R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

[Melfice_Cyrum]

The other point to consider is the fact that 'prediction' is possible within the confines of DPP (and, most likely, BW) because there are a very limited number of Pokemon capable of presenting a credible threat to those we have decided belong to the OU tier. One might postulate the existence of certain Pokemon in his/her opponent's line up based on the Pokemon they -have- revealed due to their popularity and their synergy with the rest of the team, but this is only possible because there are only so many Pokemon capable of fulfilling a given function and with a certain set of type resistances available. When this is no longer the case, and there are literally hundreds of possibilities, prediction becomes less and less about strategy and more about simple guesswork. A system such as this, when you consider this, is more than merely sensible - it was inevitable and necessary.

That there will be a 6th generation of Pokemon to follow BW is almost certain. That there will be a 7th after it, also likely. Pokemon has shown no signs of losing steam over the years, and as long as it does not, GF will keep cashing in on it. Every generation will broaden the scope of competitive Pokemon. Presuming they continue constructing new Pokemon with an eye to competitivity and balance, we are eventually going to reach a point where we have such an overabundance of viable Pokemon that it just becomes impossible to make any kind of accurate judgement on the character of an opponent's team -without- a system of this kind.

I concur.

As it stood already the "prediction" that takes place is little more than barely educated guesswork as is, which relies solely on your ability to recollect what counters what, and then guess (NOT predict) whether your opponent acts in the proper manner. As the pool of usable Pokemon increases, the ability to make even an educated guess disappears and then it's like throwing a dart at a board blindfolded.

You can't call the guesswork we're doing now "skill" because the only skill involved is your knowledge of the information in the Smogon archives on movesets. Without seeing anything, you're just making a best guess and hoping you're right. Which isn't skill, it's luck. Entire matches were won or lost on whether your guess was accurate. That sounds more like luck than skill. While this addition does remove that element of surprise, it means that element of blind guessing is gone.

For those I've seen that argue that this adds unnecessary and pointless additional mindgames, that is sadly inaccurate. In fact, seeing the teams doesn't add or take away from the mindgames you already played. It's still a game of "Do I know that you know that I know?" only now both sides know species and gender. Now instead of thinking "Will he switch to Pokemon A if I use attack 1, or will he anticipate that I'll excpect a switch", you subsititute "Pokemon A" and what not with specific information.

Also, I feel seeing teams does NOT diminish the use of Zoroark. In fact I feel it ADDs a layer to the mindgames. In addition to the "Do I know that you know that I know?" round comes a bonus round of "Is this Zoroark or not?" Your opponent has to contend that every time you switch in a 'mon or bring one out, that the Pokemon he's seeing is possibly Zoroark instead. Now he has to contend with TWO possible threats. The fact he saw Zoroark first means you could psyche opponents into making mistakes while they trying to hunt down your Illusionist.

All in all, I consider this new feature a huge improvement. After all, GF isn't making the games with us in mind. They're doing it more for the VGC and PBR crowd, for the people who aren't hardcore competitive battlers. So we can't complain when we don't get what we think would suit us best.

 

[bubbly]

This is completely ridiculous. If the pokemon simulators pick up on this I swear I will stop playing.

 

[Pit[y]Lord]

This is completely ridiculous. If the pokemon simulators pick up on this I swear I will stop playing.

I like this guys attitude. Stick to your believes man! We cant force you to play while everyone else enjoys the game. Or tries it out at least.

 

[Veedrock]

May be a bit late here, but I think a the "screen cover" suggestion is a ridiculous idea. There is zero way of enforcing this over wifi, and the "neutral judge" argument isn't valid when the situation where one could be present doesn't dictate the use of wifi. And on a side but related note, I'd like to see us simulate wifi rather than local play this generation.

As for playing IR, there are several big changes about playing level 50, I just can't quite remember them all (most relate to speed). The one that sticks out to me is that Base Speed 60 using a choice scarf can outpace Base 110 Speed.

Frankly, this will change the fundamentals of both team building and battle mentality, but that does not mean they're obsolete or even worsened aspects of the game, just different. Ultimately, that's the consequence of a new generation of Pokemon, not just a mechanic change.

