Theorymon Sessions

[ryan]

#freeabsol

I wouldn't go as far as to say that Golurk would greatly decrease in usage. Yeah, Absol can hit it for a great amount of damage, but remember as well that Absol is incredibly frail and would never want to switch into a Golurk. That pretty much means if you are looking to trap Golurk, you have to let something die or use something with a U-turn that would be slower than Golurk (hint: there aren't very many). Otherwise, your Absol could be knocked out fast.

I would also love to see how pivot Musharna would work out in this meta with Absol in it. The premise of the set is to Paralyze would-be counters and then Baton Pass out to avoid Pursuit. In general, it is a great Pokemon for this meta thanks to its bulk and the ability it has to spread paralysis. The presence of Absol wouldn't really hinder such a set at all.

I would imagine Jynx would decrease a bit in usage. Once again, Absol shouldn't switch into it unless predicting a Psychic/Psyshocl (and even then, it's a bit of a stretch). You would also have to worry about mine games between Sucker Punch and Pursuit, very much like it has to with Skuntank now.

I would also start running Jolly Sawk again to prepare for the occasional Jolly Absol. This would be annoying, but what can you do?

Anyways, overall, I think Absol could fit in well in the metagame. It would definitely see plenty of usage. I don't think it would break the metagame, but it would be really cool.

 

[saucemonkey1]

I'd like to get the ball rolling again with a few more Theorymon ideas I had in store. First off:

What if Banette got Prankter?

I know that this was done just recently with Haunter, but Banette has pretty much everything Haunter does without the speed and Ground type weakness. Banette has a plethora of support moves to use to its advantage, such as Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Cotton Guard, Pain Split and more. It would, in my opinion, be far more reliable than a Prankster Haunter would simply because it could survive a hit and be able to utilize its various support moves to its advantage, but what do you all think?

Next up is:

What if Hypno got Shadow Tag?

Now, at this point in time I'm not sure how broken this would be. If I had to say one way or the other, I would wager that it wouldn't be only based on the fact that Hypno's stats aren't all that stellar compared to, say, Gothitelle. Prankster Hypno, with his massive Special Defense would be able to come in on a Special Attacker and proceed to use its vast movepool while the other Pokemon attempts to do some kind of damage. Hypno even has Baton Pass, along with a long list of boosting moves such as: Nasty Plot, Calm Mind and Belly Drum. He also has Wish, so Recovery is an option, but on occasion I'm sure you'd be tempted to give that up for one of Hypno's many other supporting moves. If you aren't into that, then you could just turn Hypno into a Psuedo Wobbuffett with Counter and/or Mirror Coat, but without Wobbuffet's massive 190 HP, I'm not sure if Hypno would be able to utilize the moves as well as Wobbuffet could.

Last up we have one that some of you might find pointless:

What if Sunflora got Fire Blast/Flamethrower?

Now hear me out on this one. Only time you should ever use Sunflora is in the sun right? Even then you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would use it over, say, Victreebel. But what if it was able to launch sun boosted Fire Blasts at whatever it encountered? Some calcs here:

• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Articuno (+SpDef): 70% - 82% (270 - 318 HP). Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 80HP/0SpDef Leftovers Braviary (Neutral): 77% - 90% (279 - 328 HP). Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Storm Drain Cradily (Neutral): 54% - 64% (206 - 244 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Light Metal Metang (Neutral): 108% - 128% (352 - 416 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

Keep in mind that this is Chlorophyll Sunflora with a Timid Nature, and it's still destroying all of its counters with a sun boosted Fire Blast. I'll leave the judging up to you folks, however.

 

[Punchshroom]

Actually no, Prankster Banette's Trick Room wouldn't be any different than it is now, since it now has -6 priority from its initial -7. The only change being you can set up TR before you get phazed by a slower opponent.

 

[saucemonkey1]

Actually no, Prankster Banette's Trick Room wouldn't be any different than it is now, since it now has -6 priority from its initial -7. The only change being you can set up TR before you get phazed by a slower opponent.

Well poop. Didn't even realize that Trick Room had -7 Priority, but that does make sense I suppose. Still, Banette has an amazing support movepool that it can use with Prankster, so the Trick Room issue isn't so huge.

