Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[hecatomb]

Out of curiousity, what are people's thoughts on Nihilego vs Terrak (scarf sets)? Terrak is better for hitting things like Bronzong, which is rising in popularity, and Fini/Celesteela with sedge, but then again Nihilego avoids Lando's intimidate, has beast boost, etc.. Haven't used either so I was wondering about the difference in rank

Edit: To clarify, I meant that in a steel plagued meta, it's dangerous to get locked into sludge wave, even if it does hit Fini harder than sedge from Terrak

Well both Nihilego vs Terrak dont counter Tapu Lele, which kill both of them with psychic attacks, though Nihilego might better at taking out some of the other tapus. Nihilego is more useful with its poison attacks, then again both are weak to other threats of greninja, if pheromosa does high jump kick, landorus t, and celesteela. Both Nihilego and Terrak are fine at were they are.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Well both Nihilego vs Terrak dont counter Tapu Lele, which kill both of them with psychic attacks, though Nihilego might better at taking out some of the other tapus. Nihilego is more useful with its poison attacks, then again both are weak to other threats of greninja, if pheromosa does high jump kick, landorus t, and celesteela. Both Nihilego and Terrak are fine at were they are.

Choice Scarf Nihilego outruns every Pokemon you mentioned and basically always runs Thunderbolt + HP Ice, so none of your "checks" (bar Celesteela, sort of) are actually reliable answers to it. The reason it shouldn't rise is the sheer number of fat Steels and Grounds in the metagame, not slower offensive Pokemon that get OHKOed.

 

[ALLAN ROCK]

Choice Scarf Nihilego outruns every Pokemon you mentioned and basically always runs Thunderbolt + HP Ice, so none of your "checks" (bar Celesteela, sort of) are actually reliable answers to it. The reason it shouldn't rise is the sheer number of fat Steels and Grounds in the metagame, not slower offensive Pokemon that get OHKOed.

relevant calculations: nihilego can ohko landorus-t with hp ice, but only if it has any less than 196 hp evs

252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 312-368 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[hecatomb]

Choice Scarf Nihilego outruns every Pokemon you mentioned and basically always runs Thunderbolt + HP Ice, so none of your "checks" (bar Celesteela, sort of) are actually reliable answers to it. The reason it shouldn't rise is the sheer number of fat Steels and Grounds in the metagame, not slower offensive Pokemon that get OHKOed.

That doesnt really counter landorus t if it spams knock off when you bring in Nihilego. Then again landorus t just gives both Nihilego and Terrak problems, since it can lower Terrak's attack, and earthquake both of them, or just spam knock off. Then you have a slow Nihilego the rest of the game that has to deal with everything else that will kill it. You can start with Nihilego scarf, and they start with landorus t, and you HP ice, and if it has max evs it will still live, and then counter with greninja or something else.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

That doesnt really counter landorus t if it spams knock off when you bring in Nihilego. Then again landorus t just gives both Nihilego and Terrak problems, since it can lower Terrak's attack, and earthquake both of them, or just spam knock off. Then you have a slow Nihilego the rest of the game that has to deal with everything else that will kill it. You can start with Nihilego scarf, and they start with landorus t, and you HP ice, and if it has max evs it will still live, and then counter with greninja or something else.

Did I ever say Nihilego "counters" Landorus-T? You were the one listing "counters" to Nihilego. Why are you even bringing in Nihilego on a Landorus-T? Why are you leading with a Choice Scarf wincon? When would a defensive Landorus-T even be at full health by the time Nihilego is ready to sweep? Since when was Knock Off so common on defensive Landorus-T?

Just...what?

 

[pancake]

can we all please be intelligent and learn what the definition of counter is

A counter is defined as a Pokemon that can switch into another Pokemon and win EVERY TIME, barring hax. Nihilego is clearly not a counter to Landorus-t because Landorus-T can easily OHKO it with Earthquake. As a result, HP Ice Nihilego is a soft CHECK to Landorus-T, because it wins only if:

- given a free switch to Landorus-T
- switching in as Landorus-T goes for Stealth Rock (bad play)

First of all, this discussion that you two are having is generally unrelated to the viability rankings and is a tangent of the Terrakion vs. Nihilego discussion. Most of the time I try and be generally nice but this "check/counter" talk is directed at hecatomb. Man, you overuse the word counter in your arguments and a lot of the time your arguments are unrelated to what is going on in the viability rankings. Please, read all of the posts and try to only post relevant things. This last part is not only directed at you, but at everyone who has made this thread a little bit difficult for me to read.

