''general uselessness against all out offense'', this is a problem i have with your zygarde proposal. While its ability to destroy most defensive teams is neat, the fact that you flat-out admit that its useless against offensive ones is a concern, considering that the metagame consists of both and offense is more popular. When you see other mons that are known for crushing stall like kyurem black or garchomp, they are also able to do fine against offense due to their immediate power. The problem with zygarde is that it takes too long for it to become a threat and offensive teams just wont let it get a chance, specially when it has a 4x weakness to one of the most common types. I think its fine at B rank.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Can someone please tell me why chansey is higher than blissey
I guess I'll bring up Suicune again. I feel it's fine at B atm, but this is just me gauging its usefulness on an anecdotal basis, since there really is no pokemon that does the same thing as CroCune.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.
CroCune's nature is designed for late-game sweeping, so I feel this description fits Suicune to a Tee.
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche.
CroCune's nature is designed for late-game sweeping, so I feel this description fits Suicune to a Tee.
Superior bulk, actually can take a couple physical hits without too much to worry about.
Beside that, the two are incredibly similar.
"b-but knock off"
What pokemon does Chansey switch in to that commonly carry Knock Off?
And if Chansey loses it's Eviolite, then it's like Blissey really. Just a tiny tiny bit inferior bulk, so it's not a be-all-end-all.
"b-but leftovers"
Doesn't matter when you take 15% less damage on every hit you take
"b-but flamethrower/ice beam"
Yeah, if you want to drop Seismic Toss for one of them, sure. But remember, base 75 SpA isn't exactly... powerful. It does punish the mons it wants to punish, and leaves it a sitting duck against everything else.
The thing is, I mean that its useless against FULL-OUT offense. I mean a hazard lead and 5 set up sweepers type of offense.
No matter how offensively oriented the meta is, you will still see defensive pivots like rotom-w everywhere. And in those oppurtunities can zygarde just set up like crazy. Let's paint a rather common scenario on the ladder out:
Turn 1:
I lead with scizor
Opponent leads with rotom-w
Rotom-w moves first, burns scizor. (its defog support so its not TOO crippling)
Scizor u-turns out into zygarde.
Turn 2:
Zygarde sets up sub
Rotom-w uses WoW but is blocked by Sub
Turn 3:
Zygarde uses coil
Rotom-w uses hydro pump, doesn't break sub/misses
Turn 4:
Zygarde uses coil again, at +2.
Rotom-w breaks sub/doesn't break sub/misses again
Turn 5:
Zygarde sets up another sub
Opponent either
1) Tries to burn again or goes for hydro pump
since hydro pump would still probably not break the sub, I still get another turn to coil, putting me at +3
2) Realizes its useless and switches out
Now the opponent has to deal with a zygarde behind a sub at +2
And since Sylveon gets 2hko'd by eq, and hyper voice only does around 60%.
I lead with scizor
Opponent leads with rotom-w
Rotom-w moves first, burns scizor. (its defog support so its not TOO crippling)
Scizor u-turns out into zygarde.
Turn 2:
Zygarde sets up sub
Rotom-w uses WoW but is blocked by Sub
Turn 3:
Zygarde uses coil
Rotom-w uses hydro pump, doesn't break sub/misses
Turn 4:
Zygarde uses coil again, at +2.
Rotom-w breaks sub/doesn't break sub/misses again
Turn 5:
Zygarde sets up another sub
Opponent either
1) Tries to burn again or goes for hydro pump
since hydro pump would still probably not break the sub, I still get another turn to coil, putting me at +3
2) Realizes its useless and switches out
Now the opponent has to deal with a zygarde behind a sub at +2
And since Sylveon gets 2hko'd by eq, and hyper voice only does around 60%.
This may seem all convenient and stuff, but if you can provide a safe switch-in to zygarde on a rotom-w (it takes about 3 seconds to realize that rotom-w is common AF) then 8 times out of 10 you'll either get to +2 with a sub or even more!
It's not about how quick this guy sets up, or how immediately powerful he is, its about how hard it is to stop him from setting up, and people love to think that rotom-w can do that. It can't. And that's exactly why this guy is so useful.
In exchange for needing set-up turns, you have a powerful force in your hands that can't be forced out unless you have a togekiss (uncommon)
Played right, it does 6-0.
