Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)

[Luck]

If this not right time or the mod thinks this discussion will bring nothing of merit.I guess this topic will be closed.

First the mission statement of the Cap project

The Pokémon created by the CAP project are intended to be used in competitive metagame play. That is the primary factor driving the design and construction process. Each Pokémon should add something new or necessary to the metagame, hopefully making the metagame more balanced, and increasing the number of viable Pokémon available for competitive play. However, almost everyone involved in the CAP project is a fan of the Pokémon game. As such, although it is not the main focus of the construction process, the CAP project strives to create holistic Pokémon concepts that make sense within the spirit and example of the actual Pokémon game.

I think the Cap project has just reached a crossroad.Here is why we are in the process of making a Fire/Grass and two things has popped up.

1.Most people want a Auto Weather Sunny day trait
2.Most people realize that Auto Sunny trait as is total changes how the games is played now.

The Cap project is to fill in the holes metagame and to make more usable pokes right ?So far the project has is created one usable ice poke and usable fire poke,two types that game has large ignored.They are cool but other than flying types which counter all the cap project pokes no pokes really benefit from their presence in the game.It is clear that auto weather will bring more pokes in play no one can deny that.So here comes the big pitch

Here is what should be focus of the Cap project until we fix it "Weather Effects".The truth is right now the game is about sandstream.It is very hard make a team without having big adjustment for sandstream.Seriously can you make a successful competitive team with have ground/steel or rock pokemon on the team.Maybe.Was that case in past?No.Auto weather traits have a potential to take over how the game is played.They couple ways to deal with auto weather

1.Build teams to be immune to weather
2.Change the weather to one of your liking
3.Temporary stop the weather with Air Lock or Cloud Nine.

DougjustDoug has introduce one method a shorten auto weather effect(if it wins).Which is a great idea but some people still thinks the idea is over powered.They will be proven right in the test case if there are not pokes that can take stab fire attacks.Which is not really a fair test

I am mentioning the other method.A trait that cancel other permanently weather when brought in,If put on a solid defense pokemon ,it will stabilize the game meaning if you want deal with weather pokes this poke can be brought in so you can use your strategy more effectively.An ideal metagame looks like this

Normal Teams-Teams not built around a weather strategy.Based on executing your strategy before hail or stream beats you.

Sunny based teams-Fire,Ground,Grass,Rock
What people have not realized that Sunny day cuts down amount damage water does pokes weak to it.Which makes them bigger asset on sunny day.

Rain based teams-Water
Water has most variety of pokes it can do what ever it likes

Sandstream-Ground,Steel,Rock
Teams based an immune strategy to stream while wearing stuff down

Hail teams-Ice
Same thing as stream but they are not enough good ice pokes or ice poke with out the same common weakness something that needs to work too in the cap process but we have add syclant to that is a good start.

Hybrid weather teams-Half the team benefits from the weather

AntiWeather team-Featuring the weather canceling poke and whatever strategy you want.

As the game stands right now we have normal teams,sand stream,and hail teams.Here is where the topic truly comes into play.I said in another thread to have a sunny day poke you need a drizzle,another hail poke and weather canceling poke.The answer reply back at the was you want the cap project next four poke be those pokes? And at the time i kinda agreed but this is my thinking now if making four poke makes 20-30 pokes usable isn't that worth it.We have flaw in the metagame that we can fix that will add more pokes in play.The Cap project mission statement is make more usable pokes.Auto weather brings more variety of poke if we put in right measures.Right Now i see two solutions.

1.We add Auto cancel Weather Poke.We add auto drizzle poke similar to greenhouse house is setup and another usable Hail poke

2.Auto weather canceling poke and Another solid Air Lock /Cloud Nine Poke.

Discussion question is can weather implemented in OU metagame without being over powered and how can this be achieved.

 

[Aki]

LETS BRING OUT THE SPARTAN LASERS!

If this not right time or the mod thinks this discussion will bring nothing of merit.I guess this topic will be closed.

