Landorus is not just dropping from new-toy Incineroar. It is also dropping because of other threats that it can't fight. I run AV Lando but I can still be OHKOed by a choice band Ice shard, or M-meta Ice punch
Congrats! I would read it, seemed like a good tournament.Just finished up at Perth VGC Regionals and made Top 8. Can post a war story if anyone actually cares. But the main point is this:
Only 1 Landorus in Top 8....
Which actually sucked a bit because I ran Milotic. She did me proud because of all the Incineroars (and Manectric to a lesser extent) running around though.
I like the thoughts behind this, but I'm against the idea. The strength of the cores would be largely reflected in the individual Pokemon's rankings. Individual rankings also account for other Pokemon that can form these cores, like Porygon2 instead of Cress in Cress-Lax, Pelipper for Ludi-toed, and Lele instead of Fini for Gross-Fini-Tar. This idea is also somewhat like ranking teams straight from the get-go, without taking into account the entire team.Also, I was thinking that maybe we could try a Viability Rankings for Archetypes or Cores. You have several, and each has its pros and cons.
We have:
Gross-Fini-Ttar
Kommo-Gengar-Bulu
Cress-Lax
Goth-Mawile
Ludi-Politoed
I don't think there should be ANYTHING in S tier right now. The metagame is more diverse now than it has been since VGC 18 started, and Incineroar has its weaknesses. No one pokemon is really a MUST to consider putting on your team, which is what I think S tier should basically mean.Incineroar should be S tier as of now. It recently got Intimidate which made it so popular among VGC players and is extremely viable. Anyone agree?
Good idea. Instead of raking them, we just discuss them and try to figure out the best way to deal with them. I am not sure I have the time to create the whole thread, but I can help with itI like the thoughts behind this, but I'm against the idea. The strength of the cores would be largely reflected in the individual Pokemon's rankings. Individual rankings also account for other Pokemon that can form these cores, like Porygon2 instead of Cress in Cress-Lax, Pelipper for Ludi-toed, and Lele instead of Fini for Gross-Fini-Tar. This idea is also somewhat like ranking teams straight from the get-go, without taking into account the entire team.
What I think would be good, leading on from your suggestion, would be a separate thread discussing the cores and why they're good / they're weaknesses. it could also combine elements from this Doubles thread, detailing frameworks for different archetypes with example teams noting the common elements in those teams. Of course, someone needs to be willing to post and run said thread.
Incineroar should be S tier as of now. It recently got Intimidate which made it so popular among VGC players and is extremely viable. Anyone agree?
Yeah, that's what I think as well. Right now, you're not at a dissadvantage by not bringing Landorus. Neither with Incineroar, both are top tier pokemon, but both have to be played smart now so it can keep up because of so many people preparing for it.I don't think there should be ANYTHING in S tier right now. The metagame is more diverse now than it has been since VGC 18 started, and Incineroar has its weaknesses. No one pokemon is really a MUST to consider putting on your team, which is what I think S tier should basically mean.
Yes, Unburden + Psy Seed. Acid Spray + Scarf Psyspam from Lele. It also has Final Gambit and EncoreI don't know how I feel about dropping Aerodactyl to UR.... it still has a niche, right? Sky Drop shenanigans along with the standard Tailwind, Wide Guard and Taunt support options
I agree with Staraptor getting a rating
Does the Accelgor hold a Psychic Seed in the Lele pairing?
This is VGC, not singles. Sash Rocks makes 0 sense here lolI higly disagree with Mamoswine dropping, let alone it being Unranked. It still has the typing, power, and moves to be an offensive threat. Its sash rocks lead set is also good in this metagame. Keep it at C
Oh! I'm retarted.. I thought this was OU. Nevermind he's B rank in OU. Idk much about mamo in VGC so idk what to say lolThis is VGC, not singles. Sash Rocks makes 0 sense here lol
Unsure how much weight this ranking places on the use of Pokemon compared to the viability of Pokemon. By that, I mean a lot of these Pokemon are never seen and were only used at the beginning of the format. Now with the metagame developing, would we keep them ranked based on viability determined by theorymon (since we haven't seen them being used for a long time, I'd say a lot of opinions on these would be theorymon), or unrank them since we literally haven't seen them. Not sure if any of us has used these recently and can legitmately say (I've used this recently and extensively, and it sucks remove it). This would weigh in on my decision on most of this stuff on whether stuff should be C- or UR.Hi! I have been for a while without posting anything here because I couldn't find any spare time, but now I can so I am going to post some thoughts on here.
First of all, sorry for my Milotic's comments, they were incorrect and I was proved wrong. It is a really good Pokémon, as now every team has around 2 or 3 Intimidate users, minimun 1, so your opponent can't avoid bringing one of them. Although it is weak against some meta Pokémon such as Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini or grass types such as Ferrothorn or Kartana.
I would like to make this VR a VR that has actual viable Pokémon, so I'm going to propose some minor changes (some Pokémon to lower tiers or UR):
Aerodactyl from C to C-/UR
Mamoswine from C to C-/UR
Vanilluxe from C to UR
Rhyperior from C- to UR
Salazzle from C- to UR (now that we have Incineroar, Salazzle has a very very small niche that is hard to justify using it over the cat).
