Topic of the Week — Mark III (Week 16- SUBSTITUTE)

Bughouse

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To counter that Audiosurfer, I'm not sure how Fake Out can clearly be the best priority move in Doubles when it becomes useless after its one and only opportunity for use, often forcing you to waste turns switching something out and back in again so Fake Out can reveal its potential once more.

Obviously it's a great move and I use it plenty, as does everyone, but I'm not ready to crown it the best priority move in Doubles just yet.
 

Electrolyte

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I agree with srk1214 that Fake Out might be one of the most influential priority moves in Doubles, but is definitely not the best priority move. (which may have been what everyone else was trying to say.)

Even though Fake Out only lasts one turn and only the first turn its user is called out, its effects can be astounding. The ability to stun one Pokemon of choice while also dealing minute yet existent damage is perfect for creating absurdly favorable temporary matchups, which is the key to playing Fake Out successfully. A whole Pokemon can be taken out in that time, or even two, depending on the situation. Fake Out's effects on a match are often drastic, but much less so on the upper ladder since people are more prepared for it.

The reason I wouldn't say that it's the best priority move is because in my opinion its utility is too dependent on the partner of the user as opposed to the user itself, similar to moves such as Helping Hand or Follow Me. Whether Fake Out "accomplishes" anything is dependent on whether you can create a favorable matchup for your partner, and from then on out, all of the work is being hoisted in their shoulders. Fake Out rarely accomplishes much by itself; on the contrary, it's really just a very efficient and useful support tool, but the real hoisting is being done by the partner.

Another interesting thing to consider is that Fake Out is in no way a one-way street. In performing Fake Out, a Pokemon substitutes a could-be potentially dangerous attack for the ability to deal a smidgen of damage and stun an opponent of choice. Fake Out locks the user and the target into a temporary immovable trance, as the neither the user nor the target can accomplish anything else for that turn. The only reason why it's worth it is because 1. the user gets to choose which target to stun and 2. the target also receives a little bit of damage. Fake Out is only ever worth it when doing nothing else would be more beneficial.


Few other singular priority moves are as influential as Fake Out, but I think some other priority attacks such as ExtremeSpeed or Sucker Punch could be just as useful depending on the situation.


ALSO WATRE SHRUIKEN GUYS!!
 
Water Shuriken had so much potential. Too bad it has like 15 BP and only Greninja gets it, meaning its only use is to change it back to Water typing.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Water Shuriken had so much potential. Too bad it has like 15 BP and only Greninja gets it, meaning its only use is to change it back to Water typing.
Well, technically, it has 45 BP on average, since it's a hit 2-5 move. The more pressing issue is the fact that a) greninja is too fast to really want prio and b) greninja is really shitty in doubles.

As to the fake out debate, I have to agree that it's not the best move in doubles. There are simply too many times where Fake Out does not buy the time you need in order to maneuver a favorable matchup. It may seem really powerful when you're playing against the fake out—my pokemon won't be able to do anything!—and indeed it's great for stopping Scarf Pokemon from brutalizing your skymin or zard y or whatever the fuck. However, there are times where I have to enter into my opponent's shoes and realize that even with fake out, I will not be getting enough advantage for it to matter, and once I do this, it becomes a lot easier to relax and play around. I'd probably rather have a Gale Wings Brave Bird most of the time I have a fake out


P.S. Everyone hates on Scizor, but it's really fucking good and I don't know how it could possibly be outclassed by bisharp. It is nearly impossible to one-shot, whereas Bisharp is quite easy to one-shot. Its priority is much more consistent, and of a typing which allows it to snipe Fairies. It can actually fit SD on its sets, whereas Bisharp cannot, so while Bisharp can threaten intimidate users a bit better because it doesn't need the turn to SD, Scizor can set up even when the opponent doesn't carry intimidate. I'm not saying that Bisharp is worse, either, because it's not, but they're different, and Scizor is amazing and haters gonna lose to the Pwnemon Special
 

Darkmalice

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One of the big issues with Fake Out is that if the target of Fake Out switches out, the flinch is wasted, and you only get a 40 base power move. You would have been better off using another move. This is one reason why Fake Out is less effective in higher ladder play, where switches are more common.

