i vaguely recall that they considered banning it and tested the meta without it, but it was so bad that it was basically unfixable without snorlax so they decided to keep it
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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I disagree with the the wall argument though, particularly with brute bonnet. yeah it walls it but quagsire & fire/water types shut down zacian-c, but that didn’t stop it from being incredibly oppressive
"very oppressive" when skeledirge exists zacian could haxx in these mons in gen8. Now zacian<miraidon overheat
Dnite is also valid although it hates Knock Off and actually loses if Waterpon is full hp and willing to commit tera. Amoongus on the other hand is in my opinion the only reliable Waterpon answer we have and consistently beats all sets. Its unfortunately kind of a shitmon but in all fairness the Amoon stocks should go up considerably if we do actually end up banning Gliscor and Dengo. That isnt to say that Waterpon shouldn't be banned but I wanted to mention those mons cause they do the job better than Dozo and Alomomola while also not requiring tera.III)
This is the easiest one to spot as ban material. It has 0 natural counters. The only shot you have at """""""""""walling""""""""" this are tera grassor tera flying
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Thank you so much for sharing this Drifting - I completely agree about Gliscor being ridiculously influential on the flow of all games it's in and generating absurd pressure with spikes toxic and knock, and hopefully this carousel of stupid Gliscor replays in much more serious play than the replay I shared earlier helps people understand how absurd this Pokémon is
"Ghold is the problem" gang consider it this way: Gliscor is capable of doing what Gholdengo teams do without even having to run Gholdengo
#VoteGliscor5
The short answer is that Gen 2 is kinda in a broken checks broken metagame where Snorlax checks Zapdos, and without Snorlax players would likely have to resort to Pokemon like Blissey in order to check Zapdos leading to more stall based gameplay than there currently is. No one really knows what the metagame would look like without both Zapdos and Snorlax, but at that point you're not balancing a legacy metagame - you're completely overhauling it, and that doesn't really do a service to the people who are still playing generation 2. If gen 2 was <current gen> though, that's not a concern - the metagame is still the active metagame and you don't have to worry about preserving it, and can actually unwind all the intertwined broken things.
More specifically, I think the reason lax is unbannable in gen 2 is because it leaves blissey as the best check for the electrics - a mon that is p exclusive to stall teams in that gen - and if you ban the electrics with lax then the problem is that teams basically get divided into stall or boomspam. Like the meta is deadass better with lax in it due to it promoting variety within the tier, despite having 100% tour usage.
The reason it gets to do that is because hazard removal is so impossible to pull off right now thanks to ghold, that nobody runs any. Removing ghold would absolutely stop gliscor from doing that because it brings hazard removal back into the meta.
Zapdos gets 2OKOHED by Ivy cudgel, let alone with tera. What are you saying? Clef taking ivy? In what universe? Furthemore dragons get absolutely bodied by play rough. Idk I think you are not very informed on what ogerpon does and the damage it dishes out. Rillaboom also ain't switching, knock does huge chunk of damage and removes the item, that's not a switch by any means. The only mon you mentioned that can be somewhat considered a check is corv, but even corv is not able to switch if it has minimal chip damage.
i will be voting 5 for everything on the next survey. i encourage everyone else to do the same so we can have a multiple-mon qb vote and get rid of more than one problem at a time. even if you don't believe some mon or other should be banned, vote 5 on it anyway, because if you truly believe it to not be banworthy, then you should also trust that it will survive a quickban vote
As the UU -> Uber pipeline continues, it makes me wonder if broken mons are getting the boot or if instead what's happening is that the community is just banning whatever meta trend is currently most prominent. It feels like the latter is what is happening. Specific trends and changes in usage patterns made Moon UU. Then, new trends and changes in usage patterns made Moon better. Does that mean that it was busted? Or that it got better in comparison to the new meta composition? I guess it's kinda splitting hairs (and some people would be in favor of bans for both the former and the latter), but I'm curious of people's opinions.
Similarly, the hazard sentiment right now feels like people are clamoring for a ban on a prominent meta trend, and seeing the rise of any adaptation as a sign that the meta trend should be dealt with via ban rather than changes in usage patterns.
Similarly, the hazard sentiment right now feels like people are clamoring for a ban on a prominent meta trend, and seeing the rise of any adaptation as a sign that the meta trend should be dealt with via ban rather than changes in usage patterns.
I think the issue with the Ghold-Gliscor debate is that Gliscor is kinda insane even outside of the effect it has on hazard stack
To start, I absolutely believe Gholdengo needs to be banned if we want to fix hazard removal in this tier. The chokehold it has on removal is simply not worth its defensive traits imo. It feels more and more annoying every day. People have already discussed to death why it's so problematic so I'm not going to reiterate the same stuff again.
