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RU Metagame Analysis - Discussion Phase
- Thread starter DittoCrow
- Start date
Lanturn
Lilligant
Cofagrigus
Rotom-C
Lanturn is a team player - it sponges special moves for the team, especially Electric-, Fire-, and Water-type moves, and can provide some paralysis and Heal Bell support. Its slow Volt Switch lets it bring in teammates for free. It's a very useful mon to have on a team.
Nothing sweeps like Lilligant. With Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance boosting its Speed and Special Defense, revenge-killing Lilligant is only done by a select few RU mons. A pokemon that makes Lanturn a liability is a fearsome threat in my eyes.
Cofagrigus is still the #1 spinblocker that also packs a punch with Trick Room and Nasty Plot. Its defensive set is nice for checking physical sweepers, too, I guess, but the OTR is the more noteworthy set imo, since it can pull off sweeps relatively easily. There are many Psychic-mons weak to Ghosts for Cofagrigus to take advantage.
Rotom-C > Slowking, imo. Slowking has too many exploitable weakness in this meta; bug, electric, grass, dark, and ghosts are all prevalent moves in RU. Rotom-C is also a victim of Fire-, Bug-, and Ice-type moves, but it has a niche in its ability to Volt Switch with relative ease. Unlike Manectric and Galvantula, Rotom-C has STAB Leaf Storm to threaten Lanturn and even Nidoqueen from switching in.
Rotom-C also has great stats, with a good balance of power, bulk, and Speed. Granted it's not fast enough to check Moltres and Entei, but it does check sweepers like Feraligatr, Kabutops, Magmortar, and NIDOQUEEN pretty well. It's also a decent check to Lilligant, being able to take a neutral Hidden Power and retaliate with Trick / T-Wave. It's fast enough to be an efficient Scarfer, although it runs the EB set really well, which blarajan introduced to me. With Grass-Fire-Electric offense, it's very hard to safely switch into Rotom-C. Thanks to Volt Switch, good bulk, and versatile offense, Rotom-C makes for a very solid player in RU; not to the same level as Rotom-W in OU, but still damn good.
Lilligant
Cofagrigus
Rotom-C
Lanturn is a team player - it sponges special moves for the team, especially Electric-, Fire-, and Water-type moves, and can provide some paralysis and Heal Bell support. Its slow Volt Switch lets it bring in teammates for free. It's a very useful mon to have on a team.
Nothing sweeps like Lilligant. With Sleep Powder and Quiver Dance boosting its Speed and Special Defense, revenge-killing Lilligant is only done by a select few RU mons. A pokemon that makes Lanturn a liability is a fearsome threat in my eyes.
Cofagrigus is still the #1 spinblocker that also packs a punch with Trick Room and Nasty Plot. Its defensive set is nice for checking physical sweepers, too, I guess, but the OTR is the more noteworthy set imo, since it can pull off sweeps relatively easily. There are many Psychic-mons weak to Ghosts for Cofagrigus to take advantage.
Rotom-C > Slowking, imo. Slowking has too many exploitable weakness in this meta; bug, electric, grass, dark, and ghosts are all prevalent moves in RU. Rotom-C is also a victim of Fire-, Bug-, and Ice-type moves, but it has a niche in its ability to Volt Switch with relative ease. Unlike Manectric and Galvantula, Rotom-C has STAB Leaf Storm to threaten Lanturn and even Nidoqueen from switching in.
Rotom-C also has great stats, with a good balance of power, bulk, and Speed. Granted it's not fast enough to check Moltres and Entei, but it does check sweepers like Feraligatr, Kabutops, Magmortar, and NIDOQUEEN pretty well. It's also a decent check to Lilligant, being able to take a neutral Hidden Power and retaliate with Trick / T-Wave. It's fast enough to be an efficient Scarfer, although it runs the EB set really well, which blarajan introduced to me. With Grass-Fire-Electric offense, it's very hard to safely switch into Rotom-C. Thanks to Volt Switch, good bulk, and versatile offense, Rotom-C makes for a very solid player in RU; not to the same level as Rotom-W in OU, but still damn good.
