Some ponderings.

[Sajak]

Almost no ability can possibly be "inherently broken", since almost all abilities can only be of benefit if the Pokemon they're on can be effective. But for some Pokemon, their ability is a fairly minor part of their power. For some, it's more significant. And for a handful, it's one of the biggest factors; the Pokemon would be lacklustre, even outclassed, without it.

This is essentially the dogma that I'm challenging. What tangible benefits does it bring? "Simplicity", but really, banning a Pokemon with a specific ability is hardly complicated. Meanwhile, the drawback is reducing diversity, potentially in UU as well as and more so than OU.

Moody is just that: Inherently broken. Any Pokemon that has Moody, even with the worst possible stats, nature, and even at level 1, could by itself sweep an entire team simply because of the luck and chance the ability provides. No other ability provides that kind of power, so no other ability is therefore broken on it's own merit, and no other abilities should be banned.

You just said it yourself. Abilities are part of what makes a Pokemon as good as they are.

If we allow people to ban one Pokemon + Ability combo, then what's stopping people from arguing Pokemon down tiers with their lesser ability? Pokemon + Ability combo bans allow this to happen. In the case of Blaziken, we would have Speed Boost Blaziken only allowed in Ubers, and Blaze Blaziken allowed in UU up (or whatever tier Blaze Blaziken would end up in). Now, try making tiers for every single combination of Pokemon + Ability combinations. And who's to say it stops there? People could argue that a level 70 Kyogre is not Uber in comparison to other current threats, and should be allowed to move down to OU, and then level 50 for UU, and so on. Notice I haven't even mentioned Items and Moves yet either, which I assure you would be used to bring Pokemon (i.e. no Dark Void Darkrai) down to standard play. This is why Pokemon are assumed to be at their peak, so you don't end up with a ridiculous amount of restrictions just so that every Pokemon can be used.

 

[cantab]

Moody is just that: Inherently broken. Any Pokemon that has Moody, even with the worst possible stats, nature, and even at level 1, could by itself sweep an entire team simply because of the luck and chance the ability provides.

Untrue. Magikarp at +6 in everything isn't sweeping much. Besides, being able to pull of a sweep thanks to random luck that's usually not going to happen isn't broken (in the usual sense of the term), it's just hax.

If we allow people to ban one Pokemon + Ability combo, then what's stopping people from arguing Pokemon down tiers with their lesser ability? Pokemon + Ability combo bans allow this to happen. In the case of Blaziken, we would have Speed Boost Blaziken only allowed in Ubers, and Blaze Blaziken allowed in UU up (or whatever tier Blaze Blaziken would end up in). Now, try making tiers for every single combination of Pokemon + Ability combinations.

I'm only advocating splitting by Ability on Pokemon that have been deemed Uber (or BL) to begin with. It doesn't need to be done for everything.

And slippery slope arguments are poor ones.

 

[Sajak]

Untrue. Magikarp at +6 in everything isn't sweeping much.

I'm only advocating splitting by Ability on Pokemon that have been deemed Uber (or BL) to begin with. It doesn't need to be done for everything.

And slippery slope arguments are poor ones.

Consecutive misses make it a possibility, and that is what makes Moody inherently broken. You can give it to any Pokemon, and that Pokemon can now sweep an entire team by itself without any skill needed, just luck.

It doesn't change the fact that the argument can and still will be made, especially for tiering purposes. Not allowing this to be a possibility at all is the best solution, as it clearly defines what is what without exceptions.

It doesn't change the fact that any of those scenarios could happen, and that banning Pokemon + Ability combinations is the means by which the scenarios are possible. Banning individual Pokemon does not allow for this to happen.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Untrue. Magikarp at +6 in everything isn't sweeping much. Besides, being able to pull of a sweep thanks to random luck that's usually not going to happen isn't broken (in the usual sense of the term), it's just hax.

I'm only advocating splitting by Ability on Pokemon that have been deemed Uber (or BL) to begin with. It doesn't need to be done for everything.

