Team Ecruteak [Uber RMT]

[Crystal]

Hi. I'm a regular on Shoddy who usually sticks to the OU and UU metagame, under MissHawthorne, but recently I've become more interested in the unstable realm of the Uber tier.

I've been messing around with some established uber teams to equate myself, such as Deep Thought's Shadows and Dust, and I'm now taking a swing at building my own team. This team is young, but from my experiences with it, it has been rather successful.

To clarify, this RMT thread is more a 'can you help me to improve' type, than a 'Showcase the team' one.

Team Building Process:

Since I'm playing through Heart Gold, I felt inspired to use two of the older and thus more nostalgic titans. Roosting on Tin and Formely Brass Tower respectively; Ho-oh and Lugia, thus, Team Ecruteak.

Ho-Oh and Lugia share a weakness to rock, and while Forretress does not resist rock, it provides rapid spin to remove stealth rock, which is near-essential to using Ho-Oh, and very beneficial to Lugia. Forretress also throws in a few hazards of its own, and provides an adequate response to the Outrages, Draco Meteors and Ice Beams that fly around the tier.

Ho-Oh and Lugia share another weakness; Electric, so Groudon provides a good immunity. Groudon also happens to provide that rock resistance that Forretress lacks, and he brings with him the sun that turn Ho-Oh from threatening into terrifying.

Garchomp, while providing yet another resistance to rock and electric, was selected mainly for his ability to land a powerful Dragon Claw or Outrage into the faces of every Dragon in ubers, with STAB Earthquake for Dialga and at a pace only matched by near-unheard of Scarf Lati@s. Garchomp is the main revenge killer for this team and the mandatory Dragon.

Finally, I needed a lead. Deoxys-S is a basic, yet effective lead that matches up well with a lot of things. It also provides a fast taunt which makes it even harder for my opponent to threaten my birds with stealth rock.

A closer look:

Deoxys-S @ Lum Berry
Jolly
252 HP / 6 Atk / 252 Spe
~Spikes
~Stealth Rock
~Taunt
~Extremespeed

Deoxys-S is a rather basic yet effective lead. Lugia, the core sweeper of this team, is not the most ferocious in terms of offensive stats, and thus appreciates spikes and stealth rock to wear down the opposition. Taunt also assists my team by preventing annoyances such as opposing hazards and screens while disabling any Wobbuffet. Lum Berry is for Darkrai and Thunderwave Groudon/Kyogre, while Extremespeed is mainly for breaking sashes and beating Deoxys-A.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Careful
252 HP / 44 Atk / 212 SpD
~Toxic Spikes
~Light Screen
~Rapid Spin
~Payback

As the bagworm Pokemon, Forretress is literally a bag of resistances. Forretress' role is mainly to spin away stealth rock, while setting up Toxic Spikes if it has the time. Since Deoxys is carrying Spikes and Groudon Stealth Rock, I effectively have a free moveslot, and Light Screen is always nice in such a specially-offensive environment. Forretress is my only dragon resist, and it's lovely to have something to throw infront of Latias, Dialga, Rayquaza, Palkia and whoever else is trying to outrage or summon meteors.

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Jolly
6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Toxic
~Dragon Claw
~Earthquake
~Outrage

Scarf Chomp is my team's dragon, while simultaneously being my team's anti-dragon. My main reason for choosing this over Palkia is that instead of speed tying with opposing Palkia (which, with Kyogre support, is a huge threat to my team), Garchomp is effectively guaranteed to take out any Dragon in the tier that don't invest all of their EVs into defenses, or are called Scarf Lati@s.

Groudon @ Leftovers
Impish
252 HP / 36 Atk / 156 Def / 60 SpD / 8 Spe
~Dragon Claw
~Thunderwave
~Stealth Rock / Roar?
~Earthquake

On a team with Lugia, it might seem odd to use a Pokemon which is so physically orientated, but because the variant of Lugia I am using is offensively orientated, I am no longer able to use it to reliably halt opposing Rayquaza or Garchomp. As well as another crucial electric/rock resistance, Groudon provides me with a sturdy answer to those dangerous physical sweepers, and a combination of paralysis support and sunlight bring out the very best in Ho-Oh, patching up its low speed and turning that Sacred Fire into an attack which rivals Kyogre's Water Spout (when the burn rate is considered). Since I already have a stealth rock user, I am unsure whether Roar would be a better option in the third slot, however I've found that with Deoxys I rarely have time to setup Stealth Rock if I'm focusing on Spikes, which makes Groudon attractive as a backup.

Ho-oh @ Leftovers
Adamant
216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
~Earthquake / Substitute?
~Roost
~Brave Bird
~Sacred Fire

The first of the two Pokemon this team is based around. A Ho-Oh, while supported by rapid spin, stealth rock, spikes, paralysis and sunlight is among the most fearsome yet realistic situations in the game. Sporting immense special bulk, a reliable recovery move and two fantastic STAB attacks, Ho-Oh will wreak some massive damage on any team that is unprepared. Even the likes of Scarf Palkia's STAB surf will fail to bring Ho-Oh down as long as the sun is shining.

