Other Unethical Manipulation of CAP Polls

[beej]

Well Doug, many people don't think that the recruiting is necessarily cheating. There really isn't a line between rallying and recruiting, and rallying goes on even higher-level people. In addition to your blanket rule, I think we should make a highly specific and highly VISIBLE warning to go in the actual art poll threads. Bold, red, larger font size, I don't really care, as long as they can see it. Considering that a lot of people don't think what they're doing is necessarily unethical, it should be reasonable to assume a lot of people would be deterred from recruiting/rallying/etc if this were made so abundantly clear.

 

[Doomsday]

The point is -- Why would people cheat on ANYTHING -- art included -- when they will not even experience the pokemon after the poll is over?

For most people, the art poll is literally the last time they will see the CAP pokemon AT ALL. For the small number of people that actually PLAY with these pokemon, they at least have to see the pokemon in battle all the time. At least those people have some form of lasting reason to manipulate a poll. But for everyone else, there is really no motivation whatsoever -- other than having the internal satisfaction of know that "their favorite option won".

It's not saying that it's wrong to vote for something that you will never play. That's fine. People do that in CAP all the time -- 90% or more of the time, in fact. But why would anyone go through all the work to recruit, manipulate, or cheat -- when they won't see or experience that pokemon ever again?

Don't get me wrong, I feel the same about cheating. I fucking hate it in fact, especially because art usually harbors the worst kind of drama possible. I just felt the need to defend myself from the above argument - after all, if the CAP server users feel they and only they should pick the sprite and art, well I'm sure something can be arranged. Just don't go around complaining about us more casual fans of good fake pokemon art :\

 

[Bass]

Although this might not sound surprising, "cheating in the poll" and "recruited voting" are both connected phenomena. In fact, the large number of people who have cheated in this poll could have resulted from this tactic.

After interrogating an artist who voted in the poll, I was told that he was asked by other people to vote with all of his alts. He could not tell me which people were responsible for this, but he went on to tell me that these people failed to mention that such actions could result in a temporary ban if they were caught.

I don't know how truthful that claim is, but if people that know of the consequences for cheating are using other people who do not know better in order to not get their hands dirty, then the "recruit vote" tactic isn't something that we can really ignore anymore, even if it is "legal". I myself have not thought of any solutions at this time, but I think it might be wise to do our best to discourage to this behavior, especially because we know that it now leads to cheating.

 

[benthenoob]

On the notion of requiring a post count to vote:

It'll only result is spamming posts until number X is reached.

 

[DougJustDoug]

It's perfectly OK to participate in the CAP project through the forum only -- even just certain parts of the process is fine.

Yes, people that play with CAP pokemon on the server might feel like they have a little more stake in these creations than the non-battling members of the community. But that's fine, because their opinions in the competitive steps of the process, are usually given more weight over their theorymon-only counterparts. CAP server regulars carry a little more "cred" here on the forum, which seems fair enough to me.

But, I will never endorse any measures or rules that imply that you must play regularly on the server in order to participate in CAP. That will never happen. We WILL constantly encourage people to log on the server and take a spin with the pokemon we create. Playtesting these creations in real battles, is a cornerstone of the entire project. And the server is a fun place to hang out as well. But, it's perfectly fine if people casually participate in the CAP project through the forum only.

 

[Deck Knight]

Art Polls concern me the most only because they tend to get at least double the votes of every other poll. 500 votes? Really? I doubt we have 500 registrants on the CAP server, including alts.

Unfortunately there is no "good" way to solve this.

If we make it a post count then people will just recruit inactive members above that postcount, or members close to reaching it. In fact with the number of bold polls and discussions this is the least practical, because even a semi-coherent post or a bold vote won't be deleted.

A registration list? this is the most feasible, but anyone who currently abuses the system will already have their alts at the ready. Unless they are slow they will simply work around the system, and people who join mid-CAP will be SOL.

The reason people cheat or recruit or whatever is because they like to back a winner, and CAP Art is basically a massive tri-monthly Art Contest. Anyone who likes anyone in Smeargle's Studio is going to try and "reward" the artist for their work, or alternatively "punish" an artist who has ticked them off.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Art Polls concern me the most only because they tend to get at least double the votes of every other poll. 500 votes? Really? I doubt we have 500 registrants on the CAP server, including alts.

Unfortunately there is no "good" way to solve this.

