★ VGC 2023 Metagame Discussion: Regulation E

[Shaymin Sky]

Welcome to the VGC 2023 Metagame Discussion thread for Regulation E! As October 1st the official rules of regulation E have been announced and this thread will be dedicated to the discussion of the Regulation E metagame! The ruleset of Regulation E legalizes All non-mythical Teal Mask DLC content, and is an unrestricted format.

The following Pokemon are BANNED

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(BB)

The following NEW Pokémon are allowed

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The following RETURNING Pokémon are allowed

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NEW ABILITIES

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Mind's Eye: Fighting, Normal moves hit Ghost. Accuracy can't be lowered, ignores evasiveness.
Supersweet Syrup: On switch-in, this Pokémon lowers the evasiveness of opponents 1 stage. Once per battle.
Hospitality: On switch-in, this Pokémon restores 1/4 of its ally's maximum HP, rounded down.
Toxic Chain: This Pokémon's moves have a 30% chance of badly poisoning.
Embody Aspect (Teal Mask): On switch-in, this Pokémon's Speed is raised by 1 stage.
Embody Aspect (Wellspring): On switch-in, this Pokémon's Special Defense is raised by 1 stage.
Embody Aspect (Hearthflame): On switch-in, this Pokémon's Attack is raised by 1 stage.
Embody Aspect (Cornerstone): On switch-in, this Pokémon's Defense is raised by 1 stage.

Changed Abilities

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ability changed from Early Bird to Wind Rider!
ability changed from Defiant to Competitive!

New Moves

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Pokémon learn set changes HERE

If you're new to VGC, be sure to check out the other post in the forum and to join our Discord! You might also find resources like VGCPastes, VGC Guide, VGC damage calculator to be useful.​

 

[Jesuuuus]

first

 

[Deez Is The Way]

second

 

[Deez Is The Way]

what do we think of milotic

 

[Deez Is The Way]

particularly coil hypno blizzard

 

[Shaymin Sky]

particularly coil hypno blizzard

If you want to add onto what you have already said in a previous post, it's preferred that you edit to previous post rather than making new ones.

 

[Shaymin Sky]

what do we think of milotic

Milotic is mid at best in my opinion, it just doesn't excell at anything really. If you want a strong special attack Intimdate denying water you can just use Empoleon. If you want disruption in sleep Gastrodon is far more consistent and has redirect. If you want just bulk, I mean most waters atm are bulky you still have Gastrodon, and Empoleon for raw natural bulk in water types and then you have ogerpon wellspring with the spdef boost. Milotic has too much competition and all it really has going for it is coil? IMO Milotic just can't and won't ever be a legitamate pick in Regulation e besides maybe extreme niche cases, and being a solo water type in a Ogerpon world is a major problem.

 

[MafuSimp]

particularly coil hypno blizzard

>:)
KaguraBachi (Milotic) (F) @ Blunder Policy
Ability: Competitive
Level: 50
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 12 SpA / 36 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Hypnosis
- Coil
- Hydro Pump

 

[Jesuuuus]

Ok dokie so i need to tell everyone about my favourite ogerpon, which is this ogerpon.
https://pokepast.es/824ba35947eda8d1
This is a base ogerpon with life orb. Additionally it has encore, which (if you give it a speed boost through tera) can cause havoc on teams, though encoring protect and other useless moves. It's ev'd to outspeed normal lando (and will also outspeed scarf if you tera), which it can threaten with OHKO (if defiant boosted). Additioanally, If you get defiant boosted, you can do a good job at sweeping with speed boost and tera. I have taunt also on this set for additional utility, as this ogerpon does not like trick room too much (like most).

 

[LovelyLuna]

^ I really like Base Ogerpon and don't understand the minimal usage it is getting. Landorus has risen and is universally preserved as an S tier pokemon, a big part of it is because it can check Ogerpon. Base Ogerpon being able to exploit this AND get a speed boost to outspeed Scarf??? This is ridiculously good and while it lacks the mask boost, it has item versatility which other Ogers can only dream of. Choice Band on HO is my current favourite set, like this

Ogerpon @ Choice Band
Ability: Defiant
Level: 50
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 228 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer / Ivy Cudgel
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off
- U-turn

This thing's calcs are especially ridiculous with Rillaboom and/or Chien Pao who are natural partners

Ogerpon goes brr

+1 236+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Grass Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Tera-Flying Landorus-Therian: 170-201 (103 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 236+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera-Grass Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 132 HP / 4 Def Tera-Flying Landorus-Therian: 190-224 (104.9 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 236+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera-Grass Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Tera-Flying Landorus-Therian: 208-245 (106.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO

