Gen 6 The XY Ubers Viability Ranking Thread [Read Post #1000]

[Chronic Smash]

Nominating Ho-Oh to S-Rank.

Ho-oh is in my opinion the best Special Wall in the game.I gets reliable recovery in Roost. Amazing defensive stats in 106/90/154, decent offensive stats and a broken ability in my opinion in the form of Regenerator, with the introduction of Fairy Types it got even better. It can completely wall Xerneas if it is not packing Thunder, and takes like 37% from +2 Fairy Aura Boosted Timid Xerneas,it can also completely shutdown the blobs by substituting on their Wishes or on their status and the blobs won't be able to break the substitute as Seismic Toss does 100 damage and the Sub has more than 100 HP. Ho-Oh also has the ability to wall the likes of Darkrai and can also counter Mega Blaziken,Genesect as it won't get the boost it needs to beat Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh has 344 uninvested Special defense. Just to show how bulky it is, it matches a fully invested Special Defensive Rotom-W with Calm Nature and it has even higher Special Defense than Specially Defensive Heatran and that's without investment. And Ho-Oh doesn't have to limit itself to being defensive to work. It can also use it's very solid attack stat (base 130) to wreck havoc with a Life Orb and it's natural bulk can be a deadly combo.
Only drawback I can think off is his average physical bulk and his 4x weakness to Stealth Rock but it is extremely easy to get rid of hazards on your side of the field with Defog Support which is very helpful in the ubers metagame.

This is the damage Ho-Oh can do with Life Orb:

252 Atk+ Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def+ Arceus-Ghost (39.8-47.5%) 44.5% to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
252 Atk+ Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def+ Mandibuzz (46.2-54.4%) Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk+ Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def+ Deoxys-Defense (47.3-56.5%) Guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

 

[Haruno]

I'm going to try to pitch in my own opinions. Just going to focus on some S/A+ rank candidates.

-Kyogre: Basically everything Manaphy said. Scarf, Specs, and Defensive are all godly sets. If I want a revenge killer, Choice Scarf Kyogre is going to be my first thought. If I need a status sponge and defensive backbone, I'm going to want to use the insanely good defensive Kyogre. Choice Specs is the same motherfucker it has always been so I don't really need to talk about him, still another premier set for the roles it covers. Kyogre is just a really diverse and metagame defining Pokemon, it's super easy to stick him on teams and get results. I feel you guys criticize the non-perma Rain too much, 5 turns is still enough utility for you to breath easier about using Thunder and, of course, weather isn't the only thing you can call utility. Kyogre's revenge killing and status sponging abilities help out a team a lot as well.

NO ONE IS DISPUTING KYOGRES POTENTIAL AS A STANDALONE MON. That had to be emphasized hence the all caps. Sows. The problem with your whole post is exactly what you criticize us for, the importance of the non perma rain. This change does little/nothing to for offensive variants of kyogre which will never be out for 5+ turns against a competent player (though the inability to reset the rain count when a drizzle user comes back in sucks all kinds of ass) but the rain change means that the godly team support that kyogre provided in previous gens is little to nonexistent. Need one of the best offensive answers to blaze and ekiller in the form of swift swim kabutops? Guess what, you're almost stuck with its incredible lack luster speed and inability to do shit outside of rain. Need a reliable spinner since you can't afford to use defog since you really need hazard damage? Well tough luck, tentacruel is hit now without rain dish constantly healing it. The examples go on and on, point is without the ability to give permanent rain a multitude of playstyles are completely dead and kyogre no longer gives the team support that it used to. So rather than criticizing us for our focus on the lack of perma rain, you should look through your own post and acknowledge that it is indeed a major problem and because of this huge problem, does not make ogre worthy of S rank.

-Xerneas: I hate rewarding the Geomancy hype with sticking this guy in S rank but honestly I think he deserves it for the reasons Polop pointed out. Only hesitation is how that mega Gengar weakens arguably calls for some team support. I could see it being A+ for this reason alone because it's hard to rely on a mon so weak to a common metagame defining trapper.

What are you even talking about? Mega gengar might certainly choose its battles but the only way it has any chance of winning is if it predicts a double switch against geoxern and then it can proceed to dbond or sludge wave it to hell but that's a BIG IF since prediction is never a valid argument since it goes both ways. That's also not considering how scarfed xern can defeat gengar 1v1 with prior damage. If xern already has a geomancy boost, then gengar no longer threatens it, not to mention there are more factors in this matchup that don't make sense (gengar has to be Mevo'd already). Overall if you think xerneas is reliably checked by gengar and that being your main reason for making it A+, you couldn't be anymore mistaken.

