Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[arnimacarni]

I've seen no evidence of this though

I mean I got back into pokemon by the time Crown Tundra was dropping and iirc they announced that all legendaries were returning quite late, it's def a given at this point in DLC2 and if all legendaries don't return we riot

The Tapus returning would be insane but specially Tapu Koko is the final nail in the coffin for the stability of this meta. Torkoal has some use besides setting sun but Pincurchin sucks big time, and if the Future Paradox mons get a way to exploit Quark Drive consistently I see the rise of Koko + Val + Hands + One of the swords of justice paradox + Unburden Sneasler + Some dumb shit a very real threat and might get Koko banned to Ubers

 

[ant4456]

I mean I got back into pokemon by the time Crown Tundra was dropping and iirc they announced that all legendaries were returning quite late, it's def a given at this point in DLC2 and if all legendaries don't return we riot

The Tapus returning would be insane but specially Tapu Koko is the final nail in the coffin for the stability of this meta. Torkoal has some use besides setting sun but Pincurchin sucks big time, and if the Future Paradox mons get a way to exploit Quark Drive consistently I see the rise of Koko + Val + Hands + One of the swords of justice paradox + Unburden Sneasler + Some dumb shit a very real threat and might get Koko banned to Ubers

the "all of the legendaries return" moment was HOME where most of them did in fact return. The rest are just gone.

 

[Hematite]

I mean I got back into pokemon by the time Crown Tundra was dropping and iirc they announced that all legendaries were returning quite late

Nope, it was revealed up front in the same Pokémon Presents that announced the DLC at all. Go to 14:53:

All of the returning Legendaries were also visible in the datamined list of planned DLC additions when those were discovered, and we already have the equivalent list for Scarlet and Violet.
Last Gen brought back every Legendary; this Gen is bringing back every starter instead and still has more than plenty of Legendaries.
We don't need every Legendary to be in every game...

 

[artificialdeath]

We don't need every Legendary to be in every game...

I honestly think it'd be more interesting if every legendary didn't return, but it is a reasonable conclusion to make considering how GF has shoehorned in a way to catch old box legends + duos/trios/quartets in every game since ORAS (also HGSS and BW2 but those were more limited in what you could get)

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I honestly think it'd be more interesting if every legendary didn't return, but it is a reasonable conclusion to make considering how GF has shoehorned in a way to catch old box legends + duos/trios/quartets in every game since ORAS (also HGSS and BW2 but those were more limited in what you could get)

considering that they just decided to slip a bunch of box legendaries into home with no fanfare this gen, there's a nonzero chance that this might be the first game in nearly a decade where they don't do that

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I've seen no evidence of this though

That's because there is none. Pretty sure they're not coming back, even Game Freak knows that Tapu Koko does not belong in a game with Quark Drive. Even if they end up in DLC2 somehow, all indications we've been given point them not being in DLC1.

Also not sure where The2009Zapdos is getting the idea that Revival Blessing will rise into prominence. Rabsca is a joke and Pawmot still has serious challenges in OU, especially an OU that will be soon gaining Gliscor. You hardly see it now with ridiculous Pokémon like Baxcalibur and Kingambit allowed in the tier to revive, why would Crawdaunt, who will be mid at best, move the needle there at all? The fact is trading a team slot for sometimes being able to bring an already lost Mon to 50% is just not a great exchange.

 

[VTMagno]

While I'd be glad if we already got all legendaries we're getting back this gen, I do find it odd that we're seemingly not getting the original Legendary Beasts/Swords of Justice despite every other paradox form being of a mon avaiable in the games.

 

[artificialdeath]

While I'd be glad if we already got all legendaries we're getting back this gen, I do find it odd that we're seemingly not getting the original Legendary Beasts/Swords of Justice despite every other paradox form being of a mon avaiable in the games.

maybe this is wrong because they would have appeared in the data already, but they could release them via raids/events. on that note did we know about transferable mythicals before the SS DLCs actually released?

