I'd argue that everyone knows crobat's normal set too, even if it is UU or BL. But yea ok Im gunna stop arguing for it now even though I still think band is seriously underrated because its not getting anywhere
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Just because it is the fastest Defog in the game, it doesn't mean that it's the most reliable. 85/80/80 defenses is not the bulkiest to fufill the role. There are many other bulkier Pokemon that can perform the role of Defog better, such as Latias, Mandibuzz, and Scizor, with Latias and Scizor being able to hit back hard (and Mandibuzz with Foul Play).
you can't just say that a pokemon doesn't deserve a ranking without actually giving any real proof. amoonguss can be useful in the metagame and is a hard counter to azumarill. his typing, spore and regenerator make him a good pokemon. i'm saying he should be at least considered B-/C+/C. I know he is outclassed completely by mega venesaur, but I still believe he is useful. this gen. look at my calcs i posted on pg. 55
While Amoongus isn't a great pokemon, it deserves to be ranked. It was significantly nerfed by grass types being immune to spore and stun spore and as such struggles against common pokemon such as venesaur. What it does still have is great defensive typing and regenerator to separate itself from venesaur. As such i feel C/C+ would be a good place for it.
I remember reading that Defog will not decrease evasion through Sub, however, it WILL remove hazards. Can someone else confirm or deny this? No, I will not take your repeated insistance that it does not go through sub without any proof as a confirmed denial. Until denied, I will believe that the first sentence in this post, not counting the quote, is accurrate. I have posted the question in the Defog thread and await a response there.
Also, on Crobat, what rank is this about? We haven't seen a rank proposal through this page, despite being 30 posts long (this post is the 31st). I see the point of the supporters, but, tbh, I really think the opposers (or whatever you call them) are right on this one. It really does not have the bulk to get off a Roost to recover health or get off more than 1 Defog, esp. considering that you still have to take a hit afterwards and that most hazard setters are bulky.
252 HP / 58 SpD / 200 Spe is a fast Crobat, relatively bulky. You also missed out on fast taunt, as it is extremely good, unlike Spiritomb, Crobat carries U-Turn, and a fast U-Turn is always nice to keep momentum, Spiritomb can't defog, and is better off using WoW than Toxic, Infilitrator doesn't mean they are similar, Crobat is different support than Spiritomb; Spiritomb cannot clear any kinds of hazards, nor does he have a fast taunt or torment, nor can he carry the U-Turn. Latios is better off an offensive set, Latias is a very good deffoger yes, but it isn't as fast, can't use U-Turn or Taunt. Which are 2 of the main niches of Crobat.
If you want toxic support, yes a bulky support would be off better, but correct me if I'm wrong, no viable pokemon that can run Toxic + Venom Drench is bulky aside from maybe Roserade. But Crobat's niche is to wear down Walls, Stall, Supporters, and hazard-setters. It is not to wear down a sweeper. Crobat's niche is to eliminate walls & Stalls with Taunt, U-Turn, and Toxic, while eliminate Support and Hazards-setting pokemons with Defog, Taunt, and U-Turn.
I agree with you there bro, but no pokemon can fulfill the role of fast U-Turn, Defog, and Taunt at the same time. Mandibuzz is the only pokemon to learn them all together and happen to be a wall, but can it afford it? No, and neither it is fast.
C+ is ideal for Crobat.
It faces heavy competition from M-Venusaur for what is essentially the same teamslot, but I don't think it's outclassed completely either.
M-Venusaur has better bulk,
Amoongus has better long term recovery (through the ability to use an item and regenerator), more reliable sleep and doesn't take up your mega-slot.
I don't think it's fair to say it doesn't deserve a ranking either.
I was arguing for C+ here. It's not good enough to be any higher. Also, I also need somebody to confirm the Defog through Sub without Infilitrator concept.
...you are making it hard for me to not make insults. Amoonguss has an OU Analysis, therefore it can be ranked, no matter how high or low. It has the right to be ranked. No argument can be given against this and the fact that you feel like you have some authority figure when saying what can and can't be ranked is absolutely ignorant and rude.