Gothitelle
Quagsire
Escavalier
Archeops
Quagsire
Escavalier
Archeops
Smeargle
Escavalier
Lanturn
Spirtomb
Escavalier
Lanturn
Spirtomb
Smeargle
Slowking
Rotom-C
Escavalier
Slowking
Rotom-C
Escavalier
Lanturn
Cofagrigus
Rotom-C
Feraligatr
I can't believe no one has mentioned Feraligatr yet. I really think he deserves to be on this list, due to his great power and bulk, as well as his many effeective sets.
Cofagrigus
Rotom-C
Feraligatr
I can't believe no one has mentioned Feraligatr yet. I really think he deserves to be on this list, due to his great power and bulk, as well as his many effeective sets.
Gothitelle
Escavalier
Lanturn
COfagrigus
Escavalier
Lanturn
COfagrigus
Slot #7 Votes:
10 Smeargle
3 Escavalier
3 Gothitelle
3 Lanturn
2 Slowking
1 Lilligant
1 Rotom-C
Slot #8 Votes:
6 Lanturn
6 Escavalier
2 Gothitelle
2 Slowking
2 Lilligant
1 Spiritomb
1 Quagsire
1 Smeargle
1 Accelgor
1 Cofagrigus
Slot #9 Votes:
5 Escavalier
5 Rotom-C
2 Cofagrigus
2 Slowking
2 Gothitelle
2 Lanturn
2 Smeargle
1 Sigilyph
1 Hitmonchan
1 Spiritomb
Slot #10 Votes:
5 Spiritomb
5 Lanturn
2 Slowking
2 Lilligant
2 Rotom-C
2 Smeargle
1 Archeops
1 Escavalier
1 Typhlosion
1 Feraligatr
1 Cofagrigus
Smeargle automatically gets the #7 spot due to having a majority. However, the last three slots had a tie. Choose 1 in each slot:
#8:
Lanturn
Escavalier
#9:
Escavalier
Rotom-C
#10:
Spiritomb
Lanturn
10 Smeargle
3 Escavalier
3 Gothitelle
3 Lanturn
2 Slowking
1 Lilligant
1 Rotom-C
Slot #8 Votes:
6 Lanturn
6 Escavalier
2 Gothitelle
2 Slowking
2 Lilligant
1 Spiritomb
1 Quagsire
1 Smeargle
1 Accelgor
1 Cofagrigus
Slot #9 Votes:
5 Escavalier
5 Rotom-C
2 Cofagrigus
2 Slowking
2 Gothitelle
2 Lanturn
2 Smeargle
1 Sigilyph
1 Hitmonchan
1 Spiritomb
Slot #10 Votes:
5 Spiritomb
5 Lanturn
2 Slowking
2 Lilligant
2 Rotom-C
2 Smeargle
1 Archeops
1 Escavalier
1 Typhlosion
1 Feraligatr
1 Cofagrigus
Smeargle automatically gets the #7 spot due to having a majority. However, the last three slots had a tie. Choose 1 in each slot:
#8:
Lanturn
Escavalier
#9:
Escavalier
Rotom-C
#10:
Spiritomb
Lanturn
Escavalier
Rotom-C
Lanturn
Rotom-C
Lanturn
Ok we've got our top 10 (it's also in the OP):
Tier List:
1. Nidoqueen
2. Kabutops
3. Moltres
4. Sceptile
5. Entei
6. Uxie
7. Smeargle
8. Escavalier
9. Rotom-C
10. Spiritomb
Now's the time to discuss the list, such as why you agree with a spot that a Pokemon got, or why do disagree and what you would change it to. Also you are encouraged to comment on other users' agreements and disagreements so we can change the list if the majority of the people feel a change is necessary. Making good comments or even changes will help you earn awards!
Tier List:
1. Nidoqueen
2. Kabutops
3. Moltres
4. Sceptile
5. Entei
6. Uxie
7. Smeargle
8. Escavalier
9. Rotom-C
10. Spiritomb
Now's the time to discuss the list, such as why you agree with a spot that a Pokemon got, or why do disagree and what you would change it to. Also you are encouraged to comment on other users' agreements and disagreements so we can change the list if the majority of the people feel a change is necessary. Making good comments or even changes will help you earn awards!
