May I ask why Shaymin isn't getting an analysis? It seems pretty viable to me and is a base 100 stat everything so that means it's pretty threatening regardless of typing. Donphan isn't getting one either and it got ranked.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
- Start date
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blitzlefan
shake it off!
I think you're wrong. A lot of Pokemon haven't gotten an analysis yet (these things take a lot of time), but that doesn't mean that they're not getting an analysis at all. Chances are, Shaymin will get an analysis this generation - but seeing as there are tons of more relevant threats to write up as of the moment, Shaymin hasn't been reserved yet. So calm down lol.
I thought the idea was that anything not yet approved for an analysis would not be ranked. I can't find where I read that though, so I guess I might be wrong on that point (we've been using it for the whole thread though).
Tornadus-T, I'm pretty sure Donphan only got ranked to get the terrible discussion on it to go away.
Nominating Heatran for S ranking.
I think this is a perfect representation of the way the metagame is shifting- you literally had to run a Fighting type not weak to Fire to beat this thing on the ladder reliably. It forces out Genesect, MegaZard Y, MegaZard X lacking EQ (which really isn't uncommon), Talonflame, Bisharp lacking Low Kick (which is common), Scizor, Ferrothorn, Volcarona, Mega Gard, Skarmory, and Scolipede, while threats such as Mega Luke, Aegislash, Pinsir, Excadrill, Mawile, Mamoswine, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross have to be careful switching in because they don't want to get hit by Lava Plume. I don't know if you couldn't tell, but that's a lot of stuff Heatran can help deal with. Special Waters have time breaking max SpD too, with the most common water in Rotom-W not being able to 2hko without significant investment or specs. 130 base SpA is respectable, and no one wants to take a Flash Fire Lava Plume off of that that doesn't resist it.
Heatran also has amazing tanking capabilities with 91/106/106 defenses, and a typing that leaves him weak only to Water, Fighting, and Ground. Albeit popular types, he also has an immunity to fire with Flash Fire, resistances to normal, flying, psychic, and dragon, with 4x resistance to Fairy, Grass, Ice, Bug, and Steel. These key resistances allow him to protect almost all types, with the exclusion of pokemon of similar typing to him. The only thing Heatran could want more of is speed, but generally everything it's trying to wall is going to be extremely fast in the first place.
Consideration should probably be brought up again after the metagame shifts if Lucarionite and/or Genesect are banned.
I think this is a perfect representation of the way the metagame is shifting- you literally had to run a Fighting type not weak to Fire to beat this thing on the ladder reliably. It forces out Genesect, MegaZard Y, MegaZard X lacking EQ (which really isn't uncommon), Talonflame, Bisharp lacking Low Kick (which is common), Scizor, Ferrothorn, Volcarona, Mega Gard, Skarmory, and Scolipede, while threats such as Mega Luke, Aegislash, Pinsir, Excadrill, Mawile, Mamoswine, Mega Medicham, and Mega Heracross have to be careful switching in because they don't want to get hit by Lava Plume. I don't know if you couldn't tell, but that's a lot of stuff Heatran can help deal with. Special Waters have time breaking max SpD too, with the most common water in Rotom-W not being able to 2hko without significant investment or specs. 130 base SpA is respectable, and no one wants to take a Flash Fire Lava Plume off of that that doesn't resist it.
Heatran also has amazing tanking capabilities with 91/106/106 defenses, and a typing that leaves him weak only to Water, Fighting, and Ground. Albeit popular types, he also has an immunity to fire with Flash Fire, resistances to normal, flying, psychic, and dragon, with 4x resistance to Fairy, Grass, Ice, Bug, and Steel. These key resistances allow him to protect almost all types, with the exclusion of pokemon of similar typing to him. The only thing Heatran could want more of is speed, but generally everything it's trying to wall is going to be extremely fast in the first place.
Consideration should probably be brought up again after the metagame shifts if Lucarionite and/or Genesect are banned.
