Topic of the Week mark II - #11: MAKE IT RAIN

[Laga]

Approved by Pocket
Since Audiosurfer has quit smogon forums, I am taking over Topic of the Week, and I am making a new thread so I can edit the title.


Since I am pretty sure everything (even some research) was covered in this totw, it is time to move on to a new one. I am amazed by how many people were involved in this discussion, so there are many points to give out this time! :D

3 points - youngjake93, Nollan, Electrolyte
2 points - Pwnemon, Darkmalice, Lasagne21, Branflakes325
1 point - BlankZero, lucariomaster2, Ultimathunder, Pocket, SomeoneStoleTheNameIWant, SpeedHoles, Mr. Blinky.

Here is the next Topic of the Week: MAKE IT RAIN

With the advent of a new generation, Game Freak saw it important to nerf the auto-weather setting abilities to the same as Rain Dance. While Rain teams were extremely popular in generation 5 due to the sheer power of all the swift swim rain sweepers that had both their speed and their Water STAB moves boosted. Now that GF has decided to nerf rain, how will this impact the new Doubles metagame? Is rain still a legitimate playstyle, or is Politoed just dead weight? Are the Swift Swim sweepers consistent enough to be able to do relevant damage with their weather put on a timer? These are good questions I suggest you try answering and discussing.

Happy posting =]

 

[youngjake93]

I think the biggest thing about Politoed is that it was actually really good with Sitrus Berry/Choice Specs/Scarf+infinite rain, but now you only get FIVE TURNS if you use an item. It just underachieves with only 5 turns of rain and you're basically relegating it to setup+death fodder if you take away its item.
Also, Mega Charizard Y+Mega Tyranitar+Mega Abomasnow set up weather wayyy better than Politoed and have ways to seriously hurt it.

I will try to find good ways to use it, but it has a lot more going against it this gen with mechanics and metagame changes.


Oh and my first attempt to make it work will be to deal with its biggest fault this gen: competing weathers. So I will obviously be using Terrakion, who wrecks all the other weather starters.

 

[Nollan]

Rain is still a viable option, but it has become significantly less popular for several reasons, the first and foremost of these being Mega Charizard Y. Thanks to the fact that Drought isn't activated until it Mega-Evolves, it gains a lot of momentum over rain, which is automatically activated on the switch in. The fact that a dedicated sun team can have both Ninetales and Charizard just makes things harder for Politoed to handle. Really, a simple 2 Pokemon sun core like Charizard Y and Chlorosaur can completely obliterate dedicated rain teams.

Furthermore, rain only lasts 5 turns, and this is a bigger problem for rain than any other weather (imo at least). This is because Politoed cannot stand out as a very large threat on its own, making rain fairly reliant on Swift Swimmers to make itself useful. MegaZard Y, Tyranitar (Mega or non-Mega), and Mega Abomasnow all stand out as dangerous attackers individually, meaning you don't need a Chlorophyll sweeper, Sand Rush sweeper, or Scarf Kyurem for them to be useful. The fact that rain relies on a sweeper means that rain needs to stay on the field if it plans to be successful, which is going to be a very difficult task.

Lastly, some of the metagame's top threats can easily handle common rain sweepers. Rotom-W, Breloom, Thundurus, and Shaymin-S all stand out as Pokemon who can really hold rain back with some support. Furthermore, Electric- and Grass-types in general have risen in popularity due to their respective buffs of paralysis immunity and Spore and Rage Powder immunity. Overall, these factors make it really difficult for rain to have success.

However, rain has proven itself a viable playstyle in this metagame when played with the proper support. While it is slightly old, Arcticblast's RainRoom Team did very well in the PreBank Doubles metagame, making use of Thunder Ampharos-Mega to deal heavy damage. I'd judge that rain is usable, but you have to build it carefully. There are a lot of checks and counters you will need to be prepared for, including Charizard, Abomasnow, Amoonguss, Rotom-W, and others. An example of being prepared for these things would be Arcticblast's use of Trevenant as an answer to Rotom-W and Talonflame as an answer to Grass-types.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Politoed isn't totally useless outsied of providing Rain. It has a decent support movepool with access to Helping Hand, Icy Wind, Encore and annoying moves like Scald. Drizzle provides solid support and opens up options like Thunder and Hurricane, Swift Swim Pokemon and boosts the power of Water-type moves.