-Yveltal: Not sure if S or A+. LO set is fucking amazing for sure but I'm probably the only one who likes the Scarf variant and the phys def one is pretty much "almost cool". Then there's that SR weakness that gets annoying, which kinda asks for team support. Yveltal is something that is better at first glance than it probably actually is.

Yay more of you completely ignoring the most important aspects of a mon. You're stubbornly focusing on a single aspect of a mon and then completely ignoring the rest which is incorrect, in this case it's ignoring its amazing defensive typing and its role as a stallbreaker. Steels nerf makes ghost/dark much harder to stop so these key resistances that yveltal give are much more important, not to mention that unlike most attackers, shit like blobs/lugiass/gira don't threaten it in the slightest thanks to the combination of obscenely powerful dark pulse + taunts. What exactly about yveltal is better at first glance than it actually is? The fact that it can run a pretty successful roost/toxic/taunt/foul play set? The fact that non blobs/resists have hell safely switching innto it without taking a massive hit by dark pulse? The fact that despite your love for mons having a good speed tier (120+) that it's unrealistic and that base 99 speed is still fantastic? What about it is so underwhelming?

I would criticize your ekiller post but I feel hack already adressed that.

 

[Ascension]

Not sure if anyone has brought up Aegislash yet. It feels practically undisputed as the premier counter to Xerneas, and although it could be argued that it serves few other roles in ubers, it serves as a excellent backup check to Mewtwo and Lugia as well, especially with toxic. I'd recommend to any new player looking for a way to counter Xerneas use Aegislash first. In terms of a viability ranking however, it probably would seem a little lower than Scizor. Scizor seems a little easier to just slap on a team because it only has one weakness and can perform slightly more roles than Aegislash performs (scouting, backup Arceus check, possible sweeper). But for the prime purpose of countering Xerneas, I just dont see anything beating Aegislash.

 

[kingmidas]

Not sure if anyone has brought up Aegislash yet. It feels practically undisputed as the premier counter to Xerneas, and although it could be argued that it serves few other roles in ubers, it serves as a excellent backup check to Mewtwo and Lugia as well, especially with toxic. I'd recommend to any new player looking for a way to counter Xerneas use Aegislash first. In terms of a viability ranking however, it probably would seem a little lower than Scizor. Scizor seems a little easier to just slap on a team because it only has one weakness and can perform slightly more roles than Aegislash performs (scouting, backup Arceus check, possible sweeper). But for the prime purpose of countering Xerneas, I just dont see anything beating Aegislash.

Scizor can't sweep in ubers, and has no way of messing with its counters bar u-turn, unlike toxic and headmash from aegislash

 

[Haruno]

Scizor can't sweep in ubers, and has no way of messing with its counters bar u-turn, unlike toxic and headmash from aegislash

scizor learns toxic, and also has uturn for scouting potential which is something aegis wish it could do.

 

[MMII]

Haruno:

-I'm not getting your point about Kyogre. All I was basically saying with that post is that Kyogre may no longer define full team archetypes but its still an amazing and diverse mon that can offer other utility beyond Rain. (which can still be nifty)
-MegaGar was pretty much an afterthought for the sets that aren't Geo as they aren't too tricky to trap. You are right in that you can kinda sorta play around them cause Xern is a boss which is why I favor S rank. (its just that being Mega Gar weak is huge, lol, so I could understand A+)
-I didn't talk about that stuff for Ygod cause it was assumed (that little bit I mentioned about LO). Basically, my gripes with it is that the phys def set is good but that SR weakness becomes pretty noticeable with it as it can be unreliable at times for the mons you want it to stop. I like Scarf but I'm like the only one, lol. I'd probably stick it in A+ cause its sorta shallowish but I could see S cause it can run other sets. (just of debatable effectiveness)

Scarfers aren't exactly as good at revenge killing common threats as they used to be. In fact, most Scarfers have gotten worse this gen, with only Kyogre and Zekrom (and Xerneas ) remaining as the really good ones, and not even they can handle top offensive threats such as opposing EKiller, Mega Blaziken, Geo Xerneas (I know you hate it but there's no denying it's not extremely threatening!) and even the occasional RP Groudon. All of these sweepers have either a limited set of checks, no defensive counters, defensive checks that are substantially worse in this metagame, or some combination of the three. And none of them care about how fast your Scarfer is - what good is that nice Spout or Bolt Strike if you never get the chance to use it? Having a Pokemon that can provide glue vs these threats and more with very strong priority AND threaten a counter-sweep at any time AND still be able to punch big holes on the enemy team is what makes Extremekiller such an excellent glue Pokemon. It doesn't necessarily have to sweep whole teams to be useful.

