Suicune

[DarkSlay]

Suicune

The Aurora Pokemon

Stats:
100 HP / 75 Atk / 115 Def / 90 SpA / 115 SpD / 85 Spe

​

Abilities:

Pressure: When this Pokémon is hit by a move, the opponent’s PP lowers by 2 rather than 1.

Water Absorb:: The Pokémon heals up to 1/4 of it’s maximum Hit Points when hit with Water-type moves.

NOTE: This thread was not made to discuss whether Suicune is overpowered or whether it should be Uber or not. This thread is purely for discussion about Suicune itself and its potential in regular play.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Suicune is back for some more action in Black and White. Suicune is already a good Pokemon as it is, but thanks to Black and White, it gained a great new ability in Water Absorb, which further bolsters its offensive and defensive prowess. While it did not gain any significant game-changing moves, it did receive a new toy or two to play with. Besides, if it isn't broken, why fix it?

With the Generation 5 metagame seeming to focus around Fire, Dragon, and Bug types from the get-go, Suicune has a perfect mix of bulk, typing, speed, and movepool to remain a dominant threat in upper tier play.
​

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
​

Level-Up Movepool:

Hide

- Bite
- Leer
Lvl. 8: Bubblebeam
Lvl. 15: Rain Dance
Lvl. 22: Gust
Lvl. 29: Aurora Beam
Lvl. 36: Mist
Lvl. 43: Mirror Coat
Lvl. 50: Ice Fang
Lvl. 57: Tailwind
Lvl. 64: Extrasensory
Lvl. 71: Hydro Pump
Lvl. 78: Calm Mind
Lvl. 85: Blizzard

New Moves: None

TM List:

Hide

TM04: Calm Mind
TM05: Roar
TM06: Toxic
TM07: Hail
TM10: Hidden Power
TM11: Sunny Day
TM13: Ice Beam
TM14: Blizzard
TM15: Hyper Beam
TM17: Protect
TM18: Rain Dance
TM21: Frustration
TM27: Return
TM28: Dig
TM30: Shadow Ball
TM32: Double Team
TM33: Reflect
TM37: Sandstorm
TM42: Facade
TM44: Rest
TM48: Sing A Round
TM55: Boiling Water
TM60: Postpone
TM68: Giga Impact
TM77: Psych Up
TM78: Level Ground
TM87: Swagger
TM90: Substitute
TM94: Rock Smash
TM95: Bark Out
HM01: Cut
HM03: Surf
HM05: Waterfall
HM06: Dive

New Moves:

Sing A Round - Special / Normal / 60 BP / 100 Acc - It attacks the opponent with song. If everyone sings together you can use the move in successive turns and have its power increase.

Boiling Water - Special / Water / 80 BP / 100 Acc - It attacks by shooting boiling hot water at the opponent. It will sometimes cause a burn. (30% chance of Burn)

Postpone - Other / Dark / -- BP / 100 Acc - It holds down the foe, making it attack last.

Level Ground - Physical / Ground / 60 BP / 100 Acc - It stamps the ground and attacks anything nearby. It lowers the opponent’s speed. (100% chance)

Bark Out - Other / Dark / -- BP / 100 Acc - The user continuously barks at its opponent, sharply reducing the opponent's Sp. Attack stat.

Egg Moves:

None

- - - - - - - - - - - - -
​

Notable Changes / Notes

Water Absorb: Like mentioned previously, Suicune gets a new Dream World ability to toy around with, and it's a nice one. While Suicune does resist Water already, the amazing part is the 25% health regeneration while switching in. This is great on a Pokemon with 100 / 115 / 115 Defenses. It also allows for easy switching in, which Suicune appreciates greatly.

Boiling Water: While it's not as powerful as Surf, the trade of 15 BP for a 30% Burn chance really bolsters the Defensive sets, like CroCune, allowing it to wall Physical threats much easier. Halving the attack of strong Physical threats will help its walling potential greatly, as nothing Physically oriented likes a Burn. CroCune and RestTalk never were about power anyway, and Base 80 is still decent (similar to the choice of Waterfall and Aqua Tail, minus the accuracy problem).