 

[Yllnath]

I feel that ShadesOfSolomon and Melfice_Cyrum said everything I wanted to say. I feel that this change is for the good. Even if it somewhat limits gimmicks (I don't believe it does), it really does bring educated prediction far more back in to the game.
No disrespect for all the great players of DP, but even if you know all the viable pokemon in the OU metagame, and pretty much any viable set, and you're also knowledgeable about most of the other pokes, playing a match against a decent player is still a big piece of guess work, whether you want to call it an educated guess or not.
With this change, the battle changes from "what 6 pokemon am I up against?" to "I see 6 pokemons, what sets will the run, what is the strategy behind the 6, and how does my team match up to that?". And every turn, you have to make educated predictions about what will happen, and I feel making those predictions are even harder, just because you know the opponents pokemon and you know that your opponent knows about your pokemon too. And vice versa.
You have a dragon out and you know the opponent has Scizor and Heatran waiting in the wings. Do you throw a fire move to hit a possible incoming Scizor. Or will you EQ, expecting Heatran to switch in. Or do you throw a Draco Meteor if your opponent does not decide to switch, or because it's the most neutral bet? It's exactly this kind of prediction that I feel is far more interesting to play with. It makes the game far more strategical, and less guessing what might happen and what might be on the opponents team.

tl;dr I'm totally in favour of this new concept, and I really hope that we don't forego the showing of pokemon, just because the change is to big from Gen IV.
Maybe we should also turn back the special/physical split somehow, because that change was also to big in contrast to Gen III?

 

[doomvendingmachine]

I was like "omg this sucks" at first but I won't knock it until I try it.

More importantly, this will hurt two types of pokemon the most; scouters and predictable pokemon. Ofc uturn is still a boss move, being able to switch to a counter, but now you lose the additional ability to gain new knowledge of your opponents team when you use it. More importantly, predictable pokemon will be garbage. Your still not sure weather mence will be mixmence or ddmence; it doesn't take a genius to figure out what bllssey's fat ass is gonna do.

 

[Quantumpencil]

This change is certainly for the better if confirmed.

Not knowing what pokemon your opponent has doesn't in anyway remove a level of skill from the game, but a level of guesswork. I feel as though this point has already been made extremely well in this thread, and am happy to see some people not simply dismissing this concept.

 

[Screw-On Head]

I feel mostly neutral about this change with one exception: I feel it completely destroys Zoroark's chance to truly shine in competitive play. This makes me sad. Unless perhaps there is a way to disguise it even when your team is revealed. That would be peachy.

Either way, there should be a testing period, followed by a voting period to see what the community truly prefers. Screw game loyalty if it turns out to be un-fun making. But we shall see...

Actually, now that I think about it. Back in the days of Netbattle you had the option as a player to have your team be secret or not. Most people preferred not to reveal their Pokemon unless they were playing very casually and didn't care much about winning. I usually revealed my team as it didn't matter much to me and my teams sucked anyway. But despite that the option was there I never heard of tournaments or top players that would force you to play with a revealed team. Revealing your team was seen as a casual thing as it took away competitive aspects.

Of course, this a new game, new pokemon, new metagame and things could be different. Again I say: we shall see...

 

[Johnny_Darko]

Actually there is a lot of strategy involved in team selection as you will only face SOME of the other player's Pokemon. Predicting which he will choose is in itself a mindgame.

No, you face all of them. You see the other person's team and then pick your 6 Pokemon in the order you want them to be listed in and the first one you picked becomes your lead. It isn't like PBR where you only pick 3.

By the way, this still isn't entirely confirmed as both Wireless and WiFi have a lot of options people might not be toying with due to the language barrier.

 

[CWW]

Singles random is 3v3 where you pick 3 out of 6 from what I understand.

 

[Agammemnon]

It totally sucks, removing the surprise effect.
"Azelf and 5 physical sweepers ? Ok let's adapt myself to HO"
"Hippowdon, Blissey, Skarm... Ok let's do it stall"
"OMG he has a Luke. I won't sacrifice my [dedicated wall]"

Seriously ?
If skill comes in 3 layers, it's like rapid spinning all of it -_-

 

[viol and bass]

So Wifi and IR connections have been tested, but has anyone tested "Wireless" (It's still an option if I recall correctly)?

 

[Darigan]

No, you face all of them. You see the other person's team and then pick your 6 Pokemon in the order you want them to be listed in and the first one you picked becomes your lead. It isn't like PBR where you only pick 3.