By extension this applies to Sucker Punch too, except with 0 damage achieved. Sorry Bisharp.

Of course, the Fake Out / priority user could predict a switch and act accordingly. For example, Mega Kangaskhan could use Follow-Up Punch on the switch-in for a free +2 boost, or Bisharp could use Knock Off.
 

Pocket

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Fake Out goes before Rage Powder / Follow Me, which is very significant. For instance, in this SPL game between Nollan and Braverius, Nollan would have been in a really good position if his Kangaskhan had Fake Out at turn 6 to finish off Zach's weakened Kangaskhan (but tbf, Protect on Nollan's Kanga did prevent Zach's Kangaskhan from receiving +2 PuP boosts). It also forces a lot of defensive plays, such as forcing the opponent to switch out or Protect, all of which can be exploited. Fake Out is particularly potent mid- late-game, where only few viable switch-ins are left. I also like how Fake Out can stop certain annoying choice users like Scarf Lando-T from shitting up on me, allowing for a successful double-target.

I think the drastic increase in valid priority users this gen has made Quick Guard an even greater utility tool (not to mention it can be used consecutively without fail). QG Terrakion / Keldeo are particularly great for cock-blocking Kanga's Fake Outs, Bisharp's Sucker Punches, etc

Also priority Brave Bird keeps Flying-type on the map x_x. Just like Fake Out, Talonflame is most potent mid- late-game when the opposing team is softened up for Talonflame to bomb threats. Flying-type is simply put a killer offensive typing that pairs well with many offensive partners (basically anything that enjoys Grass- Fighting- non-Heatran Fire-types, and Latios gone). This CB priority BB is so powerful that it manages to O-2HKO Intimidate users x_x; With max Spe, it's faster than Terrakion even with Adamant Nature, so RIP QUICK GUARD.
 
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Electrolyte

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Alright, it seems as if discussion has pretty much died down now. I won't be highlighting any particular posts (even though there were many good ones!) but the general discussion regarding priority's many forms, users, and uses was really fruitful. Nice job everyone!

Now it's time for a new topic.

Topic of the Week #15:
Status Effects

Images borrowed from Bulbapedia

With the recent removal of Sleep Clause, status has become even more useful than before. Sleep can now be freely spread, bringing some previously unviable Pokemon such as Jumpluff into the spotlight. Other forms of priority have always been common- Thundurus-I's Thunder Wave has always been quite annoying, while SwagPlay has always been regarded as a cheap and unfair strategy. Some status effects see more use than others, while some make up the framework for entire teams in Doubles.

Questions / Topics to think about while posting:
~What makes status effects so useful?
~What are some common forms of status effects? What roles do they play?
~What are some common users of status effects?
~How do you utilize / counter status effects?
~How do status effects affect metagame / teambuilding / playstyle strategies?
~What are the advantages / disadvantages of using different status moves?

Have fun posting, guys!
 
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wow where r all da posts

Though not all status effects are useful, the ones that are useful are extremely common and are good to have on any team.

A biggie is Will-O-Wisp. This move is a large factor in how special attackers are favored over physical attackers in doubles, as the viability of a lot of mons like Gourgeist, Rotom-W, and Trevenant is partially because of their access to this move. Other Pokemon like Kangaskhan, Lando-T, and Garchomp are checked by this move and have to play around it. Fire types have a niche in being immune to burn, and some can even take advantage of it such as Flash Fire Heatran.

Another important status would be Paralysis. Thunder Wave is useful as Speed Control, to slow down extremely fast attackers such as Shaymin-Sky or Weather sweepers like Ludicolo to prevent them from running through a team. The best users of this move would be Prankster users (Thundurus, Meowstic, Klefki), and Bulky Pokemon (Cresselia, Togekiss), so they can either stop an opponent mon's sweep before going down or take a hit and slow them down. Electric types have a niche in being immune to Paralysis, so Pokemon Thundurus-Therian become perfect switch ins for annoying mons like Togekiss.

