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Pokémon Serperior
- Thread starter Youmu the Gardener
- Start date
- Status
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Considering it has to rely on Focus Miss to deal with Heatran and is OHKOed 80% of the time by Banded Talonflame, you'd still need a way to deal with those two very common threats.
A Physical bait set with EQ to take out heatran could definitely work, but the special set probably wouldn't do too well.
EDIT: What he^ said basically
I wouldn't call anything a counter to serperior just yet. Serperior has a large pool of checks but none of them are for sure counters. Heatran doesn't want to switch in on leaf storm popping his balloon/allowing setup then get bonked by HP ground.
I honestly can't think of a counter that can switch in 100% of the time and stay in without fear.. even talonflame hates HP rock and beedrill can't take glare.
I guess we got goodra or azumaril with sap sipper but the first one is meh in OU and the second got better things to do.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
HP Fire is generally preferred to get past Scizor and Ferrothorn.
I agree with this, HP Fire is the most optimum. imo the best partner for Serperior is Dugtrio with a voltturn core that baits in Heatran. For example I use Mega Pidgeot with U-turn to bait the tran
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BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
I'd also argue that Gyarados (Mega or not) is a great teammate, since it stops both Heatran and Talonflame along with good Offensive synergy with Serperior. You can see this core I made in this thread.
+1 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 310-366 (93.6 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 189-223 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 285-336 (86.1 - 101.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I fail to see how Gyarados is a Talonflame answer when it can't stop SD or Band and can even get revenge killed by it.
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BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Intimidate.
Those calcs included Intimidate though.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
Gyarados KOs Talonflame, while Talonflame cannot OHKO without a critical hit after Intimidate.
Gyarados can't switch into talonflame either and is 2HKO'd by banded varients.
Did you not read the calcs? +1 always OHKOs after Rocks X_X
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
If it sets up Swords Dance, yes. But for all other sets, Gyarados is a great check.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 189-223 (57 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Eh, Gyarados doesn't exactly enjoy Banded BB. Not exactly what I'd call a great check, since it can't even switch in unless it's locked into Flare Blitz
When did this turn into a "Talonflame Checks" thread? Oh right we're testing good partners for Serperior.
It should be noted that although a Gyarados with its normal set cannot check Talonflame on the switch that often, a dedicated bulky Gyarados can survive the 2HKO range after Intimidate, even if Stealth Rock is up (this, and the Talonflame used in the tests had Adamant, although Adamant Talonflame is used over Jolly, I think?).
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 278-330 (93.6 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(He's guaranteed to fall thanks to Brave Bird's recoil)
Naturally, most Gyarados won't be running 248 HP / 252 DEF, but this just to show that if you really wanted to counter Talonflame with Gyarados in order to protect our lovely Serperior, you could :).
It should be noted that although a Gyarados with its normal set cannot check Talonflame on the switch that often, a dedicated bulky Gyarados can survive the 2HKO range after Intimidate, even if Stealth Rock is up (this, and the Talonflame used in the tests had Adamant, although Adamant Talonflame is used over Jolly, I think?).
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gyarados: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
8 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 278-330 (93.6 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
(He's guaranteed to fall thanks to Brave Bird's recoil)
Naturally, most Gyarados won't be running 248 HP / 252 DEF, but this just to show that if you really wanted to counter Talonflame with Gyarados in order to protect our lovely Serperior, you could :).
inb4 bulk up/will-o-wisp+roost stall. I think that's also a thing. Hard check at best.
Magnezone+HPgroundSerp+Heatran IMHO seems like the best core. I don't see any glaring weaknesses and the coverage is all there. HP fire is easy to forego.. you can easily counter a ferrothorn or scizor, but getting free switches to eliminate heatran for serp is much trickier.
I like this core.
IF only Serperior was faster than Talonflame (and for the sake of this, if only Talonflame didn't have Gale Wings... but then he wouldn't be seen this much eh), Hidden Power Rock (just like someone referred in the first page) would be rather interesting for the unexpected counter-attack.
How does a Mega Diancie + Serp core sound? Serperior does what it does, meanwhile Mega Diancie stops Talonflame (except for banded Steel Wing versions, but you can't account for everything...), depending on the set can take advantage of Heatran, Serperior covers its Ground and Water weaknesses, and both can lure out particular steel types. I'm mostly thinking about the special or mixed sets, since Psychic coverage also aids in hurting MVenusaur, Amoongus, and Dragalge. Plus your own Heatran or Magnezone to help out with the other Steel types. Serp can handle Azumarill, too. Serperior and Diancie both share similarities in that their choice of coverage move affects what counters them, but both can choose to take out whatever the other one is leaving out, which is kind of neat.
