Zard X has a lot of things going for it, and if we compare it with Y we see that it has a massive, clear advantage over it, that being the 4MSS. You see while ZardY has to choose between dealing with Special Blobs, Recovery, Speed (don't think I've seen a legit tailwind set just yet), Dragons and Heatran among others, ZardX is perfectly fine with running Dragon + Fire Stabs, and that's it. It can then go on to either add coverage to the remaining 2 pokemon that give it troubles unboosted (Azumarill or Heatran), use DD and roost to power right through them, Will-o-wisp and roost for defensive sets or even an SD set. Dragon Dance also occupies one slot while boosting it's speed and attack at the same time, and unlike special walls and CharY, X can power through and 2HKO Physical walls after setting up once.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)
- Thread starter ginganinja
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Its not like were nominating Ditto for B+/A- rank, i think the fact that you mentioned all his flaws and yet still think he deserves a B- rank further strengthens ditto's argument!
Yes his team needs to be carefully crafted but what he brings to the table far outweighs what ppl can do about it.
A) In my experience, Ditto does not at all need his team built around him. He's more like a glue that can hold together a team if need be.
B) It doesn't matter what Ditto can do if your opponent doesn't let him do it. The only things he really does well against are non-scarfed Volt Turners and boosted threats (provided they're not too bulky and didn't use a bulk-boosting move like Bulk Up or Calm Mind.) Ditto isn't 100% dead weight if neither of those come into play, but his utility is hugely diminished.
I think it's also worth noting that, while he can be a phenomenal revenge killer, he's facing quite a bit of competition for that slot. Genesect, Talonflame, etc. The biggest strength Ditto's competition has over him is the ability to do stuff regardless of what the opponent does.
Ditto is WAY too matchup reliant to rise a rank. Its pretty good against HO but crap against bulky offensive, stall and sometimes balanced teams. It does its job pretty well but it depends too much on what team youre facing making it rather inconsistent. Should stay where it is.
Ditto has a good niche, but not one that is easily performed. It's tricky, and requires somewhat (IMO: very) precise conditions for it to work.
B rank is for Pokemon out classed by a rank and Pokemon that can do well in their role, provided they get somee support
C rank are the Pokemon that have a good niche but requires a lot of support, which can mean, very specific conditions as well, which is where ditto falls in.
It is awesome and viable, but it's not that good. I think c+ is just fine.
B rank is for Pokemon out classed by a rank and Pokemon that can do well in their role, provided they get somee support
C rank are the Pokemon that have a good niche but requires a lot of support, which can mean, very specific conditions as well, which is where ditto falls in.
It is awesome and viable, but it's not that good. I think c+ is just fine.
You know to me it's surprising how balanced the list is to the point I really don't have anything to suggest either in terms of adding a new pokemon or dropping down pokemon a grade (well, I'd like Char Y to go down to A+ but that's a minor thing).
So how about instead we go look for promotions?
It already has Smogon Bird in it's name, its pros are known to everyone (quick recap: Priority BB + Fire typing) and outside of a full stall team it is really hard to find a reason not to use one as among the best revenge killers, sweepers and late game cleaners with priority the game can offer. So why is it not S?
I could only think it is being judged by it's presumed counters/checks, weakness to SR, extremely limited movepool beyond it's STABs and maybe death by recoil claims.
If we look at the current S-Tier list, after one SD Talonflame can basically nuke everything off with one move (there is also CB which doesn't need any setting up especially late game). That is certainly S-tier material if you ask me.
SR maybe a problem and is a required support on your part, but the same can be said for MPinsir, MChars and even scarf/U-turn Gene. That didn't stop them from being on top.
When it comes to the first line of defense against Talonflame, TTar and Heatran are both killed after a Fight, +2 Natural Gift (also hits Rotom-W neutrally) while he can claim the same against the washing machine with changing the berry to a grass type. The beauty about this fact is there is nothing you can do or guess about until it is too late. But let assume that these are hard counters and Natural Gift is a niche set, Aegislash is murdered by Bisharp and (common) Ground types, MVenu needs to steer clear from the Bird and Psychic types/lures, etc. Having 2-3 counters isn't a reason to drop it down.
Recoil is an issue and is why there are checks to this pokemon that don't necessarily resist his hits rather than being a 1 for 1 trade off (Garchomp, Ferro, etc.), but he does have roost.