If we make it a post count then people will just recruit inactive members above that postcount, or members close to reaching it. In fact with the number of bold polls and discussions this is the least practical, because even a semi-coherent post or a bold vote won't be deleted.

A registration list? this is the most feasible, but anyone who currently abuses the system will already have their alts at the ready. Unless they are slow they will simply work around the system, and people who join mid-CAP will be SOL.

The reason people cheat or recruit or whatever is because they like to back a winner, and CAP Art is basically a massive tri-monthly Art Contest. Anyone who likes anyone in Smeargle's Studio is going to try and "reward" the artist for their work, or alternatively "punish" an artist who has ticked them off.

Hasn't it been suggested in the past to have the art poll become anonymous with regards to artists until afterwards so that some of this personal enmity is avoided? I myself don't see any merit in the idea because it would be a pain to implement but someone else might have some inspiration as to making this a possibility.

EDIT: I see someone up there in the walls of text beat me.

 

[Penguino]

On the notion of requiring a post count to vote:

It'll only result is spamming posts until number X is reached.

But then the cheating is obvious and easy to catch. Also, it's more work, so at least we won't end up with any lazy cheaters :naughty:

 

[benthenoob]

But then the cheating is obvious and easy to catch. Also, it's more work, so at least we won't end up with any lazy cheaters :naughty:

LOL. True. No one likes a lazy cheater.

But posts are easy to come by, esp during the course of a CAP, since there is so much open discussion.

 

[Numbuh 214]

Okay, so I don't post a lot here either, but here's my 2 cents on the matter:

The problem is that people don't bother making a sprite for the art they believe "should have won" because they know that the general majority of those who want the design cannot access the Shoddy Battle sprite folder and insert the sprites like Doug's sprite updater does; I have a similar problem with the Platinum sprites I ripped and cropped from Veekun with the help of a Java program I cooked up (if anyone wants the source code, PM me).

Take Kitsunoh for example; from what I've heard, a decent amount of the CaP server voted for Doug's design in the CaP7 art polls (myself included). I had heard someone was even in the process of making a sprite for it but stopped when it lost the art poll. I'm not saying we should have sprite polls for every popular design, but a way for the masses to insert "alternative" sprites so people have a small choice over what they look at when they battle with and against the CaPs. Obviously, the "alternative" sprites would be of decidedly lower quality than the winner, but it's something for people who really dislike the popular art choice for w/e reason. This may actually detract some cheating too (though I sincerely doubt it) due to the fact that people who want it bad enough can make a sprite for it even if it DOESN'T win (which, as I've stated, isn't a worthwhile endeavor right now).

Anyways, these are just some ideas I'm tossing out there; say what you will, but please respect my right to think of solutions to a very real problem.

 

[Penguino]

But posts are easy to come by, esp during the course of a CAP, since there is so much open discussion.

Well, is someone gonna spend like three hours posting on CAP forums, waiting for someone to respond to their message so they can post again? And even if someone is this devoted (the opposite of the said lazy people), then it's still pretty obvious if every other post is by the same person.

 

[Headpunch]

it could be helpful to make the submissions of art/sprites/etc anonymous.

I believe something like that has been suggested before, but it was shot down because artists then can't showcase their work beforehand and make changes based on what people think of them.

Artists would be able to showcase and receive feedback beforehand. It is entirely feasible for all art and sprite submissions to be posted anonymously by the topic leader for evaluation in their respective threads. Artists can read through the feedback and submit revisions through the TL. Come time for voting, the submissions would be labeled by number only. Posts by artists in any forum indicating ownership of a submission could result in the disqualification of that artwork.

Admittedly, some artists have recognizable styles/can reveal ownership via other websites, PM, IRC, etc.; however, this policy keeps casual sycophants from coming in and voting for big names. Additionally, it makes campaigning and recruiting votes more difficult, and that can only be a plus.

 

[Naxte]

Well, is someone gonna spend like three hours posting on CAP forums, waiting for someone to respond to their message so they can post again? And even if someone is this devoted (the opposite of the said lazy people), then it's still pretty obvious if every other post is by the same person.

Doesn't matter. Excluding people based on post-count is something that's not going to happen, as that would mean excluding valid contributors from the process, who've done nothing wrong, just because a few people had to abuse it. And I'd personally much rather deal with some people being cheaters, then not and kick valid contributors out with them.

 

[Thorns]

I'm all for having a pre-CAP voter registration list. But the problem is alts will register anyway, and there's nothing we can do to stop it.