So there are a fair amount of things that seem off to me but the most blatant issue is Hippowdon in B. I honestly think Hippowdon should fly straight to A+. It can utilize two very effective sets: physically defensive and specially defensive. Specially defensive hippowdon can wall almost anything bar certain set up sweepers and water types. It can also take all sorts of physical hits as well. Physically defensive hippowdon is disgustingly bulky and really walls every physical attacker barring water/grass types. Hippowdon sees a lot of high level play because it is such a solid supporter. Honestly he might be one of the best pokemon in OU right now...
Hippowdon for A+
Hippowdon for A+
Oddly enough, I see it so rarely.
I don't mean that in an obnoxious manner. I honestly don't see him often but when I do I know I've ran into a good player, or at the very least, something that will take a while to take out.
However I wouldn't say A+ but A because while it has a powerful earthquake, its not very offensively threatening, usually running one specialized coverage move, and also, it is very susceptible to hazards, especially seeing as rest is never run on it.
Yeah...Heatran is the second biggest anti-meta Pokemon in the game behind Rotom-W. Fire/Steel has become such a good defensive typing this gen and the ground weakness is hardly a liabilty with Flying and Levitate being so prevalent.
I would actually second Heatran being S-tier if it wasn't for MLucario being very popular.
Actually, it has this instant recovery move called Slack Off...
I'm actually agreeing on moving Hippo up a bit. Countering Talonflame, Mega-CharX, most physical Dragons and even Aegislash somewhat easily if properly EV'd give it a lot of opportunities to come in and set up SR, shuffle for hazard damage with Whirlwind or just hit fairly hard for a defensive mon with EQ. As mentioned, it's hard to wear down due access to Slack Off, so no worries there. Only real problem is that due move set constraints, it often is only using EQ, which might cause problems when facing mons that can Taunt it and are immune to EQ and that it's slow. Other then that, though, it's a solid mon that should at least be A tier.
I can second the moving of Hippowdon to the A tier once more (A+ might be high, but A- at the least if Skarmory gets to be there).
Being able to wall the majority of the OU tier in many shapes and or forms is incredible. For example:
(NOTE! Not all Calculations are what would be used at a given time! They are just here to show the bulk of Hippowdon possess)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 137-162 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 153-181 (36.4 - 43%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 190-224 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 212-250 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I have chosen these two Pokémon due to their ridiculous Attack stats + abilities (and junk). With a bulk that is better than Skarmory, and the option of taking Special Attacks as well with 108 HP / 72 Sp Def, meaning he is one of, if not the most reliable mixed walls in the game (who just happens to specialize in taking Physical hits).
Is it all peaches for the Hippo? Hell no, but it usually isn't for any Pokémon as he gets a weakness to Ice and Water attacks along with the silly Grass types. Water is easily spammable, and Ice being part of the infamous BoltBeam coverage, he is able to do a hell of a lot. while Grass just gets to hit him. What do these three have in common? You are probably only gonna see these in the form of special attacks, which prey upon Hippowdon's lesser stat. Yet, even with those all jumping around, when you need a damn good wall, one that can take a hit, set up rocks, and then heal off what ever he just took, Hippowdon is the man.
With no real competition outside of Skarmory, I find it ridiculous that he is below the metal bird when looking at them, you can't really place one above the other. Skarm has the steel typing, yet is susceptible to even neutral special attacks while Hippowdon is not
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 172-204 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 177-208 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Again, with something that rivals an already A- rank pokemon and arguably can do it just as well if not better is ridiculous. A- rank at minimum if not A altogether.
Heatran is not S rank for the same reasons, or similar ones, that Rotom-W is not; they both lack reliable recovery.
Heatran gets ridiculous stats to abuse with a great typing.....yet cant heal himself. Rotom-W gets a great typing with SOME recovery (pain split is both negative and positive as you can never rely on it consistently). The two can be worn down more so than one would like for something that comes in and does so much. If Heatran has some cool recovery move, then it be all good but it doesn't so....