CroCune cannot have Water Absorb as an ability: The changes to Suicune aren't all rainbows. Unfortunately, Generation 5 has disposed of the widespread use of Sleep Talk, so the Suicune found in this generation lacks it. However, Pressure is actually a superior ability for CroCune anyway, so this isn't a major loss.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Possible Movesets:

Offensive Suicune

Suicune @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric

Suicune benefits from its new B/W addition with this new variation of its offensive moveset: Water Absorb. Water Absorb allows Suicune to come in and heal off hazards damage or previous recoil caused by Life Orb. While it's not a guaranteed health regeneration, it certainly is more helpful than Pressure on the Offensive set. Hydro Pump verses Surf is once again a choice for this Water type. Hydro Pump gives Suicune much needed power, but Surf not only is more accurate, but has double the PP of Hydro Pump, which helps on a boosting tank. Calm Mind separates this set from Starmie, allowing it to be a boosting tank that will last and last. HP Electric is simply a coverage move, as there are few other choices (and for lack of TBolt). If one wishes for a little bit more power overall, Life Orb can be used.

CroCune

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Bold
Moveset:
- Calm Mind
- Boiling Water
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

A slight variation of the current CroCune set found on most Stall teams, this pretty much replaces Surf with Boiling Water. The 30% Burn chance should be really positive for this set, as it prevents powerhouses from switching into CroCune (like Machamp currently) and hitting it hard Physically. With half attack and Calm Mind boosts, this thing will be nasty to take down.

There are obviously more sets this can run (CM Roar, SubCM, etc.), but this is just the basics of Suicune. Feel free to discuss other Suicune movesets and its potential here!

RestTalk

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Nature: Bold
Moves:
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Boiling Water
- Roar

Once again, the same set as the current RestTalk set, but with a 30% Burn chance over power. This is a huge benefit, as it can spread status around while also racking up hazards damage. This could be a great asset to stall teams.

Calm Mind Shuffle

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EV's: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Nature: Bold
Moveset:
- Calm Mind
- Surf / Boiling Water
- Ice Beam
- Roar

This is my favorite Suicune set personally, and it's really awesome that it has Water Absorb. This allows it to set up on a lot of Pokemon, like opposing Suicune. while normally Water Absorb Suicune completely walls non-Offensive Suicune, this set easily deals with Suicune through Roar and CM. Surf is the primary option for damage purposes, but Boiling Water adds a lot of pressure against switch-ins that are brought in by Roar. Both are a good choice. Optional EV's: 172 HP / 112 SpA / 224 Spe with a Timid nature. This is more of an offensive moveset, which works well with this set. (I.E.: Outspeeds Breloom, Adamant Lucario, etc.)​

 

[Neoixan]

what's boiling water's base power? I currently use hydro pump. (sleep talk doesn't use it its PPs)
when it comes to bulky pokemon; power >anything

 

[CRASHiC]

Boiling Water is at 80 base power.

 

[jojo9196]

Level Ground - Ground / 60 BP / 100 Acc - It stamps the ground and attacks anything nearby. It lowers the opponent’s speed. (100% chance)

this seems somewhat good, depending on how many stages it lowers the speed(mostly likely low)
this could work, or im just really dumb, and dont know what im talking about.

Also i think that in the long run Boiling water is better, because of CroCunes high survivability, it will have multiple chances to burn the opponent(if you hit the opponents poke 4 times you will most likely burn it)

 

[Neoixan]

hmm... I see it doing wonders with ninjask, smeargle or another baton passing poke... (leech seed ftw?)

 

[Raptorg]

Which was mentioned at least twice in the OP..

Anyway, I'm somewhat skeptical in what this will do.
Of course, it's going to be good, great, even.. But there's still banlist called Ubers that might want to have a word with Suicune..

Of course, I'm not saying it should go ubers, but it's a possibility, therefore it could be wise to think of some sets that could potentially work in ubers.

Based on the assumption that Kyogre remains a top threat, Water Absorb could definitely find a niche there as Suicune would completely shut down SpecsOgre and start setting up. Albeit without resttalk.
Another one would be Calm Mind Kyogre, although this one can actually fight back with Thunder.. So Suicune would probably have to run Max Special Defense to counter it
The reason Pressure isn't ideal here(Though it should still be usable) is because full HP SpecsOgre powers through anything that isn't called Latias, Suicune could, but it's too slow to reliably respond. Pressure stalling just wouldn't work because it'll likely get 2hko'd, so Water Absorb is superior.