Now, my opinions:

Celesteela > S: Disagree: In a meta with a lot of extremely centralizing Pokemon, I consider S-rank to be those centralizing Pokemon. Greninja, Landorus-T, and Mega Metagross are all extremely centralizing. While Celesteela has a multitude of defensive and offensive achievements, it certainly has its fair share of cons. Celesteela lacks power when running Autotomize Flyinium Z, and is difficult to snowball with when running Life Orb. Defensive Celesteela is taken advantage of by multiple centralizing metagame threats, mainly Rockium Lando and Zygarde, which have become more popular, and I find myself running Tpunch Metagross more and more. A very good mon, but not one that is on the level of Landorus-T and Megagross (who threaten legitimately every team that doesn't have Bronzong) or Greninja (who's versatility and threat of being Ash-Gren make it ridiculously difficult to play around).

I agree with every other nomination that Colonel M made. Notably:

Thundurus-T > B-: Strongly agree: Some people say this is bad but by bad do you mean on par with a Pokemon that is legitimately only worth using on Sticky Web teams (Xurkitree) or one that simply is never worth using (Mega Garchomp)? Any mon with BoltBeam coverage is good right now to pick apart LandoFini cores, and this one is particularly good because DD Electrium Z sets up on typically Electric checks (AV Growth etc.). Definitely not a mon worth using all the time, but it is much better than every other mon in C and C+.

Terrakion should stay B+, its scarf set pressures common fighting checks a lot and although it faces a lot of competition from nihilego I find its STAB combination much more threatening in a metagame where MGross is on a ton of teams. Once again because its scarf set pressures common fighting checks a ton (Lando, Fini, Amoonguss) it is a really good Fighting-spam mon and with a partner like Keldeo it is extremely effective. I think you were way too hard on it. Finally Gyarados should rise but I have nothing else to add that hasn't already been said.

oh also the text in b- is bigger than the rest of the text and it bothers me like fuck lmao

My Own Noms:

Bronzong > B: This mon is really good glue right now and it is much better than any of the shit in B-, it sucks that it is a passive rocker but just the fact that it checks so many threats and sets rocks effectively for balance makes it b- alone imo. The fact that those mons happen to include the best mon in the metagame, the second best and most splashable mon in the metagame (including its broken sets), and plenty more A-rank mons makes it B.

MSharpedo > B+. This mon is an insane cleaner on offense and its Crunch is such a nightmare for other offense to beat. Although it is frail, it resists a lot of common priority moves (Water Shuriken, BP) and outspeeds most of the unboosted AND boosted metagame at +1. The nature of offense right now makes it really weak to sharpedo and I think this should be reflected more accurately in the viability rankings.

 

[hecatomb]

Did I ever say Nihilego "counters" Landorus-T? You were the one listing "counters" to Nihilego. Why are you even bringing in Nihilego on a Landorus-T? Why are you leading with a Choice Scarf wincon? When would a defensive Landorus-T even be at full health by the time Nihilego is ready to sweep? Since when was Knock Off so common on defensive Landorus-T?

Just...what?

I was giving examples of why nihilego is fine at the rank it is right now, you are the one who quoted me about Nihilego vs Landorus-T. Did you even read my post? It seems like you didnt. This is the last time im going to post this, since people refuse to read. Nihilego is fine at were its at. Who cares if some Landorus-T dont run knock off, cause a lot of them do run it. Does it matter if nihilego has hp ice with scarf vs max ev Landorus-T? No it doesnt. Could Nihilego raise in ranks? maybe if there werent so many counters to it.