Heatran is a great great pokemon, offering support in rocks, toxic, and phazing, while getting that handy burn chance with lava plume, and giving thousands of key resistances that any team loves. His only real flaws are that he's easy to lure, he has low speed, and he's pretty easy to wear down. He's still effective without wish support, but if this guy had a reliable recovery he would be S rank easily, if not ubers. Those certain flaws, however, I believe keep him from being S. No recovery, easily lured by anything from Earthquake latios and mega venusaur to sub punch mawile (all of which are perfectly viable otherwise) and common weaknesses prevent him from being S.
Oh, and if you don't believe me on Sub-Punch mega mawile luring heatran, here's an SPL match of it in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oriserver-ou-68542
It's turn 32 if you don't feel like watching the whole thing.
About hippo, it does definitely not belong in B. He's one of the only things that can switch in on everything aegislash can do (the other one is mandibuzz/mega venusaur sorta) and threaten it right out. He can set rocks, heal, and phaze, all while being super bulky, which has been proven by calcs already shown (aka I'm lazy). He's really damn good in this meta, even though rotom-w is a pain. It's also worth noting that after this suspect test and if too many people aren't smoking Ku$h, then genesect should be banned, which means that aegislash is the only non-mega pokemon in S atm. If something can freely switch in on anything aegislash has to offer and do something back, that already puts any pokemon at A- at worst.
Oh, and if you don't believe me on Sub-Punch mega mawile luring heatran, here's an SPL match of it in action:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oriserver-ou-68542
It's turn 32 if you don't feel like watching the whole thing.
About hippo, it does definitely not belong in B. He's one of the only things that can switch in on everything aegislash can do (the other one is mandibuzz/mega venusaur sorta) and threaten it right out. He can set rocks, heal, and phaze, all while being super bulky, which has been proven by calcs already shown (aka I'm lazy). He's really damn good in this meta, even though rotom-w is a pain. It's also worth noting that after this suspect test and if too many people aren't smoking Ku$h, then genesect should be banned, which means that aegislash is the only non-mega pokemon in S atm. If something can freely switch in on anything aegislash has to offer and do something back, that already puts any pokemon at A- at worst.
What do you guys feel about
? With less rain running its day, talonflame and flying friends becoming more common he can actually wreck a lot of top tier pokemon. Depending on the set and ev spread he is capable to wall;
Physically Defensive evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def; Talonflame, Charizard X, Dragonite, Excadrill, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, and physical Genesect.
He has many options and can play as a tank, physical attacker, assault vest, or like above Physically Defensive. It is hard to outright stop him because he has superb coverage options to get pass bulky grass types and Gliscor and Lando T. His main moves alone make him threaten common defogers like Tyrantitar; which should be A+.The only pokemon I think that beat him 1v1 no matter what is Rotom W, Keldeo, Manaphy, Gyrados, Roserade, Mega CharY, and Mega Venusaur. I feel B- or C+ may be fitting.
-Rhyperior Surviving Stuff;
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 339-399 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO so close
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 422-498 (150.1 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 306-363 (76.3 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 416-492 (130 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 231-274 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 414-488 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 292-346 (72.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 314-372 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 127-153 (31.6 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 129-153 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 348-410 (117.1 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 283-334 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 656-774 (202.4 - 238.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm only using the Physical Attacker set.
Wish passers are highly needed on this one but if you keep him out of grass and water types and strong special sweepers, your all good.
Physically Defensive evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def; Talonflame, Charizard X, Dragonite, Excadrill, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, and physical Genesect.
He has many options and can play as a tank, physical attacker, assault vest, or like above Physically Defensive. It is hard to outright stop him because he has superb coverage options to get pass bulky grass types and Gliscor and Lando T. His main moves alone make him threaten common defogers like Tyrantitar; which should be A+.The only pokemon I think that beat him 1v1 no matter what is Rotom W, Keldeo, Manaphy, Gyrados, Roserade, Mega CharY, and Mega Venusaur. I feel B- or C+ may be fitting.