Edited the OP so that Trick Room isn't mentioned.

 

[Axa]

Give a brief explanation of why this move / ability would logically be usable on said Pokemon. This does not mean "i think it would be cool lololol". This does mean knowing the context of the move / ability that you want to add (ie. Quiver Dance tends to be found on Bug-type Pokemon with wings etc) and not just slapping moves on just because of their competitive nature. The goal here is semi-realism and discussing what would happen if Pokemon x got move y, not "let's see if we can make Pokemon x broken!!".

No realistic reasons why Sunflora would ever get Fire Blast or Flamethrower.

I'm going to try something else:

What if Ninjask got Technician?

The big question of how useful more powerful Aerial Aces or Bug Bites are over a potential speed boost. As a frame of reference, Adamant 252 Attack Ninjask now 2HKOs Skuntank cleanly with either Bug Bite or Aerial Ace. Ninjask also gets access to a more powerful Faint Attack, which is notable for being able to 2HKO Golurk with an Expert Belt (as long as they don't switch into a Bug Bite).

 

[saucemonkey1]

No realistic reasons why Sunflora would ever get Fire Blast or Flamethrower.

Sunflora is a Sunflower. Figured that was pretty self explanatory. If Gastly can get the elemental punches, and Diglett/Dugtrio can learn Cut/Slash, I figured that a sunflower getting a fire type move wouldn't be so far fetched. Though if it really is that unrealistic I'll take it off.

 

[vyomov]

What if Floatzel got Technician?
This would be interesting. Floatzel could now use Technician Aqua Jet to hit harder than ever WITH priority. With blistering speed it could also become an effective Pursuit trapper. Mons like Frillish would reduce in number, while Electrode, being one of few that outspeeds will become more popular.

 

[Dell]

Yeah the Sunflora one is fine. I just so happen to be concerned about the Hypno suggestion, though.

What if Hypno got Shadow Tag?

Now, at this point in time I'm not sure how broken this would be. If I had to say one way or the other, I would wager that it wouldn't be only based on the fact that Hypno's stats aren't all that stellar compared to, say, Gothitelle. Prankster Hypno, with his massive Special Defense would be able to come in on a Special Attacker and proceed to use its vast movepool while the other Pokemon attempts to do some kind of damage. Hypno even has Baton Pass, along with a long list of boosting moves such as: Nasty Plot, Calm Mind and Belly Drum. He also has Wish, so Recovery is an option, but on occasion I'm sure you'd be tempted to give that up for one of Hypno's many other supporting moves. If you aren't into that, then you could just turn Hypno into a Psuedo Wobbuffett with Counter and/or Mirror Coat, but without Wobbuffet's massive 190 HP, I'm not sure if Hypno would be able to utilize the moves as well as Wobbuffet could.

Not sure if I would agree with this since Shadow Tag on its own is a pretty broken ability and we're technically not supposed to suggest extremely good abilities unless they're reasonable (or in this case if you're talking about Lampent or maybe Gothitelle, but even the latter could prove to be a controversial topic). Either way, it also seems quite overpowered for a Pokemon to have access to Shadow Tag while also having the ability to boost stats and Baton Pass into something that isn't threatened by the Pokemon that you're trapping. This buff also adds to the fact that Hypno's support movepool means that it can also find a lot of other ways of heavily abusing Shadow Tag since you can't counter them until it decides to kills the Pokemon that it so chooses to trap.

What if Sunflora got Fire Blast/Flamethrower?

Now hear me out on this one. Only time you should ever use Sunflora is in the sun right? Even then you'd be hard pressed to find someone who would use it over, say, Victreebel. But what if it was able to launch sun boosted Fire Blasts at whatever it encountered? Some calcs here:

• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Articuno (+SpDef): 70% - 82% (270 - 318 HP). Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 80HP/0SpDef Leftovers Braviary (Neutral): 77% - 90% (279 - 328 HP). Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock.
• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Storm Drain Cradily (Neutral): 54% - 64% (206 - 244 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
• 252SpAtk Life Orb Sunflora (Neutral) Fire Blast in Sun vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Light Metal Metang (Neutral): 108% - 128% (352 - 416 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

Keep in mind that this is Chlorophyll Sunflora with a Timid Nature, and it's still destroying all of its counters with a sun boosted Fire Blast. I'll leave the judging up to you folks, however.