You're overestimating a lot of these potential checks to EKiller. Landorus-T is a freaking terrible check and I don't get why people rely on it to stop EKiller since it easily 2HKOes after a boost and Lando can't do anything back aside from Toxic since it can't phaze. Physically Defensive Kyogre is still taking 60-70% from +2 ESpeed and can only phaze or have a 30% chance to win with Scald. Same with Ho-Oh, only it automatically fails if SR is up. Groudon is only a one-time check, maybe 2. Skarmory is easy to take advantage of since it can't take special attacks at all and doesn't do a lot of damage. Most old checks (Giratinas, Terrak, Ferro, Forry) are not terribly useful this metagame outside of specific niches. Heck, some Pokemon are running specialized sets (would you ever use Phys Def Yveltal if EKiller wasn't around) just to check this thing. It is harder to "stack" EKiller checks this generation while still covering all of your team bases since there are much fewer of them.

And as Hack said, one of the biggest strengths of EKiller is its ability to come in at any point in the game and wreck things. Yeah, so maybe busting it out on Turn 5 isn't the best idea, but waiting until Turn 50 to use it isn't necessarily a must either. For example, all those other Pokemon you mentioned that could take an unboosted hit are Xerneas checks, and Xerneas would certainly appreciate Aegislash taking 60% from an unboosted EKiller Earthquake, or the foe letting EKiller set up as it gets Toxiced and then crying as they lose 2-3 Pokemon before it succumbs because now they can't burn it. And as Hack also said, EKiller is one of those things that forces plays due to how threatening it is, so bringing it out as mid-game support/holepunching can be pretty deadly.

Also I agree with the points made by Anachronism.

Ekiller isn't much of a check to any of those besides Mega Blaze (which I already conceded lol), he can just pick off really weakened ones (+ needs to win speed tie for ekiller). Compared to the Darkrai/Mewtwo/etc that can be easily revenge killed by a Scarf mon because they are slower while ekiller can just pick off ones that have lost half of their HP. It's a nice bonus, sure, but it's nothing that you would rely on unless all else failed. (which, besides Blaze, there are plenty enough of viable mons that check those setup sweepers) You can't really call it a glue for that when it's not enough to be a reliable check, I'd call that utility.

Hide

252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 152 Def Xerneas: 144-172 (36.6 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 121-144 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'm not overestimating any of those checks, lol. I said they could all switch in and force out if needed. Phys def kyogre can phaze/shoot for burns, Ho-Oh will burn (unless super shit luck), mega sciz/skarmer can Toxic + Roost ez, Donner can phaze/go for plume, Lando can use superpower/toxic+intimidate (and eplate EQ takes a decent 55% chunk, this one's a stretch, though, sure), bulky arc formes can tank and burn. Obviously, they aren't fool proof but that wasn't the point. I was responding to hack's point about being unspecific concerning the bulkier metagame so I gave a short list of mons that you will see a couple of on a team together that can serve as a stop to boosted Arceus. The point was that the metagame is not favorable to Ekiller, wasn't counting counters.

Kinda already talked about it in the last paragraph but the point was that teams are naturally resistant to Ekiller because unboosted isn't that threatening (to put it in perspective and save me trouble pulling out a list of calcs, LO Ekiller is only as strong as an adament itemless Groudon, except with recoil and a 80 BP stab as opposed to 100) and it won't be boosting for free. (and then needs to still get through the checks mentioned above) Obviously, the examples I listed require the opponent to be halfway competent (not sacking a crucial mon when you have other checks). The whole point of this argument is to refute the claim that ekiller is now an exceptionally good setup sweeper, I'm not trying to paint it as a GeoXern. (can't do jack boosted, easy to stop once boosted, only worthwhile for that one time it boosts)

That said, it still falls short in many of the other reqs for S rank. (opportunity cost, minimal defensive capability, little role diversity)

 

[Ascension]

Scizor can't sweep in ubers, and has no way of messing with its counters bar u-turn, unlike toxic and headmash from aegislash

When talking strictly in terms of viability, according to the criteria from the OP, Scizor would either be a B+ or A- in my book. Aegislash however would probably only get a B-. Does this make Scizor "better"? No, because if you need something to destroy Xerneas, and you are willing to mitigate the weaknesses that Aegislash brings with proper synergy and support, then look no further. But if you are simply looking for a pokemon who can serve as a reliable Xerneas check probably 85% of the time (depending on the possibility that someone decides to put HP fire on Xern), but doesnt require as much support or team changing to make it work, while simultaneously filling more jobs like scouting, then Scizor is the superior choice. When it comes to sweeping, 75 speed and 150 attack seem good enough to work with after a swords dance and solid priority move, and could function as your "back up sweeper" for something much scarier like Arceus. The point I'm trying to make is that Aegislash is extremely specialized for it's primary role in ubers. Scizor can basically use a very similar set (U turn, Bullet Punch, Protect, Toxic with lefties) while also possibly filling other roles when you aren't facing Xerneas. That for most players, would feel like less of a wasted team slot. Throw that in with the ease of incorporating Scizor onto your team successfully as opposed to the slightly increased difficulty of implementing Aegislash on your team and you simply have a more viable pokemon.