Hmmm... I think this list was pretty good... lemme take my crack at it.
1. Absolutely deserving. Nothing should be above the boss of RU, Nidoqueen.
2. I've never used Kabutops, but I think it looks pretty useful. However, I think it is a touch too frail to be ranked in second. Definitely top five material, though.
3. HELL YES. This poke is the only one that can even come close to threatening Nidoqueen for Number 1. Moltres is a monster, definitely deserving. I woulda put it at #2.
4. Hmmm... I honestly disagree with this. I know Sceptile can work as a fast SubSeeder, but as a Grass type I far prefer Rotom-C. I'm not sure where I'd put him, but certainly not #4.
5. Entei is very powerful and can do gobs of damage. There are lots of pokes like this in RU, but none do it quite like Entei. Definitely good choice.
6. No issues here.
7. Kinda frail, but good setup poke. If you pass a Quiver Dance to Nidoqueen, I'm scooping.
8- This is like Entei, but slower and with no priority. I do like this poke, though.
9- WAAAAAY too low. I'd say Top 5 material. Rotom-C is a great scarf revenge killer, and is a phenominal scout. Definitely under-appreciated.
10- Spiritomb is a great priority abuser, and can burn shit like Escavalier. Good choice, Smogon.
Here's my top 5-
1. Nidoqueen (What else???)
2. Moltres
3. Rotom-C
4. Kabutops
5. Typhlosion
Everything below, I don't really know. I think Accelgor, Uxie and Entei would definitely be in there. Dunno about the rest.
Good job, Smogon. You sure represented this tier far better than the usage stats.
1. Absolutely deserving. Nothing should be above the boss of RU, Nidoqueen.
2. I've never used Kabutops, but I think it looks pretty useful. However, I think it is a touch too frail to be ranked in second. Definitely top five material, though.
3. HELL YES. This poke is the only one that can even come close to threatening Nidoqueen for Number 1. Moltres is a monster, definitely deserving. I woulda put it at #2.
4. Hmmm... I honestly disagree with this. I know Sceptile can work as a fast SubSeeder, but as a Grass type I far prefer Rotom-C. I'm not sure where I'd put him, but certainly not #4.
5. Entei is very powerful and can do gobs of damage. There are lots of pokes like this in RU, but none do it quite like Entei. Definitely good choice.
6. No issues here.
7. Kinda frail, but good setup poke. If you pass a Quiver Dance to Nidoqueen, I'm scooping.
8- This is like Entei, but slower and with no priority. I do like this poke, though.
9- WAAAAAY too low. I'd say Top 5 material. Rotom-C is a great scarf revenge killer, and is a phenominal scout. Definitely under-appreciated.
10- Spiritomb is a great priority abuser, and can burn shit like Escavalier. Good choice, Smogon.
Here's my top 5-
1. Nidoqueen (What else???)
2. Moltres
3. Rotom-C
4. Kabutops
5. Typhlosion
Everything below, I don't really know. I think Accelgor, Uxie and Entei would definitely be in there. Dunno about the rest.
Good job, Smogon. You sure represented this tier far better than the usage stats.
Guess I'll take a crack at the current list:
1. Don't think anyone in their right mind will disagree with this choice. Nidoqueen is the current queen of RU (I'd use king if it weren't for obvious reasons)
2. Tops is top 5 material for sure as it's the best spinner in the tier and one of the best choices for a FWG core. However, I'd at least look at putting Moltres here since it really only has one hard counter in Lanturn.
3. Read above for Moltres. When you only have one hard counter in the tier, you know this thing is strong. Hurricane really made it more of a monster and pretty much made Lanturn the premier bulky Water in RU as Slowking can no longer handle Moltres effectively.
4. Sceptile could probably be pushed to #3 (past Kabutops), but #4 is the lowest it should go. One of the best cleaners in the tier with its Sub set and its physical set will destroy most counters to the special sets. Drain Punch being legal with Unburden now makes it a bit harder to wear down. Heck, you can even run SubSeed since Sceptile has ways to hit opposing Grass types.