First the mission statement of the Cap project

I think the Cap project has just reached a crossroad.Here is why we are in the process of making a Fire/Grass and two things has popped up.

1.Most people want a Auto Weather Sunny day trait
2.Most people realize that Auto Sunny trait as is total changes how the games is played now.

What the fuck is this on about? I don't want one. I know many people on shoddy don't want one. Just because people want it, dosen't mean that is will improve the metagame. A good example is. are "lik ghost/normals plzplzplz"k

The Cap project is to fill in the holes metagame and to make more usable pokes right ?So far the project has is create 1 usable ice poke and usable fire poke,two types that game has large ignored.They are cool but other than flying types which counter all the cap project pokes no pokes really benefit from their presence in the game.It is clear that auto weather will bring more pokes in play no one can deny that.So here comes the big pitch

Of course it will bring more pokemon into play, but that's a point against you. Not only are those pokemon Absolutly broken when the weather effect is one, they're absolute dead weight when it's off.

Here is what should be focus of the Cap project until we fix it "Weather Effects".The truth is right now the game is about sandstream.It is very hard make a team without having big adjustment for sandstream.Seriously can you make a successful competitive team with have ground/steel or rock pokemon on the team.Maybe.Was that case in past?No.Auto weatkher traits have a potential to take over how the game is played.They couple ways to deal with auto weather

What the fuck? You can indeed make a team without a Steel/Ground/Rock type pokemon, that does indeed work. it just so happens that many of those (Metagross, Lucario, Dugtrio, Tyranitar, Hippowdon) Are just top tier OU. It's like saying that you shouldn't use grass types on the whole because they're on the whole UU/NU.

1.Build teams to be immune to weather
2.Change the weather to one of your liking
3.Temporary stop the weather with Air Lock or Cloud Nine.

...Or just totally ignore the weather, because teams can and will work without weather effects.

The DougjustDoug has introduce one method a shorten auto weather effect(if it wins).Which is a great idea but some people still thinks the idea is over powered.They will be proven right in the test case if there are not pokes that can take stab fire attacks.Which is not really a fair test

What the fuck. It is indeed overpowered. The reason that SS and Hail are OU is because they don't have a huge benefit (Rocks gets 1 stage SpD, and on the whole they don't have much SpD to begin with) (Hail gets 100% Blizzard), while Rain and Sun have Huge benefits *Cough*Swiftswim*Cough*Solarpower*Cough*

I am mentioning the other method.A trait that cancel other permanently weather when brought in,If put on a solid defense pokemon will stabilize the game meaning if you want deal with weather pokes this poke can be brought in so you can use your strategy more effectively.An ideal metagame looks like this

Normal Teams-Teams not built around a weather strategy.Based on executing your strategy before hail or stream beats you.

So you're just saying that weather teams are auto win? That's bullshit. Say that to my 45-5 stall team, and it's beaten weather every single fucking time. Those 5 were due to highly offensive teams, which ironically didn't have any weather.

Sunny based teams-Fire,Ground,Grass,Rock
What people have not realized that Sunny day cuts down amount damage water does pokes weak to it.Which makes them bigger asset on sunny day.

...And that only furthers the point that Auto sun is overpowering

Rain based teams-Water
Water has most variety of pokes it can do what ever it likes

Hey, lets give kingdra OU Auto rain. It already goes into 3x FSU mode in UBERS with rain.

Sandstream-Ground,Steel,Rock
Teams based an immune strategy to stream while wearing stuff down

I have not yet seen 1 stall SS team. The closest is Obis, and that negates Lefties on everything bar Hippo.

Hail teams-Ice
Same thing as stream but they are not enough good ice pokes or ice poke with out the same common weakness something that needs to work too in the cap process but we have add syclant to that is a good start.

Hail teams are beaten by all teams bar SS teams, especially those with a Heatran/Infernape

Hybrid weather teams-Half the team benefits from the weather

Actually it's a weather team with 2 or more weather effects.

