Snivy

[Heysup]

Thought Scyther was banned from LC?

I think we are going to be unbanning every banned Pokemon from LC at the start.

It's fairly same to assume certain Pokemon will be banned quickly, however.

The scarfer set is very predictable and is setup bait for any herbivore pokemon.

Giving a free turn to anything in lc is dangerous; but a free turn and +1 attack? It's good, but it can't spam mindlessly.

Almost every single 4x resist and Herbivore mon is fucked by a trapper. So you send in the Shimama, and after you possibly get a kill, Diglett KOes you. Send int a Grass/Poison or Steel or whatever? Then Hitomoshi Pokemon comes in, traps you, and OHKOes you with Fire Blast. Now you're stuck without your Grass immunity vs a +2/4/6 140 BP attack.

I could see the offensive combination of Smugleaf / Diglett / Hitomoshi / Houndoom Pokemon be quite absurd to deal with, especially since it has great resistances as well. Simply throw a nice Stealth Rock lead in with a weather changer and you're basically set.

 

[eric the espeon]

It's going to be a fairly scary threat, but 25 speed max with scarf and meh defenses/not great defensive type/lack of priority should make it not too hard to revenge kill. Still, it'll tear apart slow teams that lose their immunity/4x resist and don't have enough priority to wear it down. Other than scarf (and maybe a Juiced attacker) I don't see it as a huge threat, too easy to force out after a kill even if you give it a free turn to sub up. It needs to keep attacking and getting those lovely boosts.

 

[SlyShady]

Sub would probably be most effective. It would save it from faster revenge killers or counters. Perversity Leaf Storm is godly.

 

[I am Charizard]

I could see the offensive combination of Smugleaf / Diglett / Hitomoshi / Houndoom Pokemon be quite absurd to deal with.

That combo would be unstoppable. Scarf Smugleaf really only fears Nitro Charge Herbivore Shimama (who deals 18-22 damage to 0 HP Smugleaf, who has 21 HP, with a +1 NC), and that is just destroyed by a switch to Houndour and then to Diglett. Insanity if that's all it has to fear. Once that's taken out Smugleaf can just GO at it. It's like a not-at-all-laughable Rollout.

Well actually, a Shimima Herbivore set could function with Wild Bolt, Nitro Charge, Quick Attack, HP Ice and beat out the Diglett with a +1 Quick Attack most of the time, right (too lazy to figure out the calcs at the moment)?

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I ran some calcs, assuming that Tsutarja has 14 Special Attack.

Leaf Storm v 23/13 Jolly Scyther (Max speed and attack, with leftover EVs in Sp.D): 17.39-21.74%
+2 Leaf Storm v 23/13 Jolly Scyther: 34.78-39.13%
+4 Leaf Storm v 23/13 Jolly Scyther: 52.17-60.87%
+6 Leaf Storm v 23/13 Jolly Scyther: 65.22-78.26%
Scyther can take any Leaf Storm. It also takes a +2 Leaf Storm without dying, even with Stealth Rock.

Leaf Storm v Careful 33/19 Munchlax (Max/Max): 36.36-45.45%
+2 Leaf Storm v Careful 33/19 Munchlax: 66.67%-81.82%
+4 Leaf Storm v Careful 33/19 Munchlax: 100.00-118.18%(OHKO)
Even Munchlax has to think twice about Smugleaf. Switching Munchlax into Tsutarja's Leaf Storm will get him 2HKO'ed, even without Stealth Rock, bar the 19% chance that at least one will miss.

Edit: Shimama reaches a maximum of 16 Attack.
+1 Quick Attack v Jolly 18/9 Diglett (Max ATK and SPD, remaining EVs in HP): 44.44-55.56%
That gives Shimama a 2HKO with Stealth Rock. Without rocks, Shimama has a 46.15% chance of 2HKOing.

 

[Darkamber8828]

The scarfer set is very predictable and is setup bait for any herbivore pokemon.

Giving a free turn to anything in lc is dangerous; but a free turn and +1 attack? It's good, but it can't spam mindlessly.

Stuff that gets Herbivore-

Azurill (OHKOed)
Shimama (OHKOed)
Shikijika, the deer thing.

Neutral natured Leaf Storm vs deer: 37.5% - 50%
+2 Neutral natured Leaf Storm vs deer: 75% - 91.7%

Conclusion: Herbivore pokemon cannot take Leaf Storm. Except the deer, with an oran berry, 25% of the time.

btw, Herbivore does not give a grass immunity, like Justice Heart doesn't give a Dark immunity.


Fuck[ you serebii].