Of course, you can think "Vaporeon could do this ages" ago, which is true, but it doesn't have one thing Suicune does.. And that's Calm Mind. It's the key to surviving in ubers because it allows Suicune to run max Def potentially allowing it to do more than just counter Kyogre.
Losing Resttalk is still a massive pain in Water Absorb Suicune's ass.

 

[Neoixan]

Water Absorb teams in Triples. Surf, Surf everywhere.

'nuff said.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

Based on the assumption that Kyogre remains a top threat, Water Absorb could definitely find a niche there as Suicune would completely shut down SpecsOgre and start setting up. Albeit without resttalk.
Another one would be Calm Mind Kyogre, although this one can actually fight back with Thunder.. So Suicune would probably have to run Max Special Defense to counter it
The reason Pressure isn't ideal here(Though it should still be usable) is because full HP SpecsOgre powers through anything that isn't called Latias, Suicune could, but it's too slow to reliably respond. Pressure stalling just wouldn't work because it'll likely get 2hko'd, so Water Absorb is superior.

Of course, you can think "Vaporeon could do this ages" ago, which is true, but it doesn't have one thing Suicune does.. And that's Calm Mind. It's the key to surviving in ubers because it allows Suicune to run max Def potentially allowing it to do more than just counter Kyogre.
Losing Resttalk is still a massive pain in Water Absorb Suicune's ass.

I think niche is the key word here. I don't think CM + Water Absorb is really going to elevate Suicune's usefulness in ubers much. I mean, uber teams have to deal with much faster, much stronger CM users so I don't see CM Cune making much of an impact there.

 

[DarkSlay]

Boiling Water is very much the superior option for CroCune at this point. CroCune appreciates the 30% Burn chance it grants, as with 100 / 115 Physical defenses and the opponent at half strength, not much will get by CroCune. It is still fairly powerful (Base 80 is decent) and has the same PP as Surf, meaning that there are no PP issues associated with Boiling Water.

Remember, this thread (along with any other thread on this board) is not to discuss whether a certain Pokemon should be Uber or not. Since there is no metagame, we don't exactly know what is overpowered or not, and what threats need to be countered. Please stick to standard play discussion.

Level Ground itself is an interesting move, but it is Physical, meaning that it is of little use for Suicune competitively.

 

[Volke]

Glad Suicune got some great upgrades (Although practically all bulky waters did). Water Absorb on offensive Cune will just mean that it can set up on even more of the metagame, along with healing any HP lost during any previous attempts at setting up or attacking. Great stuff.

Onto movesets, you should completely disregard Blizzard on your offensive Cune set, due to the supposed prevalence of weather teams. Sandstorm, Sunny Day, and Rain Dance all wreck your accuracy, and even with the Swimming Goggles boost, it will end up at a pretty unreliable hit rate.

 

[Energy Storm]

Yep, Swimming Goggles most likely won't boost a lot, probably more at a 10-20% rate. Ice Beam is still the superior option, unless we get proof that Swimming Goggles boost more than that.

And a offensive Suicune faking a bulky set and having some choice user accidentally trick over its Goggles?

 

[The King of Harts]

Do we even know if Swimming Goggles exist? Serebii doesn't have it on his items page. I hope they do, but I wouldn't go making move sets with them in mind just yet (says the guy that made a set for Feraligatr Goggles set...)

Anyways, Suicune disappoints me. I was never a fan since I hate Crocune with a burning passion, but with Drizzle running around for at least the beginning of the new metagame (I don't expect an instant ban, but I'm sure it will be), I was hoping to use him as a Rain Dance team counter....but he's horrible at it. Yea, he absorbs Waterfall and what have you, but both Kingdra's Outrage and Kabutops' Stone Edge (two staples of Rain Dance) do a LOT of damage, even to Crocune (CM is dead in the water).

While Suicune will still be very popular for his abilities to wall, deal damage, and now to possibly inflict burns, but don't expect him to be a Rain Dance counter.

