Matches with human opponents are indeed possible without revealing teams. Read the thread you're posting in.
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R.I.P. Leads and Scouting
- Thread starter TheMaskedNitpicker
- Start date
I have, and have the game. Have tested a variety of methods (though I do not read Japanese, admittedly, so it is possible I might have missed something), and none thus far have yielded a hidden option. Apparently IR (which I have yet to try) alters this, but the mode is limited in nature.
An option is an option. IR may be different, but not enough to justify ignoring it.
In which case we should be talking about creating an 'IR mode' option on Shoddy, rather than a 'unrevealed' option - IR mode has a lot more differences and quirks from standard competitive play than merely the unrevealed option. Damage calculations given a level cap of 50 will be substantially different, in themselves, and there are a whole range of other factors like unavailable moves (since many are learned after level 50)/ Pokemon (since some evolve after level 50) to consider.
In its own way, it is as much of a departure from normal competitive play as Miracle Shooter mode is likely to be. Personally, I find it somewhat ridiculous that we might seriously consider predicating tier-formation and metagame analysis based on the mode.
Eh... it's not a 'Cap'. It likely 'levels down' the Pokemon in the battle if they're above 50. Like Flat Battle in HGSS. So you can use that L56 Dragonite in the IR Battles. It'd just be dropped to L50, retaining all moves and being a Dragonite.
This is also what I was assuming. There are some differences this way, but not too many.
However, if I'm wrong, that changes things. I did some searching, but I can't find anything that confirms it one way or another.
Hm, well I don't have another copy or player to test with, but from what I've heard from friends, overlevelled Pokemon simply aren't available for use. Again, I might be wrong, and if I am it does change things, but we still need to consider the fact that we'll be looking at a very different set of damage calculations and metagame imperatives solely in order to keep the unrevealed option running.
Smogon is a hub for more players than just those who play on Shoddy, but in predicating our analysis and tier formations on IR play we'll make ourselves largely irrelevant to the bulk of Wireless and Link battle players. We're kidding ourselves if we think that IR is going to be the favoured method of competitive play, and we're -also- kidding ourselves if we think that we're going to favour IR and Wifi modes equally when making the decisions that shape the formation of the Smogon metagame. One or the other is going to be the 'standard mode' of play and the other will be a sideshow.
Substantive point for me is that this change was likely made with the future in mind, and was always going to be necessary at some point given the continued success of the series, and the corresponding demand for more and more Pokemon. 'Prediction' is only possible when there are a small number of possibilities to predict from - eventually the pool of viable Pokemon will grow to such an extent that it just won't be possible to discern a 'likely lineup' from the nature of your opponent's first few moves.
I hate to post since I haven't read the entire thread (I mean, 18 pages? Geeze.) And I don't want to make a fool of myself by bringing up points that everyone else has brought up. But here goes.
I like pokemon that are slightly gimicky for joke value and for there LOL SURPRISE factor. I mean, if my opponent found out I have a LINOONE on my team in the beginning in an OU game... they will automatically know its a belly drumming linoone. And it practically becomes useless (aside for the whole "oh I gotta be prepared for that" bit).
I feel like this ruins a bit of surprise strategies, such as baton pass recipient octillery, or JUST the mere fact that you have an Electivire...
Just as I feel that stealth rock literally CRUSHED the usability of certain types of pokemon, I feel like this "pre-reveal" thing takes pokemon who require that little bit of surprise and makes them useless.
Maybe thats just me. I may be a part of that small percentage of players who likes to go against the current metagame, take underdogs that have potential, and win with a little bit of pzazz and trickery. Now, tricks like belly drum linoone, or trick room parasect... I feel like their usefulness had just halved from their already lack luster existence.
I like pokemon that are slightly gimicky for joke value and for there LOL SURPRISE factor. I mean, if my opponent found out I have a LINOONE on my team in the beginning in an OU game... they will automatically know its a belly drumming linoone. And it practically becomes useless (aside for the whole "oh I gotta be prepared for that" bit).
I feel like this ruins a bit of surprise strategies, such as baton pass recipient octillery, or JUST the mere fact that you have an Electivire...
Just as I feel that stealth rock literally CRUSHED the usability of certain types of pokemon, I feel like this "pre-reveal" thing takes pokemon who require that little bit of surprise and makes them useless.
Maybe thats just me. I may be a part of that small percentage of players who likes to go against the current metagame, take underdogs that have potential, and win with a little bit of pzazz and trickery. Now, tricks like belly drum linoone, or trick room parasect... I feel like their usefulness had just halved from their already lack luster existence.
Ugh..... I hate the whole "let me see all your pokes before we battle. (in a goofy voice)" type thing I swear it ruins alot of matches for me. It is crucial to have some secrets that is what gives you the tactical edge at important moments, and it kinda ruins scouts and gives people easy predictions without scouting. *sigh*
The reason this isn't a "godawful change" is because it makes the game significantly more skill-based as opposed to "guess the opponent's whole team before you do anything" luck-based. It doesn't diminish skill, it doesn't make legitimate surprise (not gimmicky bullshit like using bad pokemon for the sake of it) inviable, it just changes the way the "first section" of the game is played.