NOW then...I would like to nominate/renominate (if anyone has already done so without being given notice) a Pokemon for ranking. I'm going to be talking about Breloom. Where do I begin with Breloom? It lost quite a bit this Generation, what with Low Sweep's boost (ironically a loss) and Spore can't hit Grass-Types, though this doesn't stop other Pokemon from using Spore or Sleep Powder (I'm looking at you, Mega Venusaur). However, Breloom did gain quite a bit to work with. Rock Tomb is now at 60 BP, making it slightly less powerful than Stone Edge (when factoring Technician), but with more accuracy and a nifty Speed lowering effect. Spore's nerf is also a blessing to Breloom because of its own Grass-Typing. Breloom maintains the same options otherwise, with SubPunch, Bulk Up+Drain Punch (yes, it's still used), Technician Mach Punch, and other possibilities. The problem I'm having is trying to figure out WHERE it should be ranked. My heart says Breloom should be B or B-, but I need more testing before I completely support this statement. Feel free to argue this one.
There are still quite a few Pokemon that need to be ranked, so I'm hoping to see more legitimate arguments (can I bold, italicize, underline, and CAPS "legitimate" so I can get the message clear for some people?).
Crobat is outclassed by Mandibuzz, and that is why it is a good fit in C+
also it doesn't take up a mega pokemon slot
This is a critical part of the reasoning. The Mega Slot is vital for teams, as they can get a cleaner, sweeper, or another wall out of it. Although Amoonguss is outclassed it helps the team by freeing up the mega slot. I think this deserves a C+/B- Rank.
Ammoongus is outclassed by many like i said. Examples/Reasons to why:
Sap Sipper Goodra- more common in OU today, as it completely walls Ammongus, even though Goodra doesn't benefit majorly from an Atk Boost, immunity for Spore/Leech Seed shuts Ammongus down. No Assault Vest Required. Even Sliggoo walls Ammoongus.
Ammongus' Speed- yes 114/85/80 defenses with Regenerator has it's advantages, good bulk, but with base 30 speed, it is very suspect to being Taunted. Not only that, there are many threats in OU that has the speed to outspeed Ammongus, and can 2HKO/3HKO it with powerful SE moves. With limited offensive pressure, after something falls Asleep, Ammongus is gonna be taking a lot of hits if you chose to stay in.
Against Common Threats:
4 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 270-320 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 273-322 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Amoonguss: 299-354 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 270-318 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
The bulk is there, but with many better support options if you wanna run Spore/Leech Seed, such as Mega Venasaur for it's bulk and power, Normal Venausar with Chlorryphyl, Whismicott (no Sleep Moves tho) due to Prankster and Speed, and Smeargle with it's versatility, Ammongus is outclassed and shouldn't be ranked.
I'm not being an authority figure, you are just being ignorant to the fact that Ammongus is outclassed in it's role by other OU Pokemon. It is bulky and has Regenerator, making it hard to OHKO, but in the end, there are many OU threats that can handle it in battle, and many supportive Pokemon that can prefer it's role better. If you really want to put something to sleep, Smeargle and Venusuar (even without it's mega), are examples of better options. No rank, unless you really want it to have a C-/D.
Someone brought up Volcarona a few pages ago, but I don't think anyone responded. I have no experience using Volc this gen, but it's my favorite Pokemon so I'm curious what others think about its viability.
On one hand, it did get some buffs. The improved Defog helps its Stealth Rock weakness, Bug Buzz now hits through subs, it got a new resistance to Fairy, and it finally got its Hidden Ability (although Flame Body is probably better than Swarm most of the time). On the other hand, it's threatened by many users of priority, such as Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, and especially Talonflame, who don't really care how many Quiver Dance boosts it has. It also faces a lot of competition for a team slot from the likes of Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Charizard Y; while some of those Pokemon operate completely differently than Volcarona, no one wants too many 4X-rock-weak Pokemon on their team.
With all that said, base 135 Special Attack remains very impressive, and Quiver Dance is still one of the best boosting moves in the game. So what place do people think this giant flaming Atlas Moth has in today's metagame?
On one hand, it did get some buffs. The improved Defog helps its Stealth Rock weakness, Bug Buzz now hits through subs, it got a new resistance to Fairy, and it finally got its Hidden Ability (although Flame Body is probably better than Swarm most of the time). On the other hand, it's threatened by many users of priority, such as Azumarill, Mega Pinsir, and especially Talonflame, who don't really care how many Quiver Dance boosts it has. It also faces a lot of competition for a team slot from the likes of Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Charizard Y; while some of those Pokemon operate completely differently than Volcarona, no one wants too many 4X-rock-weak Pokemon on their team.
With all that said, base 135 Special Attack remains very impressive, and Quiver Dance is still one of the best boosting moves in the game. So what place do people think this giant flaming Atlas Moth has in today's metagame?
I never said it wasn't. You said that it wasn't deserving of ANY ranking, so now you're playing politician with me by saying something completely different. Amoonguss deserves a ranking, even if it is only C+/C. I wouldn't say it's low enough for D, as I find that Amoonguss has some uses.