 

[orch]

Adding the fact that Scizor also gets Knock off, Pursuit, and Defog to support the team further. It's one of best utility pokemon that simultaneously checks Xern. Also, other swell thing about Scizor is that it's usable for teams that require momentum.

Scizor should be somewhere between B- to A.

 

[blitzlefan]

Yeah I personally think Scizor deserves around A- rank. It's exceptional as a check to Xerneas (Bullet Punch is around 65-75% iirc), can function as a check to Arceus-Normal with Superpower (though it only does about half) and it's not a ginormous momentum killer like Aegislash is in my opinion, due to U-turn. Priority definitely helps to clean things up late game, and though it's not the bulkiest of mons, it has some nice defensive stats with some excellent support options.

It's wrecked by Ho-Oh though ;_;

 

[Hack]

That said, it still falls short in many of the other reqs for S rank. (opportunity cost, minimal defensive capability, little role diversity)

I'll just respond to this real quick

Opportunity cost- a big argument in my first post about E-killer in this thread should cover this.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ty-ranking-thread.3496305/page-2#post-5107818 for anyone interested.

Minimal defensive capability- The revenge killing capability (which I consider both offensive and defensive) cannot be understated. If you mean minimal defensive capability by virtue of its typing and lack of Recover when compared to other Arceus-Formes (or any mon for that matter) then I couldn't care less. Its role is fulfilled and that it can't switch in (a flaw) is migrated by its substantial strengths as the criteria words it.

Little role diversity- Then the criteria for S-rank certainly has to be rewritten. I don't give two shits about role diversity as long as the role said mon van fulfill with utmost perfection.

I know this debate won't get much further between us, it's very clear that I'm biased towards S-rank and you are not. It is therefore probably time for other people to have their say and stand in this.

 

[Jimmyftw]

Not at all, my point is simply that I feel you over-emphasize Support Arceus with Defog as the alternative to Extremekiller Arceus, as if it were the only way to justify using other Arceus formes and they substantially lack utility beyond Defog. Although the introduction of Defog as a major part of this metagame has added an opportunity cost that was not present in the past generation, there was already another teambuilding opportunity cost in how effectively Arceus can glue teams together by virtue of its excellent movepool, solid, balanced stats and its ability to be any single type. Even without using Defog, Arceus formes claim some of the hands down best checks/counters to some prominent metagame threats, some of which have very few good checks outside of Arceus formes. It cannot be denied that, as Hack has explained, Extremekiller Arceus has significant utility as an emergency check against mons and a revenge killer for weakened threats, but more defensive Arceus formes have the ability to comfortably switch into major threats and check them repeatedly. As the viability ranking is based on the ease with which a Pokemon fits onto a team, forgoing the massive potential for glue/checks/support to patch up a team that an Arceus forme has for a sweeper (even if it is arguably the best sweeper) certainly has a significant opportunity cost with limitations for teambuilding. This is not to downplay its sweeping capability or general utility in any way, however.

I would also be quite hesitant to use two (certainly never more) of Ho-Oh, Lugia and Yveltal in a team. Yveltal and something like Thundurus-I could still be alright, since neither really depends on the absence of SR, but Ho-Oh and Lugia are immensely crippled by SR and having another Pokemon that is hampered by it, as well as sharing multliple weaknesses, puts a lot of strain on the team to cover said weaknesses and successfully Defog repeatedly.

I said that Arceus forms don't necessarily need to carry Defog... I agree with you that some of Arceus-Normal's opportunity cost stem from non-defog Arceus such as the SD Groundceus or Grassceus without defog etc. But I was commenting on the specific case where Arceus-Normal's so called "opportunity cost" stem from defog using support Arceus forms as I have already covered the other case in my previous post:

Opportunity cost is define as the best value forgone. For example, the opportunity cost of playing video game is not getting homework done. But it doesn't make sense to say that the opportunity cost of doing homework is not playing video game.

Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that the opportunity cost of using Arceus-Normal is not being able to use other Arceus forms as Arceus-Normal holds greater values.