Still kinda open to a few things, but I'm looking into it. I so badly want to use Serperior in a neat core but anything I add just emphasises its weaknesses :/ I don't know where I got the idea that Conkeldurr would be a good teammate for it... that was a bad idea.
Still kinda open to a few things, but I'm looking into it. I so badly want to use Serperior in a neat core but anything I add just emphasises its weaknesses :/ I don't know where I got the idea that Conkeldurr would be a good teammate for it... that was a bad idea.
In case there's a Banded Talonflame locked into Steel Wings, Serperior himself can glare him to put down some pressure, as Steel Wings is not a strong move.
If Diancie-Mega outspeeds Talonflame, he's pretty much dead ^.^
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Who needs steel wing?
The typing syngery is sorta there but both pokemon are too frail to switch into either of their weaknesses.
Who needs steel wing?
The typing syngery is sorta there but both pokemon are too frail to switch into either of their weaknesses.
This is what bothers me, Talonflame only has 81 base attack and still can be such a monster.
Well it can run +Nature and has 120 BP STABs so yeah, combine that with a CB and it'll hurt.
I think my exact reaction on considering this was somewhere along the lines of "arglearglefuuuuck". Now it's aged into a drier, more mature "ah fuck it". I still hold that they WOULD cover things together, in the sense that a Pokemon can sometimes check something once, but not twice... damn. Back to the drawing board! That Talonflame calc is depressing. MDiancie is just... the opposite of what minmaxing should be. (MBeedrill's distribution on Diancie's BST... *drools*)
In that case, I'm looking for a Pokemon that reliably checks or counters some of the following, since they're all a pain for Serperior. :( Magnezone helps with steel types usually, occasionally talonflame, clefable, and... eh :| Psychic coverage would take out a few of these as well, but most of the decent psychic users are afraid of a brave bird to the face, and of course steel types...
-Talonflame especially (and Char Y to a lesser extent)
-Heatran (I'm personally running HP Ground, but that's not enough plus Sp.Def Heatran doesn't care anyway - I think this is why I thought of AV Guts Conkeldurr, but... No. Bad idea.)
-MAltaria
-Unaware Clefable
-the usual Steel fare; Ferro, Scizor, Skarm, MMetagross now too I suppose, but it doesn't appreciate boosted coverage moves of either type
-bulky grass/poison types; MVenusaur, Amoongus, Dragalge, Celebi
-I guess things to take the hits that the >113 base speed guys are going to be throwing out for revenge kills; mostly megas, but also Starmie's LO Ice Beams. Not that a whole lot can switch into MLopunny! But still. Also, scarfers (Jirachi) + SE priority (Mamo, Weavile, MPinsir).
-Heatran (I'm personally running HP Ground, but that's not enough plus Sp.Def Heatran doesn't care anyway - I think this is why I thought of AV Guts Conkeldurr, but... No. Bad idea.)
-MAltaria
-Unaware Clefable
-the usual Steel fare; Ferro, Scizor, Skarm, MMetagross now too I suppose, but it doesn't appreciate boosted coverage moves of either type
-bulky grass/poison types; MVenusaur, Amoongus, Dragalge, Celebi
-I guess things to take the hits that the >113 base speed guys are going to be throwing out for revenge kills; mostly megas, but also Starmie's LO Ice Beams. Not that a whole lot can switch into MLopunny! But still. Also, scarfers (Jirachi) + SE priority (Mamo, Weavile, MPinsir).
>:| I feel like there's very little that I can add to a Serperior-friendly team that hasn't already been mentioned and doesn't compound another of Serperior's flaws. Scizor and Magnezone WOULD be cool if they weren't afraid of Talonflame and Heatran - even fast Superpower Sciz can't get past that. Sp.Def Talonflame would make a nice partner if it didn't also have a cold stop in Heatran. And I'd really not rely on a double trapping core (which this is rapidly becoming) since at that point there are better things you could be using with a double trap than Serperior. I can always just accept the weaknesses and just overcompensate for them - I'm probably looking at this the wrong way around, I should build a team and if it has a use for Serperior, in it goes. But :(
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