Victreebel

[alphatron]

Why wouldn't Venusaur need to split EVs whereas Vic does? They have similar movepools and can both run Leaf Storm (Saur gets petal dance, I suppose). Saur without the mixed set loses acess to either HP ground or HP fire and it really needs both for coverage. Without running mixed, Victreebel can run weatherball and hp ground and opt for Leaf storm or something else as its special grass attack.

If both are running mixed, then Victreebel is still offensively stronger. Weatherball hits 150 BP, while HP Fire hits only 105. Venusaur gets a stronger ground move through Earthquake, but when you think about the things you'll need ground coverage for (Heatran), the extra BP isn't all that special. Nattorei switching in on Victreebel early game when the sun isn't up is a huge problem, primarily because you're using Victreebel when the sun isn't up.

What Venusaur has over Victreebel is greater natural bulk, the ability to dominate alongside cherrim in doubles/triples, and petal dance if you've eliminated all the grass resistances on your opponent's team. The bulk helps him most because he doesn't need to run Sleep Powder.

...I find it funny that despite having higher defense, Victreebel just can't force switches like Lucario can. I've tried switching him into Swampert, gastrodon, that new water/ground frog, Vaporeon...they just don't switch.

 

[Benlisted]

Why wouldn't Venusaur need to split EVs whereas Vic does? They have similar movepools and can both run Leaf Storm (Saur gets petal dance, I suppose). Saur without the mixed set loses acess to either HP ground or HP fire and it really needs both for coverage. Without running mixed, Victreebel can run weatherball and hp ground and opt for Leaf storm or something else as its special grass attack.

All I really meant was that Venusaur has a viable solely Special set, whereas if Vic wants to do so it is forced to use Leaf Storm, not Petal Dance. Also, Venu can run Petal Dance/Sludge Bomb/HP Fire for pretty good coverage on all but Heatran, who is easily dealt with by a teammate. In the case of this set, running Modest 252 HP Fire, I meant its HP Fire would probably nearly as powerful as Vic's weather ball.

It is true that Vic can be used as a more Sun dependent sweeper - like Charizard compared to Typhlosion, for example, especially with Weather Ball. As well as that it being Normal out of weather will have little impact.

What Venusaur has over Victreebel is greater natural bulk, the ability to dominate alongside cherrim in doubles/triples, and petal dance if you've eliminated all the grass resistances on your opponent's team. The bulk helps him most because he doesn't need to run Sleep Powder.

...I find it funny that despite having higher defense, Victreebel just can't force switches like Lucario can. I've tried switching him into Swampert, gastrodon, that new water/ground frog, Vaporeon...they just don't switch.

It really can't be understated how much that extra bulk helps Venusaur. It lets him actually switch into things as well as setup without fear of severe damage from just about anything. Both Venu and Vic need 3 moveslots to get reasonable coverage, and Vic simply cannot afford to run Growth without Sleep Powder.

 

[alphatron]

Well, you are correct on all of those accounts. There's also the fact that Venusaur has 10 higher base speed. Victreebel can just stick to mixed sets then. As it does that best and didn't exactly have an existing physical movepool until HGSS where it finally got leaf blade. At least he can shine in that department.

Not much that can be done about his bulk hough and it's pretty unfortunate for Victreebel.

 

[Server_Crash]

Why is Swords Dance listed as a notable move in the OP? It gets completely outclassed by growth in sun, and if you're using Victreebel without sun support, then your input simply doesn't count.

 

[Benlisted]

Why is Swords Dance listed as a notable move in the OP? It gets completely outclassed by growth in sun, and if you're using Victreebel without sun support, then your input simply doesn't count.

If you're using a purely physical Vic set then it may as well be used instead of Growth as it isn't halved out of Sun (in the event a weather changer switches in). Admittedly this is unlikely and arguably doesn't make it notable, but hey.

 

[joo]

Is an all-out boosting attacker viable?

Nature: Hasty
EVs: Not good with EVs
Item: Life Orb
Attacks:
-Growth
-Leaf Blade
-Weather Ball
-Sucker Punch

I have no idea if this'll work, just saying an idea.
Since opponents don't switch out of victreebel as i have read, perhaps switching in common walls such as burungeru and nattorei (while it uses SR or spikes) bashing them with the appropriate move? (considering the sun is up).
This will need a few support, namely a counter to heatran who completely walls this and perhaps a sleep inducer so victreebel can switch on them and actually pull of a growth. Even with sucker punch though, due to the nature i dont think victreebel will survive a roobushin's mach punch if it has taken some damage.

 

[alphatron]

Hidden power ice/fighting could be used over sucker punch if you need the coverage. Sludge bomb is also good nuetral coverage for fire and dragon types since it gets STAB. There's also hp ground...I guess.

Victreebel seriously needs setup support. Being resistant to mach punch is awesome and he doesn't die as easily to roob's priority as you think. Just...setting up with him is pretty tough. I like to use a momento poke or something else to set up screens. Also, avoid reuniclus at all costs.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

I use the above set with Leaf Storm over Sucker Punch, the main thing it gets is the ability to hit from both sides of the spectrum and easily KO any Lati@s although it cant come close to touchin Nattorei.

