Why isn't Low Kick on more Rest/Sleep Talk Guts Machamps? Damage Calculations inside!

[Setrack]

i would prefer to use

machamp@lefties
[no guard]
rest/sleep talk/dynamic punch/stone edge
252/252/4||hp/def/atk

i find that with a rest talk set you want all the defense evs for sponging powerful hits and with the minimal attack evs the confusion rate of dynamic punch really helps machamp survive for a longer period

 

[Kankuro]

This is actually really interesting. I'll admit that I've never even thought about Low Kick competitively at all. Close Combat over Low Kick would be a personal preference IMO, but I haven't really tested Restalk Machamp in any of my teams.

 

[Kietharr]

Never thought of it before, makes perfect sense though as Vaporeon is really the only light weight defensive pokemon who doesn't resist fighting anyways (celebi, uxie, mesprit, ect). Awesome idea for a defensive guts restalking status absorber. I can see low kick/stone edge/rest/sleep talk being pretty good, you're losing the dark type coverage against the psychic types but I doubt you'd want to stay in on them anyways.

 

[maddog]

In my mind, Machamp should always use No Guard and DynamicPunch on Defensive sets, and CC on really offensive sets. The confusion rate just screws up too many things to not be conisdered.

 

[Baldafor]

I am getting confused. Is this a No Guard vs. Guts topic, or a Low Kick on Guts set topic?

I personally prefer Low Kick to Close Combat on this Guts set because I rarely would get in a situation where Low Kick would underperform enough to cause me to lose a match. Damage is good, but even unSTABed attacks threaten OHKO on a switch with the damage drop, and I don't like having to roll those dice.

 

[zxn666]

This should be a low kick on guts topic, so lets not talk about No guard, ok?

Anyways, I've always thought that on defensive sets, Close Combat = fail since it lowers both your defenses, which completely defeats the purpose of defensive sets.

However, I am not convinced about Low Kick. The damage calcs shown have many other moves listed. Please list how much Low Kick does to certain key pokemon instead, not the other moves.

 

[gorm]

man do people use guts machamp? dynamic punch is one of the best moves in the game =\
statistically gaining 1 free turn almost all the time is one of the best things you can get in pokemon. machamp just does it very innefficiently

cb guts machamp does well with thunderwave but i'd still rather cc on him. the stat lowering effect is king of negligeable because he's so slow.

the only good sleeptalking fighting guts mon is rest sleep talk megahorn bulk up hera with scarftrio xD

 

[Darkmalice]

Sleep Talk Machamp typically uses Guts, so Dynamic Punch is only 50% accurate.

Actually, I find more Sleep Talk Machamp use No Guard. Dynamic Punch confusion is too good to pass up.

But if I was using Guts, I rather use Close Combat over Low Kick. It has 120 base power on every pokemon, and the defence drops are insignificant on such a slow pokemon. Low Kick's varying power is too unreliable for your main form of STAB, unless your a Grass pokemon, as Grass Knot is likely to do at least the same amount of damage as Energy Ball. However, Low Kick will never do more damage than Close Combat.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Actually, I find more Sleep Talk Machamp use No Guard. Dynamic Punch confusion is too good to pass up.

But if I was using Guts, I rather use Close Combat over Low Kick. It has 120 base power on every pokemon, and the defence drops are insignificant on such a slow pokemon. Low Kick's varying power is too unreliable for your main form of STAB, unless your a Grass pokemon, as Grass Knot is likely to do at least the same amount of damage as Energy Ball. However, Low Kick will never do more damage than Close Combat.

See, people like you are talking about how "unreliable" Low Kick is, but they never say anything specific as to what times they'd prefer CC over LK, when I myself have gone out of my way to say which times LK is preferable over CC, and no one's ever responded. Once again, if you (as in people in general, not just you DM) want to contribute to the discussion, point out specific times instead of just saying "No, Close Combat is t3h b3st F1ghting m00ve EV4R!".

 

[Raverist]

So what about Blissey?

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Low Kick does 82.91% - 97.48% to 252 HP/252 Def Bold Blissey. Though it really doesn't matter, I mean, Blissey?

 

[mien]

Close Combat is and will always be the best fighting move , 120 power/100 acc without any attack drops is too freakin awesome, broken actually. Close Combat is the reason why Fighting types are now far more threatening then ever

Even with the defence drops everyone will still consider using Close combat. Machamp is not a wall but a tank so it doesn't mind the defence drops as much as you think

Besides the reason why Grass knot is used so much is because energy ball a move with a pathetic 80 power is the only other alternative.

 

[sbc]

If you're using a Guts set on Machamp, why not use Close Combat which has guaranteed 120 BP anyway.

edit: should've read mien's post

 

[Syberia]

Actually, I find more Sleep Talk Machamp use No Guard. Dynamic Punch confusion is too good to pass up.

Well if you're going to be running No Guard anyways, then it's a non-issue, as there's no reason at all to ever run No Guard without Dynamic Punch.

Now that you mention it, No Guard + D-Punch is probably the better option, even on a Sleep Talker.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Well if you're going to be running No Guard anyways, then it's a non-issue, as there's no reason at all to ever run No Guard without Dynamic Punch.