Even mostly offensive teams should be carrying some type of cleric/utility pokemon, and that's usually rotom-w.
While it is tough to set up with sufficient offensive pressure, teams that can keep up that type of pressure the ENTIRE game without switching into something zygarde can exploit are never really found.
To summarize the above wall of text:
Zygarde sorta relies on rotom-w to do much significant, but rotom-w are common and its easy to lure them in or not seem threatening at first with a nice sub-coil set. Rotom-w cannot beat it and by the time the opponent realizes that, they're already in a bit of trouble.
Thanks I was a bit confused.
look, man, a burned scizor is a big loss for you. i really don't know a lot about zygarde, but letting your scizor get burned is a really, really crappy move that shouldn't even be considered just for the sake of giving zygarde a free switch-in, when revenge killing it between two pokemon isn't all that difficult.
honestly, i think zygarde is fine where it is. it has its niche, but it isn't as great as you're making it out to be.
Srn9130
honestly, i think zygarde is fine where it is. it has its niche, but it isn't as great as you're making it out to be.
Srn9130
Srn9130 Your argument would be more convicing if you didnt focused completely and solely on the usage of rotom-w and the stupidity of players. Coil is zygarde's most common and arguably best set and a little bit of common sense reveals that rotom-w can do nothing to it. In your replays you either destroyed stall teams (a case of team matchup, unless they have a fairy theres nothing they can do to stop zygarde) or a moron let you setup to your heart's content (the forretress player). Zygarde has a decent niche, but it has a lot of problems with several common threats and fares poorly in general against most offensive teams. Its actually very comparable to regular kyurem, and that one is a B rank as well.
This was discussed over the course of three whole pages or so, which was not too many. Maybe 10 0r 20 range. It was discussed in length there.
It takes physical hits better and the only ding against it is it has to leave in the face of knock off switch-ins. Even then the switch-ins should get statused unless you desperately needed to heal your own status.
I think we need to warn everyone by adding E-Rank for Donphan.
-Mega Blastoise, Starmie, Excadrill, and Defoggers are all better hazard removers. M-Blastoise tanks hits better and can choose to run offensive or support, and Ghosts can't safely switch because of ML Dark Pulse. Starmie can run LO Analytic or Leftovers Recover for a spinner, is fast, and has BoltBeam + Hydro Pump coverage. Excadrill has Mold Breaker Earthquake and Sand Rush for Rotom-W, who outspeeds and can burn Donphan or destroy it with Hydro Pump. It can also sweep with Swords Dance. Defog also gives it huge competition with Lati@s's synergy with Talonflame, Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch and regaining momentum with U-turn, and those are only two of the viable Defoggers in OU.
-4MSS (Needs Ice Shard, Stealth Rock, Roar, Rock coverage, Seed Bomb, Rapid Spin, and Knock Off to do something in OU. Depending on which moves you give up, it's always walled by something)
-KYUREM-B
-Vulnerable to every hazard
-Hippowdon is bulkier and has Sand Stream
-Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Excadrill, and Mamoswine outclass it as a tank
-The main offense that distinguishes it from random mons like Unown: It is above the OU cutoff.
This is what Donphan exactly is. And here are all of the reasons why:
-Mega Blastoise, Starmie, Excadrill, and Defoggers are all better hazard removers. M-Blastoise tanks hits better and can choose to run offensive or support, and Ghosts can't safely switch because of ML Dark Pulse. Starmie can run LO Analytic or Leftovers Recover for a spinner, is fast, and has BoltBeam + Hydro Pump coverage. Excadrill has Mold Breaker Earthquake and Sand Rush for Rotom-W, who outspeeds and can burn Donphan or destroy it with Hydro Pump. It can also sweep with Swords Dance. Defog also gives it huge competition with Lati@s's synergy with Talonflame, Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch and regaining momentum with U-turn, and those are only two of the viable Defoggers in OU.
-4MSS (Needs Ice Shard, Stealth Rock, Roar, Rock coverage, Seed Bomb, Rapid Spin, and Knock Off to do something in OU. Depending on which moves you give up, it's always walled by something)
-KYUREM-B
-Vulnerable to every hazard
-Hippowdon is bulkier and has Sand Stream
-Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon, Excadrill, and Mamoswine outclass it as a tank
-The main offense that distinguishes it from random mons like Unown: It is above the OU cutoff.