5. 5th and 6th spots are really difficult to decide and I honestly don't have any issues with these 2 slots one way or another. Entei is the physical equivalent of Moltres, minus the great secondary STAB and heavier SR weakness. However, Entei is a great wallbreaker with CB Flare Blitz and can even pick off weakened threats with ESpeed. Deserving of #5 for sure.
6. Uxie is the ultimate team supporter. Need Rocks? Use Uxie. Need paralysis support? Use Uxie. Need a bulky pivot? Use Uxie. Need a weather setter? Use Uxie. Need a Nidoqueen counter/check? Use Uxie. If you need defensive support, Uxie is your Poke. Heck, it even can use SubCM to sweep. Could be #5 easily, but #6 is still good for the best team player in the tier.
7. Smeargle, the ultimate player for Offensive teams. Sets up hazards, Spores something, then implodes to ensure there is no spinning. You can even pass Quiver Dances off to powerful special sweepers like Moltres or Nidoqueen. #7 is fine.
8. You want a wallbreaker with good bulk and resistances? Use Escavalier. It's one of the premier wallbreakers in the tier and the best pure wallbreaker. It can even put its resistances to good use with a Specially Defensive set to screw over physical walls. It can't touch Steel types, but in a tier with Moltres, Nidoqueen, Entei, and Magmortar, hitting Steel types will rarely be a problem. It could easily be #7 on the list imo.
9. Rotom-C is a curious case. Weird typing, good stats outside of Attack and HP, and a decent movepool. It can go Choiced, Defensive, or EBelt with ease. Great utility mon. Not as great as Uxie in utility, but still good, especially for more offensive teams.
10. Only spot I really don't agree with. Spiritomb is the best Ghost type in the tier thanks to its ability to beat Cryo one-on-one and it can play mind games with Kabutops between Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. However, I would've very much preferred to see Lanturn in this spot. Lanturn can provide great support for offensive and defensive teams alike. Cleric support is great for both styles while Lanturn can use RestTalk on more defensive teams while it can provide paralysis support and a slow Volt Switch for offensive teams. Great special tank and being the only hard counter to Moltres in the tier is great too. Spiritomb isn't far off of the top 10, but I feel as though Lanturn should be #10 (or even as high as #8) for its ability to safely switch into Moltres, check most Water and Electric types, and provide various types of support ranging from cleric support to a status absorber (with RestTalk)
Pretty good top 10 as pretty much all of it can be justified quite easily. Some "snuffs" obviously, but I'll cover those another time. 10 spots just isn't enough to cover all of the really good Pokemon in the tier.
1. Don't think anyone in their right mind will disagree with this choice. Nidoqueen is the current queen of RU (I'd use king if it weren't for obvious reasons)
2. Tops is top 5 material for sure as it's the best spinner in the tier and one of the best choices for a FWG core. However, I'd at least look at putting Moltres here since it really only has one hard counter in Lanturn.
3. Read above for Moltres. When you only have one hard counter in the tier, you know this thing is strong. Hurricane really made it more of a monster and pretty much made Lanturn the premier bulky Water in RU as Slowking can no longer handle Moltres effectively.
4. Sceptile could probably be pushed to #3 (past Kabutops), but #4 is the lowest it should go. One of the best cleaners in the tier with its Sub set and its physical set will destroy most counters to the special sets. Drain Punch being legal with Unburden now makes it a bit harder to wear down. Heck, you can even run SubSeed since Sceptile has ways to hit opposing Grass types.
5. 5th and 6th spots are really difficult to decide and I honestly don't have any issues with these 2 slots one way or another. Entei is the physical equivalent of Moltres, minus the great secondary STAB and heavier SR weakness. However, Entei is a great wallbreaker with CB Flare Blitz and can even pick off weakened threats with ESpeed. Deserving of #5 for sure.
6. Uxie is the ultimate team supporter. Need Rocks? Use Uxie. Need paralysis support? Use Uxie. Need a bulky pivot? Use Uxie. Need a weather setter? Use Uxie. Need a Nidoqueen counter/check? Use Uxie. If you need defensive support, Uxie is your Poke. Heck, it even can use SubCM to sweep. Could be #5 easily, but #6 is still good for the best team player in the tier.