While yes a lot of its bonuses come from Defiant, it still has monstrous breaking power into some of the bulkier pokemon rn

236+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Grass Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Iron Hands in Grassy Terrain: 254-300 (110.4 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

236+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Grass Ogerpon Ivy Cudgel vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Iron Hands in Grassy Terrain: 214-252 (93 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

(SoR is a 33% buff, Terrain is 30%, yet Cudgel is still a positive role)

+1 236+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera-Grass Ogerpon Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Hearthflame in Grassy Terrain: 157-185 (101.2 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

After a lot of set up (which isn't that much considering Rilla runs U Turn and Lando being one of the most common in the format), expect even quad resists to take a lot if not outright drop. Another thing with the speed boost though is being able to outspeed Opposing Ogerpon and bonking first. It has the needed coverage for bulkier resists and paired with Chien Pao it's just a ridiculous amount of damage

Yh, you get the idea, it goes bonk, but why would you justify it over Hearthflame? A lot of teams carry many physical attackers and Lando feasts cycling on them. Hearthflame can not deter Intim as well and it itself, is threatened by Lando in and out of Tera. The speed boost flips the mu and make Base Ogerpon a really threatening pokemon that can definitely see play. Surprised it's getting next to none on limitless and Showdown though

 

[Choruto]

I agree that Ogerpon Normal is very strong, and the calcs are certainly impressive, but honestly grass isen't that good of an offensive typing and if your looking for more offensive options there are better options.
Firstly, there are also other options for strong grass attackers. You can make anything a nuke with enough effort
116+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 84 HP / 4 Def Iron Hands in Grassy Terrain: 240-284 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not even max attack.
Problem with grass is that its frankly a terrible offensive typing, and everything it hits you have better options. Out of the top 20 mons in reg D, 11 of them resist grass. Out of the 9, it hits 2 for super effective. Urshifu RS, and Oger water. Its often just better to run either a special attacker like Flutter, which hits tons of those mons, or smh like Urshifu which ignores the intim. Also, whats the point of OHKO'ing something like Urshifu when you can invest into bulk and live 3-4 of its attacks? All of the best grass types are support attackers for a reason, its good defensively, offensively not so much

I defo think its good, surprised I dont see that much usage. I think people see the 120 attack and need to run jolly (If you want to outspeed anything meaningful unless you tera) and dont realize that it can do damage with tera grass.

 

[LovelyLuna]

I agree that Ogerpon Normal is very strong, and the calcs are certainly impressive, but honestly grass isen't that good of an offensive typing and if your looking for more offensive options there are better options.
Firstly, there are also other options for strong grass attackers. You can make anything a nuke with enough effort
116+ Atk Choice Band Tera-Grass Rillaboom Wood Hammer vs. 84 HP / 4 Def Iron Hands in Grassy Terrain: 240-284 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I do think its deeper than a 'Grass attacker', as Rillaboom and the Ogerpon forms can function very differently. What makes Base Ogerpon attract my attention is that It is an answer to Lando, and people usually turn to Lando o answer Ogerpon. They'll quickly see a hole formed in their team when the Ogerpon is positioned correctly. Pokemon like Hearthflame don't appreciate going to -1 or back to +0, and have to play very careful as Lando is an outright answer to it. So realistically, even though the typing doesn't suggest it, It can take care of Flutter, Hands, Tera Flying Lando, both Urshifu, Chi-Yu, Cresselia, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Chien-Pao if it counts, and Harcanine. While with a defiant boost, it can OHKO Bulky resists like Rillaboom or Bulky Tornadus

Problem with grass is that its frankly a terrible offensive typing, and everything it hits you have better options. Out of the top 20 mons in reg D, 11 of them resist grass. Out of the 9, it hits 2 for super effective. Urshifu RS, and Oger water. Its often just better to run either a special attacker like Flutter, which hits tons of those mons, or smh like Urshifu which ignores the intim. Also, whats the point of OHKO'ing something like Urshifu when you can invest into bulk and live 3-4 of its attacks? All of the best grass types are support attackers for a reason, its good defensively, offensively not so much

While this would be an issue, if I didn't showcase it ohkoing through resists and Iron Hands. Also I'd argue you can have both and still get a lot of benefit from defiant, Flutter Mane is usually the only special attacker on teams (Unless Torn, Cress, Amoon etc count), so it isn't like it is exactly fixing the issue. You can pair Ogerpon with things that hate Intimidate, or in particular, Landorus. Oger doesn't exactly need the ability to output damage and when it gets the boost, its just so much scarier. Having the option of Band + Scarf has always interested me, especially when you get to choose when you want to set the scarf. Could force a lot of mindgames and the speed. Not to mention defiant again, a choiced pokemon, not immune to intimidate, but instead benefits from it! is just something really valuable. Still gets cool tools like Priority and U turn.