 

[Hematite]

I honestly think it'd be more interesting if every legendary didn't return, but it is a reasonable conclusion to make considering how GF has shoehorned in a way to catch old box legends + duos/trios/quartets in every game since ORAS (also HGSS and BW2 but those were more limited in what you could get)

Welllllll... here's the thing:

In every game before SwSh, the Legendaries already existed in the game and needed to be made more accessible so they weren't transfer-only.
Gen VI and VII doubled down on this and did literally all of them because they banned transferred Pokémon from competitive and needed all Pokémon to be possible to obtain natively, which meant every Pokémon you couldn't just breed to get a Kalos/Hoenn/Alola-born copy needed to be directly catchable.
Now that Dexit has been established, this obligation is gone; the only Legendaries they have a real responsibility to make more accessible in-game are the ones that are already available through transfers. They used to need to make sure everyone had access to Latios because Latios was already in the game; they don't need to make sure everyone has access to Latios because Latios isn't in the game any more.

The list of Legendaries to cram into a feature like this is also way longer than it used to be:

- HGSS only had Gens I, II and part of III to deal with to finish what Platinum started; they ended up with 14 Legendaries.​

- B2W2 only did Gens III to V, didn't have to include the past games' restricted Legendaries (there was no GS Cup format in Gen V so they wouldn't be in VGC either way), and even cut three of Gen V's own Legendaries after BW to make room; they ended up with 17 Legendaries.​

- ORAS crammed in Gens II to V, and it already felt ridiculous... but let's count: 5 from Gen II, 8 from Gen III, 9 from Gen IV, 9 from Gen V; they ended up with 31 Legendaries.​

- Post-DLC, SV are already going to have... 42 Legendaries (or 39 if we aren't supposed to count the Loyal Three - I dunno) and a further 18 Paradoxes, even if there are none left to be officially revealed (but I think everyone expects Entei and Terrakion, so 20?).​

Even compared to SwSh, remember that while SwSh had every old Legendary and every Ultra Beast, SV also has 12 Legendaries and 20 Paradoxes that didn't exist until after SwSh! The list is not getting any smaller - if this is ever going to boil over and a line is ever going to be drawn, this kind of thing is going to be exactly why.

Then we consider the silly hypothetical that SV's DLC is to be anything like SwSh (all of the past Legendaries and all of the Ultra Beasts, while already having all of the Paradoxes).
We'd end up with... uh... I might be miscounting a little, but something like 67 fully-evolved Legendaries, 10 fully-evolved Ultra Beasts and 18 Paradoxes? for 95 entire Pokémon (+4 more NFEs), many of which have forms, plus the three Galarian birds which are effectively entirely different Pokémon from the originals... most of which are just there out of perceived obligation and to complete a set?
"All the Legendaries, every game" should really be starting to look like a joke at this point.
The reason we should not count on this to keep happening just because past games did it is because it becomes actively more ridiculous a commitment with each passing Gen... just like having the whole National dex in the first place, and they made the right choice there eventually!

I want next Gen to be more selective than these past two about how many Legendaries come back, personally...
HOME was a mistake, transfers were a mistake, hashtag #BringBackRegionalDex and all that--

Edit: oops, we posted at about the same time, but one more thing!

did we know about transferable mythicals before the SS DLCs actually released?

We knew about everything except Magearna, which seemed to be a last-minute addition to IoA as a HOME tie-in (it was the reward for completing the National dex but couldn't actually be brought over to any game until then).
That said, Shaymin has also been established as returning in the DLC this time around but wasn't datamined (while everything else has aligned perfectly with the datamines so far), so transfer-only Mythicals might still be in a state of flux!
I seem to remember Khu (the main reputable leaker) implying that the transfer-only Hoopa was a pretty late addition to base SV, too; maybe they just don't always put much thought into those until the end?

 

[ant4456]

Welllllll... here's the thing:

In every game before SwSh, the Legendaries already existed in the game and needed to be made more accessible so they weren't transfer-only.
Gen VI and VII doubled down on this and did literally all of them because they banned transferred Pokémon from competitive and needed all Pokémon to be possible to obtain natively, which meant every Pokémon you couldn't just breed to get a Kalos/Hoenn/Alola-born copy needed to be directly catchable.
Now that Dexit has been established, this obligation is gone; the only Legendaries they have a real responsibility to make more accessible in-game are the ones that are already available through transfers. They used to need to make sure everyone had access to Latios because Latios was already in the game; they don't need to make sure everyone has access to Latios because Latios isn't in the game any more.