An issue Politoed faces this generation is choosing an item. Sitrus Berry helps with longevity whilst Damp Rock ensures rain will be sticking around longer. I personally would be more lenient towards the use of Damp Rock to make Rain harder to stall out so that Pokemon like Kingdra and Ludicolo can cause more damage. The use of Rain Dance in conjunction with the Damp Rock could be interesting. Politoed can survive anything ZardY or TTar has to throw at it and then reset rain in there faces. This works particularly well if Politoed has a Pokemon like Terrakion out with it which can successfully OHKO TTar, MegaZard and Abomasnow.

I think Rain teams this generation need to run Politoed in all honesty. Pokemon like Tornadus or Thundurus can don the role of rainmaker thanks to Prankster Rain Dance. With some Swift Swimmers in tow the use of Rain Dance works similarly to Tailwind, potentially even better. Opponents will often play recklessly and lose there own weather setter if they do not expect Rain Dance making it easy to quickly turn the tables of a battle. Thundurus seems like the strongest contender for this role thanks to it's decent bulk and access to STAB Thunder and Prankster Thunder Wave.

Bulky Grass or Water-types like Trevenant or Jellicent are one of the biggest obstacles to rain and any rain team will have to be carefully built to be able to handle such threats. This is perhaps one of the reasons we've seen a decline in rain, it's become a lot harder to make as there are so many things you have to consider to build a successful team. Like Nollan mentioned, Arcticblast's use of Talonflame / Trevenant were excellent examples of how to bypass this issue somewhat.

 

[Pocket]

I really like youngjake's suggestion of Terrakion to deal with opposing weather summoners. Another anti-weather technique is Stealth Rock, which absolutely cripples Charizard and to a lesser extent Abomasnow. Tyranitar does not mind much, but rain teams usually fare relatively well against sand (esp since they don't pack back-up sandstorm summoners)

I also believe Mega Gengar is a large asset to rain teams, since it can prevent Charizard Y / Abomasnow / Tyranitar from switching, giving the rain team a quick and decisive monopoly of the weather. Pair Mega Gengar with the aforementioned Terrakion, etc, and you essentially got the game in the bag.

Rain teams almost always wants a back up Rain Dance user. Keeping Politoed alive taxes the rest of the team, and sometimes it's better off to just let it take the fall (esp if the weather control is won) rather than letting one of your other key win conditions take unnecessary damage. A bulky Rain Dancer like Cresselia or Aromatisse can work, especially in a Trick Room setting. A fast Rain Dance user like Crobat (Fake Out proof), Tornadus, and Thundurus are great though, because they can switch the weather back to Rain immediately after Charizard mega evolves and before it can start firing off sun-enhanced moves. A fast Rain inducer essentially nullifies the mega evolution's "weather advantage."

 

[Project_Mars]

The fact that weather abilities are no longer permanent is both a blessing and a curse to all weather teams, rain included. On the one hand it does weaken Politoed a bit but on the other hand it makes it just as viable to run a manual rain setter. What is actually interesting about the weather this generation is that you could actually use rain to counter other weathers, as opposed to how other weathers were used to counter rain. The fact that you could manually set the rain after charizard-y brings the sun and then hit him with a 100% accurate thunder does make it seem like a viable idea.

 

[BlankZero]

On the note of Tornadus as a Manual Rain setter:

It is viable to run Defiant Torn with Rain Dance due to its exceptional speed tier.

 

[Lasagne]

The rain nerf didn't make nearly as much of a splash in doubles as it did in singles, thanks to the fact that doubles games tend to take a much shorter time to complete than singles. 5 turns is often enough to pull off a sweep with something like kingdra, and it is quite easy to simply switch out and back in to reactivate the weather with politoed. Ludicolo, kingdra, Kabutops and omastar are all fairly effective swift swim sweepers that don't need a long period of rain to function effectively, and can quickly turn a game around in the space of 5 turns. You can even give your politoed a damp rock if you want the rain to last even longer, giving your sweepers plenty of time to drown out the opponents efforts. However, this means giving up an item slot for something like a sitrus berry or choice scarf. Like pocket said, a rain team will always want a backup rain setter. Good setters include tornadus, as you can either use prankster for a priority rain dance then spam hurricanes, or defiant if you want to go physical and provide a good way of dealing with intimidate users. Many rain teams are more specially orientated, so a powerful physical attacker in the form of tornadus is appreciated. Another rain setter that could be interesting is rotom-c. As possibly the most effective way of dealing with rotom-w, which can cause big problems for rain teams, rotom-c is a valued addition to any rain team.