So if I am not being too unreasonable here, I'd like to push Talonflame for S Tier.
So how about instead we go look for promotions?
It already has Smogon Bird in it's name, its pros are known to everyone (quick recap: Priority BB + Fire typing) and outside of a full stall team it is really hard to find a reason not to use one as among the best revenge killers, sweepers and late game cleaners with priority the game can offer. So why is it not S?
I could only think it is being judged by it's presumed counters/checks, weakness to SR, extremely limited movepool beyond it's STABs and maybe death by recoil claims.
If we look at the current S-Tier list, after one SD Talonflame can basically nuke everything off with one move (there is also CB which doesn't need any setting up especially late game). That is certainly S-tier material if you ask me.
SR maybe a problem and is a required support on your part, but the same can be said for MPinsir, MChars and even scarf/U-turn Gene. That didn't stop them from being on top.
When it comes to the first line of defense against Talonflame, TTar and Heatran are both killed after a Fight, +2 Natural Gift (also hits Rotom-W neutrally) while he can claim the same against the washing machine with changing the berry to a grass type. The beauty about this fact is there is nothing you can do or guess about until it is too late. But let assume that these are hard counters and Natural Gift is a niche set, Aegislash is murdered by Bisharp and (common) Ground types, MVenu needs to steer clear from the Bird and Psychic types/lures, etc. Having 2-3 counters isn't a reason to drop it down.
Recoil is an issue and is why there are checks to this pokemon that don't necessarily resist his hits rather than being a 1 for 1 trade off (Garchomp, Ferro, etc.), but he does have roost.
So if I am not being too unreasonable here, I'd like to push Talonflame for S Tier.
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Talonflame is good at what it does, but onedimensional as it is thats not all that much aside from picking of weakened threats. Its to weak to ko anything with a little bulk and is easily koed back in return, it needs lots of support because of its stealthrock weakness, it suffers alot from recoil, and is completely useless against the most used Pokemon in the tier. I dont even think that Chari X belongs into the S Tier and Talonflame doesnt for sure. Priority Bravebird is a nice toy to have, but its pretty much the only thing that makes talonflame viable at all and its not enough for S Rank imo.
Well I think this discussion is nice to find the cutoff of the S-Tier in a more detailed manner but outside of the ranking matter, I think you are selling the bird a short here.
Talonflame has lots of opportunities to set up, can function with a CB and take advantage of it's priority BB if it wants to and as seen on the S-Tier, defog/Rapid Spin support is not a deal killer. As for being useless against Rotom-W, the latter does not have reliable recovery and assuming non Natural Gift sets (he can be OHKO'd most of the time with Leichi Berry at +2), Rotom-W (which partially gets it's high usage because of the bird) needs to stay healthy to face him otherwise even a fully defensive set cannot bear the brunt of an SD BB under 50% health.
Stealthrock isnt a total killer if the poke u get offsets that disadvantage by far. Imo thats the case with Chari Y since he is a huge threat immediatly and hard to stop. Charizard X is a lot easier to handle imo thats why i am not sure if he belongs into S rank but thats another topic. Pinsir is a somewhat different case since he doesnt take 50% in his normal form and he doesnt have to evolve unless he wants to attempt a sweep and his Power once he got that SD boost is off the charts. The rest of the high ranked pokes dont suffer that much from SR. Given his SR Weakness and his sub par defenses its difficult to find a setup opportunity and even if u reach + 2 there is still so much in the meta that can stop u with ease. The SD Set is more for sweeping than for revengekilling since it needs the setup boost and in terms of sweeping potential it doesnt even get close to the power of the S Tier pokes or even most of the A tier. At the end of the day 81 Attack simply isnt made for sweeping, even with 120 BP moves.
You kind of gave most of the reasons he isn't S-tier in your own post, but I'd like to elaborate on them a bit.
While it's true that other great Pokemon share the bird's SR allergy, they aren't quite as heavily affected by it for a few reasons. First is Talonflame's role in a team. As a revenge killer/cleaner, he needs to be able to come in more than once (most of the time.) Second is his frailty; it's hard to hit Talonflame and not KO it. Third is that recoil issue. This is extremely problematic when he really can't hit hard without his STABs, both of which will KO him quickly (especially with speed creep forcing many Talonflame to run Speed EV's over HP EV's.)