Don't you mean "perform its role better"? There are going to be Pokemon that can handle other Pokemon--that's a given. This kind of argument could be used to judge something like Slowbro or Slowking (Slowking is getting an analysis, so we should be ranking that, too). They are bulky and have Regenerator, making THEM hard to OHKO, but in the end, there are many OU threats that can handle it in battle, and many supportive Pokemon that can perform their roles better. See what I did there? All you did was give a general sum up of a general argument. That's what many of us like to call "weak arguing".
Major gripe here. You compared Amoonguss to Smeargle. You compared...a bulky tank...to a Pokemon usually dedicated to FEAR Passing. Those are two completely different roles, guy. So they put opponents to sleep--whoop de do. That makes them similar all of a sudden? It's like if I decided to say "Alakazam has SubDisable, therefore it is better than Gengar"(which it's not...) or compared Breloom to Smeargle. It's like if I compared Politoed to Tornadus because they both have Rain Dance. It doesn't work that way.
As long as Amoonguss is FAIRLY rated, I don't have a problem. The fact that you still continue to go with your "no rank" attitude...let's just say that it doesn't help your case in the slightest. I'll personally vote Amoonguss for C. Is it outclassed? Yes. Does it need some form of support? Yes. It's fine in C, but to say "no rank" every time somebody brings it up is about as ignorant as those that say "Mega Venusaur in A+" and then put in NO effort into backing their arguments up.
Oh wait, I forgot something...
In the post I quoted, you mentioned that Amoonguss requires "needless support" to function. Define "needless support" for me, because I'm quite intrigued as to what that would be. You need needless support to sweep with Luvdisc. You need needless support to sweep with Delibird. You need needless support to use ACTUALLY BAD POKEMON, not a RarelyUsed Tank that is Overused Usable and has been since Regenerator came out.
Considering the amount of dark type love this gen, I'm really depressed no one mentions honchkrow. Dark and flying are really good coverage options, and the mafia bird has a wide move pool and just enough special attack to go mixed. Granted, it's not that bulky, but neither is Bisharp (I fail to see how some people think that is bulky) does it even have an ou analysis? I personally think he could possibly fit In the b- tier pretty well
Lets get real here, Smeargle does suck. I'm going to use your quote smoothly segue my way into an argument for why Smeargle deserves D-Rank.
So Smeargle is unique in that it gets every move in the game, which is an excellent niche, barring the fact that its stats blow and force it into the role of a suicide lead, which as we know is pretty much a dead niche since Gen V. Sneargle lacks the bulk to take hits, and doesn't have the offenses to use its massive movepool to its advantage, which forces it into using its acceptable speed and running a support set, taking advantage of access to moves like Spore, Sticky Web, Shell Smash, Baton Pass, Magic Coat, and whatever the hell else floats your boat. However, almost all of Smeargle's sets get brutally shut down by Taunters unless they run the rare Magic Coat, Spore got nerfed meaning that Grass types have nothing to fear against Smeargle and setting up on a sleeping opponent isn't as reliable as it used to be, Defog and Spinners like Excadrill and Mega Blastoise make getting rid of hazards quite easy and turning the battle 5-6 with a single turn, and finally Smeargle is forced into running a lead set with Focus Sash to avoid hazards and being vaporized later on. This makes Smeargle extremely predictable and most well made teams will have at least one way of dealing with it. Moreover, Smeagle is outclassed as a lead in the presense of Deoxys S and D, both of which are faster, bulkier, and can run a variety of sets that make playing against them much more complicated. Smeargle can carry Sticky Web, but it gets ouclassed by Galvantula, who can threaten opponents with Compoundeyes Thunder, Bug Buzz, and Volt Switch, and even freaking Swadloon, who is bulky enough to take hits with Eviolite and has access to Synthesis to allow it to come in and lay down Sticky Web multiple times, and it also happens to get Magic Coat to reflect Taunts as well.
I've gone on long enough. Smeargle may have options, but a lot of those options are inferior to other things other Pokemon bring to the table. Smeargle is usable in OU, because of its movepool, but I don't see its use above D-Rank.
Also, I just talked up Swadloon's viability in OU. Feel free to take that as you see fit, in the meantime I'll be testing Eviolite Swadloon to see how far gone I am right now.
Smeargle isn't that predictable. Sure, you know it's a Sash, but it could be hazards lead, SmashPass, QuiverPass, GearPass, or even CHOICE SCARF. Also in what way is it outclassed as a Sticky Web user? It has Spore, and Baton Pass, so it can do something in OU other than hazards. Swadloon is just shit, use Shuckle if you really want a defensive Sticky Web user.