I defo think its good, surprised I dont see that much usage. I think people see the 120 attack and need to run jolly (If you want to outspeed anything meaningful unless you tera) and dont realize that it can do damage with tera grass.

Would also like to say that It has clear flaws, I just thought it was really good for its usage. That might be why its usage isn't so high and it could need time.

 

[Choruto]

For sure it doesen't have to be just a grass type attacker, I've seen some extremely annoying encore sets with sash, or lorb sets.
I think as a lando answer, you got better options. Urshifu is really good, Flutter with icy is good, bundle (ew) is good, basically any special attacker does fine, personally I got dozo which is good. I mean, you have Chien pao right there XD
My main problem is just that its omega frail. Its a doubles format after all, and whats the point of commiting a tera to attack if your just gonna die to their partner. When a torn bleak win kills you after wood hammer recoils thats kinda bad. Thats kinda my problem with a lot of nukes in general ngl

Also, adding Choice band + Sword of ruin + Tera + Stab + 120BP Move Something is gonna die, I dont think much lives that.

I do think that its way better than say, Empoleon which has similar usage. I think its quite good, and is missing out on potential.
(Also, I forgot about Ursaluna and Blood moon, so thats technically 4 weaknesses by they usually tera and are trick room users so its a bit of a moot point)

 

[Faulty Avalugg]

Funni new grass creature with mask go brrrrrr

 

[Vinc2612]

Ok dokie so i need to tell everyone about my favourite ogerpon, which is this ogerpon.
https://pokepast.es/824ba35947eda8d1
This is a base ogerpon with life orb. Additionally it has encore, which (if you give it a speed boost through tera) can cause havoc on teams, though encoring protect and other useless moves. It's ev'd to outspeed normal lando (and will also outspeed scarf if you tera), which it can threaten with OHKO (if defiant boosted). Additioanally, If you get defiant boosted, you can do a good job at sweeping with speed boost and tera. I have taunt also on this set for additional utility, as this ogerpon does not like trick room too much (like most).

I play a similar set and I love it. Three suggestions though:
- a bit more speed to outspeed jolly Urshifu (and kill scarf with Tera)
- miracle seed sounds better than Life Orb since your only offensive move is grass, although I might miss some calcs
- in most teams, Follow Me is more interesting than Taunt. Since grass is not the best offensive type, you can at least prevent your opponent from ignoring Ogerpon when they'd rather target the teammate

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

I’ve actually been quite tempted by Ogerpon-Rock. On paper it seems pretty good, Sturdy makes it very strong late game since it can always take 1 hit, and being a grass that doesn’t instantly get vaporised by Flyings and Fires is cool. Yeah Iron Hands makes it cry, but that’s why you have 5 teammates.

 

[Jesuuuus]

I play a similar set and I love it. Three suggestions though:
- a bit more speed to outspeed jolly Urshifu (and kill scarf with Tera)
- miracle seed sounds better than Life Orb since your only offensive move is grass, although I might miss some calcs
- in most teams, Follow Me is more interesting than Taunt. Since grass is not the best offensive type, you can at least prevent your opponent from ignoring Ogerpon when they'd rather target the teammate

Yeh those are some good suggestions (tho i have now replaced taunt with stomping tantrum cause my team was stuggling with heatran). I think follow me is a good idea that i will probs use on the next team I build using it.

 

[LovelyLuna]

PEORIA DAY 2 TEAMS AND USAGE STATS! Thoughts? Any pokemon you expected higher or lower? Certain comps?

ERRORS: Justin Tang was using Hearthflame instead of Wellspring so 18 -> 17 for Wellspring and 13 -> 14 for Hearthflame, user forgot to add but there is one legal Dondozo and the other one was removed due to certain factors.

 

[4Kuser]

PEORIA DAY 2 TEAMS AND USAGE STATS! Thoughts? Any pokemon you expected higher or lower? Certain comps? View attachment 559237View attachment 559240

ERRORS: Justin Tang was using Hearthflame instead of Wellspring so 18 -> 17 for Wellspring and 13 -> 14 for Hearthflame, user forgot to add but there is one legal Dondozo and the other one was removed due to certain factors.