Lugia @ Life Orb
Timid
6 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~Earth Power
~Roost
~Calm Mind
~Aeroblast

Ho-Oh's avian counterpart; this is a Lugia set which caught my eye in the Contributions and Corrections forum. I've always had a soft spot for signature moves, and a set with which Lugia could viably utilize Aeroblast appeals greatly to me, so I decided to give this set a whirl, expecting it to be gimmicky and ultimately mediocre. To my surprise, this Lugia is actually a very threatening sweeper. I've found that the special attacking giants of ubers have no hope of breaking Lugia once it begins to accumulate special defense boosts, and this is supported by the fact that Groudon's sunlight will neuter the effectiveness of Thunder and any water attacks coming from a Pokemon other than Kyogre (who will naturally bring rain), but on top of this, the physical attackers which are more likely to break Lugia (since its 106/130 physical defense is just awful), Rayquaza, Groudon, Garchomp, Dialga, Scizor and Metagross, find themselves simply outsped by Lugia, and with even a single boost, Lugia will outdamage them and even roost stall Stone Edges. I chose Earth Power over Ice Beam because Ice Beam variants struggle against Dialga and Metagross, while Aeroblast is powerful enough neutrally to deal with Groudon, Garchomp and Rayquaza.


The main problems I can see with this team are lack of a spin blocker, and a rather pronounced Kyogre weakness. I'm not sure how to rectify these.
Advice would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Jibaku]

Hello there. Not a bad team for a start, but a quick glance over it reveals a few key weaknesses that must be addressed immediately.

These key weaknesses are:
- Lack of spinblocker
- Lack of Water resistance

Since your team is very entry hazard based, as it seems, someone to block Rapid Spin is absolutely necessary. At this point, Forretress can come into your lead, or a Scarfed Dragon attack from Garchomp, and Rapid Spin away all of your hard work, while setting up dangerous entry hazards on its own.

Your team currently have two Stealth Rock users, and Light Screen on Forretress appears to be a filler more than anything. For these reasons, I recommend making these changes

- Drop Light Screen on Forretress for Spikes, and move it to the lead position
- Replace Deoxys-S with Mixed Giratina-O

Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 Atk / 196 Spd / 64 SAtk
Naive nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage / Dragon Claw
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Shadow Sneak

With the Spikes moved over to Forretress, and the "Stealth Rock redundancy" removed, Giratina-O now has room to be in the team. It provides the mandatory spin blocking ability as well as a Water resistance. However, Giratina-O should not be the team's solitary Water resistance, as it is 2HKOed by Kyogre's Choice Specs Water Spout with ease.

On a team with Groudon, Garchomp seems a bit redundant when there is another revenger worth considering: Palkia. Palkia provides the team with stronger Water resistance while still being able to revenge the likes of Dragon Dance Rayquaza. You say that Palkia is a threat to your team and that's why you chose Scarfchomp. Consider this: Palkia's Water resistance lets you switch into opposing Palkia as they use a Water attack, something you can't do with Garchomp. Therefore, your team is MORE weak to Palkia with Scarfchomp as opposed to Scarfkia. Scarfed Spacial Rends can be easily absorbed by Forretress, Ho-oh, and Lugia.

Palkia @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 6 Atk / 252 Spd / 252 SAtk
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Outrage
- Spacial Rend
- Fire Blast
- Thunder

Outrage is especially useful for destroying the Lati@s, who may actually give your team problems and can easily take a Spacial Rend after one Calm Mind. If you want, you can move some Special Attack to Attack to 3HKO bulky Kyogre with Outrage. Also, this may sound like an extremely stupid idea, but you may want to consider Power Gem on Palkia due to your Ho-oh weakness lol

Groudon's moveset should now be, after making these changes: Earthquake/Stone Edge (you need this for enemy Ho-oh)/Roar/Stealth Rock. However, be warned that Groudon is slower and is 2HKoed by Sacred Fire, so you may have to be creative here.

 

[Crystal]

Thanks for the advice!

The changes you've suggested are good, but from my testing I'm finding that Forretress isn't proving to be a very good lead. It can't do much to Darkrai, it can't do much about getting taunted by things that aren't weak to payback and it falls to any lead Mewtwo, Rayquaza etc that carry a fire move. :<

 

[Jibaku]

Against Darkrai, you can perhaps handle it by letting Lugia take the Dark Void and revenging with Palkia

Ho-oh handles Mixquaza/Mewtwo leads.

What Pokemon in the Uber metagame uses Taunt that isn't weak to Payback? Well, barring Heatran, but is Forretress going to fight Heatran?

If Forretress lead seems unfitting for you, try leading with Groudon instead, as it beats Lead Dialga and doesn't fall to ransom Fire Blasts. However, due to the prevalence of Deoxys-S + Giratina-O combos you get less chances to Rapid Spin as opposed to Forretress leading, so beware.

 

[Crystal]

Well yeah, I usually switch to Ho-Oh against Rayquaza leads, but end up being 2HKOed by Draco Meteor + Outrage. >.<;

And the thought of throwing my team's core sweeper into a sleep move and then going straight to a choice Pokemon against a lead is never great.

So maybe Lum Groudon is the best idea as a lead? I'll test that...