Sleep is probably the most important status effect. Because of the recent removal of sleep clause, all of an opponent's Pokemon can be put to sleep. Since sleep can last for a number of turns, asleep Pokemon are highly vulnerable (unless they have sleep talk, which is only found on certain sleep talk users such as Talonflame). Thus, ways of countering sleep, such as a fast Taunt, Safety Goggles, and grass types which are immune to powder moves).
 
wondering about the lack of posts as well lol :x

anyway, i would say sleep is very important in terms of needing to account for sleeping strategies in team design, and teams should be trying to counter it, but with sap sipper, safety goggles, overcoat, and grass types to handle spore and absolutely abysmal accuracy for hypnosis/grasswhistle/sing/etc., sleep can be end up being a shaky strategy to use at times. i think any team that doesn't try to counter it at all and a team that relies on it too heavily for its own strategy will both have lots of trouble at times.

i think that since thunder wave is the most common form of paralysis, ground types gain some utility as well for paralysis absorption. to an extent, lightningrod/volt absorb/etc. pokemon have some great utility as well for not only absorbing the status, but also gaining a boost. thundurus-t and lanturn are probably the only really viable users of it, though, as zebstrika is fairly awful without the boost from lightning rod, and who the hell is using raichu/seaking/plusle? manectric probably wants to mega evolve as quick as he can, but he can probably switch into a thunder wave, gain a boost, and start steamrolling stuff on the next round. i think marowak still has some utility, even if he doesn't gain any boost (it probably wouldn't be considered a useful one anyway), as lightningrod can absorb the status without switching out your skymin/weather sweeper/etc. at all.
another point about paralysis is that

i would agree that will-o-wisp is the biggest status move. it got a bump in accuracy this gen, and it has an incredible distribution. it gives a great utility to fire-type physical sweepers/bulky attackers by being immune to it, and i would say that part of conkeldurr's appeal is in how he can handle burns (as well as other status, but he doesn't particularly care about the speed drop from paralysis, and toxic isn't as useful in doubles compared to singles anyway)

i think taunts, especially prankster/priority taunts are very useful for stopping all sorts of things from setting up. in doubles where field effects like gravity, tailwind, weather, trick room, and screens are fairly common, taunt is great for completely shutting down a team's strategy before it can get going. mental herb is a great item for certain setup pokemon specifically to bypass being taunted and start setting up.
 

Electrolyte

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Thank you Ultimathunder and dr00 for keeping this discussion going!


Dr00's point about Taunt is a great one. Taunt is extremely useful in Doubles because of its ability to block the multitudes of support moves in Doubles and minimize the threat of speed control and attack control. Priority Taunt makes Thundurus-I a great support Pokemon because of its ability to prevent status attacks.



I agree with the statement that WoW is the best status move. This is simply because it is the best form if stat control among all of the status effects. It is noticeably better than Intimidate because it is more crippling and lasts indefinitely. It also deals steady damage. Intimidate may be spread, but doesn't have the utility WoW does because it doesn't cripple opponents as badly. You might appreciate the spread of Intimidate but you might also not, especially in cases where you face a physical and special attacker at once and only need to target one opponent.

Thunder Wave is great as well, but as speed control, it is outclassed by things like Trick Room / Tailwind (which is evident on most Cress teams where people opt for TR instead of TWave) Trick Room is better Speed control because it's spread and will still stay in effect when the target switches out. It affects all Pokemon at once, which is more important than single targeting because speed control requires quantity, not quality, unlike attack control.
 
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I agree with the statement that WoW is the best status move. This is simply because it is the best form if stat control among all of the status effects. It is noticeably better than Intimidate because it is more crippling and lasts indefinitely. It also deals steady damage. Intimidate may be spread, but doesn't have the utility WoW does because it doesn't cripple opponents as badly. You might appreciate the spread of Intimidate but you might also not, especially in cases where you face a physical and special attacker at once.
i was thinking about this again last night how will-o-wisp is not only powerful, but it's immediate, reliable, and permanent, unlike other statuses.
sleep has a timer, and poison takes a while to build up potency, paralysis immediately cuts speed, but it only 'works' 25% of the time after that to give you free turns (not that that's insignificant). you brought up another good point about thunder wave with other moves (tailwind/trick room) being a lot more potent for speed control.

another thing about intimidate vs wow is that bisharp, who loves to be intimidated and get that attack boost, is everywhere.
 

BLOOD TOTEM

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Avoiding status is something really important for a lot of team which is why I think Lum Berry Ferrothorn is a really good set at the moment.