While this would seem cool, it admittedly has a lot harder of a time to find good initiation of the move itself because of it being so laughably slow and not being very strong in general compared to other Sun sweepers. Sunflora's measly 30 base Speed means that most other Grass-types naturally outspeed it anyways even with a lot of investment. I also think that it would still face competition within the likes of Exeggutor or Victreebel as a Sun sweeper since even with Sun up it is outsped by generally every relevant Scarf user in the tier while that is generally less of the case within the two I've mentioned. It's also worth noting that being forced to run a Timid nature could also cause you to miss out on various KOs, such as among the many you've listed.

 

[Konata Test]

What if Musharna got Recover instead of Moonlight?

Moonlight's problem is it's Low PP and is affected by the weather, and rain is somewhat common due to Ludicolo and pals in the NU meta, it can be hard to use moonlight. With Recover, Musharna can last longer, and can stick around for the match.

Both CM and pivot appreciate reliable recovery, and increased PP. CM Musharna now also has an easier time against CM wars.

Due to pivot usually switching in and taking on hits, it usually uses the recovery move often, and with 8 PP, you can easily run out, but with Recover, you got a decent amount of PP, and allows you to switch in more times than you could. It also allows you to check LO swanna to an extent.

 

[NeverUsedTier]

What if Musharna got Recover instead of Moonlight?

Moonlight's problem is it's Low PP and is affected by the weather, and rain is somewhat common due to Ludicolo and pals in the NU meta, it can be hard to use moonlight. With Recover, Musharna can last longer, and can stick around for the match.

Both CM and pivot appreciate reliable recovery, and increased PP. CM Musharna now also has an easier time against CM wars.

Due to pivot usually switching in and taking on hits, it usually uses the recovery move often, and with 8 PP, you can easily run out, but with Recover, you got a decent amount of PP, and allows you to switch in more times than you could. It also allows you to check LO swanna to an extent.

i have used musharna pivot so many times, it is an amazing pivot. there is almost no way you are going to moonlight 8 times, i never have at least. weather doesnt really matter because if you are in against a weather team you are better off dealing damage or baton passing/switching anyways. it might make a slight difference in some certain scenarios, mostly for CM sets though.

 

[Konata Test]

i have used musharna pivot so many times, it is an amazing pivot. there is almost no way you are going to moonlight 8 times, i never have at least. weather doesnt really matter because if you are in against a weather team you are better off dealing damage or baton passing/switching anyways. it might make a slight difference in some certain scenarios, mostly for CM sets though.

Yes, Recover is going to make CM wars so much negotiable for Musharna, i find that in CM wars, moonlight runs out faster than i thought.

 

[vyomov]

What if GameFreak released a Technician type ability for Floatzel with the threshold being extended to 75 BP?
The effect would be stupendous. Grass types would shudder as Floatzel used the new ability boosted Ice Fang to OHKO. Aqua Jet would make it a great sweeper with the boost, as would the multiple other options in his arsenal.

 

[skylight]

Hm yeah that'd be pretty interesting. Samurott might find less use, at least physically, since Floatzel has all this extra power (I'd compare it to Carracosta, but they're pretty different whereas Samurott and Floatzel can do similar things, minus the BU/SD difference). It also has higher attack than the otter, and also has Bulk Up too (and can Switcheroo Flame Orb etc). I think it could work really well in a rain team and really screw over a lot of the metagame more so than it can now. It already has awesome points in being able to outspeed Jynx and OHKO it reliably (since it's limited to Megamiss), something that Samurott can't do. In general I think this would be really awesome, especially in the current meta (maybe a little too awesome given that I'm struggling to think of things that shrug this off?)

 

[Explorer]

What if GameFreak released a Technician type ability for Floatzel with the threshold being extended to 75 BP?
The effect would be stupendous. Grass types would shudder as Floatzel used the new ability boosted Ice Fang to OHKO. Aqua Jet would make it a great sweeper with the boost, as would the multiple other options in his arsenal.