As such, he needs more support than a qualified S-Rank mon should. It's not to say that he isn't great, 'cause he is, but he's not S-Rank material.
I'd like to type more but I'm running late for work. =/
It is perfectly natural to question a pokemons ranking and influence in a metagame, especially when changes/bans occur so I prefer to delay discussions about the placing of certain pokemon such as the Mega Charizards until that occurs.
As far as the strength of Talonflame goes, his ability to seriously threaten ALL of the S-Tier and most of the A+ tier to be a testament of his strength.
Talonflame is frail, and as such cannot be used to set up except on defensive pokemons or not to be used until a revenge killing opportunity or a SE hit can be achieved where being hit back isn't an issue anymore especially with his Priority/Fantastic speed. I'd say that is somewhat similar to Gene who runs no bulk or even MLuca. Yes they both have at least 30 points difference in defenses but the point remains, they either need to be sure they can kill off whatever it is they are brought upon or attempt to set up on weak defensive mons that can't threaten them or otherwise they won't take a hit either with the way they are used.
The recoil issue is there and it is much more severe than what CharX has with Flare Blitz (arguably X's most reliable/used move) but do note that Talonflame has Roost when necessary to his role, he is not a Mega and as a primarily cleaner/revenge killer at full health he can take down at least 3 pokemons without roosting (2 if we happen to take into account a Rocky Helmet user), I personally think that's a great deal for my buck, but that's is subjective.
As far as the strength of Talonflame goes, his ability to seriously threaten ALL of the S-Tier and most of the A+ tier to be a testament of his strength.
Well I preferred to address the concerns and the reasons why people aren't listing him as an S right on. Anyway, the roles between the S tier Megas and Talonflame are quiet different and I am glad that you brought that up, but it is a fact that without the ability to remove SR from the field that MPinsir and MCharizards (and often switching Gene) are severely crippled during the match and what they can hope for, Pinsir for example is to find a good opportunity to set up and just take 25% damage without needing to switch out ever again or worry of a revenge killing priority (for example our feathery friend). So despite the difference in their roles, they all require defog/Rapid Spin support to work.
Talonflame is frail, and as such cannot be used to set up except on defensive pokemons or not to be used until a revenge killing opportunity or a SE hit can be achieved where being hit back isn't an issue anymore especially with his Priority/Fantastic speed. I'd say that is somewhat similar to Gene who runs no bulk or even MLuca. Yes they both have at least 30 points difference in defenses but the point remains, they either need to be sure they can kill off whatever it is they are brought upon or attempt to set up on weak defensive mons that can't threaten them or otherwise they won't take a hit either with the way they are used.
The recoil issue is there and it is much more severe than what CharX has with Flare Blitz (arguably X's most reliable/used move) but do note that Talonflame has Roost when necessary to his role, he is not a Mega and as a primarily cleaner/revenge killer at full health he can take down at least 3 pokemons without roosting (2 if we happen to take into account a Rocky Helmet user), I personally think that's a great deal for my buck, but that's is subjective.
Now that Shaymin officially has an analysis in progress can we put it on the ranking thread? I think B- would be the best rank (1 rank above Celebi whom it is more effective than this gen)
Why would you say it's more effective? Part of why Celebi is worse off this gen is its weakness to Flying and Fire (à la Talonflame), and Shaymin shares those. Shaymin has a better STAB move, but Celebi has stat boosting moves and a second STAB. I think Celebi and Shaymin should be at the same rank. What rank that is is arguable (I'd honestly push for B-).
Additionally, I think we should rank the other cute pixies, Jirachi and Victini. Jirachi's scarf set is very effective now, due to the fact that it can outspeed and OHKO Genesect. If Genesect goes, this'll obviously be less of a point, but still. The scarf set can also be aggravating with flinching, and go mixed with Thunderbolt/Psychic. Jirachi can also do his annoying paraflinch tactics from last gen, but Togekiss has arguably surpassed him. I'd definitely place him at B.
Victini's choice scarf/band sets are also very scary. Not much can handle V-Creates, even though there isn't the sun from last gen. Victini is relatively slow, so it does have to choose between power and speed. So, depending on the choice, he does have various checks/counters. He still is effective (although not very versatile), and I'd put it at B-.