Anal Intrusion (Ferrothorn) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Knock Off / Leech Seed / Thunder Wave
- Protect
lazy EVs but idrc make ur own :<

Lum Ferrothorn is great against a lot of support options. Most notably Rotom-W which it can easily handle by using its Lum Berry to absorb a burn before striking back with a Power Miss Whip. Ferrothorn also handles support options like Togekiss, which is often used alongside status spreaders, with Gyro Ball. It also brings a handy little Trick Room check to the table thanks to its low base Speed.
 

Darkmalice

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Electrolyte said:
Thunder Wave is great as well, but as speed control, it is outclassed by things like Trick Room / Tailwind (which is evident on most Cress teams where people opt for TR instead of TWave) Trick Room is better Speed control because it's spread and will still stay in effect when the target switches out. It affects all Pokemon at once, which is more important than single targeting because speed control requires quantity, not quality, unlike attack control.
Thunder Wave functions differently form Tailwind and TR in the sense that it's only affects one Pokemon. It should be used to cripple a specific Pokemon that would otherwise be a large threat to a team due to its speed, in other words, letting your Pokemon sweep a specific Pokemon instead of letting slow Pokemon sweep against an other team. It works better at this than Tailwind / TR because it's permanent and has a severe speed drop. It's worse at providing speed support over many Pokemon though due to the obvious affects-one-Pokemon only dilemma. It's uncommon for a Pokemon to successfully paralyse more than 2 Pokemon on the same team. So as opposed to Tailwind, Thunder Wave works better on teams that already have many fast or very fast Pokemon but are prone to Choice Scarf users sans Landorus-T, or incredibly fast Pokemon like Shaymin-S, and Thunder Wave is there to take down those Pokemon (as opposed to average or fast Pokemon with Tailwind). And ironically, one of those fast Pokemon that benefits from Thunder Wave is Thundurus-I.

Also you can't forget the 25% chance of full paralysis which can take its toll in longer matches.

Adding on to Blood Totem's post, Ferrothorn is good at taking most status even without Lum Berry, as it is immune to sleep and Gyro Ball benefits from paralysis - its immune to Poison too, but Toxic is never seen outside of gimmicks. However, it needs the Lum Berry to not be crippled by burn. And as Blood Totem said, with Lum Berry, it is an excellent Rotom-W check. The main two obstacles are only minor - Power Whip's accuracy, and Ferrothorn switching into WIll-O-Wisp (meaning it has to take Will-O-Wisp the next turn in order to use Power Whip).

Another another good way to avoid status is Lum Berry + Follow Me Jirachi or Togekiss. Redirect status away from your teammate. It can work with Rage Powder till, but it won't redirect Spore and Sleep Powder. The most common Rage Powder user, Amoonguss, can switch into those moves for the team, though it can't threaten the Spore / Sleep Powder user, but this is still pretty useful if Amoonguss can threaten the other opposing Pokemon.
 
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Mega Kangaskhan gets a lot of hate, but in my opinion standard Kangaskhan is easily stopped by burning + intimidating it since the standard set doesn't run protect. To combat the insane number of Will-O-Wisps that are aimed at Kanga, I've started using subsitute in place of Fake Out. Substitute on Kangaskhan protects it from status, and because your opp will almost always predict Fake Out first turn, you are free to set up a sub.

For the 4th moveslot I've added Crunch as an alternative to PuP because I love to pair this set with Amoonguss to set up a sub, but neither can touch ghost types. Ice Punch is a great move for kanga because it hits common Kanga checks like Landorus-T and Garchomp, plus you get the double chance to freeze which often becomes a free KO, a free PuP, a free sub, or sometimes all 3.