 

[TheMohZone]

I was giving examples of why nihilego is fine at the rank it is right now, you are the one who quoted me about Nihilego vs Landorus-T. Did you even read my post? It seems like you didnt. This is the last time im going to post this, since people refuse to read. Nihilego is fine at were its at. Who cares if some Landorus-T dont run knock off, cause a lot of them do run it. Does it matter if nihilego has hp ice with scarf vs max ev Landorus-T? No it doesnt. Could Nihilego raise in ranks? maybe if there werent so many counters to it.

really? Thats what you get out of it?


252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Landorus-Therian: 304-360 (79.5 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cause this calc tells me that Landorous can't come in on Nihilego with its standard defensive set, and its the one wanting to come in on Nihilego, not the other way around. It can't revenge either because then Nihilego is at +1. It also can't come in after a few Stealth Rock Switchins (2 iirc?)

That is NOT a counter. Counters can come in no matter what you click, live the hit and keep doing it over the course of the match, with no worries unless wittled down by other means. If any Landorous Variation, literally any:


252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 216-256 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Don't run this)

Comes in on Nihilego, it dies if its carrying HP Ice because its getting outsped. It can't revenge either. Scarf sets and such die instantly and only the extremly unviable Special Defensive theorymon set (seriously, don't ever think of running this. its trash) can hope to live a HP Ice


+1 252 SpA Nihilego Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Landorus-Therian: 320-380 (83.7 - 99.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Like...thats not a counter mon at all. Check at best. Pls learn the difference.

Of course, Nihilego doesn't always carry HP Ice, but its also NEVER coming in on Landorous. Thats not what it does. Nihilego is a stop to a fuck ton of dangerous set up sweepers in this meta, like Volcarona, or Salamence. Rock Weak means Nihilego weak. its never coming in on anything, let alone a Landorous (Who just OHKOs with Earthquake why the hell are you talking about Knock Off?)

Saying Nihilego can't do something that isn't what its supposed to do and shouldn't rise because of it is...a non existent argument. Landorous is not a Counter, and just because Nihilego has a counter doesn't mean its not done its job. It stops sweeps and cleans up late game itself if it can. its very good at those jobs. Landorous omnipresence is not an argument against this.

The real argument against it rising is that its not on the level of whats above it, which is an Argument i can get behind. Its on the level of Zard Ys and the like, and the stuff it beats for that matter, rather than Tapus, Celesteelas and Greninjas. Its fine where it is because its with stuff just as good as it is and the stuff above it is better.

 

[pika pal]

The one big issue I do have with suggesting a rise for Nihilego does stem from its STAB combination in a metagame where a number of prominent mons bear a defensive Steel typing. The combination of Beast Boost and a very good Scarf Speed (outpacing the various Base 100 DD users at +1 as well as Scarfchomp) along with a plenty competent Special attack stat is a boon for Nihilego, as it really punishes opponents who rely on sacs to keep Momentum against revenge kills while having a commendable list of mons it can check with its typical offensive moveset. On the other hand, Nihilego's restricted to lategame snowballing/win condition since, bluntly put, it's incredibly frail on the Physical side and while it has HP or certain options for secondary types (like Power Gem on Flying types), it lacks an option it can spam as long as Steel types are not in critical condition. With Mega Metagross, Celesteela, Skarmory, and Heatran all riding fairly in the metagame, not to mention discussions of Bronzong moving up, it has a number of important obstacles it needs dealt with before cleaning. Magnezone can alleviate this to a degree, but it gives the team a massive ground weakness in a metagame where Lando-T is the most used if not most splashable mon available.

It's a mon I see serving the team very well as a late addition, but it doesn't strike me as a strong enough option to build a team around as is the case with most of A+ and a decent number of A mons.