The thing is that MPinsir and MCharizard dont have to switch in that often since they are setup sweepers. Normaly they switch in once, set up and sweep. When using Talonflame as a revenger, he needs to be able to come in all the time in order to do his job. Its much harder to permanently keep hazards off from ur side of the field then just getting rid of them for a turn to bring ur sweeper in. And when using the SD set on Talonflame which is pretty much a sweeping set he is just utterly outclassed by the other Pokes because of his low dmg output and limited coverage.
Its true that Mluce is similar in terms of non existing bulk but like i mentioned above, Luce OHKOs pretty much everything after setting up, his dmg output is in a whole other league compared to talonflame and he has far better coverage and his moves dont have recoil.
The thing is when u have to waste a round to use roost the chances are good that talonflame will just get OHKOed on the spot. He simply lacks the bulk for that. And his premier revenge killing set (CB) cant even use roost properly.
I would say it's better because it doesn't have as many weakness's (Although not as many resists either) and has a better stab move and better coverage options in general. It's better than Celebi in offense but I suppose that Celebi can run better defensive sets but form personal experience I've found Shaymin's offensive LO set to be pretty powerful especially against teams that don't have Talonflame. I guess they could both be B- rank I just mean't in my earlier post that Shaymin is a better offensive threat than Celebi while Celebi's greater resists make it a better defensive threat.
It's bulk isn't that bad if you put a little EV investment in it. Also, getting rid of SR is easier than ever this generation so while it hates SR, that's pretty much it's only flaw as really not much can survive it's late game cleaning.
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Shaymin and Celebi play slightly different.
Ignoring that, Celebi has many more weaknesses with it's typing, especially from a defensive point of view. Sure, it has another STAB, but it also has a 4x weakness to bug, and has more weaknesses in Dark and Ghost. Despite Celebi having STAB Psychic, the weaknesses to two common types far outweigh the fact is has STAB against Fighting types. Shaymin is useful if someone needs an offensive grass type but can't afford to compound those weaknesses. Celebi gains two resistances in Fighting and Psychic, but those aren't useful enough in comparison to the fact it becomes 4x weak to bug and 2x weak to Ghost and Dark.
On the terms of playstyle, Celebi has a much more favorable defensive movepool. Shaymin can theoretically run defensive movepools, but usually sticks to SubSeed at most. Celebi also doesn't rely on Synthesis for recovery, it has Recover. Shaymin has Tailwind if that matters. The reason Shaymin is more offensive is because it has a better STAB option. Movepool differences offensively are Shaymin cannot learn Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, or Nasty Plot; whereas Celebi cannot learn Air Slash. Shaymin really doesn't care about not having Shadow Ball or Signal Beam, it only loses out on SE damage on Ghosts and Psychics with Shadow Ball. Even if it did have those option, Celebi can't run them all and Air Slash over Signal Beam does just fine with dealing with other Grass types. In general, Celebi has a much better physical movepool than Shaymin although you'll almost never see it used.
Celebi is used defensively to resist Fighting. It's also got Thunder Wave. That's pretty much the difference. Celebi is way more common defensively and Shaymin offensively because it gets Flying coverage. You could theoretically run defensive Shaymin if you wanted to and didn't want some of the weaknesses Celebi has and don't mind no longer resisting Fighting and Psychic. Both are useful in their own means, but I'd rate Shaymin slightly higher. It just has a more favorable typing in the long run. Fighting and Psychic aren't really hard to deal with when the same types Celebi is weak to that Shaymin isn't are immune to one of the types and are extremely common. Shaymin is immensely more useful.
alexwolf
Some changes I propose... I don't wanna go in depth for each one cause that will be a huge wall of text. So instead maybe it can spur some discussion.