A lot of the backlash here is completely unfounded and based on playing a metagame that very few people have actually experienced. Having experienced said metagame, I can say with absolute certainty that this change definitely emphasizes skill, and definitely doesn't make "surprise" a thing of the past.
A lot of the backlash here is completely unfounded and based on playing a metagame that very few people have actually experienced. Having experienced said metagame, I can say with absolute certainty that this change definitely emphasizes skill, and definitely doesn't make "surprise" a thing of the past.
Theres a quote from some famous person that goes "knowing is half the battle" Alot of people consider it a SKILL to SCOUT your opponents team and figure out whats there while revealing as little of your team as possible.
Also please tell me how surprise isnt a thing of the past? if you have a electivire on your team and your opponent knows about it, do you think he's going to t-bolt your gyara, or go for his 2nd option to deal with it? The entire purpose of magnezone is its surprise factor. If a player with skarm/forry/scizor sees you have magnezone on your team, they are never going to leave their poke in, probably bringing it in once in a while to sponge a hit then switch/whirlwind/U-turn out immediately. you either bring zone in on a double switch and get nothing, or leave zone as deadweight the entire match.
Seven Deadly Sins is spot-on here. It accelerates the pace of the match, and creates an environment that requires a much greater evaluation of risk vs. reward. Take, for example, Shaymin vs. Suicune.
Classic Rules'
Shaymin vs. Suicune
The player will think, let me just Seed Flare here to hit whatever comes in ridiculously hard while forcing out Suicune.
New Rules
Shaymin vs. Suicune
Hm, I could Seed Flare here, but I already know that he has a Heatran ready to switch in and potentially destroy my team with a SubToxic movepool, so maybe Earth Power is the way to go. But then if I do that, what's stopping the Sazando I saw from coming in and obliterating me with Draco Meteor?
The only difference is that, in the classic case, the first scenario would occur the first time around, while the new rules skip it and go straight to the second thought process. So if you see that Lucario waiting in the wings, you need to really think about whether or not you want to let your Gliscor go down. Of course it might not matter when it turns out to be HP Ice PlotLuke.
Classic Rules'
Shaymin vs. Suicune
The player will think, let me just Seed Flare here to hit whatever comes in ridiculously hard while forcing out Suicune.
New Rules
Shaymin vs. Suicune
Hm, I could Seed Flare here, but I already know that he has a Heatran ready to switch in and potentially destroy my team with a SubToxic movepool, so maybe Earth Power is the way to go. But then if I do that, what's stopping the Sazando I saw from coming in and obliterating me with Draco Meteor?
The only difference is that, in the classic case, the first scenario would occur the first time around, while the new rules skip it and go straight to the second thought process. So if you see that Lucario waiting in the wings, you need to really think about whether or not you want to let your Gliscor go down. Of course it might not matter when it turns out to be HP Ice PlotLuke.
This is a fantastic addition to competitive Pokemon, I'll now be able to ragequit much sooner than in 4th gen, saving both myself and my opponent a great deal of time which would have otherwise gone wasted.
Im still getting into the mindset of competitive battling but if you can be sure your opponent is not going to hit your Gyarados with an electirc attack in fear of you will switch. Would you not be able to assume what his "2nd option" is and switch to what you think could counter it best? And if the opponent knows you have a magnezone and therefore never gets to use his steel type isn't your pokemon still effectively taking that threat out? Also you quoted G.I. Joe.
scizor will still be usable to u-turn on stuff. skarm/forry can still be used to tank a hit (leaf storm/DM/whatev) then leave. entire TEAMS will be rendered useless by this.
HO teams, well opponent auto realizes what wall he needs to save and doesnt risk it, all your lures automatically fail and you lose.
teambuilding takes skill. strategy takes skill. mindgames is almost all luck. If you knew your opponent from past games or had an idea what his playstyle was like, then maybe you could make a case for it being skill.
Here's my example
random player brings heatran on your scizor. you know nothing about his playstyle/habits because its very very early in the game. do you switch to your own heatran to absorb fire move or zapdos to dodge the earth power? he knows what two pokes you have and that whatever the hell he does its 50-50 shot. whatever move you make its still 50% chance you die, 50% chance you get off scot free. If any high-level player can come up with a solution that wins a majority of the time please enlighten me.
Um, have better answers to Heatran? Really that kind of scenario occurs even when they don't know your team.
I don't believe this new mechanic is a bad thing but I can't definitely see where some of these claims are coming from. It does become more rps because frankly, you either win the turn, lose it, or both come out in a neutral position. Every big play we know in today's gameplay, such as double switching and unconventional moves to catch an unexpected switch, the kind of gamebreakers we flip over, will no longer be present. Situations like those become standard play, and after awhile of trying to overanalyse and out predict the opponent, eventually you stop predicting and simply play through. I can imagine it becoming somewhat stagnant and creating a period of dissatisfaction with the game.