By the way, this still isn't entirely confirmed as both Wireless and WiFi have a lot of options people might not be toying with due to the language barrier.

Well, I did some research on Youtube and found videos that lead me to think that 3x3 and 6x6 are both possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7yz5nkNdR8
This is a triple battle where the players obviously pick 3 out of 6 to battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUSHOSN_ge4
This is a 6x6 single. It doesn't show him picking the pokemon but the good news is that he uses Zoroak and actually makes good use of Illusion, so Z fans who were afraid it would be useless may cheer a bit.

 

[BKC]

Hipmonlee has said everything I've been thinking.

Also, I think there should be two options, one for concealed teams before a battle, and one for shown teams, it would make everyone happy.

 

[Pit[y]Lord]

Well, I did some research on Youtube and found videos that lead me to think that 3x3 and 6x6 are both possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7yz5nkNdR8
This is a triple battle where the players obviously pick 3 out of 6 to battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUSHOSN_ge4
This is a 6x6 single. It doesn't show him picking the pokemon but the good news is that he uses Zoroak and actually makes good use of Illusion, so Z fans who were afraid it would be useless may cheer a bit.

I dont get tripple battles yet, but that 6v6 singles was a sexy fight. I like how he used Zoroark, and how he bluffed the Heat Wave from it, Forcing Shanderaa out just for it to get KOed.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

I dont get tripple battles yet, but that 6v6 singles was a sexy fight. I like how he used Zoroark, and how he bluffed the Heat Wave from it, Forcing Shanderaa out just for it to get KOed.

The opponent should have realized something was up when "Zapdos" took so little Stealth Rock damage.

 

[doomvendingmachine]

Because of the way illusion works, you get to know ahead of time what pokemon zoroark will be trying to impersonate. Kinda depressing to be zoroark now : /

 

[the_artic_one]

Because of the way illusion works, you get to know ahead of time what pokemon zoroark will be trying to impersonate. Kinda depressing to be zoroark now : /

Do you really? Because if it's like pbr you get to completely re-order your team thus changing zoroark's disguise.

 

[Pit[y]Lord]

Do you really? Because if it's like pbr you get to completely re-order your team thus changing zoroark's disguise.

This.

Even if you cant rearange the team from 1 to 6 at the start, you can still change the order DURING a fight, making Zoro even more unpredictable IMO.

 

[vielIeis]

So this is really true?

 

[some hero]

This is an okay change.

I will know which of my Pokemon is important against a stall team.I hate stall...Also this might force people to be more creative with movesets.

 

[AxelLow]

Well, I did some research on Youtube and found videos that lead me to think that 3x3 and 6x6 are both possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7yz5nkNdR8
This is a triple battle where the players obviously pick 3 out of 6 to battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUSHOSN_ge4
This is a 6x6 single. It doesn't show him picking the pokemon but the good news is that he uses Zoroak and actually makes good use of Illusion, so Z fans who were afraid it would be useless may cheer a bit.

Lol if singles looks like that, then I'll have no problems with it (for 6v6 that is). I also liked the showing of Ono's Brick Break on Natto xD

 

[GLS]

Well, I did some research on Youtube and found videos that lead me to think that 3x3 and 6x6 are both possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7yz5nkNdR8
This is a triple battle where the players obviously pick 3 out of 6 to battle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUSHOSN_ge4
This is a 6x6 single. It doesn't show him picking the pokemon but the good news is that he uses Zoroak and actually makes good use of Illusion, so Z fans who were afraid it would be useless may cheer a bit.

That battle made me realize that you can spot a Zoroak by how much SR damage it takes. If you see a Zapdos come in and only take 12% you know it's not a real Zapdos. That is interesting.

 

[AxelLow]

Those battles are actually a good showing of the new system. I'll still have to try it out before I make my final judgement, but this doesn't seem so bad now that the vids are out.

 

[Pit[y]Lord]

Lol if singles looks like that, then I'll have no problems with it (for 6v6 that is). I also liked the showing of Ono's Brick Break on Natto xD

What did you think singles would look like?

I mean they knew each other pokemon but the dude still mindgamed the guy into switching the candle ghost into a dark pulse. Still it was kinda fail on the other guys part since he didnt notice that "Zapdos" lost only 12,5% from stealth rock, instead of the regular 25%. Must have been because of the language.