7. Smeargle, the ultimate player for Offensive teams. Sets up hazards, Spores something, then implodes to ensure there is no spinning. You can even pass Quiver Dances off to powerful special sweepers like Moltres or Nidoqueen. #7 is fine.
8. You want a wallbreaker with good bulk and resistances? Use Escavalier. It's one of the premier wallbreakers in the tier and the best pure wallbreaker. It can even put its resistances to good use with a Specially Defensive set to screw over physical walls. It can't touch Steel types, but in a tier with Moltres, Nidoqueen, Entei, and Magmortar, hitting Steel types will rarely be a problem. It could easily be #7 on the list imo.
9. Rotom-C is a curious case. Weird typing, good stats outside of Attack and HP, and a decent movepool. It can go Choiced, Defensive, or EBelt with ease. Great utility mon. Not as great as Uxie in utility, but still good, especially for more offensive teams.
10. Only spot I really don't agree with. Spiritomb is the best Ghost type in the tier thanks to its ability to beat Cryo one-on-one and it can play mind games with Kabutops between Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch. However, I would've very much preferred to see Lanturn in this spot. Lanturn can provide great support for offensive and defensive teams alike. Cleric support is great for both styles while Lanturn can use RestTalk on more defensive teams while it can provide paralysis support and a slow Volt Switch for offensive teams. Great special tank and being the only hard counter to Moltres in the tier is great too. Spiritomb isn't far off of the top 10, but I feel as though Lanturn should be #10 (or even as high as #8) for its ability to safely switch into Moltres, check most Water and Electric types, and provide various types of support ranging from cleric support to a status absorber (with RestTalk)
Pretty good top 10 as pretty much all of it can be justified quite easily. Some "snuffs" obviously, but I'll cover those another time. 10 spots just isn't enough to cover all of the really good Pokemon in the tier.
I forgot to vote for this on the last few days, but anyway, my crack at it:
1. No brainer. If you need explanation for this...
2. The greatest spinner in the metagame that can also sweep on a whim. Aqua Jet lets it revenge the multitude of Fire-types in the tier as well. Name a Ghost that can take on it at 90% health or lower and you get a cookie.
3. This would be #2...if it wasn't weak to the most common priority in the tier (Aqua Jet). Stealth Rock is also pressuring, but it can be spun away easy.
4. Let me make one thing clear. Sceptile is not outclassed by Rotom-C, mainly due the fact it can carry LO and still be fast to outpace the metagame barring Accelgor and Aerodactyl. It also can take on Sap Sipper mons, which the two other common Grass-types, Lilligant and Rotom-, can't do. Count it the fact it's counters are reduced in viability in the current metagame and you have in of the best offensive pokemon in RU.
5. Entei has been great since day one, and Flare Blitz continues to leave scorching marks on anything it hits. Extremespeed has amazing revenge killing utility, taking out Lilligant, Sceptile and co before they can move. Kabutops usage hurts it as well, but other then that, it's flaws are small.
6. A make shift check to pretty much anything (barring Dark- and Ghost-types), Uxie provides TR, Weather etc. support and can still maintain momentum with U-turn. Protip: Use TrickScarf.
7. Haven't really had experience with Smeargle, but it pretty much guarantees SR and a layer with Spikes from what I've seen. The last move is always a toss up from it's insane movepool, making it quite unpredictable.
I'll do the rest when I have some more time.
1. No brainer. If you need explanation for this...
2. The greatest spinner in the metagame that can also sweep on a whim. Aqua Jet lets it revenge the multitude of Fire-types in the tier as well. Name a Ghost that can take on it at 90% health or lower and you get a cookie.
3. This would be #2...if it wasn't weak to the most common priority in the tier (Aqua Jet). Stealth Rock is also pressuring, but it can be spun away easy.
4. Let me make one thing clear. Sceptile is not outclassed by Rotom-C, mainly due the fact it can carry LO and still be fast to outpace the metagame barring Accelgor and Aerodactyl. It also can take on Sap Sipper mons, which the two other common Grass-types, Lilligant and Rotom-, can't do. Count it the fact it's counters are reduced in viability in the current metagame and you have in of the best offensive pokemon in RU.