-Rhyperior Surviving Stuff;
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 339-399 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO so close
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 422-498 (150.1 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 306-363 (76.3 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 416-492 (130 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 231-274 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 414-488 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 292-346 (72.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 314-372 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 127-153 (31.6 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 129-153 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 348-410 (117.1 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 283-334 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 656-774 (202.4 - 238.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm only using the Physical Attacker set.
Wish passers are highly needed on this one but if you keep him out of grass and water types and strong special sweepers, your all good.
Wait huh?What do you guys feel about? With less rain running its day, talonflame and flying friends becoming more common he can actually wreck a lot of top tier pokemon. Depending on the set and ev spread he is capable to wall;
Physically Defensive evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def; Talonflame, Charizard X, Dragonite, Excadrill, Aegislash, Mega Pinsir, and physical Genesect.
He has many options and can play as a tank, physical attacker, assault vest, or like above Physically Defensive. It is hard to outright stop him because he has superb coverage options to get pass bulky grass types and Gliscor and Lando T. His main moves alone make him threaten common defogers like Tyrantitar; which should be A+.The only pokemon I think that beat him 1v1 no matter what is Rotom W, Keldeo, Manaphy, Gyrados, Roserade, Mega CharY, and Mega Venusaur. I feel B- or C+ may be fitting.
-Rhyperior Surviving Stuff;
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 339-399 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO so close
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 422-498 (150.1 - 177.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 120 HP / 124 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 306-363 (76.3 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 416-492 (130 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 231-274 (57.6 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 414-488 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 292-346 (72.8 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Mawile: 314-372 (103.2 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 127-153 (31.6 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 384-452 (111.6 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 129-153 (32.1 - 38.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 348-410 (117.1 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-+2 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 120 HP / 12 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 283-334 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-252+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 656-774 (202.4 - 238.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'm only using the Physical Attacker set.
Wish passers are highly needed on this one but if you keep him out of grass and water types and strong special sweepers, your all good.
*goes to check if Rhyperior got an OU analysis*
*sees one*
OH MY GOD!
*starts bringing up my Rhyperior gear*
As you say, you only show the physical attacker set. What else could he run? A Physical Tank set yes? Oh but he can run something that makes many look in awe......Assault Vest.
You can find a lot of our calcs in the AV thread itself, but this is the set in question:
Assault Sergeant
Item: Assault Vest
252 HP / 108 Atk / 148 SDef
Adamant Nature (+ Atk -SAtk) or Careful Nature (+Sp Def, - Sp Atk)
Solid Rock
Avalanche
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Fire Punch
EVs tailor fit to make a +1 Ice Beam from Genesect
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior: 180-213 (41.4 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
And destroy a multitude of stuff:
108+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 340-404 (96 - 114.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
108+ Atk Rhyperior Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 344-408 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
108+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 468-552 (111.4 - 131.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
108+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 288-340 (89.1 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
108+ Atk Rhyperior Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 368-434 (95.8 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
Yes he is beautiful. Then if you add Sand in......
252 SpA Latios Surf vs. 252 HP / 148 SpD Assault Vest Solid Rock Rhyperior in Sand: 171-204 (39.4 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If anything, he is held back by no recovery and being slow. Normally being slow on such a beast isn't bad, but more likely than not, he will be burned, making him only good to be hit. C ranking is in my mind, mabey C+ if others see him there too.
Those advantages are enough for teams to consider Zygarde since it means they don't have to drag along a hazard remover. Also, it doesn't matter too much if Zygarde is relegated to only a few small niches as long as it does them well: it's like saying Skamory's viability is hurt by its inability to do something else (like ex: Swords Dance) better than other threats when it already does its walling niche very well.
So you say Zygarde's coverage moves suck, but between Ground and Dragon STAB it doesn't miss out on a lot, especially the Ground STAB since it means you won't be Outraging every bulky thing in sight, or being forced to use Weakness Policy to boost that weak-ass Dragon Claw (Zygarde's EQ > Dragonite's Dragon Claw). DD Nite only has the elemental punches over Zygarde, and Zygarde doesn't have any more trouble with the likes of Steels and Togekiss than Dragonite does with the moves it has. Assuming both Dragons run Dragon STAB, Earthquake, and Extreme Speed, Zygarde is technically the one with the movepool advantage. The only threat Zygarde misses out on that Dragonite can hit is Skarmory, but even Dragonite won't be beating a healthy Skarm either since it needs Skarm down at <50% if it wants to sweep, not a far cry from Zygarde sweeping requirements.
