is also my counter to Genesect, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Scizor, opposing Heatran and Celebi, even those with Earth Power. It also checks many things, such as Gliscor. As long as I can mantain Air Balloon intact, Heatran can counter or check many things that it couldn't otherwise. From there, using the appropriate move is the way to go.
Toxic is chosen in the last slot to surprise bulky Water-type switch-ins. When my Heatran is no longer necessary, this move can surprise cripple them. With the nerf of Explosion, this is my only way to make Heatran have some utility after it has done its job. I am thinking of replacing this with Will-O-Wisp, so that I can surprise things like Gyarados and Fighting-types. And many bulky Waters are just as crippled by a burn as they would be by Toxic.
Basically this is a version of ThunderBlunder's set, that trades bulk for speed, but I've been using this before ThunderBlunder posted his bulky version. I've found this version of Heatran to be a bad Stealth Rocker, at least in my experience, Heatran almost never had an opportunity to setup Stealth Rock. Either because it was confronted with a bulky Water-type, or because in the instant that I could use Stealth Rock, there was another thing that Heatran had to do instead. It can be decent if you really have no other ways to use this, or if you use a defensive version, or if you are using it on a sun team. Otherwise, there are better options to setup Stealth Rock :)
Also, about other sets posted on this thread:
I've used TormentTran a long time ago, it's a shame that I don't remember if it was effective or not.
I've used MagmaTran with Sunny Day, not on a sun team, but on a sandstorm team. Although I admit that sandstorm teams have better ways to win the weather war, especially considering that Sunny Day overrides sandstorm, this Heatran helped me in some few instances when I lost weather wars against rain teams. I've seen the analysis on Smogon saying that this could be also used on non-sun teams, and that's what I've done :)
Also, I must agree with someone that said that the metagame is too hostile to Heatran to use him on a offensive way. The set that I use is a supportive attacker. It helps against some threats that I would have difficulty to defeat otherwise.
Heatran (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Overheat
- Flamethrower
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earth Power
Yeah, I'd agree with Bizdiz that Scarf Heatran is pretty good in this metagame. Given how Heatran already causes loads of problem for Sun Teams and they usually only have Dugtrio for it, it works out great. It beats Genesect + Dugtrio combinations, with Heatran being able to switch into any of Genesect's moves (bar rare Hidden Power [Ground]) and outspeed Dugtrio as it switches in. If you get Stealth Rock up then you beat Dugtrio even if it doesn't directly switch into Heatran as it outspeeds it on the following turn. After Dugtrio is gone, there's really nothing a lot of Sun Teams have for Scarf Heatran, especially when it can freely spam Sun boosted Overheats everywhere. The main things I can think of are random Scarf Terrakion, but also EQ Venusaur and CB Victini with Brick Break, albeit are a little more rare. I prefer Timid over Modest however, just to be able to revenge +1 Offensive Dragonite and such. I've also used Overheat and Flamethrower over Fire Blast and Fire Spin. For a scarfer, you're moreso a hit and run 'mon, not a stay in and keep hitting stuff, which is why Overheat is usually your best bet. Flamethrower is a secondary STAB option alongside Overheat, but for when Heatran can sweep lategame when Dragons and such are gone.
If you're running any sort of trapping move, you should be running Magma Storm at least, as Fire Spin it still pretty pitiful in terms of base power and ideally you don't want to be locking yourself into that. I find Magma Storm really unnecessary on Scarf Tran, as you still aren't breaking through the bulky waters that Heatran can trap with a Sunny Day Magma Storm set that has already been mentioned itt. Anything else that Heatran would want to trap and avoid it from switching (special walls) usually have recovery and aren't being beaten by Magma Storm alone, especially when you have to risk it's shaky accuracy. You still fail to beat Politoed, the #1 target for Magma Storm Tran with this set, which is why you should probably stick to that set if you're using Heatran to win weather wars.
This isn't a full set, but I just wanted to mention that Scarf Heatran can run Stone Edge on a Volc-weak team to easily OHKO Offensive sets with 0 EVs and a -ve nature and easily 2HKO bulky Volc with the same. It's pretty niche but I've done this a couple of times since it can free up a teamslot you would otherwise have needed for a different Volcorona check.
This is especially useful on offensive teams since there aren't many solid checks to Volcorona in the offensive spectrum.
Potentially a stupid question - what is the full Shed Shell+RestTalk set for Heatran? I've heard it mentioned a lot, but never actually seen it, either in theory or practice.
I personally find Heatran to be one of the most reliable SR users in this meta, especially with Genesect being so popular. Dugtrio is a bitch, but Shed Shell is da bawmb.
Heatran @ Shed Shell / Air Balloon
248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
Flash Fire
~ Lava Plume / Magma Storm
~ Stealth Rock
~ Toxic / Earth Power
~ Protect / Roar
Lava plume is a reliable way to deal damage and has a chance to burne. Magma Storm is a nasty surprise if you do lead with Heatran vs Genesect - they generally U-turn to Trio and get KOed through Focus Sash (75% of the time >w>). SR is SR, Toxic / EP depending on who you want to beat - Chansey/Blissey or other Heatrans (EP recommended with air balloon). Protect to scout, Roar to phaze.