I find it really funny that Clefairy's usage is higher than Roaring Moon's

 

[flutterfan]

The creativity is INSANE. Cetitan? Staraptor? Salamence? These are Pokémon that I expect in Regulation A. And now they are in Day 2 of a format where the power level is a lot higher. Also, there was a Houndstone on stream yesterday. Insane.

 

[4Kuser]

The creativity is INSANE. Cetitan? Staraptor? Salamence? These are Pokémon that I expect in Regulation A. And now they are in Day 2 of a format where the power level is a lot higher. Also, there was a Houndstone on stream yesterday. Insane.

VGC just went backwards lmao
Regulation E? No, this is Regulation A silly! /s

 

[LovelyLuna]

My personal thoughts so far

Holy Shit Text Wall even for my standards

, , and are the Top 3, a clear pedestal on their own and probably the only S tiers in the format right now. All function extraordinarily well in Tailwind, and other forms of HO, as well as the most common Balance and screen structures. The former two do perform better in Trick room which is why I think they're slightly better, being a response to and its other forms, a lot of these results really being "calls" instead of using the most consistent. I'll expand on this in a bit.

and have notably fallen as new toy syndrome dies down, I do think they aren't that high either though due to being both item and Tera locked severely limiting what roles it can perform or what teams it can squeeze itself into. I've grown to think 's typing is a lot more valuable than the attack boost, letting it perform better into , who pressures to a significant degree. Not keeping any weaknesses when you Tera is also appreciated. I think the Swords Dance variant is Strongest but follow me has its place as an offensive on balance comps. , while a very strong Nuke, is very one dimensional and can be played around. Jolly (most common rn) only hits about 8-10% Harder than Adamant (most common in D) Mystic Water . Except, Ogerpon lacks the ability to push past intimidate/screens and ignore the single best move in the game. Not to mention has item and Tera Type versatility to go for different routes other than punch super hard. This is why I think Reg D Urshifu without Unseen Fist (and arguably without the intimidate immunity on Surging) is comparable to Regulation E . I'm confident we believe that neither Urshifu would be nearly as good without those qualities. I do still think both Ogerpon forms are strong A tiers ( being borderline A+), just not as good as they are made out to be

is an excellent pokemon and the usage makes sense, limited due to competing with however can be better for a lot of teams. Remains A+ in my book, especially with the Grassy Glide comeback

also does make sense, imo the best Fire type right now that can play in many different ways (Specs Nuke, Bulky Nasty Plot, Life Orb 3 Attacks, Focus Sash, on rare occasions Choice Scarf) and fit on a variety of comps (2-2-2, Tailwind HO, Balance, etc.). I currently believe is on the same pedestal as , struggles due to , and to some extent and being excellent fire types that take up spots on teams it would previously be a staple on. Again, wouldn't be surprised if this keeps the high usage

, now this is where I think people went for the "Call" instead of the consistent pick, as an answer to , they went with . I'm sure my fellow VGC players in this thread along with the players in the tournament can agree something like is a far more consistently good Dark type, seen it on many Top 5s (including mine) and almost all Top 10s. Enables some of the best pokemon rn, , , , , and occasionally , , and to name a few. Ice is still as good as ever and priority is appreciated, Sacred Sword will probably pick back up as an answer to the noticeably more common and who wall it otherwise.
Now this is not to say isn't good, Imo it's a B+/A- pokemon that can check things like and . Can be a monster on the right team but I do not see it on the same level as , who I personally still hold as A+.

making a scene again! Hate it or Love it, Unseen Fist is one of the best abilities in the game on an already really good pokemon, I've probably talked enough about it incomparison to who I already think is A tier, not a stretch to say is A+. , it's favourite partner is also up there, conveniently one point faster than the Ogerpons supposed to check while keeping the superb Tailwind and weather support, which extends to other pokemon including; , , , , , , , ...I can go on and on if I were to talk about how many pokemon appreciate Tornadus, defining piece that shapes a very dominant archetype and its hard to justify it being lower than A+.

, , and , are pokemon that I think fell off in E. Mainly due to either new competition or previous competition getting better. I do think you can justify over or over in a lot of teams though, why they have maintained respectable usage. As for , feel like it's been forgotten? Urshifu in general has been underestimated and people have seemed to overlook unseen fist now, expect it to become a more meta defining threat once people realise how good it is when built around well.