Kangaskhan (F) @ Kangaskhanite
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Ice Punch
- Return
- Power-Up Punch / Crunch

Using Kangaskhan in a way that not only combats status, but deals it out is a fantastic option that fits on almost any team. I've also tried a Facade Kangaskhan before (140bp + STAB + PB) but in practice I found that Substitute is a much more useful and dependable option. Good teammates for this set are amoonguss and Terrakion/anything to deal with opposing Kangakhan.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Whenever I run multiple physical attackers on a team, I get nervous of Will-o-Wisp. Whenever I get nervous of Will-o-Wisp, I find myself running a safeguard user. Often I use this set (sorry nyttyn):

Klefki @ Leftovers
-Safeguard
-Swagger
-Thunder Wave
-Foul Play

I think, aside from being literally hitler, this set provides a great example of one of the best uses of status, and altogether most important things in Pokemon which the Japanese have known about for years but the Americans are just catching on to which is managing the RNG in your favor. This is the reason I believe sleep is not inherently broken: the RNG is in the favor of the sleeping Pokemon, since the sleep user has to always play as if the sleep is going to end on that turn, forcing them to be cautious, lest a poorly timed wake ruin their battle plan. On the other hand, this set forces the opponent to be the cautious one, which is often support far greater than any "legitimate" strategy. In addition, Klefki does offer reliable support in the form of being a good switch-in on many pokemon, dargons in particular but also lots of others thanks to its godly defensive typing, its ability to support your team's physical or fast attackers with prankster Safeguard, and the ability to turn landorus switching into your kanga to -1 it into an easy ohko with SafeSwag. However, when I use this set, I often don't end up using those "legitimate" support options as much as I do just thunder wave the FUCK out of EVERYTHING and then SWAGGER them to make me IMPOSSIBLE to fucking HIT. A good example of this set doing work can be found in lolk's drop an uber minitour, here. A good example of a poorly timed FP ruining a battle plan can be seen everywhere.

Largely due to what I just said, I agree with Darkmalice that Tailwind is in no way better speed control than Thunder Wave. Tailwind temporarily makes your pokemon faster than your opponents'; thunder wave permanently reduces any problem pokemon your opponent may have to absolutely laughable speeds. Tailwind would be better if its duration weren't fucking three turns, which can also be stalled out with protect. Tailwind has its advantages when you are trying to make a final push to beat your opponent's last couple of mons, but honestly that's all it can do: a final push. Early-game, Thunder Wave is by far the better option, since it can take entire Pokemon out of commission which rely on being fast, and of course, it can cause clutch full para. People build entire teams around tailwind and they really shouldn't, imo; tailwind is a suicide move. Given the choice between the two, I would always pick Thunder Wave on Pokemon that can run both like Togekiss, Latias, etc.

This is pretty intuitive, undebated stuff here so ill just run through it quickly: poison sucks always, will o wisp is great for neutering physical attackers and getting chip damage on pokemon that require leftovers or sitrus to fulfill their role, freeze is the status invented by satan, and sleep is pretty cool as a TR check and some other uses.
 
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Electrolyte

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Ok it's been a really long time... looks like there isn't much left to say here. Next topic! :]

Topic of the Week #16
Substitute


Substitute has all sorts of uses. From protecting against status to stalling the opposing Pokemon to giving your own Pokemon more breathing room, it can be used for a variety of strategies in Doubles.

Things to think about:
~What are some effective sets that utilize Substitute?
~What kind of sets rely on Substitute to function?
~What are some uses of Substitute?
~When is it worth the moveslot and when is it not?


I'll give this about a week. Happy posting, guys!
 
Just off the top of my head, Heatran, Terrakion, KyuB, Aegislash are prime Sub abusers. Many things can use it though, like Landorus to buy an extra round of damage, Togekiss can try and run it to increase its Pseudo bulk. Amoongus is cancerous behind one as well, as is something Trick Roomy like Chandelure.
 

Laga

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I don't think you can just make a list of Substitute users, because that kind of cuts the creative part of finding good sub users away from the picture. I think that using Substitute on Pokemon that don't carry Substitute that often is far better and carries more surprise factor (which is deadly if you can get a free sub through this).

I think that to find the most consistent sub users, you'd need to look for a few traits that should be considered when choosing wether or not sub is effective.

