Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[LORD HELIX 65]

doesn't helmet tang do exactly the same thing? like i guess it loses to weavile but on the flip side it deters stuff like torn and clef from coming in with knock and sleep powder. plus weavile and mamo aren't common enough to warrant a teamslot dedicated to them imo. or mega scizor? it beats a majority of your list with hp ice or hp fire and offers defog to boot. even if you don't run hidden power, u turn is enough to pressure its switch ins. meanwhile your buzzwole set loses to arguably the best stealth rocker in the tier right now, clefable while also letting hazards go up from gren and pex. seems like the only reason you got to your peak with buzzwole is not because of buzzwole itself but a decent fat core and the fact that ou ladder cannot break stall for shit and the only reason you're using buzzwole is not because buzzwole offers anything better but because of a novelty thing.

convince me otherwise

No need to be rude, you're the one who just said Tangrowth gets u turn and defog.... Anyways to keep this from being a one liner, I agree with Buzzwole being ranked as it checks some pretty significant threats like Zygarde, Weavile, certain Landos and Mamoswine. It's physical bulk and great attack cannot be denied and I think it should've been ranked a long time ago....

 

[Vengeance417]

No need to be rude, you're the one who just said Tangrowth gets u turn and defog....

• Not sure if I read your post correctly, but Tangrowth doesn't get Defog or U-Turn.

He's talking about Mega Scizor when bringing up Defog and U-turn support. It could have been worded a lot better, though.

doesn't helmet tang do exactly the same thing? like i guess it loses to weavile but on the flip side it deters stuff like torn and clef from coming in with knock and sleep powder. plus weavile and mamo aren't common enough to warrant a teamslot dedicated to them imo. or mega scizor? it beats a majority of your list with hp ice or hp fire and offers defog to boot. even if you don't run hidden power, u turn is enough to pressure its switch ins. meanwhile your buzzwole set loses to arguably the best stealth rocker in the tier right now, clefable while also letting hazards go up from gren and pex. seems like the only reason you got to your peak with buzzwole is not because of buzzwole itself but a decent fat core and the fact that ou ladder cannot break stall for shit and the only reason you're using buzzwole is not because buzzwole offers anything better but because of a novelty thing.

convince me otherwise

Either way, I agree with a Buzzwole ranking. Like what Cookees said, what differentiates this mon from Helmet Tangrowth is its ability to handle more threats with just Drain Punch and Ice Punch alone, while also utilizing Bulk Up to keep pace with DD/Coil Zygarde. However, the fact that it baits Clefable and even Heatran with certain reads leads me to believe that Buzzwole shouldn't go past C. The lack of Regenerator also kind of sucks as Beast Boost isn't all that important when Bulk Up is already being utilized. I'd actually like it to start at C- and let it prove itself some more if it ultimately ends up being ranked.

 

[matthewc20090]

You make some sound arguments, I'll try my best to address them.

• In regards to deterring switch-ins, Buzzwole also has access to Ice Punch and Poison Jab, should you choose to run them.
• Weavile and Mamoswine are pretty significant threats that can walk through your team if you do not prepare for them adequately.
• Tangrowth suffers from 4MSS, if it goes with HP Fire, it cannot reliably check Zygarde, SD Gliscor, Landorus-T. But if it goes with HP Ice, it cannot reliably check SD Scizor, Kartana, Bisharp. In contrast, Buzzwole will be able to check and defeat all these threats. Buzzwole also takes +2 Corkscrew Crash from Kartana while Tangrowth can't.
• Regardless if Tangrowth has HP Fire, it still takes a huge chunk from +2 U-Turn from M-Scizor if it SDs on the switch.
• Not sure if I read your post correctly, but Tangrowth doesn't get Defog or U-Turn.

gonna go ahead and steal your format

• if you're not running max attack (which you aren't) then jab isn't doing anything to clef and if you're running max attack you lose out on significant bulk making it harder to check stuff like dragonium zygarde, banded smart strike kart etc.
• weavile and mamo are less threatening vs stall when you got skarm celesteela clefable and/or toxapex (in the case of weavile) walling 1v1ing them. don't see why i need a dedicated answer to them
• you can beat all of those mons barring zygarde with helmet tangrowth on one set: sleep powder, knock, giga, fire. sd gliscor doesn't beat you because it can't roost without losing flying type and lando doesn't beat you period. and kart and sciz don't ko with +2 boosted attacks so hp fire and sleep powder are free respectively. also if you're running stall that loses to sd sciz idk what ur doing man. bisharp is a moot point.
• also buzzwole doesn't even kill kart with drain punch so the corkscrew crash point doesn't make much sense.

to sum it up, i think as a ground type answer tangrowth is pretty much always better, and while buzzwole might compress some roles on a stall team, it gives up a lot of potential for a teamslot.

another point id like to make is just how much of the ou tier forces out the buzzwole set you mentioned (other sets might beat these mons but we're talking buzzwole on stall right now). all of heatran, koko, clefable, ash gren, tapu lele, zapdos, toxapex, hawlucha, tornadus-t, mega medicham, and tapu fini force buzzwole out and can come in on at least one move, and thats just from the 20 most used mons in the tier. so for what are you using buzzwole then? is it really worth it to waste a teamslot to lose to all of these pokemon just to check kartana and zygarde? finally, when you need something like bisharp or weavile to make a mon worth its niche, it doesn't make that mon look great.

 

[Cookees]

gonna go ahead and steal your format

• if you're not running max attack (which you aren't) then jab isn't doing anything to clef and if you're running max attack you lose out on significant bulk making it harder to check stuff like dragonium zygarde, banded smart strike kart etc.
• weavile and mamo are less threatening vs stall when you got skarm celesteela clefable and/or toxapex (in the case of weavile) walling 1v1ing them. don't see why i need a dedicated answer to them
• you can beat all of those mons barring zygarde with helmet tangrowth on one set: sleep powder, knock, giga, fire. sd gliscor doesn't beat you because it can't roost without losing flying type and lando doesn't beat you period. and kart and sciz don't ko with +2 boosted attacks so hp fire and sleep powder are free respectively. also if you're running stall that loses to sd sciz idk what ur doing man. bisharp is a moot point.
• also buzzwole doesn't even kill kart with drain punch so the corkscrew crash point doesn't make much sense.

to sum it up, i think as a ground type answer tangrowth is pretty much always better, and while buzzwole might compress some roles on a stall team, it gives up a lot of potential for a teamslot.

another point id like to make is just how much of the ou tier forces out the buzzwole set you mentioned (other sets might beat these mons but we're talking buzzwole on stall right now). all of heatran, koko, clefable, ash gren, tapu lele, zapdos, toxapex, hawlucha, tornadus-t, mega medicham, and tapu fini force buzzwole out and can come in on at least one move, and thats just from the 20 most used mons in the tier. so for what are you using buzzwole then? is it really worth it to waste a teamslot to lose to all of these pokemon just to check kartana and zygarde? finally, when you need something like bisharp or weavile to make a mon worth its niche, it doesn't make that mon look great.

