Actually, christianity does not encourage blind faith. the bible says we should always question our beliefs. and I know quite a bit about science, bro!
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What IS the "meaning of life"? Does it differ person-to-person?
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1. Never call me bro
Christianity may not encourage blind faith, but Christians are quick to use whichever logic would still make the Bible correct or that will disprove anything that goes against it (i.e. evolution and genesis)
Christianity doesn't encourage skepticism and doubt, it just speaks of it and understand it will happen. Still it will insist on placing faith in God in such troubled times or even that skepticism is proof of God's greatness. No religion would encourage disbelief.
Never implied other wise, buddy!
So heaven is having our autonomy completely stripped away? How in the world is that "paradise"? Seems rather odd to me for God to want us to love him on our own free will so he can take us all up to Heaven and have us be unable to love him (since it apparently only means something if we love him on our own).
Hell sounds pretty sweet right now.
If free will is necessary to show true love why are we stripped of it once in Heaven?
Also can you show your sources? I'd like to see where it says we are stripped of free will while in Heaven.
I also find it funny that you say "they were perfect except [insert flaw here]. By that definition they weren't perfect. It would be like me trying to sell you the perfect car, but then I mention that the car has no engine.
Also they both were gullible and were tricked by a snake.
If I was to choose between eternal happiness and no free will, or free will but eternal pain and sorrow I would most definitely choose the former.
@dragonking It seems from what you have posted that you view life on earth as some kind of test to see who will follow god. But if god is omnipotent then he should be able to predict the results of any est without preforming it. So why would he create people that would not come to him?
At least with the latter you'll feel anything.
The former you might as well be lobotomized or put on on such a heavy cocktail of drugs that you're not aware of anything around you. You won't feel any happiness, because to be "happy" you have to be autonomous. No matter how much torture and excruciating pain I'm going through, at least in my mind I'm still me.
Incidentally, the "perfect place" argument is wrong anyway. There's a range of orbits a planet could be in and be habitable. There's a pretty decent range of star types that would be suitable. Stars brighten over time, further increasing the chance that at some point in their billions-of-years lifespan a planet will be hospitable to life. Planetary size can have an impact, but again, a pretty broad range is suitable. And this is before you even consider the possibility of lifeforms that can survive in very different conditions.
It's this drive of wanting to hold on to 'my' self, 'my' rights, 'my' identity over anything else (even to the extent that you'd choose HELL to keep it?!) that keeps us from developing a relationship with God. Pride is the root of all sin, it's why Lucifer did what he did, and only when you get past 'everything I deserve' can God give you everything you need and then some.
As far as heaven is concerned, I don't think it's really a question of losing your free will. Time and again, sin is referred to as bondage. You're not losing your ability to sin so much as your desire to. It's like the ultimate version of kicking a bad habit. That's pretty liberating.
First of all, MrIndigo, thanks for approaching this discussion in a constructive and non-derogatory fashion.
Perfection, as applied to God, is in the biggest sense of the word. There is no room for imperfection to a completely perfect being. This is far beyond the sense of the word of merely being 'a really really nice guy'. While God is tolerant and long-suffering, He is never accepting of sin and cannot abide by it.
I don't have much in the way of a post-secondary education except for an art degree. I can't write well constructed arguments, or talk about science with any confidence. But I just want to urge you, if you have sense of concern for your eternal soul, to give the Bible a meaningful study.
This isn't about telling you what you're not allowed to do, it's about putting you into contact with the Creator of the Universe. Christianity isn't about rules and traditions, but a relationship with God that He makes very real in your life once you put faith in Him. Not 'believes that He exists', but trusting Him enough to put your very life in His hands.
You can ask all the questions, 'why did Jesus have to die?' 'why did God create Hell?' 'why does he let horrible things happen if He's omnipotent?', but none of it will be meaningful to you until you ask it with a real sense of urgency and wanting to know, rather than as an attempt to deflate another person out of your own self-satisfaction.
I don't know if I would even post in this thread if not for His ongoing demonstrations of love and power in my life.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with pride. You can tell me it's sinful all you want, that only bears any significance to a believer.
Any religion that teaches me that the urges of my own body are somehow wrong and that wants me to surrender my own self-identity frankly isn't a religion for me. Spiritual guidance shouldn't mean I surrender myself in order for me to feel satisfied. Rather than replace who I am it should compliment it.
Booze, sex, more booze, more sex, even more booze, and even more sex.