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It's a defogger, it doesn't mind the burn as much as a normal scizor would. I would much rather have scizor burned and have zygarde in against a rotom-w safely, because that usually means I get to +2 with a sub.
I wanted to focus on rotom-w because that's the most common thing to set up on, and it lures+beats it the most effectively. Certainly that's not the only thing it can reliably set up on. This includes
Ferrothorn
Tentacruel
Venusaur
Chansey (and blissey)
Gastrodon (w/out ice beam)
Vaporeon (w/out ice beam)
Slowbro (w/out ice beam)
It's a rather narrow list, but the list is much MUCH Longer when you take into account what it can handle after a sub or after a single coil, which isn't that hard to do when you can switch into stuff like heatran or aegislash and threaten them out.
I also don't think "common sense" reveals that rotom-w can do nothing to zygarde. Not a lot of people know about zygarde, and when you have a powerful move like hydro pump that you hit neutrally, it's natural to think you'd atleast be doing over 25% The fact that sub-coil zygarde can set up on rotom-w isn't even mentioned in the analysis; it's far from common sense if you ask me.
And how in the world is it comparable to regular kyurem? They have different typings, hit different ends of the spectrum (kyurem hits specially and zygarde hits physically), Kyurem is rocks weak and zygarde isn't, kyurem can't set up and zygarde can, and kyurem can't do that much to rotom-w unless its running dragon pulse (most run ice beam+earth power)) and zygarde sets up all over it!
How did you compare those two? Is there something I'm missing?
you fail to realize how uncommon these things are.
zygarde only has 100 atk in the first place.
skarmory can phaze you out, how do even use it as an example of zygarde, and if you use dragon tail you lose lots of power and rely on eq for damage.
your replays are facing people who don't know how to stop set up sweepers ( forretress setting up hazards)
95 spd isn't enough to outspeed major threats such as greninja and genesect.
if you use 252 HP and 252 SpD, you lose lots of power. and your greninja example for extremespeed is using 252+ atck.
and if your scizor is burned, it's basically 6-5+defog fodder and weak priority.
And rotom-w isn't as common as you think.
zygarde only has 100 atk in the first place.
skarmory can phaze you out, how do even use it as an example of zygarde, and if you use dragon tail you lose lots of power and rely on eq for damage.
your replays are facing people who don't know how to stop set up sweepers ( forretress setting up hazards)
95 spd isn't enough to outspeed major threats such as greninja and genesect.
if you use 252 HP and 252 SpD, you lose lots of power. and your greninja example for extremespeed is using 252+ atck.
and if your scizor is burned, it's basically 6-5+defog fodder and weak priority.
And rotom-w isn't as common as you think.
Kyurem is comparable because they both have the niche of being able to walk all over most stall teams but have trouble against offense, its a decent niche but it doesnt change the fact that it fares poorly against most of the metagame. That list you made just emphasizes that even more.
Of course it still minds the burn, and it's kind of crazy if you don't think so. Scizor is crippled by a burn so much, it doesn't matter if it's a supporter with Defog. Defog Scizor is still a normal Scizor, and there's no way it's worth saccing your Scizor's entire offensive capabilities to get Zygarde in for free. It's just a silly strategy if your opponent has any way to deal with Rotom-W at all. There are a thousand better Rotom-W switch-ins, Megazard X among them. At least pick something that doesn't lure a WoW, and lures an attack (Volt Switch preferrably) instead.
If SubCoil is its best set (which it is), then you sure as hell are not luring Rotom-W. Also, even if it was a set like DD, how can Rotom-W expect to take boosted Dragon-type attacks? That's unrealistic for a Rotom-W player. I don't think Zygarde is a good Rotom-W lure, because no competent player is going to BRING IN Rotom-W to get set up on. That would be plain stupid.
Yeah it's common sense, for anyone who knows how to play the game. Sure, the average crappy ladder player may fall for it, but any player with skill won't. These crappy players have no bearing on a Pokemon's ranking in this list.
It's compared to normal Kyurem in the regard that it excels against stall, but has trouble against more offensive teams. Of course there's the obvious differences, but that's the core point. Also, Rotom-W can't do shit to Kyurem, either. Kyurem can stall it out. Look at this:
200+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 73-87 (24 - 28.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's not exactly 'can't do shit' when Rotom-W can do utterly nothing to it at all (thanks to Pressure its Hydro Pumps are gone after four uses, too, which is two Substitutes). Kyurem takes Rotom-W as Sub fodder. And since Kyurem can heal up and actually deal significant damage without boosting, it actually poses a decent threat to offensive teams. I'm not saying Zygarde is shit, but you're way overhyping it.