AntiWeather team-Featuring the weather canceling poke and whatever strategy you want.

And it only works if you're coming up against a weather team, and that's not a 100% guarantee like you've made it sound.

As the game stands right now we have normal teams,sand stream,and hail teams.Here is where the topic truly comes into play.I said in another thread to have a sunny day poke you need a drizzle,another hail poke and weather canceling poke.The answer reply back at the was you want the cap project next four poke be those pokes? And at the time i kinda agreed but this is my thinking now if making four poke makes 20-30 pokes usable isn't that worth it.We have flaw in the metagame that we can fix that will add more pokes in play.The Cap project mission statement is make more usable pokes.Auto weather brings more variety of poke if we put in right measures.Right Now i see two solutions.

1.We add Auto cancel Weather Poke.We add auto drizzle poke similar to greenhouse house is setup and another usable Hail poke

2.Auto weather canceling poke and Another solid Air Lock /Cloud Nine Poke.

Discussion question is can weather implemented in OU metagame without being over powered and how can this be achieved.

Basic thing is this is fucking not viable. You absolutly cannot impliment any more Auto weather without making it broken. You're making it seem that Weather = win. Heres a fact: IT DOESN'T. To solve the problem, let's not give any more auto weather in the first place.

 

[Sunday]

If we're going to have a civilised conversation here, I think two things need to happen. Aki needs to shut up about spartan lazers which no one gets but him, and we need spaces after every full stop (.) or question mark (?).

I'll post my thoughts on the matter in just a moment.

EDIT: Aki the second one is aimed at the OP.

 

[Aki]

Bleh get on the fucking CAP server when i'm on and you'll understand in full. If i had access to a sig, i'd put it there.

And I put full stops at the end of my sentences, unless my gay ass keyboard decides to ignore that i pressed there or it puts a "k" there instead.

 

[Sunday]

Here is what should be focus of the Cap project until we fix it "Weather Effects".The truth is right now the game is about sandstream.It is very hard make a team without having big adjustment for sandstream.Seriously can you make a successful competitive team with have ground/steel or rock pokemon on the team.Maybe.Was that case in past?No.Auto weather traits have a potential to take over how the game is played.They couple ways to deal with auto weather

Now, here's the thing. If the game was as much about sandstream as you say it is, with every team specifically geared around and prepared for continual sand then there is something very wrong with that. If the metagame were that overcentralised then it would give a huge advantage to the people running hail, rain and sun teams. Every team prepared for 100% sand would be nurfed to some extent. Stalling would suddenly be unfavourable if the opponent is immune to the residual damage and you're losing HP from it. Your rock types suddenly aren't nearly as durable as they were before and your opponent has boosted Surf flying everywhere.

The point is the metagame is not as overcentralised as this, it has reached a point of equilibrium. The reason for this is that weather does not have as big an impact on the game as some people think. Sure, sand is annoying, but everything under the sun gets immunity too it. It just happens to be the commonest because of that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think it would be interesting to make weather the focus of the next CAP Pokemon, with two weather-inducing abilities to choose from. Fire/Water to introduce Drought/Drizzle or their balanced equivalents? Grass/Electric to abuse instant Solarbeam and never-miss Thunder? Ice/Rock for the ideal staller? (I get the feeling that last one already exists, though...)

Meh, these are mostly fanboyish hopes. But I'd love for weather to become another viable tactic to use in the metagame, and not just a niche beyond the constant Sandstorms TTar and Hippowdon bring with them.

 

[Luck]

LETS BRING OUT THE SPARTAN LASERS!



Basic thing is this is fucking not viable. You absolutly cannot impliment any more Auto weather without making it broken. You're making it seem that Weather = win. Heres a fact: IT DOESN'T. To solve the problem, let's not give any more auto weather in the first place.

I was not trying to make weather seem like a win.Auto weather increases the types of teams you will counter.If you can put in the right counter measure then Metagame with auto weather effects will be a more diverse game which is a good thing.