Mega Charizard X has already set such a high standard for DD Dragon sweeping that pretty much every other Dragon-type DDer looks bad when compared to it (yes even Dragonite). DD Salamence is outclassed because it faces much of the same problems Dragonite does with minimal benefits (outspeeding Scarf Genesect is pretty much the only advantage I can think of, otherwise Dnite has ESpeed), but Zygarde is a different story entirely.
Using a non-boosting attacking Zygarde is a bad idea, but Zygarde does know Glare and Dragon Tail alongside its great bulk, so a bulky Zygarde still isn't outclassed.
I'm not sure how much experience you've had with Zygarde, but my feedback on it is nothing but positive.
It may not have an ability it can use, but as long as it doesn't hinder its role then it isn't really a disadvantage: Deoxys-S barely has any use for its ability but that didn't stop it from doing its job(s) so well. Other Dragons may have awesome abilities, but this doesn't really hurt Zygarde's ranking so much as push up theirs; they can have their A/A+ rankings, but Zygarde still has a good shot for B.
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Don't get me wrong, when I was talking about rest I was referring to rest to deal with status.
Slack off is amazing, and I also think hippo should be A rank.
I'm just saying the things that hold it back from A plus is its inability to run more than one attacking move without sacrificing utility and to susceptibility to status. Yeah it's practically paralysis immune (stun spore exists not at all in OU) but burn ruins that one move you have and sleep slows you down and toxic racks up eventually.
Thundurus-I for me is S-Rank
One of my favourite offensive mons at XY OU (probably top 5).
Strong typing, Speed and SpA, great ability I found Thundurus-I a great mon against every playstyle, Taunt + Nasty Plot is sick against stall and balance teams, can run even a Bulk Up set with Knock Off + Wild Charge + Fly with Defiant (CTC's set).
Rest of sets such T-wave does very well against every offensive team, not necessary Nasty Plot already get a lot of HKO and 2HKO, T-wave is great against offensive teams with faster things to criple them and getting a 25% to chance to get para on this turn, Taunt helps as well and stop totally Deoxys team leads with Spikes / Stealth Rock.
Not much to say, is just a top mon which deserves S-rank in my opinion.
One of my favourite offensive mons at XY OU (probably top 5).
Strong typing, Speed and SpA, great ability I found Thundurus-I a great mon against every playstyle, Taunt + Nasty Plot is sick against stall and balance teams, can run even a Bulk Up set with Knock Off + Wild Charge + Fly with Defiant (CTC's set).
Rest of sets such T-wave does very well against every offensive team, not necessary Nasty Plot already get a lot of HKO and 2HKO, T-wave is great against offensive teams with faster things to criple them and getting a 25% to chance to get para on this turn, Taunt helps as well and stop totally Deoxys team leads with Spikes / Stealth Rock.
Not much to say, is just a top mon which deserves S-rank in my opinion.
Easily OHKO'd by many pokemon after SR damage. No calcs and "opinion" do not determine how well off a 'mon is, sorry.
Damn it can be ohkoed after sr. I guess we shouldn't have sect, like,Zards, or pinsir, or anything in s rank because they can be ohkoed. .sarc
But I support thundurus for s rank. It's sheer versatility makes it such a threat to all playstyles (stall doesn't fare horribly usually). The twave 3 atk set is simply a nightmare for offensive teams, as it has power and coverage while also crippling a mon on the other team nearly all the time . Nasty plot is really cool two as it is less expected, and beyond that it has other options such as ebelt, hp flying (aka fuck venu), substitute, which is nu underrated and awesome move on thundy, taunt, and even a niche but very string defiant set. It almost always leaves an impact on the battle and is so easy to put on a team due it it's ability to check everything.