This isn't a proper judgment, IMO. First of all, Donphan is physically bulky. Like, very much so. You can't underestimate that quality. Also, it provides two-fold utility in SR + spin. Donphan isn't E Rank shit, it's a perfectly usable Pokemon that receives way too much hate. Kyurem-B isn't really /that/ common, and Donphan resists SR, so all it needs is one turn of Leftovers to get back Sturdy. 4MSS is hardly a reason to call a Pokemon crap, either. The standard set is SR / Spin / Ice Shard / EQ. The other moves aren't as good, in general, as these. Oh, and Donphan IS getting an OU analysis. Donphan is unique as a physically bulky spinner; it is unrivaled in that category. It's not a great Pokemon, but it's not trash as you're saying.
This guy really does never get enough love. Tbt, one thing that is so great about Donphan in my eyes is that he has a large range of moves to use. When you fight one, he may be the standard set, but what if its packing Seed Bomb and that Rotom-W switch ya sent in just took a nice little hit? Think that K-B will shrug off that Ice Shard? Bam, Play Rough. He truthfully deserves C rank as he is outclassed by MegaToise as a bulky spinner but does his job admirably non the less.
This a thousand times. I used to be an avid hater of donphan. But after seeing him used and trying him out, I'm surprisingly more of a fan than excadrill. Access to coverage moves like play rough is nice, and the fact that donphan isn't weak to some of the most common attacking types in the game is a plus. Seed bomb on donphan is generally useless tho, since exca has mold breaker eq against rotoms. I think Donphans fine where it is, and if you want a bulky spinner that's not weak to some really common attacking types donphan might be your best bet.
I think the main difference here between zygarde and kyurem is that kyurem can be stalled and beat by pokemon with just ridiculous amounts of sp. def, like chansey (or in kyurem's case) sylveon, but zygarde can keep setting up and becoming more and more of a threat.
I wouldn't say I'm "overhyping" it because zygarde's success strictly relies on the presence of a defensive rotom-w and/or ferrothorn. If I don't see one, zygarde is basically just a strong check to aegislash and a couple other things, but when I do, it has the potential to do great damage. Zygarde isn't really a top-tier poke, but it performs well when a rotom-w is present. I hope it doesn't look like I'm overhyping it, because I'm certainly not trying to. Which is all the more reason I'm suggesting it moves up to B+, not A- or A.
About rotom-w:
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 242-285 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You survive, and can get a burn off, but both pokemon will be basically crippled for the rest of the game. This is on the switch-in too, so with regard to expecting a dd zygarde, you can count on rotom-w somewhat.
I just think that a pokemon that can take advantage of rotom-w to great effect deserves a rank higher than B, but lower than A, because by no means does he perform as well as titans like garchomp or manaphy, but from my personal experience, he can put in as much work as a ferrothorn can in this gen. That said, now that some pretty good pokemon like volcarona, mega medi, sylveon, hippowdon, and kyurem are in B, I'm not as concerned with zygarde being there.
Kyurem-B isn't taking a Play Rough. Like, ever.
216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan: 446-528 (116.1 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zygarde's meager 100 base attack will be mitigated by the multiple boosts you try to receive, you're not doing much with just one boost
Zygarde's dragon tail goes before skarmory's whirlwind, so skarmory gets phazed first. Of course, skarmory can just keep coming back in to eat dragon tails, which is when you reallly have to predict the roost and eq or you won't get anywhere.
95 speed is enough to outspeed the things you need to, like rotom-w or lando-t. You're setting up on walls and you should have a sub up for more offensive pokemon, like the ones you listed. Again, he isn't sweeping with just one boost.
If I use any spread other than max hp/max sp. def, rotom-w's hydro pumps can break through my subs, and that's one of the only reasons to ever use this guy in the first place.
While I admit the replays aren't the most spectacular, it's meant to show zygarde's prowess against defensively oriented teams anyway.