And slippery slope arguments are poor ones.

Bidoof did. BIDOOF.

 

[Thorhammer]

What? Why? If by losing Tyranitar, a bunch of other Pokemon become viable, why is that a big problem? Please explain yourself.

If there was evidence that a bunch of Pokemon that are unviable now would become viable if Tyranitar was banned, that would be a good reason to ban tyranitar. however, no such evidence exists.

Untrue. Magikarp at +6 in everything isn't sweeping much. Besides, being able to pull of a sweep thanks to random luck that's usually not going to happen isn't broken (in the usual sense of the term), it's just hax.

Magikarp cannot learn TMs. It is an exception.

All Pokemon able to learn TMs would be broken with Moody, with the possible exception of Shedinja.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

It doesn't matter if Magikarp isn't broken with Moody: all Pokémon that can possibly be Moody are broken, including Bidoof, Remoraid, and Snorunt.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

What? Why? If by losing Tyranitar, a bunch of other Pokemon become viable, why is that a big problem? Please explain yourself.

Well, what becomes viable?

Basically, without permaHail, Sun, Rain, or Sand, the following pokemon become unviable:

Abomasnow
Ninetails
Politoed
Hippowdon
Tyranitar (maybe, he might still be good enough without Sand Stream)
Walrein (loss of permahail totally kills the Stallrein set by severely limiting Ice Body)
Venusaur
Basically anything that relies on Hydration, Chlorophyll, Snow Cloak, Ice Body, Sand Veil, Sand Rush, Sand Power, etc. (maybe. It seems to me that 5-8 turn weather isn't enough for any of those to be effective, except perhaps Chlorophyll and Sand Rush/Sand Power).

Furthermore, Abomasnow, Hippowdon, and T-tar would be outright banned until their DW abilities are available.

So, what would suddenly become viable if permaweather is banned, and would it counteract the number of pokemon that are no longer viable or even legal?

 

[The Original Red]

It's obvious that Pokémon who benefit from weather would get nerfed, but it's hard to say how unusable they'll end up being without testing. I think no auto-weather would promote variety, but my biggest qualms are with how overcentralizing the weather strategies itself are. I believe someone on the Smogcast said that storming the ladder with a rain team is probably easiest because it requires no thinking. It's a very pessimistic view, but if enough people think like that...

Welcome to the club! Your experience of 5th Generation closely resembles that of many of us. I think we all have issues both with the metagame and with the current system--I feel that one of the worst changes from the 4th Gen tiering system to this one is the loss of paragraphs. When voters needed to write paragraphs, you could always publish them to explain the exact reasons for banning any particular Suspect. Smogon's entire tiering process is very democratic; the administration neither chooses the Suspects nor votes on them.

As for your comments about weather, I feel that we are playing in a metagame with an incredible number of imbalanced Pokemon. I think banning, at the absolute minimum, Drizzle, Drought, Landorus, Excadrill and Garchomp would give us a far better and more enjoyable metagame than we currently have. Unfortunately for you and I, tiering decisions don't necessarily work that way, and that best we can do is qualify to vote, and do our part to shape the metagame as much as we can.

I'll see what I can do to contribute around here. :)

 

[asdfrozen]

Untrue. Magikarp at +6 in everything isn't sweeping much. Besides, being able to pull of a sweep thanks to random luck that's usually not going to happen isn't broken (in the usual sense of the term), it's just hax.

I'm only advocating splitting by Ability on Pokemon that have been deemed Uber (or BL) to begin with. It doesn't need to be done for everything.

And slippery slope arguments are poor ones.

What about suspects? You could argue that Garchomp without Sand Veil isn't broken, Kingdra without Swift Swim isn't broken, Thundurus/Tornadus without Prankster isn't broken, Reuinicles without Magic Guard isn't broken, Landorus without Sand Force isn't broken... the list goes on.
And banlists aren't forever. New suspects will come up as new movesets are discovered.