Alright, this will be my last reply. Your formatting is better than your previous post.

• You're assuming that you will have other teammates to cover Tangrowth's weakness to Mamoswine and Weavile, but this is not the case in many scenarios. Some balance, semi-stall or stall teams do not have that luxury.
• The set that you mentioned doesn't defeat Zygarde and Bisharp, do you expect other team members to check them as well? Why not just use Buzzwole to compartmentalise all these threats and dedicate team positions for other threats.
• +2 252 Atk Kartana Corkscrew Crash (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 212+ Def Tangrowth: 373-439 (92.5 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO, so it's a roll without hazards. Kartana will walk straight through your team, unless you have a separate check for it.
• It's true that Buzzwole does not OHKO with Drain Punch, but it does a very hefty amount. Next turn Kartana will attack and take damage from Rocky Helmet, leaving it either fainted if it entered on hazards or extremely low and vulnerable to another Rocky / Barb / Priority.
• As I mentioned Tangrowth can't take SD Scizor because it deals a lot with +2 U-Turn if it SDs on switch. Then it can come back later and Tangrowth will be too low to check. You're assuming again you have teammates to assist you solve this problem, but this will only be for stall, and you will be in trouble if a Magnezone takes out your Skarm.
• You listed a bunch of threats that force out Buzzwole like Heatran, Zapdos, Tornadus etc. that can come in on at least one move, but doesn't this also apply to Tangrowth too?

You argue that Buzzwole does not deserve a C rank as it is completely outclassed by Tangrowth, but this is not the case. With Buzzwole you can check a significant number of threats with a single Pokemon. Whereas Tangrowth will be forced to rely on several teammates to assist with addressing these issues.

 

[BlueLobster]

Completely support the buzzwole nom, been saying it should be ranked for ages. It has a great niche on stall and even on balance teams, and in general is a difficult mon to face due to the volume of what it checks while also threatening switchins.

.
other point id like to make is just how much of the ou tier forces out the buzzwole set you mentioned (other sets might beat these mons but we're talking buzzwole on stall right now). all of heatran, koko, clefable, ash gren, tapu lele, zapdos, toxapex, hawlucha, tornadus-t, mega medicham, and tapu fini force buzzwole out and can come in on at least one move, and thats just from the 20 most used mons in the tier. so for what are you using buzzwole then? is it really worth it to waste a teamslot to lose to all of these pokemon just to check kartana and zygarde? finally, when you need something like bisharp or weavile to make a mon worth its niche, it doesn't make that mon look great.

Anyone switching in Heatran, ash gren or mmedi (or even koko and lele cause pjab exists) are not in a good spot considering how much buzz can do to these and it would literally take one predict to most likely win the game by either doing a ton or koing their switchin. To add them to a list of things that come in on buzz is extraordinary misleading. With a little prediction that list becomes a whole lot smaller since they are really shaky checks at best.

 

[Scuba Diver]

I’m not necessarily advocating for an immediate drop yet because Zeraora isn’t ranked yet, but I think its release should probably further push Manectric down (C+ to C or C-). It was already kind of hard to build with Manectric this gen when Koko brought so much more utility and power to the table but Manectric was 5 points faster with fire coverage. We now have yet another mono electric mon who is even faster than Manectric and has fire, fighting and grass coverage (not walled by gastro and tar) and can hold an item.

It’s just a really, really tiny niche now of having intimidate but being faster than Koko. Manectric also faces heavy competition for the mega slot rn between Latios and Alakazam being super viable picks, I just think C+ is just way too much.

 

[Draskk]

Seriously lol why is Blace in the same rank as useless shit like M-Mane, Shuckle, and Skarmory, it at least has a sizable niche (being able to blow apart stall while pressuring offense and balance) and doesn't get completely outclassed. Don't get me wrong the mon has alot of flaws but it's still better than C+ imo.

Blace C+ --> B-

B- makes the most sense to me, Blace seems more at home there with stuff like Volc and Terrak than it is in C+

P.S why exactly is Kingdra in B rain is bad atm for the reasons mellowyellowhd stated earlier in the thread and even if rain was good rn there's basically no reason to use it over stuff like ash gren qwil koko and pert


MManectric from C+ to C/C-: Agree

Same reasons Scuba Diver stated, this mon's niche is extremely tiny w/ the release of Zeraora and honestly I can see it being unranked too

Shuckle from C+ to C/C-:

Webs has been losing both viability and popularity extremely fast over the last month or so, having an incredibly hard time with the rise in usage of screens HO and countermeasures to common Webs mons like Mimikyu and Bisharp being extremely common (i.e fat Scarf Lando, Tran, Tangrowth, etc) and Araquanid+Suicide Lando is much better than Shuckle on 90% of Webs teams anyways tbh, since that combo has an actual offensive presence.

 

[N_Mareanie]

Blace C+ --> B-

B --> B- / C+

P.S why exactly is Kingdra in B rain is bad atm for the reasons mellowyellowhd stated earlier in the thread and even if rain was good rn there's basically no reason to use it over stuff like ash gren qwil koko and pert

Yes.
While Kingdra ofcourse still offers its extremely hard hitting water STAB under rain, it's nowhere as useful as other rain abusers like it was before. Qwilfish is better on rain than it, soo...

C --> C+ / B-
Qwilfish offers a way more useful niche on rain than Kingdra does, being able to actually threaten the 'mons that annoy rain a lot, like Growth, Pex, Ferro and Bulu. Z-Explosion into Explosion either weakens or kills all of these 'mons, to the point where other rain abusers like AshGren or MegaPert can come and try to clean without as much trouble.

B --> B- / C+
You barely see this thing, and even when you see it in some actual tour plays, it fails to do anything as significant as the other B-ranked 'mons can do. It's mainly seen on stall, and I find it hard to fit on balance / bulky offense, since I'd rather use something like Pex or Gastro. Grassium Tran getting more usage isn't good for this thing either. Because the meta is more preparing for Gastro, it's also hurting Alo.