The list of Legendaries to cram into a feature like this is also way longer than it used to be:

- HGSS only had Gens I, II and part of III to deal with to finish what Platinum started; they ended up with 14 Legendaries.​

- B2W2 only did Gens III to V, didn't have to include the past games' restricted Legendaries (there was no GS Cup format in Gen V so they wouldn't be in VGC either way), and even cut three of Gen V's own Legendaries after BW to make room; they ended up with 17 Legendaries.​

- ORAS crammed in Gens II to V, and it already felt ridiculous... but let's count: 5 from Gen II, 8 from Gen III, 9 from Gen IV, 9 from Gen V; they ended up with 31 Legendaries.​

- Post-DLC, SV are already going to have... 42 Legendaries (or 39 if we aren't supposed to count the Loyal Three - I dunno) and a further 18 Paradoxes, even if there are none left to be officially revealed (but I think everyone expects Entei and Terrakion, so 20?).​

Even compared to SwSh, remember that while SwSh had every old Legendary and every Ultra Beast, SV also has 12 Legendaries and 20 Paradoxes that didn't exist until after SwSh! The list is not getting any smaller - if this is ever going to boil over and a line is ever going to be drawn, this kind of thing is going to be exactly why.

Then we consider the silly hypothetical that SV's DLC is to be anything like SwSh (all of the past Legendaries and all of the Ultra Beasts, while already having all of the Paradoxes).
We'd end up with... uh... I might be miscounting a little, but something like 67 fully-evolved Legendaries, 10 fully-evolved Ultra Beasts and 18 Paradoxes? for 95 entire Pokémon (+4 more NFEs), many of which have forms, plus the three Galarian birds which are effectively entirely different Pokémon from the originals... most of which are just there out of perceived obligation and to complete a set?
"All the Legendaries, every game" should really be starting to look like a joke at this point.
The reason we should not count on this to keep happening just because past games did it is because it becomes actively more ridiculous a commitment with each passing Gen... just like having the whole National dex in the first place, and they made the right choice there eventually!

I want next Gen to be more selective than these past two about how many Legendaries come back, personally...
HOME was a mistake, transfers were a mistake, hashtag #BringBackRegionalDex and all that--

Edit: oops, we posted at about the same time, but one more thing!
We knew about everything except Magearna, which seemed to be a last-minute addition to IoA as a HOME tie-in (it was the reward for completing the National dex but couldn't actually be brought over to any game until then).
That said, Shaymin has also been established as returning in the DLC this time around but wasn't datamined (while everything else has aligned perfectly with the datamines so far), so transfer-only Mythicals might still be in a state of flux!
I seem to remember Khu (the main reputable leaker) implying that the transfer-only Hoopa was a pretty late addition to base SV, too; maybe they just don't always put much thought into those until the end?

before people inevitably say "well lol its easy"

remember that scarlet and violet did make new models and animations for most old pokemon, and retextured all pokemon, so you are not allowed to say random shit about "oh they can just port the pokemon" again

they are actually doing what they promised with dexit so they do actually have to make shit

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

maybe they just don't always put much thought into those until the end?

this is game freak we're talking about, of course there was no thought put into it. they pick approximately one thing per generation to put any thought whatsoever into, and this gen it was "how do we fuck up competitive 6v6 singles in the worst possible way"

 

[Bakugames]

i think all legendaries are coming back but simply because of vgc tbh. its a bit of a 50/50 to me though, i wouldnt be surprised either way

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i think all legendaries are coming back but simply because of vgc tbh. its a bit of a 50/50 to me though, i wouldnt be surprised either way

i do hope the ultra beasts come back for perfectly objective and non-biased reasons, but i'd also like xerneas and yveltal to kindly fuck off for a while

 

[Blaze_101392]

Yea, the number of legendary tier Pokemon (legendary/mythical/UB/Paradox) we have is insane at this point.
Gen 1: 5
Gen 2: 6
Gen 3: 10
Gen 4: 13/14 (not sure if people count Phione)
Gen 5: 13
Gen 6: 6
Gen 7: 21
Gen 8: 11
Gen 9: 22 (plus 7 more already confirmed on the way)

So if ever everything of this level came back we'd have 115. That's 10% of all Pokemon in this special class.