I'm asking the community to do the right thing. Don't destroy the name of Smogon with your antics. If you continue to tear the project down, there will be no project.

 

[jumpluff]

Uh, the way I see it, this thread has gone on a ridiculous tangent. The problem isn't so much signing up with alts--while that is a huge hassle to check every vote, it's very obvious. The problem is recruiting people to sign up themselves and vote; technically, this vote is legal, but it is unethical and messes with the polls.

 

[locopoke]

I'm barely involved in CAP, and I don't really know what's expected of people participating in CAP or what goes on aside from 'creating Pokemon' (obviously). But I really never would have imagined that people would care so much and be so into it that they would actually find a way to cheat on a Create A Pokemon Poll to get the sprite/art they wanted. Seriously, who would stoop so low as to do that? :|

 

[Raj]

Apart from direct recruitment, another thing to be considered is advertising. Anyone looked at SU Leaderboard in the last day or so? "Vote for Cyzir". Is this unethical? Personally, I don't think so, but it is easy to crack down on.

 

[jumpluff]

What's wrong with alts like that? It's not exactly directly influential as asking your friends to vote, and advertising at best advertises people to vote in the CaP poll. No one who isn't interested in CaP would know what 'vote for cyzir' means on the ladder.

 

[locopoke]

Apart from direct recruitment, another thing to be considered is advertising. Anyone looked at SU Leaderboard in the last day or so? "Vote for Cyzir". Is this unethical? Personally, I don't think so, but it is easy to crack down on.

Somebody on the leaderboard is named "Vote for Cyzir". They aren't giving any information on what they want you to vote for, some people may not be aware of polls on CAP. Secondly, he's not doing anything wrong, he's not forcing anybody to vote for Cyzir. If they see his name on there, why should they be compelled to vote?

 

[reyscarface]

Apart from direct recruitment, another thing to be considered is advertising. Anyone looked at SU Leaderboard in the last day or so? "Vote for Cyzir". Is this unethical? Personally, I don't think so, but it is easy to crack down on.

Thats me :o

Well, i dont think i killed any kitty for using that name actually. It was meant as a joke just so you know (Heck, i used the name "Macle is Sexy" for the ladder exactly before the "Vote for Cyzir" one).

I didnt recruit ANYONE. I actually think i recruited for Cartoons, thanks to my falmeish responses to hax, i guess i scared some guys and made them vote into Cartoons lol (nah jk).

I dont see anything wrong of using that name, it was meant just as a laddering alt, i didnt try to recruit anyone, i just liked Cyzir's design and used that name, not like i said every battle "VOTE FOR CYZIR OR I WILL KILL YOU AND STEAL YOUR POKES MWAHAHAH".

And just for kicks, i started with that alt in the afternoon of the Thursday, which was the day the poll closed IIRC.

Sorry if this hurted anyone, although im bored of laddering and probably will make a new alt, so "Vote for Cyzir" is gone.

Edit: Oh, and for elections and political things, i dont think its banned and punished to give caps and shirts saying "Vote for X dude"

Edit 2: And i forgot to say that i can bet 100 bucks that 75% of the guys i faced didnt even know about CAP, or about the art poll

 

[PuffinHour]

I don't want to read the entire posting but I have something to say.

Might as well limit the number of "poll-er". Like 10 honorable Judges. It wouldn't be much of a community poll now but...

 

[Scoopapa]

I think you could impose a fairly short time limit (like a week) that a profile needs to have been active. Because recruiting is asking for favors, that would make it much less of a simple task, so it wouldn't be as easy to say, ask your friend who doesn't care about pokemon to just sign up and vote (assuming people who do care about pokemon would have voted honestly already anyway). To avoid giving off an air of exclusivity, you could just say something like, "if your profile has been active for less than a week, your voting ability may not have kicked in..." implying that its a technical snafu (albeit a far-fetched one). It's a little dishonest (not a lie, more like misleading use of passive voice), but imo, fairly harmless. Otherwise, you could just say outright it is to stop recruiting from happening. At any rate, I think it would only take a short time frame to discourage recruiters, and hopefully there's one still short enough to not discourage new members.

On a side note, I would never tell anyone I know that I'm working on a project to create a new pokemon...

Edit: If someone did recruit people to wait out the time limit, it would be fairly obvious when a bunch of profiles join, then do nothing, then vote as soon as they can.