As for Celesteela, I'm on the fence with it going up to S-Rank. I won't deny the value of a mon with that bulk and typing considering it makes it a strong answer to some dangerous mons like Metagross Z-Fly Landorus, but it also doesn't strike me as a defensive threat you have to prepare for in particular. Celesteela is a mon that's very good at its job in many cases, but ultimately doesn't bring such a unique set of traits as to jump higher on that ground. It's closer to being a benchmark for me in a sense, in that a good Wallbreaker should justifiably aim to "break defensive Celesteela"; however, that usually just amounts to weighing certain coverage options more heavily or maybe tweaking some EVs, rather than outright reconsidering the choice of Wallbreaker or the overall set. It's hard to articulate, but I guess it's a case where Celesteela is good at things people already prepare for, rather than something like ORAS Clefable or Mega Sableye where it brings a more unorthodox set of tools that in turn require more specific preparation to reliably deal with it. Similar sentiment for the Autotomize set, as though I'm less familiar with it, it still ultimately strikes me as a lategame set up cleaner that many teams probably already watch for in this metagame.

 

[Scarf Nihilego]

Yeah, I agree with Nihilego staying at the rank it's at (I never suggested a rise). When I look at A rank and above, I see a lot of self-sufficient Pokemon that absolutely need to be planned for in teambuilding by the opponent. On the other hand, Nihilego requires support to get rid of Steels, Grounds, and special walls, which are on nearly every team anyway: your opponent is not pressured to check it as much as you are forced to cater to its needs. It's an excellent specialist: it survives almost every neutral Special attack with ease, it has valuable STABs and coverage, and it cleans. But generally it's not something that you specifically dedicate checks to, and it's not good enough to be the centerpiece of most teams (unless you're me, but I have issues). The way I see it, Nihilego is something that should be niche, but it happens to be so good at its niche that it's in A-.

 

[Gary]

Ranking Update

Rises

A+ ---> S

A- ---> A

B+ ---> A-

C+ ---> B-

C+ ---> B-

Drops

A ---> A-

A- ---> B+

A- ---> B+

C+ ---> C-

C ---> C-

C+ ---> Unranked

C ---> Unranked

C- ---> Unranked

C- ---> Unranked

• Pheromosa is quickly rising up to be one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier again, despite its rocky history. Specs and Quiver Dance sets hit very hard and can be a huge pain to deal with both offensively and defensively. It's extremely versatile, being able to run physical and special variants of Scarf as well as AoA, the best offensive hazard remover in the tier, and with Z moves it has a lot easier time muscling through Pokemon such as Celesteela and Tapu Fini late game. While it suffers from have zero defensive synergy and requiring free switch-ins/momentum to get it in, it's an absolute menace mid to late game and it fits very well on offense as a way to punish other Pokemon that are meant to threaten offense themselves.
• Tangrowth is one of the best glue Pokemon in the tier, and it rose for the same reasons it rose a few updates before, but it's continuing to prove just how splashable and effective it is in the current metagame at checking some of the biggest threats in the tier.
• Toxapex is a stall staple, as well as fitting on most balance builds. It's passive as fuck, but its ability to blanket check a large portion of the tier, set up T-Spikes, and stop sweepers from setting up on it makes it one of the hardest Pokemon to kill in the tier.
• Mimikyu is way better than most of the Pokemon in C+ that fits well on offensive builds as a way to check Pheromosa and other dangerous Pokemon found on offense thanks to its Disguise ability, giving it many opportunities to set up and potentially sweep or net at least 1 kill. Nidoking checks Tapu Koko as well as destroying balance, and it is much better than the Pokemon in C+ as well.
• Zard-X is finding a lot of issues to sweep in the current metagame because of the omnipresent Tapu Fini keeping it in check throughout the match, 101+ Scarfers on every team, Defensive Lando-T, and stuff like Pheromosa/Ash Greninja pressuring it from setting up. Saying it's a whole rank better than Volcarona is mostly incorrect.
• Nihilego is a good Scarfer but it faces a lot of competition from other Scarfers in the tier, mainly Garchomp, Keldeo, and even Terrakion. Terrakion is slowly becoming the more preferred Rock-type Scarfer because it doesn't struggle as much with its STABs being walled to hell early game. Both are arguably equally as useful.
• Mence is not that much better than Gyarados, and the rankings should reflect this. While Mence has the extra Speed, the prevalent Scarfers put a damper on its sweeping abilities anyway, but unlike Gyarados it has more issues setting up and is walled by more Pokemon in general early game, and because of this you basically have to sacrifice a teamslot for Magnezone at times.
• All of the other Pokemon were either deemed too niche to be ranked or were discussed here. If you have a question about something specific feel free to message me because I don't feel like talking about all of them individually.