Life's pretty much what you make of it. Some people leads lonely lives; others are party animals. Some enjoys helping others; some enjoys stealing from others. Everyone is different. Everyone is on a different path in life. Thus the meaning of life can only be defined by one's own perspective and what one makes of it.
Life's pretty much what you make of it. Some people leads lonely lives; others are party animals. Some enjoys helping others; some enjoys stealing from others. Everyone is different. Everyone is on a different path in life. Thus the meaning of life can only be defined by one's own perspective and what one makes of it.
When God created the world, he said it was GOOD, not perfect.
The bible does not say we will be stripped of free will in heaven. it is simply logic, though. the bible says in heaven we will live everlasting life, constantly loving and worshiping God for eternity. life on earth is a test of faith, and only those of faith will be in heaven.
and regarding PRIDE, history has shown us time and time again that pride is not good. you can see it everywhere in the world. the humble are always more fortunate. the prideful always just make enemies. pride is no good, from a LOGICAL standpoint.
oh, and i'm sorry if you don't want to be called 'bro' i will remember that in the future!
ah, but see, God understands true love. true love REQUIRES a choice. God has gifted us with free will. WE must choose.
I'm sorry that you would prefer hell than heaven. having no free will just means we will not have that forbidden tree. that's all. it doesn't mean we will be mindless slaves. and even if we were, it wouldn't matter, because it's eternal paradise!
Hell, on the other hand, is a place of eternal pain and punishment.
Please, I'm sorry if i have offended anyone in any way. I'm not trying to force my religion on anyone. but I do care about all of you, and am concerned for your lives!
*sigh* So much trivial debate...I may as well let you all know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PQ6335puOc&feature=related
why be in paradise if you can't enjoy it?
Keep in mind that I'm being called "prideful" because I want to keep my individuality and free will.
If I look at history, humanity has always fought against oppressors who insisted on trying to remove their ability to think and choose for themselves. If anything pride is not only good but a necessity and whenever the prideful does make enemies, it is because others aren't willing to tolerate those who think differently from them and don't behave the way they expect them to.
I won't deny that those who have taken "pride" too far and become arrogant doing terrible things, but that is just an example of an inappropriate use of "pride" or taking it in the wrong way. There are also tons of examples of "pride" resulting in wonderful things for people and prideful people making great accomplishments.
Logically, pride can be mishandled or misdirected like any other emotion. You see my "pride" as a terrible thing leading me away from happiness in the afterlife. I see your "humility" as a terrible thing leading you away from happiness in this life.
The difference between us is that you believe there is an afterlife and I believe there isn't.
To all of the above on religion and beliefs:
I go to a Jesuit-Catholic high school and we are made to take Catholic religion classes. Off of what I have learned in school it was made clear to me that we should not doubt God, but as part of being human we must. It leads to growth and understanding. We, as human beings, must also question our own world. Things such as politics, which are supposed to be separated from religion, should be part of religion to some degree. What I mean is that religion helps make decisions that are "right." we have never discussed heaven in class, but to me it is a place where one is happy; a place where there is no sin because there is no need to sin. Death does not occur and neither does pain or other feelings of sadness. These are all just things brought on by sin. We are all called upon to just be good people. We must take care of those forgotten, be sad with the sad, hungry with the hungry, powerless with the powerless, and homeless with the homeless. This is the only way to truly "see" Jesus. We see things differently from all of the aforementioned. We are all looking at the shadows on the wall of the cave and we must turn around to see reality. Again, this is what was taught to me in school and I do agree with just about all of it.
I go to a Jesuit-Catholic high school and we are made to take Catholic religion classes. Off of what I have learned in school it was made clear to me that we should not doubt God, but as part of being human we must. It leads to growth and understanding. We, as human beings, must also question our own world. Things such as politics, which are supposed to be separated from religion, should be part of religion to some degree. What I mean is that religion helps make decisions that are "right." we have never discussed heaven in class, but to me it is a place where one is happy; a place where there is no sin because there is no need to sin. Death does not occur and neither does pain or other feelings of sadness. These are all just things brought on by sin. We are all called upon to just be good people. We must take care of those forgotten, be sad with the sad, hungry with the hungry, powerless with the powerless, and homeless with the homeless. This is the only way to truly "see" Jesus. We see things differently from all of the aforementioned. We are all looking at the shadows on the wall of the cave and we must turn around to see reality. Again, this is what was taught to me in school and I do agree with just about all of it.
Okay. are you saying that death, as a whole is the result of sin? If so I would suggest you reconsider, but I'm assuming you just didn't put your thought into words properly.