A --> A-
Hawlucha just has a bit harder time right now than first. Clef usage being at all time high, Mega Lati's being amazing and Pex still Hazing on it all stop it from immediately sweeping. People have prepared enough for this and it's not the banworthy 'mon it was a few months ago. I think a drop is fair, to put it on levels of Gliscor and Mega Latias.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

DISCUSSION POINTS

A --> A+
Hard agree. This thing is amazing, being able to dish out so much damage while also checking some of the most prominent threats rn. Best mega atm imo, should've moved up last update.

A- --> A
Agree. ModestZam is insanely strong, and with Recover it can basically wall Tran and deal with Mega Latios fairly well, two of the best Pokémon in the meta imo. Really solid pick right now.

A+ --> S
Agree. Clef has once again risen to being one of the best Pokémon in the meta. It's just so easy to set up rocks with this thing. Being able to take so many hits from the likes of Zygarde, Lucha or even Mega Latis is really amazing. In love with this thing, move it up.

B+ --> B
Don't agree. Not yet, at least. I think it's still a tiny bit too early to drop it. In a few weeks we'll probably just see like no Gastrodon's anymore, but for the time being I wouldn't drop it just yet, though I understand why it's a discussion point.

 

[MultiAmmiratore]

Gonna support c- barbaracle.
I used it a lot even if just in a memey team and it can def be really threatening... just want to point taunt>cross chop as an option to set up vs skarm, defensive mew lacking ep, chansey and other passive mons... obviously kart checks you now but you can work around it.
I Also really liked bulu support, grassy terrein lets you set up vs Lando and some other ground types while also giving it some passive Recovery that can let it Live attacks like (non-trasformed)ashninja's water shuriken and other priorities.
I'll post some replays in a few days since I can't now

 

[Jordy]

N_Mareanie sniped me and literally read my mind.

()→A+
Definitely feel that this Pokemon should rise to A+, considering it fits on a wide variety of teams, can switch into Heatran, and most importantly, never doesn't do anything. It always finds a way to pressure the opposing team even if that team does have a "counter". This is especially true when considering that most Pokemon that want to be switching into Mega Latios are relatively easy to take advantage of. I won't talk too much about this considering I'd just be repeating others.

→A+
Weirdly enough, this hasn't been talked about yet. With the semi-recent discovery of SpDef Tapu Bulu, this Pokemon has found its way on a good amount of teams. It's been used a stunning amount of times in recent WCoP games and has proven how effective it is time and time again, to the point where it really stands out as the best Pokemon in A rank(apart from Mega Latios), and on par with a few in A+.

→B-/C+
Kingdra usually finds itself outclassed on a majority of the rain teams by Ash-Greninja. Its damage output is rather mediocre and the fact that teams usually carry a resist to its dual STABs means its never really breaking through much, unless the team has been significantly weakened prior. The fact that it has to run a Choice-item to have any notable damage output is also detrimental, specifically for rain teams as this usually tends to sack momentum.

→C/C-
I don't think the niche that Shuckle brings to Sticky Webs teams is notable enough to rank it on par with Araquanid. The fact that it compresses Stealth Rock and Sticky Webs into one slot may prove useful, sometimes. Sticky Webs teams usually disregard Shuckle for Araquanid, and pair it with Landorus-T, which are generally more consistent at getting up both hazards. The fact that Sticky Webs teams usually don't need an extra Pokemon outside of the usual sweepers + Araquanid and Landorus-T also doesn't help Shuckle's case.

→C
Nothing has really changed for Alolan Marowak over the past couple of months but it's definitely out of place in C+, especially when both the Trick Room setters are in C rank. Considering Alolan Marowak is never seen on any other teams than Trick Room, it should be ranked alongside them.

→UR

• Sharpedo-Mega is literally not even a used Pokemon.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Mega Lopp B+ -> B/B-I swear, this thing is honestly just trash rn and nowhere near as good as it used to be, the Latis are huge rn and so is Kzam, clef is also on her way of claiming back the queen of Pokemon title, these things mean that Lop has a really bad case of 4mss as it needs Ice to tickle Lando and the Latis, and it needs Encore+PUP to actually overcome clef but it's still mediocre in the end, the fact that it has no bulk in this meta is also bloody awful for it as it provides more or less no defensive value for a team, it's outclassed as a anti-offense mon by kazam and is honestly just useless overall, move it down.

I also agree with Qwilfish up and Kingdra down, that shit should have happened a long time ago.

On the Topic of Zam and Lati, while Latios is indeed a good mega, I think it's a bit too overhyped for A+ and I believe that it's more at home in A however i'm not exactly against it rising I do believe that it needs to prove itself more first, I do however believe that Zam should 100% rise to A alongside Latios as it's good for many of the reasons Latios is good.

Hawlucha should also move down to A-, It dislikes many of the things that makes Lopp bad, but honestly it's still much more solid unlike Lopp and doesn't suffer as badly.

Volcanion B- -> C+Volcanion rised a while ago bc it threatened pex and a few other mons, however I believe it should go back to C+ due to some very important factors.
A. The Latis are huge rn and wall it
B.Mkazam can easily pivot into it's water attacks
C. It's honestly just outclassed by other special wallbreakers such as Char Y and Blace (who are also threatening fire types). In the Current meta I believe that Blace and Char Y are honestly being somewhat overhated and should rise up to B- as they are threatening and rather decent in the current meta.
It honestly just lost a lot of the power it had that made it rise and I believe a drop should be justified for it.

Mega Mane C+ -> C-/Unrank tbh.This thing is honestly trash rn and there is no reason to use it, it's niche was being faster than koko and having fire coverage, now comes a Faster electric mon with fire and fighting coverage, who doesn't take up a mega slot and has a couple viable sets, I know that Zera is not ranked yet, but it's existence honestly just makes Mane worthless, all it has is Intimidate since with LO zera is stronger than Mmane. MMane has somehow managed to become harder to build around and either a drop or unrank should happen to the dog.

Bulu A-> A+ And as I was writing this jordy sniped me and nommed bulu before me, in any event, Move bulu up bc this thing is fantastic.

 

[ToadNorton]

B -> B+
Mew is a very underrated pokemon atm. It can switch in on rising threats such as mega-alakazam without shadow ball and mega-latios without draco. It has reliable recovery and can remove rocks or put them up. It also switch in on certain zygarde sets as well as lando-t. It can carry earth power to hit heatran as well. It also switches in on most lele sets expect for specs. All in all, mew is a pretty good pokemon atm, that can switch in to some rising threats rn.