Additionally we have
Regional forms: 3
Alternate forms: 25
Megas/Primals: 8

For a total of 151 mechanically unique Pokemon.

 

[Carl_the_turtle]

Yea, the number of legendary tier Pokemon (legendary/mythical/UB/Paradox) we have is insane at this point.
Gen 1: 5
Gen 2: 6
Gen 3: 10
Gen 4: 13/14 (not sure if people count Phione)
Gen 5: 13
Gen 6: 6
Gen 7: 21
Gen 8: 11
Gen 9: 22 (plus 7 more already confirmed on the way)

So if ever everything of this level came back we'd have 115. That's 10% of all Pokemon in this special class.

Additionally we have
Regional forms: 3
Alternate forms: 25
Megas/Primals: 8

For a total of 151 mechanically unique Pokemon.

151?
I'm waiting on the region where everything is a legendary pokemon and your starter is like cosmog or phione or something

 

[Finchinator]

With Volcarona receiving noteworthy tiering survey support to be dropped to OU with DLC's release, the SV OU council will be voting on it. Nothing else received enough support to be voted on.

Given that not all information is out, some members are awaiting full information to vote and every vote will be reviewed upon the official DLC information coming out. In the meantime, Volcarona's status quo of being an Uber will be maintained, but it is likely we will have a verdict within the first 1-2 days of the DLC metagame.

 

[Finchinator]

With Volcarona receiving noteworthy tiering survey support to be dropped to OU with DLC's release, the SV OU council will be voting on it. Nothing else received enough support to be voted on.

Given that not all information is out, some members are awaiting full information to vote and every vote will be reviewed upon the official DLC information coming out. In the meantime, Volcarona's status quo of being an Uber will be maintained, but it is likely we will have a verdict within the first 1-2 days of the DLC metagame.

Speaking of the survey, results are out here.

 

[Blaze_101392]

151?
I'm waiting on the region where everything is a legendary pokemon and your starter is like cosmog or phione or something

I mean, Poipole is the starter in Ultra Space. I also only counted the fully evolved stuff so the number would actually be a little higher.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Very Excited to not have to run Pincurchin And Masquerain if I want to run Eterrain or Webs now. Very happy to see that Atails is back so now Snow teams dont have to rely on poopy Abomasnow if they want to run it.

Does anyone else have any relatively gimmicky playstyles they are excited for getting a lot better when the dlc drops?

 

[Magcargo]

Very Excited to not have to run Pincurchin And Masquerain if I want to run Eterrain or Webs now. Very happy to see that Atails is back so now Snow teams dont have to rely on poopy Abomasnow if they want to run it.

Does anyone else have any relatively gimmicky playstyles they are excited for getting a lot better when the dlc drops?

Wdym, Koko hasn't been confirmed to come back yet. Pinccurchin is the best you'll have to do with for the time being for ETerrain.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Wdym, Koko hasn't been confirmed to come back yet. Pinccurchin is the best you'll have to do with for the time being for ETerrain.

Was there not a post on the forum saying that all the tapus were gonna come back?
Have not been following the initial announcements.

 

[Magcargo]

Was there not a post on the forum saying that all the tapus were gonna come back?
Have not been following the initial announcements.

Most post talking about legendaries specifically coming back (barring fringe cases like Shaymin) are either cap or wishlisting atm. As are the tutor moves and new moves Pokemon are getting. We have to wait till tomorrow to get a full scope of what's coming back with the datamine.

On the bright side, if Pinc gets Rising Voltage and Scald Back, it'll be in a decent enough spot imo.

EDIT: If you want to see the datamined mons out, check out this link (BE WARNED OF SPOILERS).