Discussion Points:

A- ---> A

A ---> A-

B+ ---> B

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

I honestly can't argue for either Kyurem's case, due to a lack of me seeing it in action as well as never using it, or Gengar, as while I use it a bit I, again, haven't seen one on the ladder in a long time, Tapu Bulu being pushed down to A- hurts a bit inside of me, but I can't really argue against it.

Most of the matches that I play Bulu doesn't do as much as you'd want it to do. I've tried SubSeeds, which usually dies by most standard coverage options like Ice Beam on things such as Latios or Z-Strike Lando coming out of nowhere, SubSD and SD 3 Attacks which suffer from the problem of a speed tier that makes you beg GF to even to swap its Special Attack and Speed stats (10 boost, to 85), and Banded, which while it hits hard as hell the second you click Wood Hammer the opposing check to Bulu, usually of which carries U-Turn by nature of the move being given to a fair set of mons, can come in and either OHKO Bulu or U-turn out on the switch. SD Fightinium-Z is by far the only set I've used to any success (although Banded is still my favorite), which usually can dent Stall a new one.

Also with seeing Volcarona becoming more popular, Metagross-Mega and many other steels' omnipresent threat of OHKOing, and (heck) with the fact that I haven't seen it much, I wouldn't mind a drop.


But I'm a bad player who uses gimmicks like Z-Sunny Day Victini, so what do I know?

 

[Ema Skye]

It's fine if Bulu goes down. The meta trends aren't doing it any favors, with the rise of Tangrowth, Volcarona, Pheromosa and Celesteela, who Bulu can't deal with. I would also call it a liability right now with all of the Skystrike mons.

Gengar could warrant a rise. Ghost is, by far, the best offensive type right now, as so few viable Pokemon resist it (basically just Tyranitar, Bisharp and Weavile) and Specs or Scarf Gengar is generally capable of demolishing teams once those few resists or anything that outspeeds it is gone. It's also a decent Pheromosa check due to a HJK immunity and a 4x Bug resistance.

No opinion on Kyurem-B yet.

 

[Vinsader]

Zard-X is finding a lot of issues to sweep in the current metagame because of the omnipresent Tapu Fini keeping it in check throughout the match, 101+ Scarfers on every team, Defensive Lando-T, and stuff like Pheromosa/Ash Greninja pressuring it from setting up. Saying it's a whole rank better than Volcarona is mostly incorrect.

I must say that i fucking love the sheer irony. Literally justice for the Kalos League

anyway, I think Kyurem B should stay B+. it's still a viable wallbreaker that remove enogh stuff and with more than good coverage. honestly, i prefer it's typing over Hoopa in defensive way. it's also have some bulk on the physical side. being able to run Scarf/Band/mixed/Z-move user set allow it to have enough versatility for B+.

Gengar is still annoying as fuck, and with Marowak as pretty much the sole STAB ghost user in OU, it's having more than enough reason to be used. sure, it lost a very, very important immunity, but it doesn't change that it's gaining at the very least the Terrains help at the very least, and it's Ghost/Poison STAB and coverage is so fucking good in this fairy and Psychic infested metagame. it's a very good scarf user too. A rank is well deserved.

Bulu is still a very good pokemon, but i don't think it's should stay A with Metagross everywhere. Choice banded hit like a truck, and it's also have more sets to be utilized. Sub-Seed with lefties can sometime be a win-condtion by Itself, and sword dancer is a nightmare for slower, bulky teams. even with all that, it's still dropped dead by many, many threats and can be a setup bait without a coverage move. so, drop it to A-

 

[hecatomb]

Tapu Bulu going down is no surprize, the other tapus are just plain better to use, it doesnt help also Bulu is X4 weak to poison, which pheromosa can poison jab it, greninja can use gunk shot. Its also the slowest tapu, which means its going to get hit by anything that has steel, poison, fire or ice. Its also not as versatile as the other tapus, were koko can use u-turn if it cant fight, tapu lele has a lot more advantages being both psychic and fairy, which also has a lot better move pool. When it comes to tapu bulu, when do you really need grass moves? You are not going to do much to steel types, you arent going to do much to protean greninja, which can gunk shot you, and you arent going to do much to landorus t with grass. Which if landorus t is on low hp you can kill it with even koko with HP ice, or tapu fini.