  • Good typing - by far the most important; if you aren't able to set up on numerous common Pokemon with or without Fake Out support, then there only really is the surprise factor, and you can't use Sub more than once. The most consistent overall typings for Sub users (the ones that single handedly wall a shitload of mons) are Steel / secondary or Ghost / secondary, but note that you can still find many other good typings or dual typings that can set up on specific threats / offensive typings. Example: Kyurem-B sets up on many Grass / Water-types.
  • Large Offensive pressure - there isn't really much of a point in using Substitute unless you can be a threat once behind one (this is also why I think Sub Amoonguss is pretty bad). This is why Pokemon such as Kyurem, Heatran, and Kingdra use Substitute fairly well.
  • No 4MSS - This goes sort of hand in hand with offensive pressure; the two attacking moves you will be using have to have decent to good coverage.



Mawile @ Mawilite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Sucker Punch
- Play Rough
- Protect

So like anyways this is easily my favorite Substitute user at the moment, and it works really really well against numerous bulky teams or frail HO teams.

things that make it good!
- Intimidate + Steel / Fairy sets up on Dark, Grass, Dark and Rock, especially physical attackers.
- Threatens a buttload of Pokemon offensively with great two-move coverage
- Sucker Punch more likely to land since sub forces attacks
- fuck amoonguss

I always like using Sub on everything, be prepared >:]
 
Sub Protect is very good, the only thing bad is that it takes up TWO of your 4 moves. A lot of the good users have been listed, but it can be anything that has a great impact with only 1 or two slots. Jumpluff and Amoonguss are unique Sub users in that they get the job done with a sleep-inducing move instead of dual STAB coverage.
Char-Y I have found to be quite a mediocre user of sub because it really wants 3 moves to beat more opponents fast, hates stalling out its sun with sub-protect antics and can't hold Lefties. Although you would think powerful fire-grass coverage with a resistance-driven typing and good speed/bulk is plenty for a sub user.
 
I can't describe to you how amazing it is to use a Substitute Thundurus set. After implementing this beast into my team, I managed to peak #8 on the ladder; it makes for a great lead when paired with Mega-Kangaskhan. This set is very unexpected and it really catches my opponent off guard, especially when Bisharp and MegaMom attempt to Sucker Punch you to death.



Thundurus @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 4 Spd / 252 HP / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt

I usually lead with Mega-Kangaskhan and Fake Out a potential threat to Thundurus to allow him to put up a Substitute. This benefits me because it allows me to spread more annoying T-Waves against the opponent for speed control and of course to get that occasional parahax. Not only that, Prankster allows Thundurus to use Substitute before getting attacked by moves such as Rock Slide and Ice Beam which would initially deal a significant amount of damage. He also can be a potential offensive threat with Max SpA and a Modest nature behind a Sub, given that Thunderbolt has great coverage. And if you're wondering why I don't carry HP Ice for Landorus-T and Garchomp, I already have members on my team who can easily take care of those two. The purpose of this set is mainly to increase the survivability of Thundurus for continued offensive support and speed control while disrupting most setups with the use of Prankster Taunt.

I absolute love this Thundurus set; I highly suggest you guys try it out. :)
 
This hasn't been an active thread for quite some time, but I'm going to comment on this anyway (and hopefully spark some sort of discussion =/).

Almost anything worth using can potentially use a Substitute set. It may not be optimal, but the possibility is there. Even things like Amoonguss can opt for Substitute over Protect in order to make Trick Room teams cry all that much harder. So I'm not going to bother posting sets (if ur dying to know some Sub users I use a lot as of lately include Chandelure, Kyurem-B, and Terrakion; I haven't actually been using it as much lately believe it or not).

Regardless, I personally thing a good few players overuse it to an extent (am looking at Laga). Not to say it isn't a great move, but you should at the least be considering whether Eruption is a better pick than Substitute on your Heatran for a given team rather than slapping it on mindlessly.

Still, why is Substitute so good? Its definitely not SubProtect + Lefties stalling (sorry youngjake), 12.5% recovery would hardly be worth it on its own.