 

[Benlisted]

Is an all-out boosting attacker viable?

Nature: Hasty
EVs: Not good with EVs
Item: Life Orb
Attacks:
-Growth
-Leaf Blade
-Weather Ball
-Sucker Punch

An all out attacker is probably what Vic does best, given his frailty. He's in a similar class to Shiftry and Sawsbuck (Mebukijika) as a fast frail chlorophyll sweeper with potential for setup. His resistance to Fighting however and absorbing T-Spikes are very useful and distinguish him from the others, making him much less priority weak. Using Sucker Punch may be something I'd steer clear of, given that Shiftry's is so much more powerful with STAB, so in the last slot you could try Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, etc. Since he gets weather Ball a HP other than Fire is very viable to distinguish him from the others too.

Hidden power ice/fighting could be used over sucker punch if you need the coverage. Sludge bomb is also good nuetral coverage for fire and dragon types since it gets STAB. There's also hp ground...I guess.

Victreebel seriously needs setup support. Being resistant to mach punch is awesome and he doesn't die as easily to roob's priority as you think. Just...setting up with him is pretty tough. I like to use a momento poke or something else to set up screens. Also, avoid reuniclus at all costs.

Agreed, unless you can predict switches with certainty him and the other frail chlorophyllers love some easy way to setup - if you predict wrong and the opponent doesn't switch, you will most likely be OHKOd. He really wishes he could run Growth+3 Atks+Sleep Powder to aid his own setup... Dropping Growth and running more coverage and/or Sleep powder is a good option on him since he has weather ball, resists common priority and has exceedingly high attack stats. However the fact that to outrun ScarfChomp etc he has to go +Spe takes away from this somewhat, sadly.

 

[Farewell]

He could also run Bulb or Rechargeable Battery; in Sun he quad resists Water, and can 2x resist Electric moves.

This takes away the need for Growth somewhat:

Nature: Hasty
EVs: Not good with EVs
Item: Life Orb
Attacks:
-Hidden Power [Ground]
-Leaf Blade
-Weather Ball
-Sucker Punch

 

[ironman]

i've used with great success in my sunny day team the following victreebel:
victreebel@life orb
ability chlorophyl
naive nature
252 speed/196 atk/56 sp.atk
growth
weather ball
leaf blade
sucker punch
sucker punch is a nice surprise for the shanderas that try to switch in and ruin your fun...i use max speed to outspeed as much as i can...
also its ability to absorb toxic spikes is a blessing especially in a sunny team who generally don't run steel types...

 

[Benlisted]

He could also run Bulb or Rechargeable Battery; in Sun he quad resists Water, and can 2x resist Electric moves.

Problem with bulb is that in Sun noone is likely to be using water moves unless forced to, and that it has nothing to lure electric attacks for the battery, so he's unlikely to be getting a boost.

Again, if you want Sucker Punch, why not use Shiftry?

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Who expects Sucker punch on a Victreebel? I cant tell you how many Lati@s' come in just to get Sucker Punched.

 

[BurningMan]

Who expects Sucker punch on a Victreebel?

pretty much everyone that knows how shallow Victreebels movepool is ^^

 

[Lady Shinki]

The only reason to use victreebel is to use its combination of Weather Ball+Sucker Punch. Its stats are decent enough that it could be a final sun sweeper with some mixed investment, since it can't really get fast enough to just sweep through everything with no priority (deer thing or Leafeon) and it definitely does not have the defenses to set up...

 

[Benlisted]

The only reason to use victreebel is to use its combination of Weather Ball+Sucker Punch. Its stats are decent enough that it could be a final sun sweeper with some mixed investment, since it can't really get fast enough to just sweep through everything with no priority (deer thing or Leafeon) and it definitely does not have the defenses to set up...

Actually Vic can easily be fast enough to outspeed everything necessary - it just has to use a +Spe nature, and therefore doesn't need to use Sucker Punch. Weather Ball is excellent, however, as it gives it a Fire move almost 1/3 more powerful than any other chlorophyll sweeper, and lets it use a HP for better coverage than a lot of them can achieve.

Imo I see Vic having a very viable 4 attacks set, and a Growth sweeper if you can find something to come in on with it.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

pretty much everyone that knows how shallow Victreebels movepool is ^^

Tell that to the inane amount of Lati@s' who come in on Victreebel to get OHKO'ed.

 

[joo]

Tell that to the inane amount of Lati@s' who come in on Victreebel to get OHKO'ed.

i agree. people often forget about victreebel and i doubt they know the moves it learns so once they bring something weakened or a lati@s they will have a nasty surprise when they get hit by a sucker punch.
all it needs is a bit support. kill heatrans and give screens or sleep support and its high attacking stats will do some good for you.

 

[alphatron]

Haven't touched a computer in a while, otherwise I would have given you some EVs.