Soldiers Are Not Heroes

[cantab]

Soldiers are those who killed people demanding democracy, Soldiers are those who fight wars, Soldier are those who have killed others for the benefit of their own country. Without the compliance of soldiers Mao, Hitler, and Stalin would not have been able to darken the world.

In history, soldiers have probably more often done evil than good.

Of course, this is a bit off topic, the original debate was about soldiers in western nations today.

 

[billymills]

There's also the usual stunning display of ignorance about what the military actually does. Yes, soldiers are trained in armed combat and expected to be able to kill any target with maximum efficiency. That is not the only job a soldier though. Part of the military strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan is working with the locals to rebuild their society. They provide aid, leadership, and training. Outside of major battlefields the military is conducting research or maintaining security equipment. Some people in the military are lucky enough to never have to fire a shot at an enemy combatant, pirate, smuggler, etc.

You do seem to have hit the mark here. There is certainly a lot that soldiers do that is not completely violence related, but I think this is besides the point.

If there is any one occupation that is categorically heroic, "soldier" probably comes closest to it. Essentially what a soldier does is give up their personal freedom to do tasks solely for the benefit of their country. They have no control over where they are sent, limitations are placed on their ability to speak in public, all of the liberties the civilian enjoys are severely curtailed. The only reason civilians have those liberties is because of soldiers in the past. Conscientious objection goes out the window. You cannot object to what your CO tells you like you can reject what your boss tells you (though its unwise to do so in their presence)

This is the key part of the argument. How you can claim someone who blindly follows the orders of others is a hero, I may never understand. A mindless drone could do that, and to be a good soldier, that's essentially what you have to be. They give up their ability to make decisions, which inherently causes more casualties than necessary. In my opinion, a hero actually has to believe in his cause, not have faith in his superiors.

This Facebook group fails to understand that, and as Synre said it is unlikely any of these folks would sign up for military duty. World peace is never going to happen until one human never wants to dominate another. Since that is probably never going to happen, the best you can hope for is peace through strength.

The Facebook doesn't misunderstand anything, there is a clear difference in definition of hero. Mindless drone just doesn't cut it for me. World peace could happen in a variety of different ways, none of which are ever going to happen. It is possible we will always need some sort of force, but the military as it is needs change.

Also, I don't think baseball players are necessarily heroes. No, I'm probably not going to join a professional baseball league anytime soon. But what does that have to do with anything?

 

[Epic Cherubi]

If there is any one occupation that is categorically heroic, "soldier" probably comes closest to it. Essentially what a soldier does is give up their personal freedom to do tasks solely for the benefit of their country. They have no control over where they are sent, limitations are placed on their ability to speak in public, all of the liberties the civilian enjoys are severely curtailed. The only reason civilians have those liberties is because of soldiers in the past. Conscientious objection goes out the window. You cannot object to what your CO tells you like you can reject what your boss tells you (though its unwise to do so in their presence)

Jihadists are not soldiers. They do not fight for a nation. They claim to fight for a religion but the greatest number of victims actually share that religion. We wouldn't have so many of what Ancien Regime calls "mass murders" if our enemy didn't view maximizing collateral damage and civilian deaths as a strategic necessity.

There's also the usual stunning display of ignorance about what the military actually does. Yes, soldiers are trained in armed combat and expected to be able to kill any target with maximum efficiency. That is not the only job a soldier though. Part of the military strategy in Iraq and Afghanistan is working with the locals to rebuild their society. They provide aid, leadership, and training. Outside of major battlefields the military is conducting research or maintaining security equipment. Some people in the military are lucky enough to never have to fire a shot at an enemy combatant, pirate, smuggler, etc.

This Facebook group fails to understand that, and as Synre said it is unlikely any of these folks would sign up for military duty. World peace is never going to happen until one human never wants to dominate another. Since that is probably never going to happen, the best you can hope for is peace through strength. You must make the cost of dominating another so high as to dissuade all but the most ambitious, driven people. You can't stop those people with just threats, they require action. That's where the military comes in. People can grouse and complain about it and work themselves up into a frenzy over the specifics, but soldiers allow the rest of us the option to live comfortably and do that.