I guess the question to ask you is if blissey or cresse had the trait to cancel out weather effects would you be afraid of a drought team or drizzle team

 

[Aki]

The thing is, we can avoid the whole confusion stuff by not making an OU auto weather in the first place.

 

[DougJustDoug]

This is a borderline thread, but I'm not going to close it immediately. If this can be a civilized and intelligent discussion of how CAP should/should not use weather to alter the metagame -- then I think it could be a good thread. If it drops into insults, complaints, or unreasoned discussion -- I'll shut it down.

I think the impact of weather on the metagame is very interesting. I think it has so many facets that it is hard to pin down. But, we have some intelligent people on this project, with deep battling experience. I hope those folks contribute here.

 

[Aki]

It is a huge impact. I would post a huge analysis, but this thread hasen't gone far enough yet. We'd have to boost the effects of SS/Hail or nerf Sun/Rain for all auto weathers to be viable.

 

[X-Act]

Auto-weather is not broken if the Pokemon that has the auto-weather ability has less than Abomasnow-ish stats.

But it seems like everyone wants to create Pokemon with 525+ BST. If this will continue to happen, I'll never vote for auto-weather abilities.

 

[Aki]

Not necessarily true. It's not the pokemon that brings the weather, it's the effect the weather has. For example, do you use Abomasnow for anything else other then Bringing hail, Lureing Heatran or attempting a Gimmick Scarf set?

 

[Hyra]

Auto-weather is not broken if the Pokemon that has the auto-weather ability has less than Abomasnow-ish stats.

But it seems like everyone wants to create Pokemon with 525+ BST. If this will continue to happen, I'll never vote for auto-weather abilities.

Agreeing with X-Act. After this latest project, I've started to see that a lower BST / stat rating is better for our Pokemon. It gives us more freedom later on in the process. Of course, that's not the point of this thread.

Anyways, biggest difference between Rain/Sun + Hail/Sand. Rain and Sun increase the power of an offensive-type by 1.5x, Hail and Sand do not. That is all the difference in the world needed. I won't even go into the doubling of Speed not granted under Hail/Sand or the fact that Hail/Sand do not have the power of some moves (2x defense boost for both > 1.5x boost for SDef > no boost at all).

 

[Lil Ant]

Auto weather for the CAP Forum seems like a great and fantastic idea to me. Weather seems like it should bring a unique flow to the current metagame. It can open doors for other Pokemon to fall in place over other Pokemon. For example, Skarmory is used more than Forretress because it can Roost and Whirlwind/Roar. While maybe Forretress appearance can upsurge because a Pokemon can provide prompt, and lasting rain.

It can also help other Pokemon see usage in the OU environment. Pokemon such a Shiftry, Exeggutor and/or Tropius or even Floatzel, Scizor and/or Relicanth. Now as weather seems like this awesome and fun thing, it also has its downside. It may eliminate most OU Pokemon from being used as much anymore.

Many people know that Kingdra and Kabutops have hard time running into counters while under rain. Which in turn, may eliminate other sweepers that we use to save a spot for on our team for. Change can be good, change can be bad, hell, change can be both good and bad. Immediate lasting weather though, seems like a change for good

I also think it will help lower the BST for the following CAP Pokemon. So far we have created all solitary Pokemon. They do have an insignificant amount of support moves so they may help the team out a little bit. But lets be real, certain Pokemon you can tell are there for their unit, while other Pokemon there for their self. A low BST Pokemon, that can basically pillar bits and pieces of the 6 man Pokemon party the trainer put together is needed. We have been creating Garchomps, Infernapes and Tyranitars so to speak. I think it's time we start to shift the core of this CAP project to Pokemon in comparison of Ludicolos, Cloysters, Claydols and Clefables. Most of the Pokemon that fall into that class, are purely support Pokemon. At least make this shift last for about 3-4 CAP Pokemon, lets not make it last forever.