Calcs

252 SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 156-184 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recover
252 SpA Alakazam-Mega Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 92-108 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 86-102 (21.4 - 25.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-Black Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Ske]

Here's A Quick Nomination

A > A+
Some of you beat the BuluMan to it but yeah i strongly agree, SD Spdef Tapu Bulu is amazing right now. SD Spdef Tapu Bulu is in my opinion a fearsome Set-Up Sweeper that has amazing defensive utility & can destroy some teams by itself. Grassium-Z at +2 can destroy Tornadus & Mega Latios and when paired with Magnezone it can auto win a number of games. Even protect is a rising option so Tapu Bulu can check mons like Mega-Alakazam which is spammed atm, Rise it to A+.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

I'll echo some noms and give one of my own:

Tapu Bulu A -> A+
Even though playing with Mega Latios and Zeraora is very fun for me right now, the Spdef SD set is amazing, I think it is enough to warrant a rise. Just being able to take on powerful meta threats and being more powerful than AV is pretty good for Bulu.

Mega Mane C+ -> C/C-
Bruh the last thing Mega Mane needed was another offensive electric type better than it in the tier. Yet here we are, a previously stated it lost it's niche as an offensive electric type with fire coverage, and Zeraora happens to have Fighting coverage too. Yep this thing is pretty much gone. Btw can't wait to see where Zeraora ends up in OU

Mega Latios A -> A+
I may be biased on this one (I love playing with him) but he is AMAZING. He represents a real meta threat to most Pokemon in the game. Now that Psychic Spam is rising again, this man sure can ride the wave to A+.

My Nom:
Mega Latias A- -> A
Mega Latias has really piqued my interest. As mentioned with psychic spam rising, so should she. She has two excellent sets to choose from, and can keep the opponent guessing with all the possible moves she could be running. Her Calm Mind sweeper set is insane, a couple boosts and that can be game. Her roost + three attacks set is like Zapdos', efficient, bulky, and able to take out the right mons. Overall, I think she is deserving of a rise with Mega Latios too.

 

[LordHelix]

Im glad my boy heatran finally rose to S, long overdue tbh

Btw i have an interesting nom i wanted to share with you all

Altaria-Mega from C- -> C/C+

I think alot of meta trends so far has been favoring altaria, most notable changes and what it can do against them

• Switches in relatively free against ash greninja/heatran and defogs (whereas they set up free hazards on gastro switch)
• Can switch in into both zards which are on the rise rn
• Can switch in and beat both mega latios (non ice beam) and tornadus (after z)
• Beats spdef bulu and tangrowth which take advantage of gastro but cant do much to alt
• Choice specs on koko is decreasing in favor for shuca
• And best of all, toxapex usage is decreasing

Cons:

• Clefable being everywhere is hell for it, even tho altaria takes like 40 only from moonblast it still cant hurt it or defog on it reliably, at least alt can para it
• Landorus is still a common mon and defensive sets 2hkos it with just a lil bit of chip
• Modest alakazam kinda shits on it with a 40% chance to 2hko after sr
• Hates toxic, and gets volt switched on
• Uses mega slot :(

calcs for nerds

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega: 117-138 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Altaria-Mega in Sun: 91-108 (25.7 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Latios-Mega Psychic vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 121-144 (34.1 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 58-69 (16.3 - 19.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and trapping damage

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 81-96 (22.8 - 27.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 150-176 (42.3 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 0 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Altaria-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 140-165 (39.5 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

Best set imo

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 236 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Defog

Simple set, body slam paras everything, speed evs + eq to beat spdef heatran, and everything else dumped into hp/spd

In general i found altarias role compression to be nice, more specifically can beat both heatran and ash gren like gastro but at the same time can beat grasses and can defog

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-775155989
How it fares against standard clef/torn/gastro core and puts in work by defogging vs both clef and greninja

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-775171913
Not a great replay ik but basically shows how alt is like, just defogs and paras all day

 

[Lil Infant Tylenol]

Clefable from A+ to S Disagree
Clef is a mon that is extremely versatile and can fit on every playstyle. However, I feel that it is just a shade below stuff like Heatran and Lando-T. Heatran is impossible to switch into and has great defensive typing. Lando-T can basically do whatever the team needs. However, I feel that Clefable has a few weaknesses that hold it back. Strong physical attackers can just overpower clefable and a lot of top tier mons are very safe switch ins to clef. It is hard to wear down, but I just its not as good as the other 2 S ranks.
Alakazam-Mega from A- to A Agree
This is a top tier threat and deserves the S rank. It is in a speed tier by itself and its 175 sp atk allows it to break through everything (except Celesteela). Its really good and dont really know what else to add.

 

[Nuked]

Here's a couple of my thoughts on some nominations that are going on right now:

Clefable --> S - Disagree

I know Clef does pretty much everything, but I have a hard time with Clefable being S in a meta where Heatran is as good as it is right now. In addition to this, Celesteela, Kartana, Magearna, and Mega Scizor are also still very viable and prevalent Pokemon, which means that Clefable is usually going to have a good answer to it in any matchup, and Mawile being used a little bit more than before is also bad for it. Basically, I think that the million extremely viable Steel-types prevents it from being on the level that Heatran and Landorus-T are. It's really easy to fit onto a team, but so is the rest of A+, which makes it fall short of S in my eyes.

Celesteela --> A+ - Agree

I don't have much to say about Celesteela rising that Charmflash didn't already say, but I just wanted to voice my support for this. Celesteela is such an amazing Pokemon and almost always puts in work. Please rise.

Tapu Bulu --> A+ - Slightly Agree

I'm not as on-board for this as I am Celesteela but I feel like its prevalence matches the rest of A+ (besides maybe Clefable and Tornadus-T) and I think its viability is more close to the A+ Pokemon than the A Pokemon currently.

Mega Manectric --> C- / Unranked - Agree

Mega Manectric has failed to carve a niche for itself for many months now and overall it's just a bad Pokemon with very little use. I don't think it's particularly bad in itself, but I don't think that outspeeding Ash-Greninja and having Intimidate is enough to be worth using over Tapu Koko, especially when it takes the Mega slot, which could be used on Mega Latios or Mega Scizor.

Mega Alakazam --> A - Agree

Mega Alakazam is extremely good at pressuring bulky builds because it checks Toxapex extremely well and also can find ways to stay healthy over the course of a long match. I also think it has the underrated niche of being threatening to the occasional rain build. Basically, Trace makes it stupidly good alongside its ridiculous Special Attack and Speed stats alongside its great coverage, and I think it's easily better than most of A- and even some of A.