I fucking love you for that post.

 

[Quaily]

Well that person you were talking to is probably a can of garbage. I can't stand people like him who join just to take the benefits of the army without ever doing their job. I'll tell you that's not the major consensus of the soldiers in the army. I've had two brothers go and a third on the way. I'll be going at some point in my career. Of all the soldiers i've talked to that have deployed i can't even remember one who regretted going. I know soldiers who've gotten tired of deploying once their third one comes around and they've been in country for multiple years. but it's ultimately the job we train for. People that try and avoid that are people that never should have joined in the first place.

then not all soldiers are heroes?

I hate to Godwin myself, but if this was 1939 in Germany would you still be supporting the troops? The statement itself feels like an easy way to get out of actually doing something for a situation you might not agree with. It's such an ambiguous claim anyway. It's like in TMNT dam stage where April says you have her support. so does she help you? well no, but you do have her support.

People mindlessly support soliders who mindlessly follow their officers... see how this can end badly?

 

[Son of Disaster]

then not all soldiers are heroes?

I hate to Godwin myself, but if this was 1939 in Germany would you still be supporting the troops? The statement itself feels like an easy way to get out of actually doing something for a situation you might not agree with. It's such an ambiguous claim anyway. It's like in TMNT dam stage where April says you have her support. so does she help you? well no, but you do have her support.

People mindlessly support soliders who mindlessly follow their officers... see how this can end badly?

I already said not all soldiers are heroes...but to categorize soldiers as drones who can't do anything heroic is ridiculous. well i support the troops considering i am one. I don't really care much for german troops since i'm not one. I believe we are discussing the use of American forces. Of course armies have been used in terrible ways. I've already acknowledged these points. But it's not like noone in Nazi Germany tried to kill hitler, or disobey orders, or be an individual. In our army today you don't have to obey an order you know to be wrong. If your squad leader or your commander tells you to execute a child you are potected against it. You obiously are not bound to obey an order that breaks existing laws. Especially the Geneva Convention. There wasn't a whole lot of that protection in Germany. It was a different war and a different situation.

If soldiers mindlessly followed orders we'd never have had abu gharib. We wouldn't have any disciplinary problems. And we wouldn't have soldiers making intelligent choices as the battlefield changes. If there was no free thought except for the commander in chief then we'd have lost these wars.

And how is this ending badly? I mean it sounds like a zombie apocaplyse with all the mindlessness. That could be pretty bad i guess.

Supporting the troops does a lot for them actually. They'd like to know that their buddies aren't just dying in vain. That the people they are fighting for actually recognize their sacrifice is a huge deal to soldiers. I don't think it's ambiguous at all.

EDIT: Reading back on previous posts why does everyone think soldiers are just drones? It's completely wrong to think that way. Soldiers have a huge amount of discretion in the warzone. At a squad and team level we have high levels of free choice. It's not like there's an order for everything possible and you just shuffle around following orders. You have a mission and you execute as well as you can see fit. The commander approves any plans but it's generally his subordinates who come up with them. And when you are on the battlefield and the situation changes you don't have to wait for approval from your commander to do something. If you feel it's right you are going to have the needs of the situation behind you and generally will not be punished for acting without orders. Soldiers do have brains and cognizant thought proccesses.

 

[Eriic]

This thread is full of ignorant and ungrateful teenage hippies that have neither served in the military nor have known anyone that has. While it is undeniable there are bad soldiers in our military, the vast majority of them are good people who are concerned with protecting your freedoms while you sit on your asses playing Pokemon and calling them drones.

 

[Firestorm]

All soldiers are not heroes.
All soldiers are not [opposite of heroes it's too early to think].
Many soldiers are heroes.

They fight and as a result, you don't have to.

This topic has run its course. I have no idea what some of you are even trying to talk about anymore. Stop talking in absolutes. Also, I agreed with Deck Knight's post and so did Synre so we're either in the Twilight Zone or people are just arguing for argument's sake.

Topic Locked.