Now that you mention it, No Guard + D-Punch is probably the better option, even on a Sleep Talker.

I myself run No Guard-DynamicPunch Sleep Talk Machamp most of the time.

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

^Because this was supposed to be a discussion about Guts Machamp. God I'm sounding like a broken record. Did you even read the topic title? GUTS MACHAMP. Did you even read my first post?

Sorry if I haven't tested it yet, but I just came up with it, so I'm going to try and do some damage calculations, please suggest some if you can think up of more, I'm just doing a couple right now as I'm going through the OU list.

Sorry if I haven't tested it yet, but I just came up with it, so I'm going to try and do some damage calculations, please suggest some if you can think up of more, I'm just doing a couple right now as I'm going through the OU list.

If you had bothered reading, you would known that I haven't tested this set yet. It's kind of important that you do read the words someone posts carefully instead of posting whatever thought comes off the top of your head.

 

[Drab Emordnilap]

Sorry if I haven't tested it yet, but I just came up with it, so I'm going to try and do some damage calculations, please suggest some if you can think up of more, I'm just doing a couple right now as I'm going through the OU list.

If you had bothered reading, you would known that I haven't tested this set yet. It's kind of important that you do read the words someone posts carefully instead of posting whatever thought comes off the top of your head.

The forum rules say...

Moveset, Strategy and Discussion Threads Broad discussion threads about a single Pokémon no longer have a purpose. As such, they are no longer allowed in Stark Mountain. Before posting a "new" moveset or strategy, check the Strategy Pokédex for the Pokémon first, it may be listed there already. When proposing a new set or strategy, test it out first. You can get plenty of battle experience on WiFi or Shoddy Battle.

 

[mien]

text

Nobody is going to bother to judge a set you didn't test yourself.

 

[Syberia]

While that may be true, I did see a lot of Low Kicking Machamps in the hands of the lesser-skilled Shoddybattlers yesterday :P

 

[Stagnant]

Finally gives me a reason not to use No Guard Dynamic Punch. But in regards to the fighting type superiority discussion... (in order from best to not best >.>)

No Guard - Dynamic Punch
Close Combat
Brick Break/ Mach Punch
Low Kick
X-Chop
Everything Else

 

[Kittymew]

So then...an interesting discussion is this: Low Kick over X-Chop on Electivire? Probably should be in another thread, but people talking about Low Kick are already here.

 

[Darkmalice]

See, people like you are talking about how "unreliable" Low Kick is, but they never say anything specific as to what times they'd prefer CC over LK, when I myself have gone out of my way to say which times LK is preferable over CC, and no one's ever responded. Once again, if you (as in people in general, not just you DM) want to contribute to the discussion, point out specific times instead of just saying "No, Close Combat is t3h b3st F1ghting m00ve EV4R!".

Low Kick will never do more damage than Close Combat. And because Machamp is so slow, the defence drops mean little. So in any Guts CB set, Close Combat > Low Kick. The only times Low Kick will pay off are when Machamp is slower than the opponent (even if he doesn't OHKO, he would probably end up swapping out anyways).

On a Guts Sleep Talker, Close Combat is not recommended for obvious reasons. In that case, the choice would be between Low Kick, Cross Chop and Revenge. Guts Brick Break only does a bit more damage than Dynamic Punch, so I don't consider it a viable option.

But one of the main problems with Low Kick, compared to Cross Chop, is that Cross Chop always deals a high 100 base power, whilst Low Kick can may be a pitiful 80 or 60. And your Fighting move would be the main move of choice to use, and you would always want it to be powerful when you use it. As mentioned earlier, Low Kick doesn't even OHKO Blissey.

 

[Chimera]

So then...an interesting discussion is this: Low Kick over X-Chop on Electivire? Probably should be in another thread, but people talking about Low Kick are already here.

Cross Chop is better against Blissey, and since Vire lacks STAB it really needs every point it can get to guarantee the 2HKO, especially on versions that include special attack evs to use Tbolt

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

Low Kick will never do more damage than Close Combat. And because Machamp is so slow, the defence drops mean little. So in any Guts CB set, Close Combat > Low Kick. The only times Low Kick will pay off are when Machamp is slower than the opponent (even if he doesn't OHKO, he would probably end up swapping out anyways).

On a Guts Sleep Talker, Close Combat is not recommended for obvious reasons. In that case, the choice would be between Low Kick, Cross Chop and Revenge. Guts Brick Break only does a bit more damage than Dynamic Punch, so I don't consider it a viable option.

But one of the main problems with Low Kick, compared to Cross Chop, is that Cross Chop always deals a high 100 base power, whilst Low Kick can may be a pitiful 80 or 60. And your Fighting move would be the main move of choice to use, and you would always want it to be powerful when you use it. As mentioned earlier, Low Kick doesn't even OHKO Blissey.

Low Kick actually hits most of OU in for 80-120 range, and in the instances where it's below 80-120, they're probably hit Super Effective by one of your possible secondary moves anyway.

 

[Mekkah]

But you only have one other secondary move, so you may be stuck doing even shittier damage than otherwise.