Thundy fir S Rank
Edit : A rank is way to big, so I have a few suggestions, mostly shit moving down to A plus
Mamoswine A to A- : hard to get into fite, walled by shit, everything hits it hard
Excadrill A to A- : excadrill just doesn't have time to really get much done, nothing gives it a free turn really
Greninja A to A-: just seems a little high to me, so frail
Conkelldurr A to A- very prepared for, bait for most s rank megas and fairies, just not as effective as it was
Gyardos (mega) A to A-: no great reasoning, just seems a little high, I never have too much trouble with it
Dnite, gengar, and mawile I could see moving down a bit too but idk I can see why they should all stay too.
But I support thundurus for s rank. It's sheer versatility makes it such a threat to all playstyles (stall doesn't fare horribly usually). The twave 3 atk set is simply a nightmare for offensive teams, as it has power and coverage while also crippling a mon on the other team nearly all the time . Nasty plot is really cool two as it is less expected, and beyond that it has other options such as ebelt, hp flying (aka fuck venu), substitute, which is nu underrated and awesome move on thundy, taunt, and even a niche but very string defiant set. It almost always leaves an impact on the battle and is so easy to put on a team due it it's ability to check everything.
Thundy fir S Rank
Edit : A rank is way to big, so I have a few suggestions, mostly shit moving down to A plus
Mamoswine A to A- : hard to get into fite, walled by shit, everything hits it hard
Excadrill A to A- : excadrill just doesn't have time to really get much done, nothing gives it a free turn really
Greninja A to A-: just seems a little high to me, so frail
Conkelldurr A to A- very prepared for, bait for most s rank megas and fairies, just not as effective as it was
Gyardos (mega) A to A-: no great reasoning, just seems a little high, I never have too much trouble with it
Dnite, gengar, and mawile I could see moving down a bit too but idk I can see why they should all stay too.
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Thoughts:
Thirding Thundy I for s rank. It's just too versatile to be anything below that. It's an offensive powerhouse that can hit from both ends of the spectrum. It can blow past most pokemon people run to 'check' it with the appropriate move (superpower for Ttar, mamo, exca, knock off for latis, flying stab for venu...) - oftentimes the op will have to sac a mon before being able to determine what coverage it runs.
Not to mention that it provides unparalleled team support through prankster twave (opening pathways for teammate to sweep / stopping setup sweepers in their tracks however much they might have boosted - it takes skill to a degree to set up a pokemon even to +1 and being able to undo that effort with priority paralysis is good af).
Oh and Thundy can't be paralysed
Finally, Thundy is a potent setup sweeper himself, being able to attain +2 at a moment's notice and possessing blazing base 111 speed + boltbeam coverage. 4th move can be twave / taunt which allows it to either prevent opposing setup or threaten stall immensely. Physical defiant sets that have become more common lately are no less threatening - bulk up sets will almost always catch the op off guard and is backed by a solid attack stat and good coverage options. An anti-hazard removal set can also be run on offensive teams - no common defogger/spinner is safe against kn + superpower + electric coverage with max attack LO. Remember the fourth moveslot in this set is still up for grabs.
Sub is great too, to scout moves, rack up LO recoil, stall outrage...
Crazily good mon in the current meta. Really needs to be s-rank so people are at least aware how devastating this thing can be.
Tesung 's other suggestions:
Exca needs to be A at least as it has a niche as the best spinner in ou by miles, this alone means it provides unrivaled team support. It's p diverse too, being able to act as a sand rush sweeper, or run scarf (fucking underrated) which is nearly unstoppable at spinning against any offensive team and can quickly destroy momentum that they take pains to build all early game. Mold breaker EQ is just awesome too and can be used to sweep late game (looking at scarf again).
A seems just right for Gren too, if only because of its extensive and often unpredictable (the 3rd and 4th move) coverage coupled with perm stab in protean.