One of the big reasons is because Substitute punishes switches incredibly flexibly. You don't have to bother guessing what will come in, you can just Sub up and use whatever move deals with the switch in more effectively (a common technique on Sub Garchomp, for instance). This makes Substitute a very "safe" move in a lot of situations, though in others it can be really risky (for instance if you have Sub Heatran in front of two threatening opponents such as Landorus-T and Conkeldurr, you will either have to switch out which tends to be a fairly risky play or properly use Protect as if you do not you'll be forced to switch or quite possibly be knocked out the following turn). Additionally, it expands the time you can stall allowing a partner to get rid of checks and counters (this is what I expect youngjake was getting at). This is probably what makes Heatran so annoying, as due to the fact it walls so many things and generally is countered by a mere Pokemon or two on the opposing team, luring out Landorus-T and then allowing a Rotom-W to beat it or force it back out is great for keeping the momentum in your favor (the fact it helps keep momentum going is why it is as Laga said overall more effective on offensively orientated Pokemon). And of course it blocks status moves, which has definitely become a larger factor since sleep clause is now gone, as blocking Spores is a great help to a lot of Pokemon. Overall I'd say the biggest reason Substitute is so useful is the fact it buys you time. Whether its more time to scout, more time to eliminate counters, or more time to attack things, an extra turn goes a long way in Doubles.

I'll also address mind games that occur around Substitute. I think most of us can agree that when something gets a Substitute up our first thought is to double target the given Substitute user and get rid of it before it causes trouble. This is where I'll agree with youngjake that SubProtect is a good combination. You could try double targeting the given Pokemon, but if the person across the table calls that correctly and Protects, you've just wasted a turn. At the same time if they Protect and you call that and double target the other Pokemon, they are in a world of hurt as you quite possibly pick up a KO and double targetting the Sub user the following turn is a relatively safe play. I think a big concept at the center of playing against/with Substitute is the tempo, or basically the use of Protect, as since using Protect repeatedly is very risky, the moment you opt to use Protect (or whether you correctly call when Protect) will be extremely important.

So how do you beat Substitute? There are several ways. Some are commonly used while others I myself have never seen in a legitimate match.

Infiltrator

While you probably don't need me to tell you what this does, for those who aren't aware Infiltrator will allow you to bypass Substitutes. This makes Jumpluff a unique sleep inducer for instance, as Substitute (and Safeguard) cannot block its Sleep Powders. Chandelure is probably the most popular offensive Infiltrator users, though Noivern (and Crobat though its not as effective by far) is another effective choice.

Damaging Moves That Aren't Blocked

Needless to say, I learned about this one the hard way when Biosci thrashed my SubTran with a Snarlkou on the ladder. Any moves like Snarl will function similar to Infiltrator, bypassing the Substitute and dealing damage directly. Solid moves that aren't blocked include Snarl, Hyper Voice, Bug Buzz, and Boomburst (this one lacks any solid users unfortunately; needs more Refrigerate Aurorus :>).

Taunt

Stop Substitute before it goes up. Pretty direct strategy, though given the opposition only needs one turn to get it up I'd say its not as effective overall. Regardless, Thundurus is one of the best choices here.

Encore

Imo one the best anti-Substitute options, and the combination of it with Mega Gengar is probably why I am not using Substitute as frequently nowadays. If you switch Encore in on a Sub user or they for some reason Sub up in your face, you can simply lock them into Substitute. They can potentially stall a turn with Protect though after that they will either switch out or risk staying in. What Encore essentially does it make Substitute backfire, as while its a method to hold your momentum, Encore will steal that momentum and put you in a pretty tough spot, as you are forced to switch out (assuming you have been hit by Encore) allowing the opposition to nail a switch in or just focus their energy on the partner Pokemon (who will then face the same problems if it tries to Protect). In general Encore is a great move since it limits the opponent's options, but we're not talking about Encore, so let's move on.

Snatch

This is a sly little trick I've never actually seen used, but I'm mentioning it anyway. Essentially Substitute is one of many moves Snatch can snatch (some other useful moves it steals being Wide Guard, Quick Guard, and Tailwind). This allows you to steal the Substitute that a Heatran, for instance, would try to set up. I'd definitely judge it as a gimmick, though if you disagree feel free to prove me wrong.

Roar (and Whirlwind)

While not very common, this move has a lot of application. It bypasses Substitute and Protect, which allows it to put a halt to a lot of strictly speaking "gimmicky" set up strategies. That's about all there is to it, really.

Perish Song

Perish Trapping or simply using Perish Song by itself can really cause trouble to Sub users, as when their turns are numbered, buying time isn't exactly a valid strategy.

tl;dr Substitute is rubbishawesome, but please use it thoughtfully rather than mindlessly :s
 
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