I also think Tangrowth is really good right now, but I'm not sure if it's quite A rank. Besides that I don't really have many opinions right now.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Here's a couple of my thoughts on some nominations that are going on right now:

Clefable --> S - Disagree

I know Clef does pretty much everything, but I have a hard time with Clefable being S in a meta where Heatran is as good as it is right now. In addition to this, Celesteela, Kartana, Magearna, and Mega Scizor are also still very viable and prevalent Pokemon, which means that Clefable is usually going to have a good answer to it in any matchup, and Mawile being used a little bit more than before is also bad for it. Basically, I think that the million extremely viable Steel-types prevents it from being on the level that Heatran and Landorus-T are. It's really easy to fit onto a team, but so is the rest of A+, which makes it fall short of S in my eyes.

Celesteela --> A+ - Agree

I don't have much to say about Celesteela rising that Charmflash didn't already say, but I just wanted to voice my support for this. Celesteela is such an amazing Pokemon and almost always puts in work. Please rise.

Tapu Bulu --> A+ - Slightly Agree

I'm not as on-board for this as I am Celesteela but I feel like its prevalence matches the rest of A+ (besides maybe Clefable and Tornadus-T) and I think its viability is more close to the A+ Pokemon than the A Pokemon currently.

Mega Manectric --> C- / Unranked - Agree

Mega Manectric has failed to carve a niche for itself for many months now and overall it's just a bad Pokemon with very little use. I don't think it's particularly bad in itself, but I don't think that outspeeding Ash-Greninja and having Intimidate is enough to be worth using over Tapu Koko, especially when it takes the Mega slot, which could be used on Mega Latios or Mega Scizor.

Mega Alakazam --> A - Agree

Mega Alakazam is extremely good at pressuring bulky builds because it checks Toxapex extremely well and also can find ways to stay healthy over the course of a long match. I also think it has the underrated niche of being threatening to the occasional rain build. Basically, Trace makes it stupidly good alongside its ridiculous Special Attack and Speed stats alongside its great coverage, and I think it's easily better than most of A- and even some of A.

I also think Tangrowth is really good right now, but I'm not sure if it's quite A rank. Besides that I don't really have many opinions right now.

Just want to point out, that an Electric type outspeeding Ash-Greninja isn't even a special niche anymore, when Zeraora is a thing (Which I'm pretty sure is the second fastest non-scarfer in the tier). I guess you can say I'm in agreement for an Unranked of Mega Manectric.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Clefable A+ > S: Agree
Why absolutely. It has become a stable to Balance and possibly even brought Balance to become one of the most defining playstyles. It already offers Rock and Wish support in one mon, and this is even bigger than ever since most of OU defensive top tiers from S and A+ lack recovery, so neglecting a weakness from Heatran, Lando, Ferrothorn, etc makes it highly splashable. It even functions as a win-con with its Calm Mind/Cosmic Power set. It deserves to get its crown back.

Mega-Latios A > A+: Agree
Mega-Latios is not one of the best, but the absolute best mega in OU. It’s so easily splashable on teams cause of his wide movepool and well rounded stats. The only thing that comes close to its versatility is Landorus-T and Heatran. It has it all. Want to OHKO Zygarde without using Draco, Ice Beam. Need to hit Heatran and Tyranitar hard, Earthquake, want to hit even harder on the special side, Calm Mind. It could possibly be S rank

Now for noms of my own.

Toxapex A+ > A
Almost nothing has favored Toxapex lately besides Heatran favoring Solar Beam over Earth Power for Gastrodon. Psychic types on the meta has seen a resurgence and most of OU offensive powerhouses beat Toxapex if they aren’t burnt physical attackers. It can still be useful for setting up T Spikes, but it is just not the dominating force it once was, especially since Magearna is seeing a decline.

Weavile B+ > A-
Weavile is the opposite of Toxapex, it is even better with the new meta trends. Not only is it’s speed tier and it’s offensive typing starting to show it’s true colors with the rise of Psychic types and grass types, but Magearna and Hawlucha are starting to lose relevance. The tier has become more defensive and more slow. Already popular OU mons like Lando, Tornadus, and the Mega-Lati twins all have to eat it’s Icicle Crash. Even Clefable has to worry about being flinched. Weavile is still good and will always be good.

Mega-Gyarados/Gyarados B/B+ > B+/A-
These two alone make a deadly combo. Both should either be B+ or A- cause they have a great number of mons that they can easily set up on thanks to their bulk and typing. But the strongest aspect about these two is the unpredictability. When a player stumbles upon Gyarados, he/she has to figure out if it is Flyium, or Mega. Guessing wrong would potentially lead to a loss. Such underrated threats.

Volcanion B- > C+
Being able to beat non-Toxic Toxapex is no longer special, nearly every offensive threat beats Toxapex. Volcanion is also completely walled by the Mega-Lati twins and Gastrodon if it doesn’t run HP Grass. But it is still hard to switch into if you don’t have Mega-Latios/Latias or Gastrodon on their team so it’s still viable.

Alolan-Muk C > C+
It looks like imo that A-Muk can redeem itself in the meta after a long time. Here’s what has changed for this blob of Crayola.

-Psychic types have become more prominent in the meta, since Mega-Zam, Lele, and Mega-Latios/Latias have found ways to counter act Heatran and Tyranitar.

-Muk has received Ice Punch from tutors allowing it to 2HKO Zygarde and Gliscor.

-Poison/Dark has very few resistances besides Mega-Mawile which can be handled by Fire Blast (Yes A-Muk gets that) on top of having a 30% chance to poison an opponent.

-Toxapex has been sunken down due to how little opportunities it has to switch in. This gives Muk more room as a defensive poison type.

-Many prominent threats such as Koko, Bulu, Ash/Protean Greninja, and even an unboosted Kartana lose to Alolan-Muk.

-Clefable and Tornadus have rose to dominance way after Alolan-Muk dropped both great partners for Muk with one supporting rocks and wish support and the other removes hazards and provides a ground immunity for it.

I’m nominating it for the classic AV set but with a minor twist.

Muk-Alola @ Assault Vest
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 200 HP / 192 Def / 116 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab/Gunk Shot
- Ice Punch/Fire Blast/Brick Break
- Pursuit

Knock Off is mandatory for Muk, Pursuit is what makes A-Muk, Muk, Poison Jab is a STAB move that has a 60% chance to poison the opponent thanks to Poison Point, you can also run Gunk Shot instead to 2HKO Clefable. Ice Punch can be an option for Zygarde and Gliscor, Fire Blast is for Steel types, Brick Break can be used to damage to Heatran some more. The ev spread is centered towards physical defense so that Mega-Latios’ Earthquake is only a 3HKO. Alolan-Muk isn’t 4x weak to Fighting as Ttar and isn’t frail like Weavile giving it a great niche as a Pursuit trapper and special sponge. I hope in the future people realize it’s potential.