I think the biggest nerf to rain wasn't the restricted amount of turns, but rather the indirect nerf of buffing every other weather starter. Every single weather starter that isn't politoed, hippowdon or uber got a mega evolution (though it was only zards mega evo that made it a weather starter). This is big, as it means not only are all of these Pokemon much stronger, abomasnow and ttar also get to set their weather twice without switching out, just by mega evolving. If you want to switch your politoed in on a ttar to get rain up, it can just mega evolve and get its sand back, and you're in deep waters. This is probably the main reason why manual rain setters are generally better. They can set up their weather as many times as they want without having to switch out, which is a big point in their favour. Politoed got zero buffs this Gen, while every other weather was buffed significantly. Therefore, they have eclipsed rain almost completely, and rain has gone from near the top to the bottom of the pile in the course of one generation.

 

[Skore]

In honor of this thread I decided to try my own Rain team - overall I found that rather than be the meta like it was in Gen 5, it's become the anti meta weather, disrupting sun and sand alike and giving weatherless teams something unexpected to deal with. Politoed as a stand alone pokemon still isn't a bad choice in doubles as it has a variety of sets it can run along with a lot of viable support options like Helping Hand, Icy Wind and Encore to name a few and even the defensive sets do decent damage with Scald/Surf when rain is up.

Mega-Evolution wasn't kind to Rain teams as far as inducing the weather goes, but depending on the needs of your team you have Blastoise, Gyarados, Ampharos AND Manectric to take advantage of the weather to increase their deadliness. It's sometimes baffling as to why the playstyle is seen to be dying out.

The nerf to Steel types also played a part in the drop in Rain's usefulness. Pokemon like Jirachi used to love Rain as it dampened their fire weakness only leaving them with ground and fighting, but with Ghost and Dark now neutral hits and not resists they have become an awful lot easier to muscle through and consequently making it harder to use them as defensive pivots.

Perhaps what's changed most about the rain game is that as the meta moves on, Rain Sweepers themselves are no longer as required and from my own experience I found myself playing more and more without the Rain Sweepers and more of a goodstuffs playstyle or a Trick Room with Rain tacked on was more effective than a pure "Put up Rain, Get Swift Swimmers, Spam Muddy Water and Thunder" that we saw a lot of last generation.

However, for as little as I see Rain these days - I see Hail even less.

Hide

Politoed @ Leftovers
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Encore
- Protect

Klefki @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Def / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Rain Dance

Blastoise @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Rain Dish
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Aura Sphere
- Water Pulse
- Dark Pulse
- Protect

Aromatisse @ Leftovers
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Aromatherapy
- Protect
- Moonblast

Thundurus-Therian (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Thunder
- Protect
- Sludge Bomb
- Taunt

Chandelure @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Heat Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Protect

The team evolved somewhat, as I found that dedicated Rain sweepers just weren't working for me, and I also needed something for when Rain inevitably ran out and I couldn't safely get Politoed back in.
Klefki and my 2 Trick Roomers provided speed control where necessary and screens for durability, Aromatisse kept people status and untauntable.
Thundurus absorbed Thunderbolts aimed at Toed and Blastoise while blasting away with Thunder and taunting would-be status abusers.
When Rain ran out or if Sun was up, I was able to play to Chandelure's strengths and Klefki was an awesome lure for thos fire moves to bosst Chandelures power.
Mega-Blastoise was actually my MVP most matches with his great single target power and great coverage moves.

 

[Lasagne]

though it was touched upon by skore, one Pokemon that could be useful on rain teams that hasn't seen any discussion yet is manectric. Most importantly, its mega form. Since mega manectric has intimidate, you can essentially choose when to use your intimidate to lower your opponents attacking power. Mega mane can also fire off very powerful, perfect accuracy thunders in the rain, and even act as a rain setter itself, though it can't hold damp rock. Regular manectric also has lightningrod, which can be very useful in certain situations, like taking a thunderbolt aimed at politoed and simply getting more powerful from it. When rain isn't up, overheat and flamethrower can both be used as very useful coverage moves, though manectric lacks good coverage outside of that due to the hidden power nerf. Another problem with using mega mamectric is the fact that it restricts you from using another mega Pokemon, such as mawile or Kangaskhan, both of which are very good, and big threats in the current doubles meta. When using mega mane, you can't use these other powerful Pokemon, which somewhat restricts your teambuilding.