Everything else I agree with, although he might not have explained his rationale fully I can see where he's coming from and some of those opinions would probably spark and make for good discussion here.
Thirding Thundy I for s rank. It's just too versatile to be anything below that. It's an offensive powerhouse that can hit from both ends of the spectrum. It can blow past most pokemon people run to 'check' it with the appropriate move (superpower for Ttar, mamo, exca, knock off for latis, flying stab for venu...) - oftentimes the op will have to sac a mon before being able to determine what coverage it runs.
Not to mention that it provides unparalleled team support through prankster twave (opening pathways for teammate to sweep / stopping setup sweepers in their tracks however much they might have boosted - it takes skill to a degree to set up a pokemon even to +1 and being able to undo that effort with priority paralysis is good af).
Oh and Thundy can't be paralysed
Finally, Thundy is a potent setup sweeper himself, being able to attain +2 at a moment's notice and possessing blazing base 111 speed + boltbeam coverage. 4th move can be twave / taunt which allows it to either prevent opposing setup or threaten stall immensely. Physical defiant sets that have become more common lately are no less threatening - bulk up sets will almost always catch the op off guard and is backed by a solid attack stat and good coverage options. An anti-hazard removal set can also be run on offensive teams - no common defogger/spinner is safe against kn + superpower + electric coverage with max attack LO. Remember the fourth moveslot in this set is still up for grabs.
Sub is great too, to scout moves, rack up LO recoil, stall outrage...
Crazily good mon in the current meta. Really needs to be s-rank so people are at least aware how devastating this thing can be.
Tesung 's other suggestions:
Exca needs to be A at least as it has a niche as the best spinner in ou by miles, this alone means it provides unrivaled team support. It's p diverse too, being able to act as a sand rush sweeper, or run scarf (fucking underrated) which is nearly unstoppable at spinning against any offensive team and can quickly destroy momentum that they take pains to build all early game. Mold breaker EQ is just awesome too and can be used to sweep late game (looking at scarf again).
A seems just right for Gren too, if only because of its extensive and often unpredictable (the 3rd and 4th move) coverage coupled with perm stab in protean.
Everything else I agree with, although he might not have explained his rationale fully I can see where he's coming from and some of those opinions would probably spark and make for good discussion here.
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While Thundy is very good, I'm not sure he's S Rank. He's so frail, and unlike the other frail S Rank, MLuke, he doesn't have incredible attack power- 125 SpAtk is good but not amazing. He's a great prankster, but again his frailty can hold him back in that respect occasionally, especially with his weakness to Stealth Rock. He can't get past many walls, particularly MVenu (seriously, what Flying STAB? HP Flying?) and relies on HP Ice for coverage, which is a poor coverage option unless the opponent is 4x weak.
Tesung: Could you please explain your reasoning for those drops in more detail? Particularly Gyara. Personal experience is a bad indicator of viability.
Tesung: Could you please explain your reasoning for those drops in more detail? Particularly Gyara. Personal experience is a bad indicator of viability.
Thundurus-I offers great sweeping capability and team support at the same time. You could have Thundy-I do almost anything you'd care for it to do: Nasty Plot breaks defensive cores, Taunt screws Swagger and Baton Pass teams amongst other things, Prankster Thunder Wave duhhh, it can even be your Defiant user if Bisharp isn't your thing. Thundy-I's offensive movepool is also great, and it relying on Hidden Power for coverage doesn't really say anything for it since it does have the power to make use of it (via Nasty Plot mostly, but it can still OHKO stuff like Garchomp and Gliscor with Life Orb).
Thundy-I is very easily customisable on and against every playstyle; one can honestly just throw a Thundurus-I onto a team, tweak it a bit and ta-da it becomes a great team member; either it does the supporting and/or it receives support to wreck everything. S-Rank Pokemon tend to have these traits, and Thundurus-I does fit this bill.