Oh and one more thing.

Why hasn’t Scolipede rose yet?

 

[Vengeance417]

Jirachi from B- to B:

While it doesn't appreciate mons like Lando, Heatran, and Zygarde being so prominent (although it does have U-turn access to pivot out of them and Body Slam has a very good chance of Paralyzing them on the switch), it's really appreciating the rise of Psychic-type threats in the Mega Latis, Mega Zam, and Tapu Lele as well as Clefable being one of the premier rockers now, as Jirachi is a very good anti-lead vs Clef. Healing Wish provides phenomenal support once this mon's no longer needed to win the game, allowing its teammates to play more offensively. It can also use regular Wish which has been an increasingly-popular tech to better sustain itself from EQ Mega Latios and Shadow Ball Mega Zam/Lele while healing up its fellow Lando, Bulu, and others that don't have reliable recovery without sacrificing itself. To top it off, it can set up Stealth Rock, although I believe its Wish/Protect/Iron Head/U-turn or Body Slam set is the best one right now. Jirachi also has favorable matchups vs Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, and Z-move Kyurem-B.

Leo edit: edited out the response to a deleted post

 

[paoisd]

I'm gonna make some noms mostly based off of what i've seen so far during olt. These changes may go back to normal once olt is over but i feel like for now these noms are pretty reasonable.
magearna up to A+
Although assault vest is still pretty good, that is not the reason this should rise back up to A+. The reason that this deserves a rise is that it is so popular and so good on all the hyper offense teams being spammed on the ladder right now. This thing is great on webs, dual screens, trick room, veil etc. Also, it has so many different sets it can run. Shift gear leftovers, shift gear any z move, offensive trick room, shift gear calm mind, and it can choose between fire steel ice electric fighting and fairy coverage. This mon is really great right now like it has always been and i think it should reflect this. (it is also really good on normal bulky offense teams as all these sets still work there.)

mega scizor to A+
I feel like right now mega scizor is the best mega in the whole tier, or at least very close. I believe that if mega latios should rise (which i absolutely think it should) that this should rise along with it. Curse mega scizor is actually so great as it can beat most balance teams once the bulky water/steel types is gone which is pretty easy to do with the prevelance of tapu bulu, zapdos, heatran, zygarde etc. It also kind of just beats a lot of hyper offense teams because it can set up on a lot of common physical attackers like landorus, zygarde, and even stuff like alolan ninetales. I really feel like this as well as mega latios should both rise up as i feel they are a step above every other mega in the tier.

Garchomp up to B
This is controversial but rocky helmet garchomp is in a really amazing spot. I talked about it a lot in my post over here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-metagame-discussion.3621042/page-22 so just read that.

Jirachi up to B or even B+
This is just absolutely fantastic right now. It is so splashable and can fit on every style of team, even HO (but you really shouldn't use it there because offensive sets aren't great). Again, talked about it in my post here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-metagame-discussion.3621042/page-22 so read that and i would just like to add on to that a little bit. The fact that lele and magearna are getting more popular is great for this as it is one of the best checks to those right now. Also, i think that B- was just to low for it in the first place so this is a necessary rise in my eyes. Although it looks like a lot of things are unfavorable for it in the meta right now, if you have this on your team it will always put in work.

Blacephalon up to B
I know that everyone here loves to hate on this mon and it probably won't rise, but i'm gonna try my best to push for it because it really deserves one. I think it's best sets right now are sub calm mind z move speed boosting set or just normal sub calm mind z move spatk boosting set, but the normal scarf and specs sets are also still good. This mon is just so amazing and splashable on HO right now that it is really due for a rise. It can snowball unprepared teams and it pretty much beats stall by itself. Not to mention it is also great against balance and it is unpredictable with it's set. This thing really should rise to at least B- but i think B suits it more. Also, this is benefited by the rise in jirachi tapu bulu and scizor.

Mega gyara up to B+
This pokemon is always good during olt because hyper offense is always spammed during olt and this is amazing on hyper offense. It works on literally every kind of hyper offense and is the best mega pokemon on every kind of hyper offense (mega ttar is it's only real competition for that slot). It can either sweep late game with it's great bulk allowing it to set up dragon dances or it can break holes early in a game so it's teammates can sweep. With veil or screens up this is virtually impossible to OHKO and most of the time super effective attacks don't even 2HKO.

Serperior up to B- or higher
I don't really know what's changed for this other than the use of more HO teams that it's been great on, but the huge spike in usage as well as it's effectiveness on said HO teams is really great for this mon and it just seems very effective right now. The most popular set is sub glare leech seed leaf storm and it's pretty great and i guess people just discovered this mon's true potential and started using it and realized it is actually just a great pokemon right now.

tapu fini up to B+
This is a big rise but i think it is extremely, extremely well deserved. Tapu fini is definitely one of my favorite mons in the meta right now and it is absolutely fantastic. It is a great switch in and blanket check to almost everything right now, a great defogger, great at breaking through many prominent bulky cores, and provides amazing support to teams with misty terrain. Some meta changes that are good for it are the rises in zygarde and heatran (other than z bloom doom of course). I go more in depth in my post here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usum-metagame-discussion.3621042/page-22 so read that and please rise this at least to B but preferably to B+.

I am just going to give my opinion on a couple noms that have already been made:

muk up: yes
charizard x up: yes
clefable up: yes
alakazam up: yes

I am not at the top of the ladder right now so my views may be a little bit skewed but i feel like im at a high enough point where i have a good grasp of the meta and i am confident in all of these noms

 

[Lemon Ginger]

Mega Aerodactyl should move up. Maybe C- to C or better

Why?

• one of the few things that can come in on nearly all heatran safely
• With mega Zam running modest more often, this is now the de facto fastest mon in the tier
• Can switch on torn T and not get U-turned on. Can also set rocks on it. lot of torn t these days
• has coverage to ding popular stuff like clef, kart, gliscor if you want
• nice against those cheesy HO teams with volc. gyara, blace and mega pinsir

I don't think hone claws sets are that great right now. Too bad it doesnt get BraveBirb, but whatever

 

[robofiend]

Mega Aerodactyl should move up. Maybe C- to C or better

Why?