5. Entei has been great since day one, and Flare Blitz continues to leave scorching marks on anything it hits. Extremespeed has amazing revenge killing utility, taking out Lilligant, Sceptile and co before they can move. Kabutops usage hurts it as well, but other then that, it's flaws are small.
6. A make shift check to pretty much anything (barring Dark- and Ghost-types), Uxie provides TR, Weather etc. support and can still maintain momentum with U-turn. Protip: Use TrickScarf.
7. Haven't really had experience with Smeargle, but it pretty much guarantees SR and a layer with Spikes from what I've seen. The last move is always a toss up from it's insane movepool, making it quite unpredictable.
I'll do the rest when I have some more time.
I share EonX's pro sentiments. Kabutops is a bit frail to be numero 2, although it does a damn good job at sweeping teams. Moltres has good bulk that a team can rely on, and can switch in on more things than Kabutops; I wouldn't mind Moltres swapping places with Kabutops. Sceptile's sheer Speed and versatility (can pull off amazing Special or Mixed sets) may also be deserving a higher spot than Kabutops, despite its frailty.
Smeargle is not a prevalent or common enough threat to be so high in the list, imo. Its extreme frailty, mediocre Speed, and reliance on Spore also makes it rather easy to exploit its presence with mons like SubRoost Moltres, Sub Sceptile, Vital Spirit Magmortar / Electivire, TrickScarfing, U-turn / Volt Switch into a Sleep Talker like CB Entei / CB Escavalier, Lum Uxie, Taunt Aerodactyl, etc.
Escavalier & Rotom-C are MUCH more pervasive in the current RU metagame, and they provide much more consistent results than Smeargle, imo, thanks to their general bulk and power. They deserve a higher rank than Smeargle.
I also agree with EonX that Spiritomb doesn't deserve to be in #10. A pokemon who relies on Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and weak Shadow Sneak as its means of offense have many inherent flaws. Spiritomb has a specialized niche in being one of the best Normal, Psychic, Ghost, and Fighting counters all rolled up in one, as well as easily eliminating Cryogonal. However, Spiritomb is easily worn down and is very vulnerable to becoming set-up bait. Like Smeargle, it has a specialized niche, but its overall performance leaves something to be desired. In this sense, I prefer Cofagrigus > Spiritomb for its ability to pull of NP OTR sweeps rather easily, being less of a deadweight or a liability.
Lanturn provides more reliable and practical support than Spiritomb, sponging the prevalent Electric, Water, and Fire-type moves thrown around in RU, as well as providing some nice Volt Switch, paralysis, and clerical support. Lanturn is far more useful and economical than Spiritomb.
Smeargle is not a prevalent or common enough threat to be so high in the list, imo. Its extreme frailty, mediocre Speed, and reliance on Spore also makes it rather easy to exploit its presence with mons like SubRoost Moltres, Sub Sceptile, Vital Spirit Magmortar / Electivire, TrickScarfing, U-turn / Volt Switch into a Sleep Talker like CB Entei / CB Escavalier, Lum Uxie, Taunt Aerodactyl, etc.
Escavalier & Rotom-C are MUCH more pervasive in the current RU metagame, and they provide much more consistent results than Smeargle, imo, thanks to their general bulk and power. They deserve a higher rank than Smeargle.
I also agree with EonX that Spiritomb doesn't deserve to be in #10. A pokemon who relies on Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and weak Shadow Sneak as its means of offense have many inherent flaws. Spiritomb has a specialized niche in being one of the best Normal, Psychic, Ghost, and Fighting counters all rolled up in one, as well as easily eliminating Cryogonal. However, Spiritomb is easily worn down and is very vulnerable to becoming set-up bait. Like Smeargle, it has a specialized niche, but its overall performance leaves something to be desired. In this sense, I prefer Cofagrigus > Spiritomb for its ability to pull of NP OTR sweeps rather easily, being less of a deadweight or a liability.
Lanturn provides more reliable and practical support than Spiritomb, sponging the prevalent Electric, Water, and Fire-type moves thrown around in RU, as well as providing some nice Volt Switch, paralysis, and clerical support. Lanturn is far more useful and economical than Spiritomb.