Smeargle should probably be somewhere around C-Rank. It's really, really difficult to use, but if used right, it's amazing. Definitely not D-Rank.
Smeargle should probably be somewhere around C-Rank. It's really, really difficult to use, but if used right, it's amazing. Definitely not D-Rank.
I think Volcarona could fit in B+. Both offensive and bulky sets have merit in the metagame, and are especially notable for beating slower special attacking Water-types (bar Manaphy) one-on-one. Offensive sets can get really dangerous really quickly, and can screw up certain defensive responses with either Giga Drain or Hidden Power Ground. Bulky sets put their resistances and SpD boost from Quiver Dance to much better use, and can outlast and overpower bulky threats with Roost or even occasionally make use of Flame Body to soften certain hits (mainly Fighting-types that forgo Rock coverage). The Stealth Rock weakness as well as the presence of Talonflame, Mega-Pinsir and Azumarill do not do it any favors whatsoever, but an amazing boosting move in Quiver Dance coupled with very nice STABs are hard to ignore.
Bisharp is used because it's the only viable pokemon atm to "block" Defog, making it the poster boy for HO teams along with Deoxys. Bisharp also has access to Swords Dance, which helps it with its main role(sweeper).
Unless I read the list wrong, breloom isn't on it. I think it at least deserves a mention, though talonflame weakened it a lot. It could still be viable, albeit with sash and stone edge a must.
In regards to Amoonguss:
I've used this poke quite extensively in Gen V (in lower tiers, mostly), and I think that it's a lot better than people think.
Amoonguss @ Assault Vest
- EVs -
Regenerator
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Hidden Power Ground / Fire / Ice
Foul Play
Synthesis and Spore aren't essential. I find that a tank set with Leftovers and Synthesis has too little offensive presence and sits there doing very little. With an Assault Vest, Amoonguss can invest in Defense and Special Attack, which gives it better mixed walling abilities and more power. Foul Play is excellent as always, and often does a better job of punishing setup sweepers than Clear Smog.
Amoonguss does face competition from Venusaur as a bulky Grass / Poison type, but its greater special bulk, access to Foul Play, and of course Regenerator give it enough to distinguish itself. I'd say that it's not outclassed, but different to MegaSaur.
Amoonguss requires very little support. It doesn't really care about status, being immune to almost every form of Sleep, immune to Toxic, and far too slow to care about Paralysis. Burn kinda hurts, but with Giga Drain and Regenerator, it hurts less so than for other Pokemon. Amoonguss is a great bulky pivot, and has somewhat low opportunity cost if used well - it has enough offensive presence to pose a threat, and can keep up with fast-paced pivot gameplay thanks to Regenerator.
Mega Venusaur eclipses it, in that it's ranked higher, but Amoonguss shares many of the traits that make MegaSaur good, which makes it a great choice for teams that already have a Mega.
I'd suggest B+ rank for Amoonguss.
I've used this poke quite extensively in Gen V (in lower tiers, mostly), and I think that it's a lot better than people think.
Amoonguss @ Assault Vest
- EVs -
Regenerator
Giga Drain
Sludge Bomb
Hidden Power Ground / Fire / Ice
Foul Play
Synthesis and Spore aren't essential. I find that a tank set with Leftovers and Synthesis has too little offensive presence and sits there doing very little. With an Assault Vest, Amoonguss can invest in Defense and Special Attack, which gives it better mixed walling abilities and more power. Foul Play is excellent as always, and often does a better job of punishing setup sweepers than Clear Smog.
Amoonguss does face competition from Venusaur as a bulky Grass / Poison type, but its greater special bulk, access to Foul Play, and of course Regenerator give it enough to distinguish itself. I'd say that it's not outclassed, but different to MegaSaur.
Amoonguss requires very little support. It doesn't really care about status, being immune to almost every form of Sleep, immune to Toxic, and far too slow to care about Paralysis. Burn kinda hurts, but with Giga Drain and Regenerator, it hurts less so than for other Pokemon. Amoonguss is a great bulky pivot, and has somewhat low opportunity cost if used well - it has enough offensive presence to pose a threat, and can keep up with fast-paced pivot gameplay thanks to Regenerator.
Mega Venusaur eclipses it, in that it's ranked higher, but Amoonguss shares many of the traits that make MegaSaur good, which makes it a great choice for teams that already have a Mega.
I'd suggest B+ rank for Amoonguss.
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