Bite and Hidden Power would both also get a boost, too. This would make it harder for Psychic-types to combat Floatzel, and Haunter can't beat it unless it is Scarfed and has Giga Drain or Energy Ball, and Aqua Jet will already do a lot of damage without any further boosts.

Here is another question to get everybody thinking theoretically (alliteration): what if Scolipede learned Hone Claws?

Many of its moves have close-to-perfect accuracy. Would this make it preferable to Swords Dance since Megahorn, Aqua Tail, and Rock Slide (and Iron Tail if you care) get an accuracy boost?

 

[vyomov]

What if Scolipede learned Hone Claws?
Not too sure really, as to what that would do over Swords Dance. Agreed, it improves accuracy but Swords Dance makes it a much more dangerous sweeper because of the extra attack boost.
Another question:
What if Cosmic Power was changed to boost by 2 stages instead of one?
The problem with Cosmic Power is that it takes too much time and Swords Dance outspeeds it in terms of boost and kills.
With 2 stages, it would be a better move. Mons like Solrock and Lunatone would be WAY more popular because it would enable them to wall most mons in NU after one Cosmic Power: after two, it's pretty much over.
I think a good set would be this:
Lunatone@Leftovers
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 Spd
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Cosmic Power
This set would be AMAZING. All it has to do is Cosmic twice(not difficult considering it is hard to hit after first), then CM until low HP and then OHKO.
The set would be nigh difficult to beat one on one. Water types would be more popular, as would dark types just to prevent them from setting up.

 

[Axa]

Bite and Hidden Power would both also get a boost, too. This would make it harder for Psychic-types to combat Floatzel, and Haunter can't beat it unless it is Scarfed and has Giga Drain or Energy Ball, and Aqua Jet will already do a lot of damage without any further boosts.

Floatzel doesn't learn Bite.

Throwing out another question as well: What if Luxray gained Agility and/or Motor Drive?

It's hard these days to justify using Luxray over Zebstrika - while the lion has better bulk and stronger attacking stats, the zebra has much better speed and access to Overheat. A way of boosting its Speed could prove to be fruitful to Luxray.

 

[vyomov]

Even so, Luxray doesn't cut it without Intimidate or Guts so WHY exactly would he use Motor Drive? He simply doesn't have the attack power without Guts to sweep and has no durability without Intimidate to set up.
I think a Luxray-oriented Swords Dance(maybe King's Call) might be a better idea(swords dance doesn't work thanks to flavor). With King's Call, it could run a really g set like this:
Luxray@Life Orb
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 SpD/252 Atk/4 HP
- King's Call
- Fire Fang
- Wild Charge
- Ice Fang
After one King's Call boost, it would be unstoppable. With Intimidate it has enough Physical bulk to take a hit, while with 252 SpD EVs it isn't horrible on the Special side either. Fire Fang, Wild Charge and Ice Fang offer the best possible coverage.
On a Side note, only the Luxray and the Manectric line should get this(Lion, King of the Jungle, so doesn't make sense for somebody else to get it.)

 

[Explorer]

What if Cosmic Power was changed to boost by 2 stages instead of one?
The problem with Cosmic Power is that it takes too much time and Swords Dance outspeeds it in terms of boost and kills.
With 2 stages, it would be a better move. Mons like Solrock and Lunatone would be WAY more popular because it would enable them to wall most mons in NU after one Cosmic Power: after two, it's pretty much over.
I think a good set would be this:
Lunatone@Leftovers
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 Spd
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Calm Mind
- Cosmic Power
This set would be AMAZING. All it has to do is Cosmic twice(not difficult considering it is hard to hit after first), then CM until low HP and then OHKO.
The set would be nigh difficult to beat one on one. Water types would be more popular, as would dark types just to prevent them from setting up.

The problem with this set is that Lunatone has no recovery outside of Leftovers, and so it can worn down with poison or burn, or be put to sleep and phazed out. Otherwise I like where this is going, especially since I hardly ever see Lunatone.