I really dont see any advantage of using Bulu over any of the other tapus

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Tapu Bulu going down is no surprize, the other tapus are just plain better to use, it doesnt help also Bulu is X4 weak to poison, which pheromosa can poison jab it, greninja can use gunk shot. Its also the slowest tapu, which means its going to get hit by anything that has steel, poison, fire or ice. Its also not as versatile as the other tapus, were koko can use u-turn if it cant fight, tapu lele has a lot more advantages being both psychic and fairy, which also has a lot better move pool. When it comes to tapu bulu, when do you really need grass moves? You are not going to do much to steel types, you arent going to do much to protean greninja, which can gunk shot you, and you arent going to do much to landorus t with grass. Which if landorus t is on low hp you can kill it with even koko with HP ice, or tapu fini.

I really dont see any advantage of using Bulu over any of the other tapus

Tapu Bulu is the hardest hitting wallbreaker over the other 3 because Grassy Terrain boosted Wood Hammer is stronger than say Psychic Terrain boosted Psychic/Psyshock. It has Superpower to deal with Steel-types, granted it looses Attack but Wood Hammer still hurts like hell regardless. All the Tapus function differently. Tapu Bulu is supposed to be the heavy hitter on the physical side. I think it should stay where it is

 

[Leo]

Tapu Bulu is the hardest hitting wallbreaker over the other 3 because Grassy Terrain boosted Wood Hammer is stronger than say Psychic Terrain boosted Psychic/Psyshock. It has Superpower to deal with Steel-types, granted it looses Attack but Wood Hammer still hurts like hell regardless. All the Tapus fuction differently. Tapu Bulu is supposed to be the heavy hitter on the physical side. I think it should stay where it is

While Tapu Bulu does hit harder than Tapu Lele and is probably the most powerful wallbreaker in the tier, it is still hindered by the fact that its hardest hitting moves are its STABs Grass moves. Grass is probably the worst offensive typing in OU with a bunch of 4x resists (Scizor Heatran Skarmory Celesteela Ferrothorn the Zards Volcarona Venusaur Amoongus etc) and some more 2x resists. This coupled with its low Speed means that you have to think twice before clicking that Wood Hammer and even with its strong coverage options it lacks the power to break past some of its walls and ends up sapping your momentum. I used Bulu for a while a couple of weeks ago and I was a bit disappointed because most of the time you will have to use your momentum to give your Bulu opportunities to fire off its attacks for free just to do 40 to a Celesteela on the switch with SPower and then lose it all. By the time your opponents resists are gone you might get a kill with Hammer but then will be forced to sack it on a rkill due to its low speed. Its Fightinium Z set is kinda cool but it gives up the offense matchup to absolutely obliterate Balance and Stall, which isn't always the best choice considering how offensive the ladder is. I'm not sure if it's at the same leve of the mons at A- but it definitely doesn't belong to A

 

[hecatomb]

Tapu Bulu is the hardest hitting wallbreaker over the other 3 because Grassy Terrain boosted Wood Hammer is stronger than say Psychic Terrain boosted Psychic/Psyshock. It has Superpower to deal with Steel-types, granted it looses Attack but Wood Hammer still hurts like hell regardless. All the Tapus fuction differently. Tapu Bulu is supposed to be the heavy hitter on the physical side. I think it should stay where it is

compared to the other tapus its pretty weak, and its only fairy move is dazzling gleam, even then doesnt help since its SP attack is so low compared to the other tapus, tapu lele does fine vs walls cause of psyshock and tapu koko doesnt care cause it can u-turn or volt switch to a counter wall pokemon.