• one of the few things that can come in on nearly all heatran safely
• With mega Zam running modest more often, this is now the de facto fastest mon in the tier
• Can switch on torn T and not get U-turned on. Can also set rocks on it. lot of torn t these days
• has coverage to ding popular stuff like clef, kart, gliscor if you want
• nice against those cheesy HO teams with volc. gyara, blace and mega pinsir

I don't think hone claws sets are that great right now. Too bad it doesnt get BraveBirb, but whatever

I've used M-Aero a bit too recently and I agree that it should move up. 3 Attacks + Roost is great, it switches in on Heatran without Flash Cannon, it lures Lando-T with Ice Fang - 2HKOing most variants, and it has a decent movepool to break down enemy walls. Ice Fang itself is an amazing move because it compresses Stone Edge and Wing Attack's coverage pretty well, easily 2HKOing Torn-T, M-Latios, Lando-T, Tapu Bulu, Gliscor, Zygarde and Zapdos (most are OHKO's after rocks). This gets rid of Stone Edge's main flaw (inaccuracy) and justifies a moveslot spent on Wing Attack (better Grass coverage) or Pursuit (to ruin Megazam/M-Latios). With an Adamant nature it speed ties with M-Zam and Ash-Gren, allowing it to play like a Physical M-Zam, switching in on things that can't touch it (Tran, Torn-T, Lando, Gliscor etc.), healing off damage, and firing off an attack. With a Jolly nature it gets to take down Zera and Lopunny, but they're not huge threats in my book so I opt for that extra ounce of firepower.

The only thing is that M-Aero will never be as good as Zam because it lacks Zam's cool ability, takes 25% from SR any time it comes in, and its firepower pales in comparison to Zam's - who OHKO's most of its checks and counters with Modest Focus Blast. Aero is always going to have a problem with M-Scizor, Ferrothorn, Magearna from full health, and any reasonably beefy mon with Ice Beam or a Water attack. But it's definitely good enough to move up to C.

 

[ffgcsdt9]

Discussion Points:

Clefable A+ to S : Disagree
This is tricky so whilst I’m leaning towards Clef staying in A, I wouldn’t overly mind it rising to S rank. It’s obviously a brilliant rocker and the best wish passer in the tier, abuses stall and is a big reason balance is such a popular play style. Therefore its influence on the meta can justify it rising to S but there are some flaws that make me hesitant. It’s fairly easily overwhelmed by strong physical attackers like MegaMedi and ZardX, easily pressured and very susceptible to taunt/knock off. Zyagrde now opting for iron trail/steelium-Z is also a pretty big problem for it. It’s great, but not on the level of Heatran or LandoT.

Latios-Mega A to A+ : Agree
Probably the best mega in the tier and a very good option especially since the mega slot is a lot more free. Great all round stats, speed tier, movepool, reliable recovery. It can hit practically everything and is a great answer to Heatran as it has access earthquake. Ice beam keeps Lando, Zygarde and Gliscor in check and psychic is really spammable rn. It also partners well with many mons like Zone, Lele, Tran and even Zeraora. It’s only real issue is that it has to be careful of U-turn and pursuit trappers.


Alakazam-Mega A- to A : Agree
Mega-Zam is in a great place right now and 100% deserves to rise (Imo I wouldn’t mind it in A+ alongside Mega Latios). Not only does modest hits like a truck but its insane speed tier allows it to drop some speed for that extra firepower. Trace shenanigans help it switch into Heatran reliably which is always nice and allow it to regain some health against Toxapex and other regen mons. The current absence of fast scarfers is also nice as apart from Greninja and Lando, Mega-Zam has the luxury of hitting first. Every meta trans seems to favour Zam right now so I’d like to see it rise


Gastrodon B+ to B : Disagree
Gastrodon is still a fantastic mon in the current meta and still more than deserves the B+ subrank. The recent trend of Waterium-Z, Gunk Shot Ash-Greninja and Z-Dig/Low kick Protein Greninja definitely go in favour of Gastrodon being one of, if not the most reliable Greninja check in the tier. Bulu now fears gunk shot, Pex fears dig and ferro fears low kick which is often run for Heatran. Heatran moving to S is great for Gastrodon too as it is one of the most reliable switch ins as it only fears Grassium-Z variants. The recent surge of Bulu and Tangrowth aren’t great for it but both fear being toxic’d on the switch in and the former doesn’t want to switch into scald. Overall Gastrodon is still really solid and performs its job well so I don’t think it warrants a drop, at least not yet.

Other Noms:

Hawlucha A to A- : Agree
Hawlucha struggles to sweep a bit more than it used to. The rise of Clefable and Mega-Latios isn’t great for it, neither is bulky Z-fly LandoT. Toxapex can still haze away and fish for scald burns. Also the rise in Bulu stops its best partner, Koko, from keeping terrain up for Lucha. Overall I think recent trends haven’t been kind on Lucha so I think a drop is justified.


Tapu Bulu A to A+ : Agree
With the discovery of its now SpDef swords dance set Bulu can now not only provide great support in checking Koko and other special attackers but it can also sweep opposing teams with relative ease. It is able to break through much of the meta with superpower and horn leech at +2 which really helps with late game cleaning. Also being able to use synthesis and hold lefties really increase its longevity in matches. Gastrodon, who’s surged in viability, also makes a good partner, being able to better check some special attackers, keeping it healthy to set up and clean later in the game.

 

[curiosity]

Clefable is definitely a fantastic option and is honestly the quintessential utility 'mon. The unparalleled utility it provides balance is irreplaceable. The ability to set up guaranteed rocks, provide its teammates with fantastic healing support and serve as a compressed defensive check to some of the tier's most influential breakers while serving as a fantastic stallbreaker is just incredible. Being one of the few rockers that is able to reliably beat and set rocks versus sableye is an incredible niche that no other rocker (sans offensive rocks tran) possesses and ensures that clefable serves as one of the best stallbreakers available to balance. The utility of Wish is an incredible asset that improves the matchup versus just about every common and viable team archetype currently available in the tier - against offence and opposing balance, you vastly invalidate common methods of breaking past walls, including chip damage and just hitting them hard, by doubling on the correct turn. Speaking of doubling, when combined with entry hazards, you might as well endlessly double against stall, because that's all you really need to break it open, especially if paired with another magic guard abuser or a regen mon. Continuing on with the theme of annoying stall, calm mind essentially invalidates a large majority of stall staples, as you now have the means to reliably 1v1 just about everything with hazards, excluding the obvious staples such as celesteela and chansey. Its defensive utility should also not be understated, considering that it has the means to reliably check the large majority of the tier, most notably balance beakers such as zygarde and mega latios (after a single calm mind boost) find it incredibly difficult to do anything versus balance due to it just sapping momentum and pp. In short, I believe it has the potential to be an excellent contender for the esteemed S rank.

