Unified Diff of Smogon's OU vs Shoddy's 42 most popular

chaos

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This is cool, but here are my two cents: I don't know if I want to base the OU list off Shoddy's most popular, because what a random Shoddy user is using isn't necessarily representative of what you'd find in say, a tournament battle. If there was a way to solely extract data from tournament battles, I think -that- would be something awesome to base an OU list off of.
 
This is cool, but here are my two cents: I don't know if I want to base the OU list off Shoddy's most popular, because what a random Shoddy user is using isn't necessarily representative of what you'd find in say, a tournament battle. If there was a way to solely extract data from tournament battles, I think -that- would be something awesome to base an OU list off of.
Sorry for the off-topicness, but your signature is absoulutely amazing. I just lol'd for like 3 minutes straight.

Anyway, isn't Shoddy having a tournament anyway? They could take the usage rates off of that.
 

Jumpman16

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One tournament would be a pitiful drop in the ocean of statistics the community needs for accurate tiering. Colin's already attempted a more accurate list by weighting his usage by the top players in the Ladder, which is about as "quality" as you can get in the interests of the "quantity" that is really, really necessary given the still-fledgling nature of the metagame. I agree that good tournaments are the best medium upon which to base the Smogon tiers, but you must also realize that "good tournaments" would still need a lot of time to have their data archived, even if Shoddy or whatever other simulator were holding decent tournaments frequently. Shoddy's Ladder system, especially if its usage statistics are going to reflect weighting, is probably the best thing the community can have right now for an accurate, comprehensive logging of competitive battling.

Oh, and just to be sure, guys, since I have a feeling I may actually need to spell this out to some of you after what i just posted — I have no leanings either way towards Shoddy or the eventual Competitor. Even though I could get away with it, I'm not trying to get under Cute Trainer chaos's skin and he knows it!
 

monkfish

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Great thread, great ideas. Finally a quantifiable tier list! I really think the tier list should be based on statistical usage rather than theoretical usage. The weighted list is obviously more reliable - although I'm sure it could be improved somehow.
 
Uh, I'm kinda new here, so I really have no clue who or what Obi is. Is he an Admin?

Either way, I don't like his logic. UU and NU are supposed to be balanced metagames, so it wouldn't make sense to put Gyarados in there just because everyone stopped using it, nor would it make sense to ban Kingler from that environment solely because everyone started using them in their OU teams.
A small note: Sorry for being a bit harsh earlier. Thats all I need to say on that issue. Now moving on...

You're slightly off. Power determines UU vs BL. Useage however determines what is OU and what isn't OU. Literally, OU means "Over-used". The primary purpose of UU is to play with pokemon that are not used often. Now we just learned that Froslass and Tentacruel are being used more commonly than Aerodactyl and other (decently popular) pokemon, so we cannot say that they are an under-used pokemon.

Pokemon like Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Moltres and so forth are underused by definition. However, we need a balanced metagame if we want to see more UU pokemon being used. Thus, Moltres and other very powerful pokemon are banned from UU to make the room for say... Camelrupt and Torkoal.
 
nor would it make sense to ban Kingler from that environment solely because everyone started using them in their OU teams.
I do agree with this statement, and would like to express disappointment in not being able to the pokemon that are OU not because of their raw power, but because of a special usefulness, in UU.

But by our definitions of OU, I guess tentacruel will have to hang around in OU for a while.
 

Mr.E

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I think it's a bit silly to base tiers on usage rather than power in the first place, though it must be admitted that usage is highly correlated to power. :/ But since UU is not really that well-defined a metagame, we already kinda use a "power" base with regard to deciding BL pokémon. This is not really the same as placing uber-tier pokémon who clearly centralize the standard metagame entirely around them as few, if any, BL pokémon are so equally dangerous in UU. Steelix doesn't single-handedly destroy most any UU team the way Normal Arceus would a standard OU team.