Scizor's main use in the team is as a pivot, not a hard hitter. As long as he can u-turn, I don't care too much if he's paralyzed, burned, whatever.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe as of december (back when I used him) rotom-w was the most used pokemon in the OU tier, with a large majority of them being physically defensive to take on mega pinsir, talonflame, and the like. He is quite common.
Also, if great pokemon like volcarona, hippowdon, sylveon, and kyurem are in the B rank then I think zygarde should be among these guys too, so yeah zygarde for staying B
I really can't agree with Yzard being S rank. I love Charizard, and while Yzard is a great self-sufficient wallbreaker and general nuker, it's not on the same level as Aegislash, Pinsir, or the current round of suspects. If someone would like to elaborate (I haven't seen any real discussion on Yzard being S) I'm all ears though.
i am not typing from a computer, so this'll be short. basically, barely anything can switch into; it's the best hole puncher in the tier. it has enormous sun-boosted fire blasts, big speed, a coverage movepool that goes on for eons, solid special bulk, roost...megazard y is the hardest-hitting special attacker in ou, and has a number of traits that make it ridiculous to deal with. megazard y was moved based on the views of the ou mods and various skilled players. it was certainly not a decision made lightly; megazard y is literal god.
I know he's amazing, his Fire Blasts hit like a nuclear warhead and I use one on my cartridge team. I figured Xzard would make S-tier for obvious reasons, but I wasn't expecting to see Yzard go past +A without discussion. That's all I was looking for, people go ON and ON about SR weakness, but it's not been much of a problem for me.
The Donphan hate is honestly tacky as fuck now. It's so overdone, just let it be and rag on shitty ladder players who use it terribly.
Donphan isn't good, but it definitely doesn't deserve the massive amount of hate it gets. People also put too much emphasis on the weak-as-fuck Ice Shard, which is only really worth using if you're using the pro Assault Vest set that I shamelessly stole from Lee. I made a team with it, and while it wasn't an all-star by any means, it did its job. That set, if anyone wants to try it, is:
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 136 Def / 40 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard / Seed Bomb / Play Rough / whatever the fuck you want tbh, Donphan has a lot of different coverage moves
I don't remember exactly what the EVs do, but I believe they allow Donphan to beat Gengar and pull off the spin. The Knock Off buff was actually huge for Donphan, as it gives it a way of taking on Ghost-types that would otherwise be able to spinblock it. This particular set is also a good check for Aegislash.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 153-180 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Obviously you won't want to switch in over and over again, but considering that Aegislash normally beats Donphan one-on-one:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 241-285 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's pretty chill. If I wanted to make sure I could spinblock a Donphan, I'd stay in on it and eat up one Earthquake, but with this set, you're going to lose unless Donphan has already switched in a couple of times before.
Still, I'd probably throw Donphan in D-rank. Lots of competition this generation with both Rapid Spin users and Defog users lurking around every corner. Competition from Gliscor and Landog for a teamslot because although they don't Spin, running them together is terrible defensive synergy.
Also,
Donphan isn't good, but it definitely doesn't deserve the massive amount of hate it gets. People also put too much emphasis on the weak-as-fuck Ice Shard, which is only really worth using if you're using the pro Assault Vest set that I shamelessly stole from Lee. I made a team with it, and while it wasn't an all-star by any means, it did its job. That set, if anyone wants to try it, is:
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Atk / 136 Def / 40 SpD
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard / Seed Bomb / Play Rough / whatever the fuck you want tbh, Donphan has a lot of different coverage moves
I don't remember exactly what the EVs do, but I believe they allow Donphan to beat Gengar and pull off the spin. The Knock Off buff was actually huge for Donphan, as it gives it a way of taking on Ghost-types that would otherwise be able to spinblock it. This particular set is also a good check for Aegislash.
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 153-180 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Obviously you won't want to switch in over and over again, but considering that Aegislash normally beats Donphan one-on-one:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 241-285 (62.7 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
80 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 192-228 (59.2 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's pretty chill. If I wanted to make sure I could spinblock a Donphan, I'd stay in on it and eat up one Earthquake, but with this set, you're going to lose unless Donphan has already switched in a couple of times before.
Still, I'd probably throw Donphan in D-rank. Lots of competition this generation with both Rapid Spin users and Defog users lurking around every corner. Competition from Gliscor and Landog for a teamslot because although they don't Spin, running them together is terrible defensive synergy.
Also,
216+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 284-336 (73.9 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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