Rock Pokemon actually got showed love by getting a Special Defense boost in Sandstorm, and 2 Pokemon that bring the immediate weather. Ice Pokemon got showed some love as well. A 100% accuracy move under Hail, and even has a Pokemon bringing that prompt lasting weather. Why not show the most elite, yet rivaled types some love? We only have Bronzong, Blissey and Cresselia as the weather changers in OU right about now. Kyogre and Groudon are stuck in Ubers. OU is so titanic, in terms of usable Pokemon and prolific schemes, i don't see the substantial problem with adding the last two weathers as toys to play with.

 

[Luck]

I will ask the question again.If we where to make a pokemon with survivability of Cresseila with trait that every time appears weather effects go away would drought and drizzle be that bad ?

 

[Sunday]

I will ask the question again.If we where to make a pokemon with survivability of Cresseila with trait that every time appears weather effects go away would drought and drizzle be that bad ?

For us that would require making two simultaneous pokemon, which is a tad beyond us right now. We already have air lock revvy anyway...

 

[Hyra]

For us that would require making two simultaneous pokemon, which is a tad beyond us right now. We already have air lock revvy anyway...

Air Lock only works while Revvy is in play, so it's only use would be stalling out a temporary weather ability. Revvy also rarely uses Air Lock anymore, plus he wouldn't like double-STAB Fire/Water moves.

Hm... a Fire/Water that gets Drizzle and Drought.... Hm...

 

[Captain]

It's not as survivable than cress and it is also SR weak.

 

[Sunday]

Hence I initially sugested two whole new Pokemon, only pointing out Rev as an afterthought.

 

[Hyra]

Hence I initially sugested two whole new Pokemon, only pointing out Rev as an afterthought.

Not if we make a Fire/Water with both. If that had anywhere decent stats it should get at least 2x the usage of Abomasnow.

 

[Sunday]

Right so we're going to make one Pokemon with one auto weather ability and one to remove the weather? That or we're making an Uber weather stopper. Now I'm confused.

 

[Hyra]

Right so we're going to make one Pokemon with one auto weather ability and one to remove the weather? That or we're making an Uber weather stopper. Now I'm confused.

I don't know..... Auto-perma-weather is so powerful.... It would basically take three concurrent and intertwined processes to work:

1 Sun inducer
1 Rain inducer
1 Remover of weather (this would be the hardest).

If we get stuck on the first two, we could scale back Groudon and Kyogre and use that as a guide. The last one would definitely take the most thought.

 

[X-Act]

I'd like to point out that an auto-rain and/or auto-sun Pokemon ability would revolutionalise the CAP metagame completely. It would be practically indistinguishable from the normal metagame.

It would be even more so than if my suggestion of improving Poison-types and nerfing a few Pokemon having unSTABbed Stone Edge and Fire moves was heeded. And my suggestion was shot down.

So I dunno... if we allow auto-rain and/or auto-sun, I'd be a bit pissed off that something relatively innocuous was shot down, while something so drastic to the metagame is allowed.

 

[Luck]

I don't see like that.I see pokemon like that as the key pokemon to building a stable game with weather.This pokemon will be built by community to ensure that a weather pokes would not run rampant an you use alternate strategy other than weather teams.

Thats point of this topic what strategy will use to ensure weather is keep in check because contrary Aki believes it is not a matter if auto weather trait will happen it is when will it happen and when happens will have a plan in place to make sure it does go over board.

So think of it as your the Cap project Mod.Think of what rules would put in place to keep weather poke from going overboard.

My short list looks like

1.Weather negating poke must made
2.The Weather abilites last for only 8 turns not infinite
3.Base Stat 494 like Abomasnow

 

[Helios]

IMO, there's two pokemon that'd get huge surges in useage if auto sun or rain pokemon appeared; Heatran and Kingdra. Specs Heatran's Fire Blast 2HKOs blissey in the sun, Kingdra is out runs just about everything in rain, although it's power is mediocre without a booster. Heatran also counters sunny day teams with flash fire and 4x res to grass.