Basing OU status on usage concedes that usage is correlated "enough" to power that usage becomes an accurate measure by which to tier pokémon. Usage is also easier to use, since it's already quantified (you just need record-keeping to keep track) and entirely objective. It could also be argued that since the pokémon community names the tiers based on usage (overused, underused) that we really should just rank pokémon based on how much they're used. It doesn't matter how powerful Salamence is if nobody uses it.

If we do that, though, why the hell don't we just plain list them in order of usage? Don't only tell me "these are the X most used pokémon," you might as well just give me the full numbers and tell me exactly how often each pokémon is used. The lists in this topic are fine for that purpose. The only purpose of the tiers is to tell us where a certain "cutoff" point is, or to define which pokémon are "too strong" for OU/UU (and placing them into Uber/BL tiers). Even still, some OU pokémon may only be OU due to a niche in the OU metagame they fill as a counter to the "real" OU pokemon -- place them in the UU environment and they're as average as every other UU because the OU pokémon that influenced its use don't exist.

I feel like I'm just rambling based on the topic. Don't pay any attention, it's a wall of inane text. For the topic at-hand, I think the weighted list is a bit more useful because it says more about what good players use and not so much TenYOScrub69's unstoppable Gorebyss/Charizard combo.

You're slightly off. Power determines UU vs BL. Useage however determines what is OU and what isn't OU. Literally, OU means "Over-used". The primary purpose of UU is to play with pokemon that are not used often. Now we just learned that Froslass and Tentacruel are being used more commonly than Aerodactyl and other (decently popular) pokemon, so we cannot say that they are an under-used pokemon.
But when half the tiers are usage-based (OU, UU) and the other tiers are power-based (Uber, BL) then you just end up with pokémon in the higher tiers (Uber to OU, BL to UU) that nobody ever gets to use at all. People are actually using Froslass more than Aerodactyl, but Aerodactyl is too powerful for UU too. So when DOES Aerodactyl get used? Nowhere. Sure, someone might occasionally make a standard team with it work, but if people did that on a regular basis it would've been OU in the first place.

Where is the metagame for Aerodactyl and Moltres? :(
 
I really like the list, Dragontamer. At the very least, it gives you an adequate heads up on what you are up against on the majority of people you battle. Even if people do not entirely agree with it's correlation to what OU is or isn't, should or shouldn't be, it's still useful in that regard. Not surprising from you.

As for Gengar's use compared to Alakzam, I would say a lot of it would weigh in on it's immunities, rather than being able to survive a simple pursuit from Weavile. Alakzam doesn't get half the chances to come in other Pokemon that Gengar does, and it can block Rapid Spin if it needs to. That's all aside from it's nice move pool.

I'm kinda surprised on the lack of love for Dugtrio, though.
 
Tiers, in all the games I've come across, represent inherent potential if the user could play perfectly. In other words, it's based on the pure stats and abilities (and in pokemon's case, move pool) of the pokemon/characters/whatever without consideration of the player's skill.

Tiers are never usage based- OU is just a name assigned to the top tier. You could just call it "second highest tier" and it would mean the same thing.

uh, rereading some of the previous posts, I have no idea if my post fits in, and I'm probably repeating others. Oh well, I didn't read page 2 and 3, so sue me.
 
Kong-- you can read the last page of the BL/UU discussion to hear Obi's explanation of Smogon's stance of the issue.

Anyway, the main point being that yes, UU is a balanced metagame-- BUT its whole purpose is to be a balanced metagame of pokemon that don't really see play in OU, because its a tier where players take a break from seeing the same OU strategies/pokemon again and again. If we let pokes like Tentacruel/Frosslass who appear in more OU games than many "OU pokemon," into UU, then we are essentially missing the whole point of having UU.
Yes, that is a nice change of pace, but isn't the sole reason. It's still supposed to be balanced, because it's a metagame people actually use. Usage should only determine OU --> BL and vice versa, because both BL and OU Pokemon can only be used in standard play (well, and ubers), so they're essentially the same tier. However, it wouldn't make sense to disturb the balance of UU and NU because of rises and drops in popularity.