 

[IQMathlete]

compared to the other tapus its pretty weak, and its only fairy move is dazzling gleam, even then doesnt help since its SP attack is so low compared to the other tapus, tapu lele does fine vs walls cause of psyshock and tapu koko doesnt care cause it can u-turn or volt switch to a counter wall pokemon.

Tapu Bulu doesn't use Fairy moves, it uses physical Grass moves boosted by Grassy Terrain which hit like a train

 

[Swagodile]

compared to the other tapus its pretty weak, and its only fairy move is dazzling gleam, even then doesnt help since its SP attack is so low compared to the other tapus, tapu lele does fine vs walls cause of psyshock and tapu koko doesnt care cause it can u-turn or volt switch to a counter wall pokemon.

Lack of a Fairy move is not one of Bulu's problems. Fairy doesn't even hit anything that doesn't already take more damage from Bulu's STAB Grassy Terrain-boosted moves or coverage moves.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Gengar A- ---> A: Agree
Gengar is damn good right now. Shadow Ball is super spammable since it's actually pretty common to a team not have a Ghost resist since the Steel type nerf in gen 6, and with a meta with a lot of fairies, Gengar benefits twice, since Dark types become less common and his Poison type shines since he both resists and hits super effectivelly them. Gengar is also pretty versatile and has a nice matchup vs Stall, since it can run Taunt, has coverage to hit most things that stall has (Ghost/Fight coverage, if I remember right, is unresisted, and Tbolt hit lots of things that could make some trouble for him, like Mantine and Toxapex), and if it's a Choice set, it can run Trick and make a good amount of Pokémon pratically useless, and just to make things better, being a Ghost type means that it cannot be trapped by Dugtrio without needing to use Shed Shell. It can also check a lot of Top tier treats: Pheromosa, Celesteela, Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, Skarmory, Toxapex and others are all Pokémon from the A- and above that Gengar can make then fear him depending on the set.

 

[hecatomb]

Lack of a Fairy move is not one of Bulu's problems. Fairy doesn't even hit anything that doesn't already take more damage from Bulu's STAB Grassy Terrain-boosted moves or coverage moves.

Yes but by using tapu bulu you are giving up a better tapu, and you are also giving up a fairy that can actually use fairy moves. Its still incredibly slow also, and its grass attacks dont even do much to other threats like protean greninja. And of course no one uses fairy moves with bulu cause its sp attack is so low.

 

[ManOfMany]

Yes but by using tapu bulu you are giving up a better tapu, and you are also giving up a fairy that can actually use fairy moves. Its still incredibly slow also, and its grass attacks dont even do much to other threats like protean greninja. And of course no one uses fairy moves with bulu cause its sp attack is so low.

I think you have this misconception that you can't use multiple Tapus on the same team, which is incorrect

 

[IQMathlete]

Yes but by using tapu bulu you are giving up a better tapu, and you are also giving up a fairy that can actually use fairy moves. Its still incredibly slow also, and its grass attacks dont even do much to other threats like protean greninja. And of course no one uses fairy moves with bulu cause its sp attack is so low.

Pretty sure Greninja doesn't want to switch in to Tapu Bulu. And its Grass moves hit very hard; Wood Hammer has 120 BP, coming off of 130 Attack (which is boosted by EVs/nature/potentially item), and gets a 1.5 boost from Grassy Terrain. Nothing bar 4x resists wants to come in, especially not something as frail as Greninja.
And even though it is slow, it is still fast enough to outspeed stuff like Rotom-W and defensive Lando-T

 

[Ropalme1914]

Yes but by using tapu bulu you are giving up a better tapu, and you are also giving up a fairy that can actually use fairy moves. Its still incredibly slow also, and its grass attacks dont even do much to other threats like protean greninja. And of course no one uses fairy moves with bulu cause its sp attack is so low.

252 Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja [Fire type] in Grassy Terrain: 304-358 (106.6 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
First, if you switched Greninja on Bulu, it would be Water/Dark regardless on thw ability, second, how can Bulu's grass attacks not do much damage when Greninja with a type that resist it is always OHKOed lol.