What makes Thundy worthy of s rank is not any one single set it can run. I feel I have outlined the reasons for my nomination p succinctly in my precious post: in a nutshell, respectable offenses + a very convenient speed tier + stellar coverage options (such that next to nothing commonly seen in ou can counter it if it runs the appropriate move) + prankster in conjunction with twave and the ability to set up on both sides of the spectrum leads to it being able to run several radically different sets to great effect. Among these, it can be an all-out attacker with insane coverage, prevent hazard removal, be a great set up sweeper from both ends of the spectrum, stallbreak very effectively, and provide immense utility with prankster twave by stopping opposing setup (possibly effortlessly putting a halt to what might be the op's wincon).
All this shows Thundy has numerous viable niches in this meta, and this incredible versatility is characteristic of a typical s ranked mon.
Also:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
EDIT: about Gyarados - it has proven to be quite the anti-meta pokemon (as with last gen), what with its new mega form having mold breaker and a nifty typing that allows it to check threatening pokemon like aegislash quite well. Intimidate and good bulk + good typing allow regular gyara to switch in and set up more easily than most other setup sweepers too. One of the mons keeping it in check though happens to be Thundy - its prevalence on the higher ladder means we're seeing less of gyara there than we otherwise would + it works less effectively as a sweeper/cleaner than it otherwise should (fuk prankster twave)
All this shows Thundy has numerous viable niches in this meta, and this incredible versatility is characteristic of a typical s ranked mon.
Also:
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Flying vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
EDIT: about Gyarados - it has proven to be quite the anti-meta pokemon (as with last gen), what with its new mega form having mold breaker and a nifty typing that allows it to check threatening pokemon like aegislash quite well. Intimidate and good bulk + good typing allow regular gyara to switch in and set up more easily than most other setup sweepers too. One of the mons keeping it in check though happens to be Thundy - its prevalence on the higher ladder means we're seeing less of gyara there than we otherwise would + it works less effectively as a sweeper/cleaner than it otherwise should (fuk prankster twave)
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All that is true. I can attest to Thundy's splashability myself, he does indeed provide a lot of support and aid. However, I still believe he has enough flaws to perhaps not be S Rank: His already-stated frailty is one, his need to run Hidden Power which is only worth a damn if the thing it's being used against is 4x weak is another. He's a fast sweeper that can do prankster work on the side, a niche unique to him, but is it really large enough to warrant S rank? 125 SpAtk isn't that impressive, especially when he lacks a priority move or any attacks of particularly high base power now that rain is gimped.
Malefic: You can't run HP flying and HP Ice. Which one will it be? And you keep going on about his coverage, but I don't see why. He has the typical special attacker movepool of a STAB, Focus Blast, Hidden Power, Grass Knot, and Dark Pulse- good coverage options but not very different from most other special attackers. I fail to see how his coverage can be used as something in his favor when most other special attackers have the exact same moves. He is very versatile though, that's unarguable.
I'm not exactly against Thundurus going S Rank, but I believe he has flaws that need to be addressed.
Actually, i was referring to Thundy's access to superpower and knock off, which with LO and a solid base 115 attack allows it to hit quite hard from both ends of the spectrum (even with attack uninvested in, or one can find a optimal balance between atk / spa investment, OR run a fully physical set viably), unlike most other offensive mons. For example, ttar walls bolt beam and grass knot (not that it's very viable) but switching it in might end up in it simply getting 1-hit by 0 atk LO superpower (no need to risk fmiss). And, I'm not saying that hp flying should be run, but for teams that have venu problems, it actually is a viable option to dispatch venu with :]
I pretty much said anything relevant about Thundurus-I being S Rang on Page 140.
But what I didn't mention is, that it does lack the ability to use its second STAB but thats not an issue, because it serves more for resisting purposes like tanking a non-boosted CC or switch into EQ, like Gyarados does. More over, Thundurus might have not the greatest defense, but that is usually not really an argument against it being S.
But what I didn't mention is, that it does lack the ability to use its second STAB but thats not an issue, because it serves more for resisting purposes like tanking a non-boosted CC or switch into EQ, like Gyarados does. More over, Thundurus might have not the greatest defense, but that is usually not really an argument against it being S.
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