If the tiers are strictly on usage, should we not make Blissey uber? And I rarely see Suicune at all anymore, UU mirite?
 

Bologo

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No, the tiers such as BL/Uber are essentially the BANNED tiers. People could use Luvdisc all day, and maybe it would become OU due to usage, but it would never become uber because it just doesn't warrant being banned since it sucks.
 
No, the tiers such as BL/Uber are essentially the BANNED tiers. People could use Luvdisc all day, and maybe it would become OU due to usage, but it would never become uber because it just doesn't warrant being banned since it sucks.
I don't see the logic in "it's popular, but not strong enough for BL, so we put in OU".
 
I don't see the logic in "it's popular, but not strong enough for BL, so we put in OU".
Tiers work like this:

We take all pokémon, and start playing. Soon enough, we'll have a group of them that are very used (we call it "Over Used"), and group that isn't (and that's "Under Used"). We separate those groups. Then, we take those from the OU group that are too powerful and make a separate "banned" tier for them: they are the Ubers. Then, we take those from the second group (UU) that are too powerful for it, and label them "Borderline", allowing them to compete along with OU and the group of Ubers.

This is an iterative process, meaning that, once each change is made, the metagame evolves to accomodate for it, and then some pokémon will move from one tier to another, until it is stabilized somewhat. It is also dependent on time, meaning that the tiers will evolve as the metagame does.
 
Then we shouldn't be calling this list 'tiers' at all. In most games, tiers are based strictly on potential or power. It's another way of saying "If player X had equal skill to player Y, and player X used character A while player Y used character B, player X would usually win". It doesn't make any sense to base them off usage and still call them 'tiers'.
 
Pokemon is not a fighting game, and the raw potential of different pokemon is even more subjective than a popularity list. I can sit here and argue how so many pokemon can't beat my Walrein, but I doubt anyone will ban Walrein to Ubers. (hell, it didn't even get Walrein out of UU)

EDIT: Anyway, while this usage is different than the way fighting games use the word tier, this is how the word is used on Smogon, and it seems like for the most part, everyone seems to understand that by now. For crying out loud, the names OU, BL, and UU for the Pokemon Tiers have been around since at least the Advance Generation.

I can see an argument for a new system of tiers, but generally speaking those are rarely completed well.

I really like the list, Dragontamer. At the very least, it gives you an adequate heads up on what you are up against on the majority of people you battle. Even if people do not entirely agree with it's correlation to what OU is or isn't, should or shouldn't be, it's still useful in that regard. Not surprising from you.
Thank Colin, not me. I'm simply reporting statistics that Colin has gathered.
 
In every competitive game I've played, tiers have always had a foot in usage. I don't know what "most games" you play are, if you could elaborate it would be better.

People tend to use powerful* things more often then weaker things in a competitive environment, it's the hand that guides our decisions.

Theoretical tiers are in place to stop obviously banned things from entering our clean, competitive environment. Mewtwo with Amnesia in RBY, for example.




EDIT for clarification:
*Powerful does not necessarily mean huge attack and huge speed. Take it to mean "highly useful" such as Blissey.
 
In every competitive game I've played, tiers have always had a foot in usage. I don't know what "most games" you play are, if you could elaborate it would be better.
Basically any fighting game (and maybe more). Granted, pokemon isn't a fighting game, and the term "tiers" doesn't need to mean what it means in every other game, but then that's almost... silly.

No one's saying tiers aren't related to usage though.

edit- Dragontamer basically covered all this in his previous post XD
 
Basically any fighting game (and maybe more).
I really am asking you to list games, not give me more generalizations. I play Guilty Gear, Smash, Marvel v. Capcom, and Street Fighter in tournaments often enough that I'm wondering what games you could possibly be talking about.



It doesn't make any sense to base them off usage and still call them 'tiers'.
No one's saying tiers aren't related to usage though.
Please don't contradict yourself.
 
But who cares what people are using? Yes, it makes sense that the greater the use, the greater the potential, and that's how it generally works, but that's not always the case, so why not use expert's opinions on what is better than what?