Sandslash-Alola from C- to UR (stop using hail it is by far the worst archetype)
Blissey from Eevee-rank to UR (there is no actual reason to use it over Chansey)
I agree with ranking MBlazekin Staraptor and Accelgor in C+Other few mentions:
Mega Kangaskhan from A- to B+ (yo big mamma is no longer big) Agree, would even support B. It's been a long time since it's made top Cut.
Pelipper from B+ to B (Politoed is better, access to Helping Hand is really huge for rain sweepers) Disagree. Rain teams also really enjoy Flying-type STAB and Tailwind, the latter somewhat filling in the role of Helping Hand (if Pelipper outspeeds the opposing team, then its Scald would cover the damage that would be gained from Helping Hand.
Mega Swampert from B+ to B (Mega Swampert's niche is really small for two reasons: 1. Hard rain is bad, and that's the team where it shines and 2. Other mega evolutions that help the other rain sweepers are preferable, as Mega Mawile, Mega Salamence or even Mega Scizor) Agree
Kingdra from B to B- (Kingdra's niche is really small, Ludicolo is a better rain sweeper, although Kingdra has more raw power, but its typing is not great and can't deal damage to Tapu Fini, the main answer to rain). Abstain
Some mentions to Pokémon that haven't seen any use or just a little use because there are Pokémon that make their role better than them so there are few reasons to use them:
Hydreigon from B+ to B- (this Pokémon is bad, as every single dragon type apart from Mega Charizard X, Mega Salamence and Kommo-o). Agree
Hawlucha from B- to C+ (this Pokémon is bad, use seed Zapdos instead lol). Agree. Also arguably worse than Drilfbim for pure support. and ironically this is more evident with Incineroar being more common since it's actually affected by Fake Out
Thundurus from B- to C+ (Tapu Koko, Zapdos or even Thundurus-T are the main electric types, and I can't see a niche where Thundurus would shine; but maybe I'm wrong, I'm not quite sure with this). Abstain. Thundurus' niche is prankster, but haven't seen this for a while
About the other changes mentioned:
Aegislash from A+ to A: I'm not sure... Aegislash hasn't seen huge usage, but when it is used it's really good at what it does. When you click Z-move the other player has to pick one if they don't have P2 or Incineroar. Maybe Incineroar's rise is a reason for it to drop, but King's Shield + Sub is a really good combination against Incineroar, as Inci always runs contact moves to deal with Aegislash and you have a 50/50 game with King's Shield + Sub where you can have a free sub and win the war... I don't know... I would say A. It isn't just Incineroar; it's also that lots of common Pokemon that can hit it super-effectively, more so than at the start of the format. Incineroar, Kommo with Flamethrower (most Kommo), MGross with Stomping Tantrum (most MGross, and MGross can survive Shadow Ball unless its Z form). but Pokemon it used to do well against are dropping in usage like MMence and MKang. Yes it can King's Shield against MGross and Incineroar, though they are 50/50s. Incineroar can bypass KS' with Snarl too.
Ferrothorn from A- to B+: I have been using Ferrothorn for the first time after VGC18 got released and I have to say that it's really really good. It is a huge offensive threat, and it can stall you out with Leech Seed. Wins against every single tapu which is very good, and deals with rain with ease. It can run CB or pinch berry so you can surprise KO or suprise recover which is awesome. Maybe with Incineroar's appearance and high usage is difficult to use it, but if you run it with Milotic or rain it is a huge threat, so idk ^^' I'd say B+. It's at its best on rain, but with Incineroar's increased usage, it's harder to consistently do well with it regardless of Ferrothorn's set, and Incineroar is easier to bring against rain teams than most Fire-types (Zard Y being the exception).
Landorus-T from S to A+: mmmm... It's kinda' difficult... Landorus was used because it was the main intimidate user, but now we have other intimidators so it's no longer a must use. I have to say that AV sets are really good, as they tank a lot and support with Knock Off, Rock Tomb and gain momentum with U-Turn and Scarf sets do the same with U-Turn while being a little bit more offensive, whereas SD sets with Groundium or Flyinium are super strong and only lose to a few Pokémon such as Celesteela, but SD + Z is one of the biggest threats in the meta imo. You can't know Lando's set from the beggining, and that is really good for it. I think it should remain S tier. Abstain. Lando-T is still just as viable as before, the issue is now that it's no longer an easy pick for an Intimidate user. It's technically better since it checks Incineroar well, but if one were to ask me if Lando-T or Incineroar is better, I'm not sure. I think Incineroar is more splashable on a team than Lando-T, but that Lando-T is more diverse in its sets. i'm of the opinion that either both should be in S rank, or neither should be.
Mega Charizard Y from A+ to A: I agree with this nom. Tapu Koko is big, Incineroar is big, Fini is big, Tyranitar is big... Charizard Y is still a huge threat, but it doesn't have the opportunities it had in the past because the meta has changed a lot. Agree to A rank but no lower. Btw Fini doesn't like Solarbeam ^_^..