 

[DarkSlay]

Very good point about Blizzard. However, under normal battle conditions, Blizzard combined with Swimming Goggles is the superior option. Weather could very well play a dominant role in the metagame, but it seems wise to assume normal conditions regarding these movesets until such a metagame evolves, or unless the Pokemon revolves around weather itself. The ability to 2HKO the likes of Defensive Celebi with a +1 Blizzard is a huge plus, not to mention a great boost with the possibility of numerous Dragons lurking in the metagame. Ice Beam and Life Orb get the slash for this very reason, however. Good point.

As to my knowledge, Swimming Goggles has been reported to be true. If it is incorrect information, that Suicune set will be changed immediately. As for being a Rain counter, I'm not sure if it's fair to assume that Water Absorb Pokemon should be defined as such counters. Vaporeon isn't currently a Rain counter, even though it has Water Absorb. However, CroCune is the closest set you can get to as a Rain counter for Suicune. Kingdra may have Outrage, but it never 2HKO's Suicune at +1 Atk. While Kingdra 4x resists Water, he is not immune to the 30% chance of a Burn Boiling Water may cause, which is crippling. Same goes for Kabutops, but without the 4x resist. It's not a great Rain counter (see: Toxicroak or Golduck in the lower tiers), but it's a pretty darn good check.

 

[Testing...]

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric

Since swimming goggles is fake last I heard, this will problem be the most common Suicune set. LO Suicune died way too quickly in Gen IV, and I'm not certain what will happen in Gen V what with Politoad and all the other factors. What I do think though is that this Suicune will be a terrific wallbreaker because I feel that the metagame will lean more towards resistances more so than having walls running around everywhere.

On the other hand I can also see a set like:

Suicune @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EV's: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
Moveset:
- Substitute
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric

causing a lot of havoc. The coverage this set gets is excellent and thanks to water absorb Suicune won't have to worry about LO+ Substitute draining all of its health too quickly since this Suicune is more hit and run than anything. Of course a bulky Sub set with STAB move of choice and Ice/Beam electric is always viable.

Other than that I don't know, it's quite difficult to speculate on Gen V at this point but one thing I am looking forward to is pairing politoad with Suicune.

 

[fearow23]

At this point, swimming goggles doesn't seem to exist. But anyways, Boiling Water helps prevent switch ins that think they could survive a water move. Dragons who believe that Suicune would have a CM/Rest/Sleep Talk set would hate to potentially eat a burn, especially if their physical. You lose power, but at the end of the day, boiling water is the superior choice. Plus, in doubles and triple, you wouldn't want to hurt your partner aswell.

 

[DarkSlay]

The OP has been updated! Swimming Goggles has been removed, and new sets have been added.

 

[Colonel Darren]

Defensive Suicunes can keep Pressure and earn a new toy in Boiling Water. Offensive Suicunes now have something they can switch in even easier on, recover health from SR and Life Orb after a Water Absorb, and hit hard back.

Suicune seems similar to how it was in Gen 4, but at the same time, got a bit better with these new tools. I wish the same could be said of things like Metagross.

 

[Manaphy]

Which was mentioned at least twice in the OP..

Anyway, I'm somewhat skeptical in what this will do.
Of course, it's going to be good, great, even.. But there's still banlist called Ubers that might want to have a word with Suicune..

Of course, I'm not saying it should go ubers, but it's a possibility, therefore it could be wise to think of some sets that could potentially work in ubers.

Based on the assumption that Kyogre remains a top threat, Water Absorb could definitely find a niche there as Suicune would completely shut down SpecsOgre and start setting up. Albeit without resttalk.
Another one would be Calm Mind Kyogre, although this one can actually fight back with Thunder.. So Suicune would probably have to run Max Special Defense to counter it
The reason Pressure isn't ideal here(Though it should still be usable) is because full HP SpecsOgre powers through anything that isn't called Latias, Suicune could, but it's too slow to reliably respond. Pressure stalling just wouldn't work because it'll likely get 2hko'd, so Water Absorb is superior.

Of course, you can think "Vaporeon could do this ages" ago, which is true, but it doesn't have one thing Suicune does.. And that's Calm Mind. It's the key to surviving in ubers because it allows Suicune to run max Def potentially allowing it to do more than just counter Kyogre.
Losing Resttalk is still a massive pain in Water Absorb Suicune's ass.