If we are to say that Arceus-Normal has opportunity cost in not being able to run non-defog Arceus form, we might as well say that Arceus-Normal has opportunity cost in not running another completely different Pokemon that also provide synergy to team. Arceus forms are regarded as the best defog users so it's natural for people to think: "Oh if I used Ekiller, I can't use the best best defogger," I argue that this wasn't the case since you don't necessarily need defog if you're not weak to hazards.

 

[effyouzion]

Arc normal is def S-rank. He's a huge threat to any offensive team and the best revenge sweeper (as Hack put it) in the game. He doesn't just revenge kill, he sets up and sweeps with priority that you can't outspeed. Just the threat of Arceus being normal can make a choice Kyogre's ice beam a liability.

 

[Magcargo]

Arc normal is def S-rank. He's a huge threat to any offensive team and the best revenge sweeper (as Hack put it) in the game. He doesn't just revenge kill, he sets up and sweeps with priority that you can't outspeed. Just the threat of Arceus being normal can make a choice Kyogre's ice beam a liability.

This isn't a very good argument. You can make this point to literally ANY pokemon. Here are a couple of examples:

Mega Scizor is def S-rank. He's a huge threat to any offensive team and the best revenge sweeper in the game. He doesn't just revenge kill, he sets up and sweeps with priority that you can't outspeed. Just the threat of Mega Scizor can make a choice Kyogre's ice beam a liability.

Mega Lucario is def S-rank. He's a huge threat to any offensive team and the best revenge sweeper in the game. He doesn't just revenge kill, he sets up and sweeps with priority that you can't outspeed. Just the threat of Mega Lucario can make a choice Kyogre's ice beam a liability.

I'm not against Arceus-N being S-Rank, but you need to make your argument much more specific so it doesn't apply to several other Pokemon.

 

[ogasian]

This isn't a very good argument. You can make this point to literally ANY pokemon. Here are a couple of examples:


I'm not against Arceus-N being S-Rank, but you need to make your argument much more specific so it doesn't apply to several other Pokemon.

His post was specific enough...you vastly overrate the abilities of Mega Scizor and Mega Lucario. They do not pressure the opposing team in the same way Extreme Killer Arceus-Normal does. They lack the raw power, bulk, and speed that Arceus-Normal posesses. The matter of fact is many things are able to stomach priority from those two Pokemon even at +2. Unboosted, their priority is depressingly weak. Scarfers easily put an end to both Pokemon, whereas Arceus-Normal has the power to OHKO many scarfers while being able to live almost any hit and retaliate with a coverage move.

In regards to Arceus-Normal's rank, I find myself in agreement with Hack. It is unique in the way that it literally has only ONE set worth using yet retains its versatility. It functions as a revenge killer, a sweeper, and at the same time is capable of surving powerful hits such as Yveltal's Dark Pulse and a Scarfed Surf from Kyogre. While the metagame has gotten bulkier overall (the rise of support Arceus Formes in particular) the decreased usage of it's checks and counters (namely Arceus-Fighting, Giratina Formes, Arceus-Ghost, Scarfed Dialga, Forretress, etc) have greatly aided Extreme Killer Arceus-Normal.

 

[Manaphy]

Minimal defensive capability- The revenge killing capability (which I consider both offensive and defensive) cannot be understated. If you mean minimal defensive capability by virtue of its typing and lack of Recover when compared to other Arceus-Formes (or any mon for that matter) then I couldn't care less. Its role is fulfilled and that it can't switch in (a flaw) is migrated by its substantial strengths as the criteria words it.

Little role diversity- Then the criteria for S-rank certainly has to be rewritten. I don't give two shits about role diversity as long as the role said mon van fulfill with utmost perfection.

I think you're mistaking a viability list (how easily does this mon fit on a team) vs a threat list (how threatening is this mon).

For this I'd say Arceus-Normal doesn't fit all the criteria for an S-rank for a viability list. Extremespeed should be considered more for utility than defense, I mean it's not like you're gonna be OHKOing Mega Blaziken anytime soon. Defensively, you have a piss poor typing. And while opportunity cost can be a somewhat poor argument, it holds true here on a viability list.

Now if you're talking a threat list, I agree with you for the most part. If you don't agree with the current requirements that's fine but you should be directing your arguments at that.

 

[Anachronism]

I think that the requirements for S-rank are being said somewhat incorrectly interpreted.

I think too much emphasis is being placed on the need to have multiple viable sets that are either offensive or defensive. I think that the point the criteria is trying to make is that the poke should have more than just offensive OR defensive sets, but rather it should have the ability to perform offensive or defensive roles throughout the game. Arceus-N can undoubtedly do this even with
just one set, while stuff like Blaziken will have trouble providing much defensive utility. The same holds true for Lugia on the other end. What sets the S-ranks apart from the rest is that they hit like trucks but are not glass cannons either.