 

[Finchinator]

Personal Pre-DLC wrap-up:

• The last VR Update is done. Thanks to the posters and our awesome, informed VR team for making this possible.
• This metagame we have had for the last few months will is effectively a sitting duck and will become outdated within the next day, so get in your last games while you can.
• We do not know exactly what is to come, but I would expect regular tiering updates in-line with what you have come to expect throughout the generation. Keeping everyone in-the-loop is my personal priority.
• I feel given the hand we were dealt with such drastic changes, we achieved relative balance in a quick time -- the metagame was clearly playable even if it was not your personal favorite.
• I think that bans like Volcarona employed process that needed to be optimized -- it was done without the same level of thoroughness that other bans may have had, but most end results were closer to ideal than not when it came to the initial quickban slates given the position we were in.
• I also feel that we never reached the highest echelon of metagame competitiveness and stayed around the outskirts of "good metagame" rather than approaching "great metagame", which has been a lingering sentiment about developed variants of SV OU.
  • This could simply be because of the repeated releases not giving us time, but it also could have greater, underlying ties be it banning philosophy of Pokemon, mechanics, or other things. I do not want to single out specific suspect results like Kingambit and I definitely do not want to hone-in on Terastallization at this time, but we will use history to help guide the future.
• We are doing a lot of improved thigns tiering wise with a greater community element than ever before, more communication than any prior generation by a long-shot, and an overall increase in transparency. I feel our current process is the best it ever has been. However, everything is always a work-in-progress and just because we have better infastructure does not mean we can plateu -- we must continue to take positive steps.
• With this comes more community engagement and awareness of dissatisfaction that spreads over certain decisions (or lack of decisions in some instances), which has certainly energized certain initiatives like more regular surveys in general or looking back into Volcarona to be specific.

 

[Magcargo]

Personal Pre-DLC wrap-up:

• The last VR Update is done. Thanks to the posters and our awesome, informed VR team for making this possible.
• This metagame we have had for the last few months will is effectively a sitting duck and will become outdated within the next day, so get in your last games while you can.
• We do not know exactly what is to come, but I would expect regular tiering updates in-line with what you have come to expect throughout the generation. Keeping everyone in-the-loop is my personal priority.
• I feel given the hand we were dealt with such drastic changes, we achieved relative balance in a quick time -- the metagame was clearly playable even if it was not your personal favorite.
• I think that bans like Volcarona employed process that needed to be optimized -- it was done without the same level of thoroughness that other bans may have had, but most end results were closer to ideal than not when it came to the initial quickban slates given the position we were in.
• I also feel that we never reached the highest echelon of metagame competitiveness and stayed around the outskirts of "good metagame" rather than approaching "great metagame", which has been a lingering sentiment about developed variants of SV OU.
  • This could simply be because of the repeated releases not giving us time, but it also could have greater, underlying ties be it banning philosophy of Pokemon, mechanics, or other things. I do not want to single out specific suspect results like Kingambit and I definitely do not want to hone-in on Terastallization at this time, but we will use history to help guide the future.
• We are doing a lot of improved thigns tiering wise with a greater community element than ever before, more communication than any prior generation by a long-shot, and an overall increase in transparency. I feel our current process is the best it ever has been. However, everything is always a work-in-progress and just because we have better infastructure does not mean we can plateu -- we must continue to take positive steps.
• With this comes more community engagement and awareness of dissatisfaction that spreads over certain decisions (or lack of decisions in some instances), which has certainly energized certain initiatives like more regular surveys in general or looking back into Volcarona to be specific.

It will be difficult to say what the legacy of the tiering during this time will be, but so far I believe that the council has done a solid job of tiering throughout this generation. Even the most "unreasonable" quickban (Volcarona) had some solid reasoning behind it (namely the timing of WCop) and it seems like the players there appreciate the council's decision.

Currently I think the power level of the metagame is a bit too high (akin to the BW2 metagame when that was current). Like that metagame, I feel there are a fair few threats running around that may be a bit too much to handle, though honing in on which threats to focus on is a bit difficult. Nonetheless, I think the council has handled the metagame well so far with a solid number of quickbans and suspects (I think we have had roughly 4 - 5 suspects in the past year + a solid number of QBs which is more than enough). I do feel that the way SV needs to be engaged with and thought about compared to other metas is quite different due to a number of factors like move cuts / additions, so that adds some level of difficulty in managing the various threats in metagame and teambuilding. I don't think there is any clear path forward currently, but that makes it all the more exciting as to how we tackle the challenges ahead of us in the DLC 1 metagame.

 

[powergo1]

Could we get Tera Preview going into DLC 1 please Mr Finchinator