Move Substitute

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SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant

SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant

So, as many of you all may have heard, Substitute's received a nerf: sound moves now bypass substitutes entirely. These moves include:

Boomburst BOOMBURRRRSSSSTTTTTTTT:v4:
Bug Buzz
Chatter
Echoed Voice
Grasswhistle
Growl (lol)
Hyper Voice
Metal Sound
Perish Song
Relic Song
Roar
Round
Screech
Sing
Snarl
Snore
Supersonic
Uproar

(feel free to reply with more, so long as you test them first)

Of these, Boomburst and Bug Buzz seem to present the greatest of threats, with the former being a Special Normal base 140 power move with no drawbacks and the latter being a Special Bug base 90 power move, also with no drawbacks. This, along with the now-Fairy type Whimsicott's access to Infiltrator and Exploud's STAB on Boomburst, seems to present a few issues with using Substitute quite so often.

On a side note, SubPunch Breloom's really not having a good time, with the nerf of Spore and Low Sweep, along with fairies...

What do you think about this nerf? Unnecessary? Acceptable?
 
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Tsplodey

Tsplodey

Slightly off topic, but I read that Sound moves bypass Protect-type moves too. Is that true because Protect seems like the better option most of the time now if they don't.
 
Gerard

Gerard

Bug Buzz is gonna be the most dangerous one being able to heavily damage SubSeeders and having Volcarona as a good user in OU, in the lower tiers this will be even more dangerous though, spamming Substitute it's definitely not gonna be as easy anymore
 

nikovan

Infiltrator mons go to town with Sub users. If Chandelure can use status through Substitute, all those physical attackers running Sub to avoid Will-o-Wisp will be crying themselves to sleep.

Also, Crobat could Toxic anything, or bring them to 37.5% of their health if they managed to come in without rocks and used substitute on the first turn. Gyarados is a common Sub abuser. If it comes into SR and uses substitute, a Super Fang will leave him at 25%, I can't calc how much would a Brave Bird due, but that would be very interesting.
 
Kriptini

Kriptini

Gengar doesn't give a crap about any of this. Boomburst can't hit him (except for Exploud's), Bug Buzz does 1/4th damage to him, and Synchronoise will only be hitting him if the user was previously hit by Trick-or-Treat.

TorchicBlaziken said:
Flash Fire and Shadow Tag grant Chandelure switch in opportunities, Infiltrator does not.
Click to expand...
Too bad Shadow Tag Chandelure no longer exists so that's completely irrelevant to the discussion.
 

nikovan

Kriptini said:
Gengar doesn't give a crap about any of this. Boomburst can't hit him (except for Exploud's), Bug Buzz does 1/4th damage to him, and Synchronoise will only be hitting him if the user was previously hit by Trick-or-Treat.
Click to expand...
I'm sure no variant of Gengar will enjoy getting hit by a 252 Atk Crobat's Brave Bird.
 
Ashfield

Ashfield

At least Chandelure can't be trapped itself now.

And with Steel losing its resistance to Ghost, Heatran is less of a problem.
 

nikovan

Ashfield said:
At least Chandelure can't be trapped itself now.

And with Steel losing its resistance to Ghost, Heatran is less of a problem.
Click to expand...
For Infiltrator Chandy to deal with Sub Heatran? Yes, it hits with neutral Shadow Ball, but SubHeatran always carries Earth Power, even more so now that HP is nerfed. You would lose one on one.

SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant said:
Agreed.

252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Gengar: 165-195 (50.92 - 60.18%) -- 86.72% chance to 2HKO

And who on God's immaculate hanging left testicle is going to run 252 HP/ 252 Def Gengar anyway?
Click to expand...
I was going to call you unspeakable things for running max bulk Gengar until I read that last sentence. Then I lol'd.

Plus, with Gengar's already miserable HP the BB recoil will be hilariously low.
 
SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant

SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant

Ashfield said:
At least Chandelure can't be trapped itself now.

And with Steel losing its resistance to Ghost, Heatran is less of a problem.
Click to expand...
Uhhhh and that helps because...?

252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 96-113 (29.72 - 34.98%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 236-278 (90.07 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

^Even with NO bulk investment, Heatran easily tanks the hit and retaliates with Earth Power, which is likely to OHKO after Stealth Rocks and Chandy's usual Life Orb.
 
S0L1D G0LD

S0L1D G0LD

SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant said:
Uhhhh and that helps because...?

252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 96-113 (29.72 - 34.98%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 236-278 (90.07 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

^Even with NO bulk investment, Heatran easily tanks the hit and retaliates with Earth Power, which is likely to OHKO after Stealth Rocks and Chandy's usual Life Orb.
Click to expand...
But you fail to account that chandy might be packin' heat. (hp ground lol)
 

nikovan

SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant said:
Uhhhh and that helps because...?

252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 96-113 (29.72 - 34.98%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Chandelure: 236-278 (90.07 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

^Even with NO bulk investment, Heatran easily tanks the hit and retaliates with Earth Power, which is likely to OHKO after Stealth Rocks and Chandy's usual Life Orb.
Click to expand...
Wow, does it really do that little? Are you sure you took in consideration that steel no longer resists ghost? Because if you did, damn Heatran. You bulky.

S0L1D G0LD said:
But you fail to account that chandy might be packin' heat. (hp ground lol)
Click to expand...
Then it is irrelevant the fact that Ghost hits Steel neutrally because you're not using a Ghost move in any case. Besides, carrying a 60 BP move that forces you to change your IV's is kind of crappy, specially if you're after one particular mon your teammates should be able to deal with.
 
Slheyas

Slheyas

nikovan said:
Wow, does it really do that little? Are you sure you took in consideration that steel no longer resists ghost? Because if you did, damn Heatran. You bulky.
Click to expand...
He didn't.

252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 140-165 (36.36 - 42.85%) -- 97.46% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 192-227 (59.44 - 70.27%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant

SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant

S0L1D G0LD said:
But you fail to account that chandy might be packin' heat. (hp ground lol)
Click to expand...
I'm getting some weird errors with the Showdown! and Honko damage calcs with that move right now, but you figure it's basically a base 240 once you count effectiveness, as opposed to Chandy's base 120 Shadow Ball (after STAB), which still appears to not be strong enough to secure the OHKO.
 
Ashfield

Ashfield

nikovan said:
For Infiltrator Chandy to deal with Sub Heatran? Yes, it hits with neutral Shadow Ball, but SubHeatran always carries Earth Power, even more so now that HP is nerfed. You would lose one on one.
Click to expand...

I was trying to think of a Steel type that Chandy didn't already destroy with Fire Blast

Heatproof Bronzong? Now it gets hit super effectively.
 
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