In Gliscor's case however, I think it's broken in a very "traditional" way. Defensively it's almost unkillable, because it's immune to spikes and takes neutral damage from rocks which it heals off on the switch. It's immune to both knock off crippling its healing AND passive damage from Toxic, which is absolutely massive. It obviously has a very big impact on the hazard metagame, getting every hazard and being very good at laying them. It has a lot of sets and hurts all of its switchins bar Corviknight and itself in some way. It's broken in the sense that it's incredibly bulky and refuses to die, and has a stanglehold on the meta because of that. I do want Gliscor to be banned, but I do not think banning it will solve the hazard issue this meta has. Again, it's very much banworthy, but I believe both Ghold and it need to be banned for the health of the meta. Ghold for the hazard removal problem, and Gliscor because it's just vanilla broken.
To start, I absolutely believe Gholdengo needs to be banned if we want to fix hazard removal in this tier. The chokehold it has on removal is simply not worth its defensive traits imo. It feels more and more annoying every day. People have already discussed to death why it's so problematic so I'm not going to reiterate the same stuff again.
In Gliscor's case however, I think it's broken in a very "traditional" way. Defensively it's almost unkillable, because it's immune to spikes and takes neutral damage from rocks which it heals off on the switch. It's immune to both knock off crippling its healing AND passive damage from Toxic, which is absolutely massive. It obviously has a very big impact on the hazard metagame, getting every hazard and being very good at laying them. It has a lot of sets and hurts all of its switchins bar Corviknight and itself in some way. It's broken in the sense that it's incredibly bulky and refuses to die, and has a stanglehold on the meta because of that. I do want Gliscor to be banned, but I do not think banning it will solve the hazard issue this meta has. Again, it's very much banworthy, but I believe both Ghold and it need to be banned for the health of the meta. Ghold for the hazard removal problem, and Gliscor because it's just vanilla broken.
Both Baxcalibur and Roaring Moon got incredible new tools that led to them being banned, with bax getting scaleshot + alolan ninetails as support and roaring moon getting knock off. It's not like they suddenly picked up in metashare out of nowhere and that led to a decision to ban them, it's that they got much stronger than they were before and that pushed them over the edge.
Don't forget Bax and Moon both got direct buffs in DLC1 which are a pretty big factor in what got them banned. Moon did benefit a lot from the current state of the meta which makes its Knock even more threatening, but its silly to pretend that it was only the tier environment changing that lead to both of them getting the boot.
These meta changes arent really trends imo, they're essentially new metagames, as they are a direct results of new things being introduced into the game via DLC/HOME, making previously fine things overbearing.
Espathra was always a stupid cheese mon but people just didnt realize it since there was other shit running amok, as well as a month long tera suspect, which meant it was just flying under the radar. (Unless you played UU at the time)
Also due to ability nerf, dirge, and power creep
That's the thing though, Bax was doing pretty damn good with Glaive Rush over Scale Shot, and Roaring Moon was doing fine with Crunch/Jaw Lock. Getting one new move each suddenly broke them? (and adding Atales for bax, that's the definition of meta trends, it wasn't Bax the mon, it was Bax in the context of other mons)
Scale Shot is less power than Rush, and DD/Ice Body sets were more prominent than SD/Scale Shot sets. Knock is better than Crunch in a meta where boots removal is favored. These are improvements, but they are improvements within meta contexts. IDK, just felt like the things that brought them back out of UU to become Uber were more "oh right, it was good all along"/"they rock in this new context" rather than "they got 1 new move".
This is exactly the way the council will stop doing surveys if people
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I don't get why we're all clamoring about Gholdengo and Gliscor still, it's all too preemptive. Woger puts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the builder and limits the utility of fatter mons while suppressing the other symptoms of the unbalanced state we're in such as Manaphy, Gliscor, and to some extent Gholdengo. Not to mention that with Roaring Moon gone, it has one less reliable offensive check strolling around so its pool of offensive checks is even more narrow; albeit, defensive structures can open up to accommodate for it slightly better now. I don't understand why 90% of people in this forum can't seem to get that. It's more obvious than white on rice.
I really don't understand all the hype about Gliscor. It's very easily beatable by simple, common and totally non specific techs as I could illustrate in numerous battles such as this one for example.
This is how you people sound when youre coping about how everything is fine.
...Doesn't that defeat the point of having an opinion? Why waste time on running a single suspect test for each mon when we can decide in the survey if we want one or not?
Knock is almost 25% stronger than crunch/jaw lock and scale shot can be 5 bp stronger with 5 hits. Scale shot also frees up bax to use sd instead odd for more immediate power. Also you are wrong, sd/scale shot was literally the only bax set after DLC.
Bax didn't really need a9t to be broken because without veil and snow it still would be insane, just not as insane as it is with a9t support. Moon would still be broken in a meta without so many boots because knock is much stronger than crunch and it can fit into many playstyles because banded knock is just too useful and proto + dd + acro is still amazing.
Bax was already OU before DLC1 after the chien pao ban, it's just that ice types aren't super stackable generally and chien pao was the better mon and taking up that spot, and scale shot *was* significantly more prominent than DD glaive rush sets - scale shot was on 75.332% of baxcalibur's post-DLC1 above 1695 Elo compared to 27.870% dragon dance/20.015% glaive rush (https://www.smogon.com/stats/2023-09-DLC1/moveset/gen9ou-1695.txt). Alolan Ninetails being added also isn't a meta trend, though it is new context, and if it was true that Bax was a fine and healthy presence without atails and that atails was problematic even without bax then maybe there's an interesting discussion around which should have been banned, but I don't think that's the case and I don't think the majority of the playerbase felt that way either.