I mean, looking at the tier list based on usage and seeing that Sunflora suddenly moved to OU because it saw a lot of use for no reason doesn't say as much as seeing Sunflora in NU because the top Smogon people said that it sucks.
 
In my mind, I think that there should be a theoretical rating system, based on a variety of factors. Smogon DOES do that with its analyses, but it seems that there is a grey area for other Pokemon. This is what I propose:

i.e.
[Pokemon]

1. Typing, Type-Affecting abilities, Weaknesses and Resistances.
2. Abilities (that do not affect type).
3. Movepool (how varied is it? what's the type coverage? how well will movesets be able to be made out of it?).
4. Base Stats, how they affect its battling prowess, and what natures, IVs and EVs can do to affect this.
5. Possible movesets, making the most out of the Pokemon's movepool.
6. Potential counters it may have, based on the aformentioned five "factor sets."
7. Potential alternates this Pokemon may have, and what this Pokemon does to set itself apart.
8. Final Notes

The way I propose is that each of these 6 or so factor sets are scored out of a set number (let's say 10 for now). These scores will be derived at based on how well the Pokemon performs in each stat. The six totals could then be averaged accordingly. An example:

Cloyster:

1. Typing, and how it affects Cloyster:
4x weak: None
2x weak: Electric, Grass, Fighting, Rock
.5x weak: Water
.25x weak: Ice
Cloyster's typing, sadly, isn't very good. Although Grass type attacks are far and few between comparably, the other three are quite common. Electric is Cloyster's number one threat, due to the sheer amount of special-tye Electric attacks. Fighting and Rock are also dangerous in the forms of Stealth Rock and Cross Chop/Close Combat. It does have a variety of STAB'd Ice attacks it can make use of, as well as a STAB'd Surf, but which make for moderate coverage.
Typing rating: 5/10

2. How Cloyster's abilities affect it:
-Ability: Skill Link
Shell Link, by definition, allows Cloyster to make use of moves that attack 2-5 times to a greater extent, as they now will attack 5 times. Spike Cannon and Ice Shard are notable enhancements that make use of this, however, aside from these moves, its usability is somewhat limited.
-Ability: Shell Armor
Shell Armor prevents Cloyster from receiving critical hits. This may be more beneficial to Cloyster, as it is far less situational. Also, it is a little added protection to a somewhat lackluster HP.
What can be said is that Cloyster does not necessarily receive any negative effects from either ability, it's just down to choosing which one suits which one you prefer, really. The only problem with its abilities is that neither are tremendously beneficial, either.
Abilities Rating: 7/10

3. Cloyster's moveset, and how it affects it:
All STAB'd attacks in Bold
Physical Offense:
  • Tackle
  • Icicle Spear
  • Clamp
  • Ice Shard
  • Spike Cannon
  • Frustration/Return
  • Facade
  • Secret Power
  • Explosion
  • Payback
  • Giga Impact
  • Avalanche
  • Natural Gift
  • Poison Jab
  • Take Down
  • Rapid Spin
For being a primarily defensive PKMN, Cloyster certainly has a variety of offensive moves! Considering he has a 95 base attack, using an offense move or two may not be so bad. Notables include Explosion, Icicle Spear, Avalanche, Ice Shard, Rapid Spin.
Special Offense:
  • Aurora Beam
  • Whirlpool
  • Water Pulse
  • Hidden Power
  • Ice Beam
  • Blizzard
  • Hyper Beam
  • Brine
  • Surf
  • Bubblebeam
  • Mud-Shot
When looking to do ome STAB'd damage, Cloyster seems to have that covered Special Attack-wise. A Base 85 is decidedly average, and rightfully so, which Cloyster could also make use of. Notables include Surf, Ice Beam, Brine, Whirlpool.
Supporting Moves:
  • Toxic Spikes
  • Withdraw
  • Supersonic
  • Protect
  • Spikes
  • Leer
  • Iron Defense
  • Toxic
  • Hail
  • Rain Dance
  • Double Team (banned due to Evasion clause)
  • Torment
  • Rest
  • Attract
  • Endure
  • Captivate
  • Sleep Talk
  • Swagger
  • Substitute
  • Barrier
  • Screech
Although Cloyster's support movepool seems decently sized, it can only make use of a few of these, to which tanks cannot attest, as the average tank tends to be much more defensively allotted. Notables include Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Protect.
From what we see, we can determine a few things. One, Cloyster is a Rapid Spinner, as well as a Spiker. Two, when dealing out STAB'd damage, he can do well to a degree. Three, outside of STAB, his type coverage is severely lacking, notably against Electric and Fighting types. Four, his usuable support moves are somewhat lacking for a wall with his stats.
Movepool Rating: 6/10