As for Luxray, I like both ideas in Motor Drive and King's Call, and I could see both coming to a reality at once being very potent. The main set would be the one provided by vyomov. At +2 Attack and +1 Speed, Luxray would become very dangerous and give Zebstrika a run for its money. Due to the great coverage, Pokemon such as Torterra can no longer counter it. Outside of Choice Scarfers, Regirock would likely be the best check, as it could tank Luxray's hits and hit it with Earthquake.

What if Torterra got Solid Rock?

Solid Rock Torterra would by no means be a game-changer, but it would make it much easier for Torterra to survive one Ice Beam/Ice Punch and retaliate with the appropriate move. As a result, Pokemon such as Sawk and Glalie would struggle a bit to defeat Torterra. This would certainly help with the defensive sets, but I still feel the offensive sets would prefer Overgrow, in order to give Wood Hammer a significant boost.

What if Crustle was allowed in NU?

I don't see much use of Crustle in RU because of a combination of Steelix and Qwilfish doing a lot of the hazard-setting, alongside Pokemon such as Scolipede. However, few Pokemon in NU have both Stealth Rock and Spikes, so Crustle would be a great lead in NU, giving players an alternative to standard Golem. Crustle also makes for a dangerous set-up sweeper with Shell Smash, and it has Stone Edge, Earthquake, and X-Scissor as its main attacking moves. Other than STAB X-Scissor, I question what advantages Crustle has over Golem as a lead besides lacking weaknesses to Grass and Fighting.

 

[JCM.]

What if Bibarel would get Swords Dance?

If Bibarel got Swords Dance, it would be able to get to +4 in ONE TURN. With moves such as Waterfall, Double-Edge, Return and Quick Attack, Bibarel would become a fearsome sweeper, Quick Attack being able to OHKO Rotom-S after Rocks and Return 2HKO'ing even the bulkiest variants of Alomomola.

 

[watashi]

What if Explosion had its old mechanics back?

For those of you who haven't played the old generations, Explosion used to half the opponent's defense in the damage calcuations, making it a devistating attack even if the opponent resisted it. A lot of Pokemon would be enjoy having a boosted Explosion to put a dent into any wall. These include Golem, Garbodor, Lickilicky, Skuntank, Camerupt, Exeggutor, Regirock, Muk, Drifblim, or even Haunter. Walls would have to be more wary of random things blowing up on them. The first two Pokemon I listed would probably benefit the most from this because they could set up quick hazards and then take something out with them.

 

[Leafshield]

What if Explosion had its old mechanics back?

For those of you who haven't played the old generations, Explosion used to half the opponent's defense in the damage calcuations, making it a devistating attack even if the opponent resisted it. A lot of Pokemon would be enjoy having a boosted Explosion to put a dent into any wall. These include Golem, Garbodor, Lickilicky, Skuntank, Camerupt, Exeggutor, Regirock, Muk, Drifblim, or even Haunter. Walls would have to be more wary of random things blowing up on them. The first two Pokemon I listed would probably benefit the most from this because they could set up quick hazards and then take something out with them.

Does Aftermath stack with Explosion? If so, I could see Garbodor foregoing TSpikes for Explosion and Skuntank foregoing either Crunch or Poison Jab for boom.

 

[ryan]

It doesn't. Aftermath only triggers upon being fainted with a contact move.

 

[vyomov]

An Explosion based theory... What if pokemon with Sturdy survived Explosion with 1HP?(The user of explosion)
This would mean these mons could explode twice and thus would be much more popular, I can already see Golem as a suicide lead with SR and double Explosion LOL.

 

[pipasonze]

An Explosion based theory... What if pokemon with Sturdy survived Explosion with 1HP?(The user of explosion)
This would mean these mons could explode twice and thus would be much more popular, I can already see Golem as a suicide lead with SR and double Explosion LOL.

If sturdy worked on explosion, golem could run a set with custap berry and explode twice.

 

[Explorer]

If sturdy worked on explosion, golem could run a set with custap berry and explode twice.

But wouldn't Golem have to outspeed the opposing lead for this to work, based on Sturdy's mechanics? Or am I misunderstanding this?