Regarding Kyogre: yes, loss of permarain means it is less impactful than before, but it was arguably in a league of its own before and now it is just one of many top threats. Just because it is worse in a vacuum than it was before does not mean it should be demoted below S. As has been mentioned before, Ferrothorn and Lati@s have fallen out of favor this generation for various reasons, which is a huge boon to Kyogre.

I also don't think it matters if a poke has one or a few decent counters. The question is whether it can or can't easily sweep the vast majority of the tier given reasonable setup time. Xerneas destroys all but a few pokes. That's good enough for me.

The need for minimal support is also an important aspect that seems to have been forgotten by some. Yes, Ho-oh is a great pokemon, but Defog management is not quite as easy as it is made out to be, especially since many hazard layers also tend to carry status moves, which necessitates clerics on a team looking to reliably Defog for the entire game. These types of considerations all must be weighed in to the potential of Ho-oh, as it is undeniably crippled with Stealth Rock in play.

continuing on with my personal list...
A+
Mega-Gengar - Despite a healthy number of resistances, Mega-Gengar is not very good defensively. On the other hand, Shadow Tag allows it to support well-made teams and check a large number of threats in the process. Taunt or Substitute allow it to easily dispatch any pink blobs that may be wandering around, and its stabs along with Focus Blast allow it to put an end to many Psychic, Fairy, and Steel types as well as the occasional Rock Arceus or Ghost type (although they are immune to Shadow Tag). Destiny Bond can even allow it to kill just about anything you find threatening at the moment. Gengar's immunity to Extremespeed can also allow it to deal the death blow to weakened Swords Dance Arceus. Unfortunately, the single turn that Gengar needs to evolve is often enough to spell doom. Pursuit has become rather uncommon in the metagame but a properly supported Blissey team would be smart to include a Pursuit Mega-Scizor to prevent Mega-Gengar abuse. Much like the Mewtwo forms, the need for a mega stone is a significant opportunity cost and its general frailty prevent it from completely sweeping teams clean, but Mega-Gengar's ability to surgically remove the few checks to the fearsome sweepers existing in the Uber metagame make it an extremely dangerous pokemon indeed.

Palkia - Due to an unfortunate series of circumstances, Palkia has become invaluable as one of the premier Kyogre checks in the metagame. While Palkia itself hasn't really gained anything of note, the introduction of Assault Vest has given even more tremendous bulk if desired while still bluffing a Choice set. The new Fairy types prevent it from spamming Dragon attacks as it once did, but Xerneas is outsped and can't eat two Surfs from pretty much any set while Fairy Arceus remains uncommon and a generally inferior Arceus form. The loss of permanent rain reduces the effectiveness of his other STAB, but a reduction in Blissey and Ferrothorn usage has alleviated the need to rely on rain-boosted Surfs to push through damage. Choice Scarf has fallen out of favor, but Specs Palkia is still quite potent, although being locked into either STAB move is riskier. Lum Berry, Assault Vest, Haban Berry, and Chesto-Rest are all viable options to maintain a good amount of surprise value while bluffing a choice set. Palkia has the typing and stats to make it comparable to S-rank threats, but it is always let down by its lack of good recovery or setup moves and need for weather control for Fire Blast/Thunder. This is may be my most controversial choice so far but I think it isn't unwarranted to place Palkia so highly considering how well it fills the role of Kyogre check while still being an offensive powerhouse.

 

[Jimmyftw]

Nominating Aegislash for B-Rank.

Aegislash possesses amazing stats both offensively and defensive as with its ability Stance Change, it is essentially a Deoxy-N and Deoxy-D combine stat-wise. King Shield allows it to check a limited amount of things and works really well in conjunction with Toxic. In fact, Aegislash is one of, if not the best Toxic spreader commonly seen in the Uber metagame. One of Aegislash's main niches is providing a solid answer to the dangerous Xerneas as Xerneas cannot hope to sweep when an Aegislash is present and healthy. Aegislash can also act as a shaky check to Deoxy-A, Mewtwo forms, Palkia, Arceus forms and various other. Its access to priority Shadow Sneak although not as strong as Yveltal's Sucker Punch or Ekiller's Extreme Speed, is still useful in the many times your opponent hangs on with a silver of health and also useful for Deoxy-A and Mewtwo forms. Aegislash can run either physical moves, special ones or a combination of both, which contributes to its versatility. It does not fear paralysis as that will only power up its Gyro Ball and is immune to Toxic. It has an excellent defensive typing that is also decent offensively. Did I mention it can also run Head Smash to surprise Ho-oh?