I don't believe this new mechanic is a bad thing but I can't definitely see where some of these claims are coming from. It does become more rps because frankly, you either win the turn, lose it, or both come out in a neutral position. Every big play we know in today's gameplay, such as double switching and unconventional moves to catch an unexpected switch, the kind of gamebreakers we flip over, will no longer be present. Situations like those become standard play, and after awhile of trying to overanalyse and out predict the opponent, eventually you stop predicting and simply play through. I can imagine it becoming somewhat stagnant and creating a period of dissatisfaction with the game.
Hey, what happens to Zoroark when you show your team to the opponent? Is it visible as a Zoroark, or does he already look like another Pokemon on your team, before the battle starts?
Knowing whether or not your opponent has a Zoroark makes a huge difference - it's a shame that teams are revealed before the battle.
Knowing whether or not your opponent has a Zoroark makes a huge difference - it's a shame that teams are revealed before the battle.
My point was, trying to play mind games leaves far too many possibilities to be sure. I believe getting to see your opponent's team will force people to become more unpredictable and if you get stuck in a 50/50 chance like you mentioned then that is unfortunate and you might just have to guess and revise your strategy later so that you can hope you aren't put in the position where you have to make that kind of choice often.
The trick will be to use suprising sets, not suprising Pokémon.
Don't take the view that I like this. I think it isn't horrible but I'd prefer it not to exist.
Too. Many. Mind. Games! Head will be hurting...
Don't take the view that I like this. I think it isn't horrible but I'd prefer it not to exist.
Too. Many. Mind. Games! Head will be hurting...
I can't agree in the least with any talk of "more skill based" and what are you talking about with this "Legitimate Suprise"? Instead of bad pokemon for the sake of it you'll get "bad" move sets for the sake of it as that's the only way you can have any surprise anymore (which for some reason is being held up as a "good thing" and talked about as "mind games").
And of course I've already said my piece on how required "experience" in the new meta is so I won't bring it up again.
I think people are taking this way out of proportion. Yes, I agree that scouting is a skill and yes, it is less important this game. However I think that this is greatly outweighed by the possibilities of new mind games. When you know your opponent's team from the start the person who is rewarded is the one who can properly guess the opponent's game plan AND have a means to counter it. That's the same thing we have now, we just skipped the blind guessing phase and jumped straight to the chess game of countering game plans. I think seeing Zoroark beforehand is a boon for him if anything. Now your opponent always has to be nervous that any Pokémon you send out is Zoro. They'll be hesitant to use Psychic against Machamp for fear of him being Zoroark and Nasty Plotting up. But at this point it's almost all theorymoning. But, I've read a few of the first Wifi warstories that have trickled in and they look, if anything, to be more interesting and tense than today's battles. For example:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79597
I dunno, I know people really hate change but I think I would be upset if nothing new were added to Pokémon this generation. We've gotten one thing to turn everything on its head each generation so far so why not this one. Yes it's different, but if you want to keep playing Gen IV Pokémon, there'll be ways to do so - there are simulators that run the Gen II and Gen I metagames still. But just because you don't like the new changes that Gamefreak has made doesn't mean we should devise elaborate workarounds so we can continue playing in our comfortable shells.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79597
I dunno, I know people really hate change but I think I would be upset if nothing new were added to Pokémon this generation. We've gotten one thing to turn everything on its head each generation so far so why not this one. Yes it's different, but if you want to keep playing Gen IV Pokémon, there'll be ways to do so - there are simulators that run the Gen II and Gen I metagames still. But just because you don't like the new changes that Gamefreak has made doesn't mean we should devise elaborate workarounds so we can continue playing in our comfortable shells.
I have little to add since I haven't read all the bloody pages, but...
... There goes any and all forms of Baton Pass. We are practically always going to lead with Ninjask, so if our team is revealed, the opponent can just pick a lead guaranteed to beat Ninjask. Not to mention my Lucario is now obviously the receiver, you don't have to be a genius to recognize that.
There better be a turn off button that doesn't limit you to lv.50 crap. Yeah there's more strategy, blah blah blah. But it also completely destroys some strategies. If I sound selfish just because this ruins my team, well, I don't think I'm selfish at all. Would you like it if I suddenly enforced a rule that made your team completely un-viable?
... There goes any and all forms of Baton Pass. We are practically always going to lead with Ninjask, so if our team is revealed, the opponent can just pick a lead guaranteed to beat Ninjask. Not to mention my Lucario is now obviously the receiver, you don't have to be a genius to recognize that.
There better be a turn off button that doesn't limit you to lv.50 crap. Yeah there's more strategy, blah blah blah. But it also completely destroys some strategies. If I sound selfish just because this ruins my team, well, I don't think I'm selfish at all. Would you like it if I suddenly enforced a rule that made your team completely un-viable?