, this is probably one of my hotter VGC takes but I strongly believe it is still an A+ pokemon even with the new great Grass Types. In Regulation D, a team would already have a Grass type and a /Tera Grass/Goggles mon. 2/3 Spore immunities on most teams yet is still stupid good. Teams are not gonna stack like 3 Grass types even if there are quite a few good ones added, it just gives teams more options into now but that's it. Amoon is still gonna wreck half your team with Spore, Rage Powder is an extremely good move and Pollen Puff with Hands makes it one of the best answers into the dominant HO playstyles ever. It's pretty much the best enabler, especially for set up pokemon to go crazy. You can't go wrong sleep + redirection + healing while having a great defensive typing, resisting and . I especially like the Tera Fire tech for a better matchup into while answering the waters like and when it doesn't Terastalise.
I think what in particular sells it for me is how often it is paired with a Choiced or , which threaten the Grass types that dodge Spore and its other teammate /. Intimidate, Amoonguss and an AV Fake Out mon feels like the perfect defensive core that makes stand out and remain an excellent pick. I do think it has fallen a bit but not enough to drop from A+ personally.

That's all I REALLY wanted to talk about but here are short thoughts on the rest of the pokemon

- feels Overrated, hard to fit into a team and has disappointing damage output. It can be ridiculous at covering for its teammate while slowing down its threats though (See + in Reg C, replicated through This regulation). Would consider it a decent B+ pick
, , and are supportive options that can find themselves amazing on particular teams which is why I also have them in the B+ area, can bring a lot of value on the right team like , noteworthy they play different roles though
, , and being offensive pokemon in the same B+ tier, need certain support or comps but perform exceptionally well and can consistently get multiple Day 2 results in them, pretty much how I define the tier.
+ I probably feel the same way, maybe a bump to A- because of how demanding they can be in the teambuilder, forcing you to take a loss or take an otherwise sub-optimal move or Tera Type. Especially now that Tera Water and Grass have fallen out of favour for Tera Fire on bulkier pokemon.
is really high too me, A- personally. Was very real in Regulation D and has gotten significantly better in Regulation E, getting access to Knock Off making the Tailwind sets more threatening and picking up crucial kos without a Dragon Dance boost. It's typing is also great into the new Ogerpons, not to mention the option to Tera Flying Acrobatics into them, forcing passive play on the other side.
is a fraud who is hard to justify over , it has some niche things going for it so I'll stick to B- but I think Regular is an entire letter higher despite the minimal usage it saw. Guts, Ability to spam Facade, Spore immunity, the spread out bulk and speed stat, and also the better synergy with . It has the flaw of being weak but can punish passive protect and switching through Swords Dance which is more immediate than Calm Mind.
Speaking of , I feel like it's usage doesn't reflect its viability, probably also an A- pokemon but it's still consistent on Hard Trick Room, Semi-Room, and Balance structures.
is another pokemon who belongs in the tier imo, one of our two most consistent Ghost types and better than on certain comps, in particular, rain. Although I'd argue it's to a lesser extent than vs or vs as they can fit on the same team very well, see Pittsburgh.
- prob a B+ pokemon, just a better suited for this power level tbh (No Pop bomb Choruto)
and - B- niche pokemon that require a lot of support or work on very specific teams, not a fan of them in the current format personally.
is probably the best of the loyal 3, Bulk Up set, Assault Vest and Choice Band are all fine, a B Tier mon that doesn't exactly master any of them well enough to be moved higher
I think , , , , , , etc are outlier C tiers that don't have a lot going for them but can see some results
While everything else is extremely hard to justify and probably way too nice to consider.v

Also the creativity is for sure something! Not to mention , AND , with to an extent, all being on the same team. I guess people are going all in when it comes to exploring the format lmao

 

[flutterfan]

I mean, we did see Breloom pick up in usage a bit in Regulation D after Billa made Day 2 with it at worlds. But we haven’t really seen Salamence or Slowbro since a couple times in Regulation A. Cornerstone is also getting more usage than I expected it to so that’s really cool.

 

[LovelyLuna]

Yeah Breloom won a few online tours too but I'd still consider it an incredibly niche pick, especially with the new dominating Grass types that make it even harder to put in the builder.

Definitely looks like Peoria let you get away with a lot of pokemon choices though, Instead of the same recycled 30~ with a few interesting picks you'll see on Showdown or Regulation D

 

[Choruto]

Im still a firm believer in Pop bomb , even though im not using it rn lol. I agree with most of your points though Leo especially on the Oger's