Wide / Quick Guard: New Mechanics

[sarysa]

edit: Since this is post #1 I've cleaned it up a bit.

Anyway, Wide Guard is definitely bugged changed. I first became aware of it since I've never ever failed a second Wide Guard before, out of maybe 15-20 attempts. After awhile I started ruling out luck and today, I did some hard testing. The (partial) results can be viewed here:

Wide Guard almost never fails when used in succession. The video above shows it being used 10 times in a row without fail. The odds of this happening can be found by factoring in the odds of the nine follow-up Wide Guards. 1/2, 1/4, 1/8...1/512. The fully factored odds (with the old rules) are 1 in 35,184,372,088,832.

(edited out excess data) I had done four tests of 10 wide guards each with only one failure among said tests.

(edit) Based on the replies this seems to be intentional, not some flaw with the RNG. The only odd part was the one failure I had. (Level 51's quote: It probably failed because your opponent(s) used move(s) that doesn't/don't activate Wide Guard (eg Protect).)

So anyway, like one of the moderators said, it's worth discussing the implications of this new change.

 

[LordRandomness]

I posted in the research thread (in the research forum, natch) already noting that Wide Guard/Quick Guard no longer have the failure chance. Given that the descriptions have had "The chance of failure rises if used in succession" removed from them this generation, I suspect this change was intentional.

 

[Level 51]

Are you sure you actually did get the failure on the second trial? As far as we know, Wide and Quick Guard do not fail at all.

 

[sarysa]

Ah, so it's not just me. Sorry, a mod told me to post in this forum, heh.

That said, what's up with the one 1111101111 run I had? Unfortunately my videos were full when that happened so I have no proof, but I'm not quite sure it's intentional if that one failure is mixed in there.

edit: I'll try to duplicate it. It shouldn't be too hard. (famous last words) Hoping it's not one of those old freak 1/256 deals...
edit2: sigh, another fail-post on my part I guess. The Maison battles are getting increasingly hostile against my test attempts (can't Vs. Recorder wild battles either) and I'm guessing the failure was an RNG fluke, which I don't have the patience for. (the RNG _hates_ me) All I can do is hope someone comes along and validates the rare failure, which based on everyone's assertions is probably the bug.
edit3: Mods, if this thread seems worth keeping around, could "is bugged" be removed from the title? I guess at least its existence here would keep others from posting the same thing...

 

[Level 51]

It probably failed because your opponent(s) used move(s) that doesn't/don't activate Wide Guard (eg Protect). That said, let's move into discussion of the implications of this mechanic on the metagame as opposed to the mechanic itself.

 

[Nollan]

Well, obviously, utilizing spread moves has become more difficult. Planning to use Earthquake on Aegislash? Sorry, no can do. It can use Wide Guard indefinitely (well indefinitely up to 16 times, I guess), so the only way you are going to land a hit with EQ is by outplaying your opponent.

As a result, non-spread moves will be key to working around Wide Guard and I can easily see moves like Stone Edge being preferred over Rock Slide on several Pokemon for this reason.

 

[Laga]

God dammit.



As if TopMoth wasn't good enough already ¬_¬

 

[sarysa]

Aegislash has it?! Bulbapedia says otherwise, but it fell way behind due to being uneditable for two weeks...

The four most common known users (at least in rating triples, which overlaps with doubles somewhat) are Hitmontop, Aerodactyl, Hariyama, and Mienshao...three of which are susceptible to Psychic moves, which are only single-target if I'm not mistaken? But if Aegislash has it, some single-target fire or ghost move on one of your reserve mons could become a requirement.

 

[Speedholes]

Aegislash apparently gets Wide Guard as an egg move, but it hasn't been confirmed in the research thread and I'm not sure if there are even any parents in the right egg group. So don't get too crazy just yet.

Still I wonder if this change will increase the viability of higher power moves like Stone Edge and Fire Blast over spread attacks. Aerodactyl is also starting to look interesting with a cool collection of toys - Wide Guard, Tailwind, Defog, Unnerve, a fast Taunt and a new Mega-Evo. I can see him being a pain to go up against on the right team.

Is this also the place to discuss the change to Quick Guard? Not that there's all that much to discuss, no one really uses Quick Guard.