However, not all is up for Aegislash. Aegislash's low damage output in Uber's standard lets it be set-up bait for various dangerous threats such as Ho-oh and Blaziken. It also really hates being burn. Moreover, the prevalence of Earthquake makes Aegislash sad. Nevertheless, although it is not without its flaws, it stands as a solid B-Rank Pokemon.

 

[effyouzion]

This isn't a very good argument. You can make this point to literally ANY pokemon. Here are a couple of examples:


I'm not against Arceus-N being S-Rank, but you need to make your argument much more specific so it doesn't apply to several other Pokemon.

If you think those 2 are on the same level as ekiller, there's no point in a discussion because you haven't played ubers.

 

[Magcargo]

If you think those 2 are on the same level as ekiller, there's no point in a discussion because you haven't played ubers.

I do not think that Mega Scizor or Mega Lucario are on the same level of sweeping as Ekiller. I am simply stating that your argument in moving Arceus-N to S-Rank is flawed because it isn't specific to one Pokemon.

 

[effyouzion]

I do not think that Mega Scizor or Mega Lucario are on the same level of sweeping as Ekiller. I am simply stating that your argument in moving Arceus-N to S-Rank is flawed because it isn't specific to one Pokemon.

Show me a replay where Scizor or Lucario sweep a team with their priority. It doesn't happen. That argument applies to ekiller only when it comes to ubers.

 

[MMII]

I think that the requirements for S-rank are being said somewhat incorrectly interpreted.

I think too much emphasis is being placed on the need to have multiple viable sets that are either offensive or defensive. I think that the point the criteria is trying to make is that the poke should have more than just offensive OR defensive sets, but rather it should have the ability to perform offensive or defensive roles throughout the game. Arceus-N can undoubtedly do this even with
just one set, while stuff like Blaziken will have trouble providing much defensive utility. The same holds true for Lugia on the other end. What sets the S-ranks apart from the rest is that they hit like trucks but are not glass cannons either.

The point is that the more roles you excel in, the more likely the Pokemon will be able to fit onto teams. (brought it up in a tl;dr earlier in the thread) Arceus-N is just a sweeper that has good bulk for setting up and a nifty priority utility, but you aren't counting on it for things beyond that. (it's not a solid switch-in to anything, the best it can do is trade once and try to counter-sweep) That's to specialized for S rank, imo.

 

[effyouzion]

The point is that the more roles you excel in, the more likely the Pokemon will be able to fit onto teams. (brought it up in a tl;dr earlier in the thread) Arceus-N is just a sweeper that has good bulk for setting up and a nifty priority utility, but you aren't counting on it for things beyond that. (it's not a solid switch-in to anything, the best it can do is trade once and try to counter-sweep) That's to specialized for S rank, imo.

Priority is something virtually every team (stall excluded) needs though. I see mega Gengar as A+ because he's really good at what he does, but his role isn't something that would benefit a majority of teams. He works best when you have a team that plays to his strengths. Arceus can be thrown onto any semi-offensive team without a second thought. Not being used in stall is his only downfall, but if you look at the OU thread, mega Venusaur is S-rank for his defensive abilities and he doesn't exactly get used in offensive teams. I think fitting mostly into one team archetype (offense or defense) is fine for s-rank.

 

[MMII]

Obviously this is more teambuilding philosophy, but I wouldn't say every team needs priority. Also, Ekiller isn't the only one to offer that.

Edit: yeah our teambuilding is vastly different

 

[effyouzion]

Obviously this is more teambuilding philosophy, but I wouldn't say every team needs priority. Also, Ekiller isn't the only one to offer that.

If you don't have strong priority, you're going to need something else to revenge kill like a scarfer. And scarfers can still be picked off by something like Yveltal's sucker punch. I just feel like ekiller is the best at the role of revenge killing as well as doubling as a sweeper and he defines the metagame. I always need multiple checks for ekiller, but I can get away with 1 for Kyogre (AV Palkia does fine in that sense).

 

[cfdu1202]

I would go so far as to argue that, unless it is redefined with lower standards, no Pokemon is worthy of S-rank in this generation.

I think this is really true, I mean, last gen we had Kyogre and Arceus-Ghost, the former being one of the most useful pokemon in the metagame, the sheer power of choice sets, the bulky spdef set which checked a lot of special attackers, or the support provided to a team was worthy of S-rank, while the latter was a spinblocker, late-game sweeper all in one, that made him S-rank.

In gen 6, the rain nerf affected Kyogre's amount of support provided, for example scizor/forretress/ferrothorn's x4 weakness to fire isn't mitigated now, and sweepers like Kingra or Kabutops aren't viable now. While choiced sets are still really good, Kyogre isn't 'the pokemon that we must put in any team that is not using sun' anymore. For me Kyogre is A+.