As for moon it's hard to overstate how much better knock is than crunch, not only is knock one of the best utility moves in the game, but it also has a higher base power than crunch the first time it hits the opponent *and* deals more total damage over the course of two turns (item into non item) than crunch does. It's not like crunch is a bad move, it's just that knock is one of the single most powerful moves in pokemon.
Literally not preemptive, Gliscor is making the metagame a cheesy slog, watch the SPL replays, completely independent of Gholdengo and hazard stack this Mon is very easily able to do very stupid things, there is literally no button that knock off/toxic/spikes/protect Gliscor can click that does not make progress, until the other Gliscor comes out and starts doing the same thing, it is mind numbing, watch tournaments and ask if this is what we want the game to be
I will likely be voting 4 on wellspring for the reasons you're mentioning however, pretty sick of autolosing to teams with both wellspring and Ghold
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having issues with a mon that's been a constant massive tier presence since day 1 and whose relevance has not dipped once isn't "too preemptive". neither is having issues with a mon that's warping the meta enough to singlehandedly drive half the pre-dlc tier into uu
I think Gholdengo should be suspected first.
Suspecting and/or banning Gliscor is only treating a symptom rather than the root of the issue.
Gholdengo is sort of the original sin of Gen 9 OU. It’s one of the few pokemon that’s appeared “on the radar” multiple times without any sort of tiering action and its ability has entire shaped the meta.
Common critiques of SVOU are that HO is too strong, hazards/hazard stack is too powerful, and that there aren’t a wide variety of archetypes that are viable (that is not to say you can’t use regular balance or something similar, just that it’s not as good as others). Good as Gold is a common factor that creates these issues.
Between basically eliminating Defog from the meta, it’s typing deterring rapid spin, and the ability to OHKO the best spinner in OU, Gholdengo is the perfect storm of factors that allows hazards, and the playstyles that come with it to dominate.
This isn’t anything revolutionary, but I think has been slightly overlooked by the player base and council because outside of its ability, Gholdengo, although a very good pokemon, it’s not overwhelming to handle. Its typing, stats, and move pool are all great, but OU has not seen/dealt with before. It’s also a highly enjoyable mon to use in the team-builder because its excellent offensive and defensive versatility between scarf, balloon, leftovers, covert cloak, and (although not as often right now) specs allow it to fit nicely on a lot of archetypes.
Finchinator often mentions a mon being over burdensome in the builder as a reason for a suspect, Gholdengo goes beyond this. The entire meta has been shaped around what its ability can do. I think the high usage and viability of Cinderace and, to an extent, Great Tusk stem from Gholdengo.
Ghold is a super fun pokemon to use, but unfortunately I think it’s the common denominator for a lot of the issues people have with OU right now and for that reason I think it needs to at least be suspected.
Suspecting and/or banning Gliscor is only treating a symptom rather than the root of the issue.
Gholdengo is sort of the original sin of Gen 9 OU. It’s one of the few pokemon that’s appeared “on the radar” multiple times without any sort of tiering action and its ability has entire shaped the meta.
Common critiques of SVOU are that HO is too strong, hazards/hazard stack is too powerful, and that there aren’t a wide variety of archetypes that are viable (that is not to say you can’t use regular balance or something similar, just that it’s not as good as others). Good as Gold is a common factor that creates these issues.
Between basically eliminating Defog from the meta, it’s typing deterring rapid spin, and the ability to OHKO the best spinner in OU, Gholdengo is the perfect storm of factors that allows hazards, and the playstyles that come with it to dominate.
This isn’t anything revolutionary, but I think has been slightly overlooked by the player base and council because outside of its ability, Gholdengo, although a very good pokemon, it’s not overwhelming to handle. Its typing, stats, and move pool are all great, but OU has not seen/dealt with before. It’s also a highly enjoyable mon to use in the team-builder because its excellent offensive and defensive versatility between scarf, balloon, leftovers, covert cloak, and (although not as often right now) specs allow it to fit nicely on a lot of archetypes.
Finchinator often mentions a mon being over burdensome in the builder as a reason for a suspect, Gholdengo goes beyond this. The entire meta has been shaped around what its ability can do. I think the high usage and viability of Cinderace and, to an extent, Great Tusk stem from Gholdengo.
Ghold is a super fun pokemon to use, but unfortunately I think it’s the common denominator for a lot of the issues people have with OU right now and for that reason I think it needs to at least be suspected.
I agree that standalone Gholdengo is a big threat with NP sets and even Trick sets to a lesser degree. It is bolstered further by its ability that dictates team construction and gameplay a greater amount than I can really put into words. And it will 100% be included on tiering surveys.
But for the reasons I explain here, I much prefer suspecting Gliscor first. I intend to give it a 5 on the survey and Gholdengo probably a 3.
But for the reasons I explain here, I much prefer suspecting Gliscor first. I intend to give it a 5 on the survey and Gholdengo probably a 3.
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