Volcarona 4 lyfe

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Is this also the place to discuss the change to Quick Guard? Not that there's all that much to discuss, no one really uses Quick Guard.

It might see niche use if it stops Talonflames priority attacks granted by Gale Wings other wise I think it's just too situational to use.

Wide Guard buff is cool tho, blizzspam teams are going to have to think twice about how they're built to accommodate for the changes and we'll surely see some coinflip predictions coming up on the ladder.
It's like GF want everyone to use Hitmontop or something.

 

[tofucocoa]

actually i think quick guard will be useful to stop prankster moves and bullet punch (protects fairies/ttar). along with how it can be used repeatedly and how it can block fake out, i think terrakion/virizion and hitmontop will have a new support role they can mess around with. also it's worth mentioning that talonflame gets quick guard so it can protect its teammates from other talonflame (lol)

 

[Speedholes]

Male Meowstic also gets Prankster Quick Guard, which can block any priority in the game if I'm not mistaken (except Feint of course). Along with Fake Out, Helping Hand and Imprison it could be a fun little supporter.

It's like GF want everyone to use Hitmontop or something.

Hitmontop and Volc bff 4 eva

 

[sarysa]

I for one will be adding Quick Guard to my team specifically for that...freaking...bird...

People are clearly putting a Choice Band on that thing, meaning unless your team is rock/electric/steel heavy, it has to be eliminated or it'll wreak havoc on your team.

Oh, and real BFF's: Hitmontop and Talonflame. It can fake out credible threats -and- feint through Quick Guard.

 

[chuavechito]

Quick Guard wont stop moves that have increased priority because of Prankster. I doubt it will stop Talonflame's flying moves aswell.

 

[sarysa]

Quick Guard wont stop moves that have increased priority because of Prankster. I doubt it will stop Talonflame's flying moves aswell.

There are claims on some articles of Bulbapedia (but not others) claiming that Prankster has been changed and can be blocked by Quick Guard. So hopefully Talonflame will be susceptible as well.

If not...pardon my whining but geez, nerf now. Even -with- Quick Guard I'm frying my brain trying to come up with counterstrategies (against the Hitmontop-Talonflame duo) that don't involve having two Electric/Rock/Steel mons as my two starters.

Some of my pinings:
- If you have a Meowstic and Quick Guard, Hitmontop can still feint and then Talonflame nukes your attacker.
- If you Fake Out the Talonflame, you -might- get lucky and Hitmontop feints instead of Fake Out, in which case you'll get the kill. This is 50/50. If Hitmontop uses Fake Out, round 2 will be the above case.
- If you Fake Out the Hitmontop, Talonflame still nukes one or the other.
- The best possible combination seems to be a mix of e/r/s and Meowstic, but Talonflame could just be withdrawn and nuke you later on. :P
- Mega Gengar is out of the question since it can't round 1 Shadow Tag. TF can be withdrawn. Without Fake Out support it'll get OHKO'd by Brave Bird.

The best option might be Gothitelle-Meowstic. (she can _usually_ tank brave bird with defensive EVs) In fact it may be the only option. It's a shame Umbreon can't learn Foul Play in Gen VI, because it gets Inner Focus and could easily tank a choice'd Brave Bird and OHKO Talonflame.

 

[n3ther]

You're completely overvaluing Talonflame as a threat. His pitiful attack makes him easily walled by resists and intimidate users, e.g., Gyarados, Tyranitar, Mega Ampharos, Heatran(after pokebank), Arcanine, and Rotom-w. Most of these pokemon will already find themselves on a team and conveniently work as Talonflame counters. Talonflame is predictable and can only single target so smart switching and protects will always deal with him.

 

[sarysa]

We probably should move this to another thread, but the fact you may have to redesign your team around Talonflame is indicative of how much of a threat it is. (and although Smogon rules are different, PSS Rating Doubles will probably ban Heatran like the other legendaries...) Intimidate is a risky ability due to Trace Gardevoir being popular as well...

None of those mons will stop Talonflame from switching out and sweeping your fragile speedsters later on, either...so you're going to have to keep your Brave Bird checker alive.

edit: yeah, sorry for derailing my own thread, haha. I'll copy these arguments to Talonflame for discussion there. :)

 

[Arcticblast]

(and although Smogon rules are different, PSS Rating Doubles will probably ban Heatran like the other legendaries...) Intimidate is a risky ability due to Trace Gardevoir being popular as well...