 

[Darkmalice]

though it was touched upon by skore, one Pokemon that could be useful on rain teams that hasn't seen any discussion yet is manectric. Most importantly, its mega form. Since mega manectric has intimidate, you can essentially choose when to use your intimidate to lower your opponents attacking power. Mega mane can also fire off very powerful, perfect accuracy thunders in the rain, and even act as a rain setter itself, though it can't hold damp rock. Regular manectric also has lightningrod, which can be very useful in certain situations, like taking a thunderbolt aimed at politoed and simply getting more powerful from it. When rain isn't up, overheat and flamethrower can both be used as very useful coverage moves, though manectric lacks good coverage outside of that due to the hidden power nerf. Another problem with using mega mamectric is the fact that it restricts you from using another mega Pokemon, such as mawile or Kangaskhan, both of which are very good, and big threats in the current doubles meta. When using mega mane, you can't use these other powerful Pokemon, which somewhat restricts your teambuilding.

You also have the option of Volt Switch with Manetric so that you can quickly switch out to other rain abusers or scout for Ttar, MegaZard, or Abomasnow switch-ins. I would usually prefer Thundurus for this role, because it has Prankster Rain Dance and does not require a Mega Stone, but Mega Manetric does have the perks of Intimidate and Lighting Rod that you mentioned.

As Skore said, it can be used as an anti-weather (and so can Hail) similarly to using Sunny Day in 5th Gen. In fact, it can even be used to lock MegaZard Y into Solarbeam. Use a rain dance user that lures Zard into using Solarbeam. For example, Rain Dance Choice Scarf Politoed. Sets up rain like a normal Politoed, and can abuse speedy Hydro Pump for quick, large damage, whilst having Drizzle to counter-act opposing weather. And with Rain Dance, if you lead with it, whilst your opponent leads with Zard (most opponents on the ladder lead with their Charizard), you can use Rain Dance first turn. In the meanwhile, the opposing Zard will likely Mega Evolve and aim Solarbeam at Politoed, only to find that due to your faster Rain Dance, it is now a sitting duck. Make sure you pair lead Politoed with a Pokemon that resists Heat Wave but does not pose a OHKO threat to Zard - they will only encourage Zard to use Solarbeam instead of Heat Wave or Protect. A good example is Latios, who can use manual Rain Dance instead of Choice Scarf Politoed. This ally needs to either be able to 2HKO Zard at worse, or switched out first turn to a Pokemon that can OHKO Zard, so that you can capitalise on locking Zard into Solarbeam and remove it from the field, denying your opponent access to sunshine - you sadly won't be able to rely on Scarf Politoed as it will have to switch out after using Rain Dance. If your opponent has a Fake Out user, you will have to lead with a fast Quick Guard user or a Fake Out user of your own with Politoed, so that Politoed can't be Fake Outed when Charizard uses Solarbeam.

Note that smarter opponents may predict a Politoed switch on the first turn so they won't use Solarbeam, even though they won't expect Scarfed Rain Dance. You can of course do this with other Pokemon, but I chose Politoed because it provides the best anti-weather control and lures Zard into using Solarbeam.

 

[Nollan]

You also have the option of Volt Switch with Manetric so that you can quickly switch out to other rain abusers or scout for Ttar, MegaZard, or Abomasnow switch-ins. I would usually prefer Thundurus for this role, because it has Prankster Rain Dance and does not require a Mega Stone, but Mega Manetric does have the perks of Intimidate and Lighting Rod that you mentioned.

As Skore said, it can be used as an anti-weather (and so can Hail) similarly to using Sunny Day in 5th Gen. In fact, it can even be used to lock MegaZard Y into Solarbeam. Use a rain dance user that lures Zard into using Solarbeam. For example, Rain Dance Choice Scarf Politoed. Sets up rain like a normal Politoed, and can abuse speedy Hydro Pump for quick, large damage, whilst having Drizzle to counter-act opposing weather. And with Rain Dance, if you lead with it, whilst your opponent leads with Zard (most opponents on the ladder lead with their Charizard), you can use Rain Dance first turn. In the meanwhile, the opposing Zard will likely Mega Evolve and aim Solarbeam at Politoed, only to find that due to your faster Rain Dance, it is now a sitting duck. Make sure you pair lead Politoed with a Pokemon that resists Heat Wave but does not pose a OHKO threat to Zard - they will only encourage Zard to use Solarbeam instead of Heat Wave or Protect. A good example is Latios, who can use manual Rain Dance instead of Choice Scarf Politoed. This ally needs to either be able to 2HKO Zard at worse, or switched out first turn to a Pokemon that can OHKO Zard, so that you can capitalise on locking Zard into Solarbeam and remove it from the field, denying your opponent access to sunshine - you sadly won't be able to rely on Scarf Politoed as it will have to switch out after using Rain Dance. If your opponent has a Fake Out user, you will have to lead with a fast Quick Guard user or a Fake Out user of your own with Politoed, so that Politoed can't be Fake Outed when Charizard uses Solarbeam.