Suicune's not going even near Ubers. And Manaphy can do what Suicune could ever do in Ubers better.

 

[XxJohny2haixX]

Suicune now has a better ability to wall or tank other bulky waters, this new abiliity it pretty nice.

 

[Dragon Rider]

The new Suicune seems like it would be good for Double/Triple battle.It now has an improved Tailwind and Water Absorb.I can see it having uses with Surf+Water Absorb and Triple Blizzard strategies.I'm thinking:

Suicune @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Modest. 252 Sp.Atk (Speed mark for what you want to outrun after Tailwind.Rest in HP.)
- Tailwind
- Reflect/HP Electric
- Surf
- Ice Beam/Blizzard

Tailwind for turning your whole team into Agility users for 4 turns.Reflect for team defenses.Surf is STAB and fits with the whole SurfAbsorb strategy while Blizzard is for the TripAbomaBlizzard strategy.

The speed EVs aren't defined yet.Modest Suicune has 206 speed to start with which means 412 after TW.Thats enough for most things without a Scarf so you could just dump the rest in defenses.

Leftovers vs. Life Orb is dependent on which strategy you focus on.If you have other pokemon surfing Life Orb gives a power boost while you heal,if not Lefties helps with survival.

 

[Darkamber8828]

Suicune now has a better ability to wall or tank other bulky waters, this new abiliity it pretty nice.

Remember when Suicune was 4HKOed by a Water attack?

Yeah, me neither.

The new Suicune seems like it would be good for Double/Triple battle.It now has an improved Tailwind and Water Absorb.I can see it having uses with Surf+Water Absorb and Triple Blizzard strategies.I'm thinking:

Suicune @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Modest. 252 Sp.Atk (Speed mark for what you want to outrun after Tailwind.Rest in HP.)
- Tailwind
- Reflect
- Surf
- Blizzard

Tailwind for turning your whole team into Agility users for 4 turns.Reflect for team defenses.Surf is STAB and fits with the whole SurfAbsorb strategy while Blizzard is for the TripAbomaBlizzard strategy.

The speed EVs aren't defined yet.Modest Suicune has 206 speed to start with which means 412 after TW.Thats enough for most things without a Scarf so you could just dump the rest in defenses.

Leftovers vs. Life Orb is dependent on which strategy you focus on.If you have other pokemon surfing Life Orb gives a power boost while you heal,if not Lefties helps with survival.

Ice Beam>Blizzard, HP Electric slashed with Reflect. The problem is Suicune has pretty meh SpA without boosts, and Tailwind only lasts 5 turns, which isn't nearly enough to sweep with.

 

[Dragon Rider]

Ice Beam>Blizzard, HP Electric slashed with Reflect. The problem is Suicune has pretty meh SpA without boosts, and Tailwind only lasts 5 turns, which isn't nearly enough to sweep with.

I listed Blizzard since it fits better into Hail Abuse strategies but I agree that Ice Beam is better if not using Hail.I think I just listed it as primary since I came up with this set with Abomasnow in mind.Sorry.Like the HP Electric.Will slash that in.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Yay! Lots of other Water-types got Boiling Water, but Suicune makes super use of it!

 

[Arceus919]

Along with these sets, there is also the event Suicune for offense, (if you ever want one) but it has a restricted nature and Pressure. The original moveset is

-Sheer Cold-useless
-Extremespeed-also useless
-Aqua Ring-Maybe for some more hp while attacking? idk
-Air Slash-Mostly outclassed by Extrasensory (which isn't ever used) if you have grass coverage with Ice Beam, but it has a higher flinch rate

Now that I think about it, why would you use this? The only semi-benefit is Aqua Ring, but this can't really be a wall because of its fixed nature. If someone could come up with something to do with the event Suicune, I would love to hear it.

 

[TLK]

Suicune is still as useful as it was towards the end of the last gen. The offensive CM set is really great, although I also have changed from HP Electric to HP Fire simply for Nattorei (Gyarados and other waters are problems, but I run my own Nattorei [who doesn't?] for those guys).