4. Cloyster's stats, and their affect on his usability:
(All Stats are shown as such: Base, [Max 50(Bad-Good Nature), Max 100(Bad-Good Nature)])
(Max refers to having a 31 IV in that stat, as well as maxed EVs for that stat)
-HP: 50 [157, 304]
-ATK: 95 [132-161, 260-317]
-DEF: 180 [208-255, 413-504]
-Sp. ATK: 85 [123-150, 242-295]
-Sp. DEF: 45 [87-106, 170-207]
-SPD: 70 [109-134, 215-262]
What mainly stands out is its monstrous defense, that could potentially go up to a whopping 504! The problem with that is its terrible HP and Sp. Defense make little use out of this. It can make for a decent wall, but frankly, its HP prevents him from being as good a defensive wall as the likes of Snorlax, Skarmory, etc. It does have some bite though, and can make for a decently done mixed attacking tank.
Stat Rating: 6/10

5. Possible movesets Cloyster could potentially use:
These movesets were concocted by Aeolus, and can be seen in the D/P Analysis Threads.
As stated earlier, Cloyster makes his living by Spiking and Spinning. Based on his movepool, we can determine a suitable moveset or sets.
-"Standard"
Cloyster @ Leftovers
Relaxed/Impish
-Rapid Spin
-Spikes
-Explosion
-Surf/Ice Beam/Avalanche/Icicle Spear
The top two are for the spiking/spinning, and the fourth move is basically what you want to do with Cloyster offensively. Avalanche does double if Cloyster's slower (which he is), Icicle Spear runs off of Skill Link, Surf & Ice Beam are old RBY favorites.

-Spikes Galore
Cloyster @ Leftovers
Relaxed
-Toxic Spikes
-Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Beam/Surf/Explosion
Addition of Toxic Spikes, and Explosion may or may not be splendid, if you want your only spinner to blow up. Allows Poison to seem through the other team. Risks activating Guts-Banders.

That seems to be all for Cloyster, sadly. Substitute makes little use of his paltry 304 HP, Toxic is an alternate to Toxic Spikes, Ice Shard might trip up Garchomps, Protect might work once in a while, and Hail is better off on a Bulkier Ice type.
Moveset Stats: 5/10

6. Counters, what Cloyster is scared of:
-Dusknoir: Cloyster cannot Rapid Spin away Spikes if Dusknoir is in his way. The only thing that could be done is to chip away at the DUAL high defenses it has, and Toxic (Spikes) away his HP.
-Stealth Rock: Any team with a Stealth Rocker will severely hamper Cloyster's survivability for more than two switch ins.
-SpecsCario: Lucario is one of the few Fighting types able to use Special Fighting attacks. I shouldn't need to tell you anything else.
-Most Electric types, if not ALL: Electric is Cloyster's main weakness, which Cloyster cannot hope to counter. Switch out immediately.
-Strong Fighting Types: Machamp and Hariyama come to mind, Cloyster MAY survive a turn, but Explosion probably won't OHKO to Hariyama if he has full HP.
-Anyone with a strong Fighting, Electric or Grass attack does quick work of it also, sadly.
Counter Rating: 2.5/10