Note that smarter opponents may predict a Politoed switch on the first turn so they won't use Solarbeam, even though they won't expect Scarfed Rain Dance. You can of course do this with other Pokemon, but I chose Politoed because it provides the best anti-weather control and lures Zard into using Solarbeam.

A more effective way to do this would probably be Prankster Meowstic (or Klefki but that will tempt Heat Wave) with Rotom-Wash. Most skilled players will tend to play Charizard a bit more cautiously when they see Politoed. On the other hand they will expect Meowstic to pull off its typical Safeguard/Dual Screens shenanigans and won't see the Rain Dance coming. Rotom-Wash makes for a good lure because it can safely 2HKO Charizard with Thunderbolt, meaning if Charizard tries to use Solarbeam it will be brought to a quick and painful death. Overall Rain Dance is like the new Sunny Day (the main manual weather move last gen), being a good option on things like Cresselia to shut down weather.

 

[Skore]

Here's a replay of a semi Rain semi TR team that's grown out of my exploration of this topic:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogondoubles-75005476

 

[Darkmalice]

A more effective way to do this would probably be Prankster Meowstic (or Klefki but that will tempt Heat Wave) with Rotom-Wash. Most skilled players will tend to play Charizard a bit more cautiously when they see Politoed. On the other hand they will expect Meowstic to pull off its typical Safeguard/Dual Screens shenanigans and won't see the Rain Dance coming. Rotom-Wash makes for a good lure because it can safely 2HKO Charizard with Thunderbolt, meaning if Charizard tries to use Solarbeam it will be brought to a quick and painful death. Overall Rain Dance is like the new Sunny Day (the main manual weather move last gen), being a good option on things like Cresselia to shut down weather.

I agree with your suggestion. And Meowstic is, in general, better for setting up Rain Dance outside of this trick thanks to Prankster and no choice item.

There are some very good rain teams on the latter (one in the 2200s ranking). Most I've seen only utilise Politoed and one rain-dependent sweeper, usually Kingdra, with the other members either not benefiting from rain or only benefitting slightly e.g. Amoonguss. The advantage these teams have over full-weather teams is that still function even if they can't win the weather war. They usually play conservatively with their Politoed provided their sweeper is still healthy or there's a weather war going. However, there are still good full-on rain teams, with Prankster Rain Dance Pokemon as a secondary Pokemon to set up rain in addition to Politoed. This is, of course, necessary for full-on rain teams.

Rain teams are still great teams - the rain abusers are still the same, and to be fair, the nerf in the rain timer does not make that big a difference. The checks to rain teams are the biggest change this gen. Sunny Day is far less common that what it was 5th Gen, and old 5th Gen checks like Gastrodo, Amoonguss, and Dragon-types in general have dropped in popularity. We all know that opposing weather changers got buffed, but also the introduction of Assault Vest has hurt rain teams, as old Pokemon can now more easily tank Water-STABs - Rotom-W is even more threatening to rain teams than what it used to be.

 

[Hashtag]

i use polioed/rain on my main team and its completely viable
he is very useful with perish song; i have gengar on my team, and if he uses perish song and then un-mega gengar comes out, i can force a double-switch. perish song also helps to end games when you are ahead.
helping hand remains an excellent and viable move
volt turn can get politoed out without wasting an attack (granted that the opponent doesn't protect/be ground type) additionally, if the user is faster than charizard, you can get rid of the sun as soon as it comes out
it might have to switch out so the rain doesn't go for good, but i usually did that anyways before gen 6

 

[Audiosurfer]

ok, wrapping up this topic. thanks to Laga for taking over it in my absense. look for another totw to resume in the other thread