Please people make some reasearch before posting, especially if you are against God. Seriously people come up with things that dont even apply to the religion, or any religion that supports one God.
Saying that you were brought up in a Christain family isnt good enough, if you didnt really belive it then, then you wouldnt take in all the information. So you wouldnt know half the religion
Saying that you were brought up in a Christain family isnt good enough, if you didnt really belive it then, then you wouldnt take in all the information. So you wouldnt know half the religion
Please provide some examples
You can't just come up in a discussion, say "omg you guys haven't done your research!" than walk away. If you find something that someone has posted is incorrect, point it out.
Afterall, (and I know I'm right about this) Christians are suppose to witness and teach people about the Good Word.
What is "perfection" anyway? Can it be defined? Measured? Quantified? Compared? Nothing can be simply "perfect" unless its purpose is defined. The perfect spoon is useless as a fork, the perfect fork hopeless as a spoon, and sporks are worse than either. It's easy to say "God is perfect", but unless you know the purpose of God you can't know what would make him perfect or otherwise. And surely God can have no purpose other than that he makes for himself, as he is the highest authority. Which means that God is neither perfect or imperfect, instead being outside the concept, just as the Moon is neither North nor South of Los Angeles.
Bit of a ramble there, feel free to refute.
Well it is, right? Death and suffering is the punishment laid down on all humanity for the sin of Eve and Adam disobeying God.
As has been mentioned, that hardly seems fair. It should be noted, however, that many societies through history have considered it appropriate to punish relatives of those who committed crimes. I don't know if the Israelites who wrote down the Old Testament thought this way, but the point is that what is considered "fair" or "just" varies between cultures.
I do not believe in the concept of an eternal soul. However, if you believe in the concept than it would make sense to study up on every single religion. Cartoons, I would like to know if you looked at other religions before deciding that Christianity was the correct one.
Studying the Bible in depth is worthless to me unless I am certain beforehand that it was truly written by a divine source. I've read a bit of the Bible here and there and I've not yet been convinced. In fact, the more I read the Bible the more I am convinced it was written by humans. For example, according to Gensis plants were created before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic process. Of course that is the first account of Gensis. The second account tells a different story. I find it odd that two contradicting stories exist considering the book was supposedly written by a perfect being. Gensis also seems to contradict evolution, unless someone wants to read Gensis as a metaphor, in which case the religion changes depending on how certain individuals want to interpret it.
I don't ask those questions to deflate others. I ask in the hopes that someone will provide evidence for the existence of god, or give me a very good argument for why a god exists.
who said we can't enjoy it? paradise means perfection. constant enjoyment, never a dull moment.
That is what I'm trying to do. I hope you will forgive me if I have offended anyone.
Pride does not have anything to do with questioning authority. in fact, pride is being blind to the facts, while humility is understanding and respecting others. I never said YOU were being prideful, and technically PRIDE in something is not bad. I am proud to be an american, proud to be a christian, and proud to be a pokemon fan! It's being proud of yourself, technically "vanity".
I am not trying to force my beliefs on you, I just hope I have cleared up some misconceptions regarding Christianity.
I'm not talking about whether it is just or not. I agree that many deaths have their roots in what a religious person would call a sin, however not all. There is death by natural causes etc. Also death is not restricted to humans. All living beings die. I highly doubt that God is punishing Amoebas because Adam and Eve ate an apple. I haven't read that anywhere in the Bible. That was my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat DrunkRacoon
Okay. are you saying that death, as a whole is the result of sin? If so I would suggest you reconsider, but I'm assuming you just didn't put your thought into words properly.
Well it is, right? Death and suffering is the punishment laid down on all humanity for the sin of Eve and Adam disobeying God.
As has been mentioned, that hardly seems fair. It should be noted, however, that many societies through history have considered it appropriate to punish relatives of those who committed crimes. I don't know if the Israelites who wrote down the Old Testament thought this way, but the point is that what is considered "fair" or "just" varies between cultures.
Well in your post you say that being mindless slaves in heaven would be okay because it's paradise. I'm just questioning to what extent a "mindless slave" can enjoy anything, including paradise. It's like saying that if I inject a rock with heroin it will get high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Dragonking700
it doesn't mean we will be mindless slaves. and even if we were, it wouldn't matter, because it's eternal paradise!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat DrunkRacoon
why be in paradise if you can't enjoy it?
Originally Posted by Fat Dragonking700
who said we can't enjoy it? paradise means perfection. constant enjoyment, never a dull moment.
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