Heatran has never been banned from official formats unless their rulesets were limited to the game's region; Heatran will likely be permitted on the PSS. That said, this is Smogon and we give somewhat fewer fucks than average about the PSS (although it's still cool!).

Zygarde is an excellent check to Talonflame, taking a Brave Bird somewhat well and responding with Rock Slide to end it. Trick Room in general does well against Talonflame, really, since everything is bulkier and can stop it from doing much besides Brave Bird.

 

[Level 51]

I've edited the thread title to include Quick Guard as well; feel free to discuss that here as well!
As for Talonflame, from experience it is easily stopped by Intimidate and Zapdos basically fucks up the entire Talonflame/Hitmontop duo.

 

[sarysa]

Heatran has never been banned from official formats unless their rulesets were limited to the game's region; Heatran will likely be permitted on the PSS. That said, this is Smogon and we give somewhat fewer fucks than average about the PSS (although it's still cool!).

My only basis for this assumption is that the legendary birds are banned from PSS, and they really aren't all that powerful either. (not as threatening as X/Y anyway...X being Cloyster whose defenses go up instead of down...oh, and a drain heal)

(a bunch of us earlier talking about Quick Guard and Talonflame)

I tested it a bit and Quick Guard blocks the bird. Oh, and people are making teams around that ridiculous ability...had one person Taunt my quick guarder and then switch from the taunter to a Storm Drain Ability mon. Christ...

I'm going to have to put one electric and one steel in my team. It even two-shots my defensive Togekiss.

 

[tennisace]

Well, obviously, utilizing spread moves has become more difficult. Planning to use Earthquake on Aegislash? Sorry, no can do. It can use Wide Guard indefinitely (well indefinitely up to 16 times, I guess), so the only way you are going to land a hit with EQ is by outplaying your opponent.

As a result, non-spread moves will be key to working around Wide Guard and I can easily see moves like Stone Edge being preferred over Rock Slide on several Pokemon for this reason.

I disagree with your assessment somewhat. Sure, Aegislash and other Pokemon can spam these moves now, but that means you only have one Pokemon doing damage or supporting the team per turn. Getting consistently outdamaged by your opponent isn't a good strategy at all.

 

[Becquerel]

Quick Guard is actually a completely viable move now, since it removes the need to outspeed any Fake-Out users as well as stomping common priority users so it's not a one-turn wonder. Unfortunately, Showdown! has not been updated to accommodate the changes, I'm pretty sure. Another thing I want to ask is if Quick Guard also blocks moves that aren't normally priority, such as Prankster and Gale Wings. It didn't work on Showdown!, but I do not have a Quick Guard user on the cartridge at the time, so I'm not sure if it's accurate or not.

 

[sarysa]

Quick Guard is actually a completely viable move now, since it removes the need to outspeed any Fake-Out users as well as stomping common priority users so it's not a one-turn wonder. Unfortunately, Showdown! has not been updated to accommodate the changes, I'm pretty sure. Another thing I want to ask is if Quick Guard also blocks moves that aren't normally priority, such as Prankster and Gale Wings. It didn't work on Showdown!, but I do not have a Quick Guard user on the cartridge at the time, so I'm not sure if it's accurate or not.

All in all, I really like Quick Guard as a means to protect my low-on-health but fastest-on-field mon from priority move abusers. It's countered in some cases (Talonflame using U-Turn instead of Brave Bird) but most priority moves are on slower mons, so QG has won a couple close matches for me.

Also, Meowstic = guaranteed block of any Fake Out. Other mons with Quick Guard do not have guaranteed Fake Out protection. Pairing him (only the male gets it) with a Kangaskhan has allowed my Kangaskhan to overcome faster Kangaskhan...at least when the opponent isn't wise to it. :D

 

[Becquerel]

Having just tested in-game and on Showdown!, Quick Guard actually does block Prankster and Gale Wings, despite what Showdown! would lead you to believe. Quick Guard is totally replacing Fake Out on my Meowstic.

 

[Darkflagrance]

I can't wait for Quick Guard to be fixed on Showdown. It counters all the priority user teams (ciao Aegislash, Khan, and Scizor) SO HARD and no one expects it.