Arceus-Ghost lost his spinblocking niche and isn't as useful anymore, and considering the popularity of Ho-oh and Yveltal, considering that Lati@s isn't used anymore, I think Arceus-Ghost is B+ (or maybe A-, not sure of this, as steel lost its resistance to ghost).

Yveltal is really versatile and is powerful, and gets near(?) flawless coverage between dark/flying/fighting. Depending on his sets, he can also check some of the most proeminent threats in the metagame. However, the SR weakness, the unability to brute force through some walls, prevents him being S-rank. A+ imo

How not to talk about Ho-Oh in this meta, Ho-Oh is one of the most dominant force right now, but it still has the huge SR weakness. And no, defog isn't enough tho prevent SR. Still, if there's a pokemon in S-rank, Ho-Oh comes close, as he checks a shitload of threats in this meta thanks to his great stats (bulky specially and hitting hard physically), forcing some pokemon to use a rock-type attack just for him. Instant recovery is also really nice. A+(/S)

And I disagree with Arceus-N being S-rank. Note that I won't talk about Wallceus because it's plain bad, use Hippowdon instead. The will-o-wisp buff really crippled Arceus, since every Giratinas and other Arceuses are using it. That forces him to use Lum Berry as an item. That is problematic, as he only has a base 120 attack (which is ok at best) and moves at 80 base power (this is low). Not only you're not OHKO'ing most Ubers that invest in HP, you can be crippled by a status or take a powerful attack, which can be painful despite Arceus's bulk.
Unlike what some of us may think, you need a free turn in order to setup, because, you're not switching in any reasonably powerful attack, such as, say, Palkia's Spacial Rend due to your bad typing.
Chances are, if you manage to pull up a sweep with Arceus, you could have done it with another pokemon as well.
It's not all dark for Arceus though, as extremespeed's priority is still useful to pick up some weakened threats, but you're not going to revenge a 70% health Mewtwo.
For me Arceus-Normal in definitely not S, it's A or mayyyybeee A+.

Now on Groudon. That is a hard pokemon to rank. On one hand, losing eternal sunlight is a huge nerf to Groudon, on the other hand, he still sweeps like a truck. Still the sun helps to weaken Kyogre's power, and makes Ho-Oh what he is. The Rock Polish set is amazing now, using the moveset of RP/EQ/SE/Fire Punch (you don't need Dragon claw anymore), and you can actually attack directly for a huge amount of damage, and setting up later. The support set didn't change much, as he still checks the most powerful physical threats.
What holds him back is that his old checks are getting better or are used more (Lugia, Hippowdon, Arceus-Water), as well as the popularity of Yveltal and the buff to will-o-wisp. He doesn't shape the metagame as he did before. A (at least A-).

Xerneas can be checked too easily imo, but requires specific pokemons such as Ho-Oh, Spdef Kyogre, Scizor, Aegislash...The thing is that they check all sets from Xerneas, unlike for example Kyogre. Also thanks to the team preview any competent player will preserve his Xerneas counter (although this argument is also true for the opponent, just weaken the xerneas counter and 6-0). The scarf set I've never used myself, but it seems quite good. For the moment, A.

I'm still not sure about Zekrom. Ok, he's powerful and all, decently bulky as well, but it's a pain to bring him into battle due to his lack of resistances (good luck bringing him in Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire), and a team with Groudon makes you sad, now that spamming Dragon-type attacks is much riskier. One of the few that can revenge MMX (need this weakened if he has a defense boost though) and MMY, Ho-Oh in sun (this is huge, but again, sun means Groudon), and one of the few dragon that forces Xerneas to use moonblast instead of geomancy due to the sheer power of Bolt Strike. B+, not sure

I'm really dissapointed with Dialga. Most of the time he just set up SR, Draco Meteor something and dies. Also he cannot do much to the defog users. Idk why but I had much more success using him last gen. I guess it's just me, a lot of people will disagree but I'd put him somewhere in B.

Palkia is still unpredictable, I don't count the number of Xerneas setting up with Geomancy after i just used Spacial Rend, only to be met with a Hydro Pump in the face. For the moment it's one of the best check to Kyogre, and his speed is even more valuable than ever, with Xerneas and Yveltal having 99 base speed. It's really a solid pokemon, so I'd put him in A.

MMX is really amazing, but I'd prefer using ClassicTwo instead of MMY. MMY still cannot take any special attack if he's not at +1, and he hits not as hard as ClassicTwo. Overall it's A for Mewtwo.

More to come later, maybe