Gastrodon is undeniably in a tight situation - on one hand, it's still one of the best blanket checks to a large portion of the meta that isn't entirely passive or even a momentum drain, but on the other hand, it's just not great anymore. Not only are most builds prepared to break past it, but the 'mons it's supposed to check can easily break past it. Now, you might immediately think that said mons must run a specific lure to break past it, however that just isn't the case. 'Mons such as Heatran and Greninja are the mons that immediately come to mind, as the former pressures it immediately through the combination of toxic and taunt, which wears it down incredibly quickly, especially if combined with entry hazards. Speaking of entry hazards, gastrodon cannot properly check greninja either, as the combination of one layer of spikes and a dark pulse on a switch-in immediately renders it useless as a "reliable" gren answer. The recent rise of tangrowth and specially defensive variants of swords dance bulu doesn't necessarily help it either, although it does have the means to punish both upon switch in. However, the niche of being a greninja and latios check that is also immune to volt switch (or electrics in general) is an incredible niche for balance to possess, especially considering that tapu koko has an advantageous matchup versus the majority of other electric immunities, barring gliscor, as well as the fact that most other forms of defensive counterplay to latios (celesteela, bulu / tang, mega zam) flat out loses to heatran (mega zam cannot check a corkscrew crash variant properly, but that set's stupidly good), whereas gastro has a decent matchup versus it, even if it is immensely pressured by it. I honestly have no opinion on whether it will whether it should drop or not, but it will be interesting to see where it will end up.

Celesteela is undoubtedly a fantastic pick. While the dominance of heatran is detrimental to it, the amazing matchup that it possesses versus not only some of the most dominant breakers in the tier, including mega latios, tornadus, alakazam and pinsir, but it also possesses an amazing matchup versus offence as a playstyle. The additional niche that it possesses versus offense - which is the ability to sit there versus the large majority of breakers commonly found and sap momentum - is incredibly useful, especially considering that the mentioned breakers all gain incredible amounts of momentum whenever they come in. Zam and Pinsir are the highlights in this case, as there's normally no reliable defensive counterplay versus most traditional balance builds. (or those that lack steela on it). It would also be blatantly negligent of me to ignore crucial changes to the meta that have made its niche even more desirable - the increased prominence of balance breakers such as mega alakazam, mega latios, tornadus and clefable has only boosted the demand and viability of this mon. Clefable in particular is especially notable, as you not only have the ability to scare it out with a heavy slam, but you also have the ability to directly invalidate its wish by being able to leech seed on a switch in, then being able to sap momentum for another turn by protecting. Now, you may say something along the lines of "uh grass types can just absorb the seeds", but you must consider the fact that celesteela forces out every grass type in the tier that's not named tangrowth. You may also be saying something about tornadus' access to knock off, uturn and heat wave, but you must also consider that the exact same scenario occurs to anything that pivots into it, and also beats torn 1v1 regardless. Slight filler aside, the metagame heavily favours celesteela's presence in the tier and deserves to rise to the A+ rank to reflect this.

It would be wrong to say that this isn't my favourite new toy, and i'm all for this rising. The sheer utility that zam provides balance is honestly astounding - the ability to counter non steelium variants of heatran as well as non draco meteor latios is just a godsend for most balance builds. I definitely sound like a broken record at this point, but alakazam's niche as an incredible switch-in to the mentioned is incredible, especially considering that reliable defensive counterplay for the two are incredibly limited.

When you think of reliable checks to heatran on balance, your thoughts should head straight for bulky grounds such as Zygarde, Gliscor and Gastrodon and mega lati@s. Now, you may consider these checks as being consistent, however you must consider how easy it is for heatran to break past these 'mons - Zygarde, Gliscor and Mega Latios must fear the ever-present will-o-wisp, which not only limits the former from properly functioning, but it also provides tran with incredibly effective method of breaking past these mons - gliscor now takes far too much damage from an offensive magma storm (not to mention it drops to an inferno overdrive, which alakazam is able to negate), zygarde now cannot reliably switch in, as the combination of magma residual and wisp / toxic + potential entry hazard damage just puts it in range of another magma storm, not to mention its offensive presence is heavily restricted thanks to its burn. Mega Latios is also restricted, though to a lesser extent, but is primarily punished through the use of pursuit, from 'mons such as weavile and tyranitar. I also feel obliged to mentioned that Gastrodon will be put into a position where it cannot recover off the residual damage from magma + toxic / wisp and any potential entry hazard damage and is thus heavily pressured. Now at this point, you may be wondering "well what does this have to do with mega zam?" (holy shit i'm so sorry for making you read this)

Well, Mega Alakazam has the advantage of not being subjugated to any of these issues - through its trace ability, it no longer has to fear an inferno overdrive, nor does it have to fear being chipped by wisp. Toxic is also alleviated through the combination of reliable recovery, in addition to trace, which allows it to trace abilities such as magic guard and regenerator - which is a common occurrence, as torn / pex / clef is absolutely everywhere, so it's not a stretch to assume this will occur in a game - which only further reduces the severity of toxic. Pursuit trapping is also alleviated through its amazing speed tier, allowing it to outspeed and ohko both weavile and tyranitar, although you do have to risk focus blast actually landing for it to avoid getting trapped. Speaking of its unrivalled speed tier, its speed tier is another crucial aspect to its success, especially on balance. Being able to outspeed common balance breakers such as tornadus, heatran, mega lati@s and protean gren gives it the edge over other breakers, especially since a majority of breakers on balance such as heatran, mega latias and torn have a disadvantageous matchup versus offence, due to a low speed tier or inability to break past common pivots such as greninja and tapu koko, which limits the breaking capabilities of the listed. Zam's speed tier fixes this issue, as it no longer has to fear a large handful of 'mons from coming in an revenge killing it.

I honestly think nearly everything that needs to be mentioned about Latios has already been discussed, so I'd actually like to address something that Charmflash brought up a few pages earlier, with that statement being that both Mega Alakazam and Latios should be listed in the same rank. Now I personally agree with this sentiment, although I do not agree with both being in the A rank. Mega Latios and Mega Alakazam are both arguably superior than everything listed in the A rank and possess qualities that are comparable of those in the A+ rank. I've already gone on about mega zam in a fucking essay holy shit and i'm certain I have nothing more to add to mega latios at the current moment in time, but I believe that both have influenced the meta enough to be listed in the A+ tier. I promise i'll expand on this at a further date, but it's 1 am in the morning so gimme a break