Stuff that gets Herbivore-

Azurill (who the fuck uses this thing without Huge Power?)
Shimama (Elekid used outclass. Plus it has Lightningrod, which is better for it.)
Shikijika, the deer thing. (fuck you deer thing. Switching to a steel, then a ghost means Jump Kick can fuck it over, and it's Mach Punch weak, but yeah, problem.)

Conclusion #2-Only one pokemon with Herbivore is a threat.

Spam Leaf Storm anyway.

 

[Naxte]

btw, Herbivore does not give a grass immunity, like Justice Heart doesn't give a Dark immunity.

You're right on Justice Heart, but Herbivore does give a Grass-immunity:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3022186&postcount=476
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79340

Confirmed Herbivore grants immunity to all Grass-moves, both damaging and non-damaging, and raises Attack one stage when hit by such. The immunity extends even to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Cotton Spore, Worry Seed, Leech Seed, and Grasswhistle, but not Aromatherapy

 

[Pika25]

Another good counter (assuming Scyther is uber) is Ledyba.
Calculations on Smugleaf Perversity Leaf Storm (14 Special Attack) versus max/max Careful Ledyba (23 HP 18 Special Defense):
+0, 3 HP (13%)
+2, 6-7 (26.1% - 30.4%)
+4, 8-10 (34.8% - 43.5%)
+6, 11-13 (47.8% - 56.5%)

Not to mention Ledyba can Baton Pass out of Candelar's (whatever it's called) Shadow Tag Ability. Also, Level 5 Ledyba with 12 Special Attack does 10-13 (47.6% - 61.9%) to a Level 5 Smugleaf with 21 HP and 12 Special Defense with Bug Buzz.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Another good counter (assuming Scyther is uber) is Ledyba.
Calculations on Smugleaf Perversity Leaf Storm (14 Special Attack) versus max/max Careful Ledyba (23 HP 18 Special Defense):
+0, 3 HP (13%)
+2, 6-7 (26.1% - 30.4%)
+4, 8-10 (34.8% - 43.5%)
+6, 11-13 (47.8% - 56.5%)

Not to mention Ledyba can Baton Pass out of Candelar's (whatever it's called) Shadow Tag Ability. Also, Level 5 Ledyba with 12 Special Attack does 10-13 (47.6% - 61.9%) to a Level 5 Smugleaf with 21 HP and 12 Special Defense with Bug Buzz.

This is true, however, Ledyba has quite horrible stats, and according to the Smogon analysis, the Baton Pass set has max HP, but minimal Sp.D EVs. Not only that, but it uses a Timid nature. Using the Smogon Baton Pass set, these are some calcs:

14 Sp.A Leaf Storm v 23/15 Ledyba:
+0: 13.04-17.39%
+2: 26.09-34.78%
+4: 43.48-52.17% (20.51% of OHKO with SR)
+6: 56.52-69.57% (OHKO with SR, 2HKO without)
Ledyba is KOed by a +4 LS, followed by a +6 one.

If Ledyba Baton Passes to Hitomoshi, let's see what happens...

14 Sp.A Leaf Storm v Calm 24/16 Hitomoshi (MAX/MAX):
+0: 25.00-33.33%
+2: 50.00-62.50%
+4: 79.17-95.83% (OHKO with SR)
+6: 104.17-125.00% (OHKO)

Hitomoshi does 114.29-142.86% with Flamethrower to Tsutarja, but it takes 75.00%-77.50% with rocks in play, which IMO is pretty hefty just to kill Tsutarja.

 

[Kindrindra]

^They were saying that Ledyba can baton pass to escape if Hitomoshi comes in, not that it should baton pass to Hitomoshi.

 

[Heysup]

Anything 4x weak to Stealth Rock that is slower and can't OHKO Tsutarja is not a good counter...

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Let's not forget you can only use the move 8 times.

Which is why I bring up Choice Specs.

 

[Typhlosion]

Now i'm no expert on LC, but I think that if you were to use specs, you would have to save Tsutarja 'till late game so you can see what it can and can't outspeed, granted that this little guy is pretty fast.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Let's not forget you will probably never get to use the move eight times without Pressure, what with LC's offensive/defensive ratio. Have you ever used Houndour Fire Blast eight times? Machop Dynamicpunch? Mankey Close Combat? (the correct answer is no)

Also, Specs suck because Life Orb is better, since the difference is minimal and you can switch between Substitute and HP Fire and Leaf Storm.

Besides, you can't sweep without Scarf, it's not 19 base.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

The name of this thread should be changed to Snivy, but put the word Tsutarja on the post so it will still come up In search results.