7. How Cloyster compares:
In the RSE days, Cloyster was the only spiker who could switch out of Magneton. These days, Skarmory & Forretress can add Shed Shells to their repertoire to swap out. Froslass, a new Ice type, manages to block RS and Spike all by itself. Unlike Donphan and Foretress, Cloyster is weak to Stealth Rock, which hampers him quite a bit. The only thing Cloyster seems to have going for him is that he can Rapid Spin in Hail.
Individuality Rating: 4/10

8. Final Notes:
Poor Cloyster. Hopefully he gets something in 5th gen to rise back to the top of the Spiking throne, which he held so dear in RBY-RSE.
Overall Score: 5.07/10
Status: Underused


Pokemon could be judged onto this scale:
7.5-10 Average: OU
4.1-7.4 Average: UU
0-4.1 Average: NU

That way, we can get rid of the BL, just for argument's sake. The only problem I see with this is score discrepancy and argument among others. The above was simply an example. Any thoughts?
 
I mean, looking at the tier list based on usage and seeing that Sunflora suddenly moved to OU
Just stop for a minute and think about how and why Sunflora would be used in such a way as to outpace things like T-tar and Garchomp. Someone mentioned the top 42, I'll use that assumption.

If someone comes up with a set that makes it usable to the point where it replaces our "bog standard" you bet your ass it's OU. The "WHAT IF EVERYONE STARTED USING XXXX" argument holds absolutely no water. People use what works, that's the motivation behind usage and behind tiers.



@RLan: XX/10 is too subjective to be used literally. It's a great concept but is impossible to balance on a 10-scale. Hard statistical data wins out in the end.
 
It's true. If everyone started using a certain Pokemon a lot, by the way the system works now, said Pokemon will be moved to OU no matter what. That's a flaw in the system.

Think of it like this. What are you doing when you move a Pokemon up a tier? You're banning it from a lower tier. What do you do when you bump a Pokemon down a tier? You're allowing it into that tier. Would it make sense to allow Salamence into UU play if people stopped using it? Would it make sense to ban Beedrill from the UU and NU environments because more people started using it in OU?

The tier a Pokemon resides in should be strictly be determined by its counters. If a Pokemon can be countered in UU, it should not be banned from UU, regardless if it's on every other competitive team or not. If a Pokemon cannot be countered in UU, it should not be allowed in that environment, regardless how rare it is to see in OU.
 
I know, I just used X/10 as an example. One would have to make it like out of 100 or 200.

As for Sunflora as an "OU", the only thing i could consider is that (if ubers are counted), it becomes part of the Groudon Sunny Day Teams. Otherwise, Sunflora doesn't seem to have the speed to warrant being in OU.
 
It's true. If everyone started using a certain Pokemon a lot, by the way the system works now, said Pokemon will be moved to OU no matter what. That's a flaw in the system.
It's not a flaw at all. Anything that finds itself on more teams than what we call the OU right now is by definition OU and should be treated as such. I trust in this community enough (!) to know that people will not all use Splash Magikarp. If you don't believe that people make intelligent decisions on the competitive scene, then I can understand why my argument flies over your head.

Additionally, Salamence will never go out of OU. It's hard enough to find a situation where Sunflora gets vaulted to the top (sudden love of the Sun Power Specs set with it's huge Sp.Atk?), it's impossible to find a situation where Salamence is shunned from OU and has to cry in a corner while it spanks on Spindas.




The heart of this tier debate, as I know I've said before, is that we're too busy trying to make two tiers to balance one. If we're an OU community, so be it. Make an OU tier and ban everything better than it. Anything under still stays.

If we're a UU community, ban everything better than UU. Anything under still stays. We're trying to be both at the same time and ignoring the logical contradictions implied (such as a pokemon being good in both OU and UU but being held back from being both (Tentacruel, Walrein with hail, your second to last argument)).

As for pokemon being in UU that are too strong? My assertion at the beginning ensures that will never happen in a logical way. Additionally, you bound OU on the lower end to not interfere with UU. There's no reason why we can only have 42 OU or why we cannot have 200 OU. These are simply arbitrary conventions by the average Smogoner.

But I'm sure you're so familiar with our tiers as to know that already.
 

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