Aegislash: S --> A (The days of this thing being king are over. The meta is super prepared for it. It's not that good. The only thing that it temporarily can boast is that it stops lucario, which is gonna be gone. It was an S-tier pokemon when the meta was new, now it's totally nbd)
Venusaur: S --> A (Same goes for venu. Gets wrecked by SR, weather, and burns (if it's on your team it's probably your answer to Rotom-W. have fun getting burned). When lucario and genesect leaves, it's lost 2 of its main purposes. Still a nice azumarill counter, but it's not that good anymore. Birds, pinsir, deo-S, latios, and charizard, basically most of the upper tier completely destroy venu)
Conkeldurr: A-->A- (Since when has conk actually had major utility for your team? It mostly "fills in the gap" per say, and isn't as bulky or strong as it pretends to be)
Greninja: A--> A- (Idk I just feel it's not that good. A- material)
Gyarados: A--> A- (Mega doesn't get crunch, and the non-mega can't wall very well because of SR)
Mega Scizor (only): A--> S (Has the bulk of skarmory and a beastly typing. Late game SD sweeps are incredibly easy, or it can be a huge tank and counter azumarill with insane utility in defog (hazards), knock off (wear down), u turn (momentum), and bullet punch (priority). This thing is the most underrated mega out there. Most of its stops can be taken out by the combination of U-turn to mag/dug if you want to sweep)
Terrakion: A--> A- (Fairies really fucked this guy, and aegislash. Hard to stay relevant. Not A material imo)
Hippowdon: B --> A- (Definitely a great wall and huge support in smooth rock. Worthy of the small A- tier)
Tornadus-T: B--> A- (Assault vest set can switch into 80% of the metagame and has access to knock off/uturn/flying+fight mix coverage... life orb set takes more advatnage of the airslash+superpower coverage, while also hitting with hard fast uturns. Incredible utility)
Espeon: C+--> B (It's not that great, but it has the niche of being the best offensive dual screener because it has baton pass for HUGE momentum on HO teams. That's enough of a niche for me)
Magnezone: C+ --> B+ (It's not 5th gen where its a deadweight on teams without skarmory or ferrothorn. This thing (scarved) is just a generally good pokemon that can take out top threats and make way for huge sweeps. So many 1800+ teams use this as a testament to its underrated-ness)
Also pokemon can't be "conclusion reached" forever. It should be more like "discussion banned for 30 days". Same goes for blacklisted..
Some changes I propose... I don't wanna go in depth for each one cause that will be a huge wall of text. So instead maybe it can spur some discussion.
Aegislash: S --> A (The days of this thing being king are over. The meta is super prepared for it. It's not that good. The only thing that it temporarily can boast is that it stops lucario, which is gonna be gone. It was an S-tier pokemon when the meta was new, now it's totally nbd)
Venusaur: S --> A (Same goes for venu. Gets wrecked by SR, weather, and burns (if it's on your team it's probably your answer to Rotom-W. have fun getting burned). When lucario and genesect leaves, it's lost 2 of its main purposes. Still a nice azumarill counter, but it's not that good anymore. Birds, pinsir, deo-S, latios, and charizard, basically most of the upper tier completely destroy venu)
Conkeldurr: A-->A- (Since when has conk actually had major utility for your team? It mostly "fills in the gap" per say, and isn't as bulky or strong as it pretends to be)
Greninja: A--> A- (Idk I just feel it's not that good. A- material)
Gyarados: A--> A- (Mega doesn't get crunch, and the non-mega can't wall very well because of SR)
Mega Scizor (only): A--> S (Has the bulk of skarmory and a beastly typing. Late game SD sweeps are incredibly easy, or it can be a huge tank and counter azumarill with insane utility in defog (hazards), knock off (wear down), u turn (momentum), and bullet punch (priority). This thing is the most underrated mega out there. Most of its stops can be taken out by the combination of U-turn to mag/dug if you want to sweep)
Terrakion: A--> A- (Fairies really fucked this guy, and aegislash. Hard to stay relevant. Not A material imo)
Hippowdon: B --> A- (Definitely a great wall and huge support in smooth rock. Worthy of the small A- tier)
Tornadus-T: B--> A- (Assault vest set can switch into 80% of the metagame and has access to knock off/uturn/flying+fight mix coverage... life orb set takes more advatnage of the airslash+superpower coverage, while also hitting with hard fast uturns. Incredible utility)
Espeon: C+--> B (It's not that great, but it has the niche of being the best offensive dual screener because it has baton pass for HUGE momentum on HO teams. That's enough of a niche for me)
Magnezone: C+ --> B+ (It's not 5th gen where its a deadweight on teams without skarmory or ferrothorn. This thing (scarved) is just a generally good pokemon that can take out top threats and make way for huge sweeps. So many 1800+ teams use this as a testament to its underrated-ness)
Also pokemon can't be "conclusion reached" forever. It should be more like "discussion banned for 30 days". Same goes for blacklisted..
I'll wait till lucario / hopefully genesect leaves to really make my case for venu going down then. But honestly it should be obvious given even the recent meta shifts (charizard, pinsir, staraptor, physical thundurus, tornadus).
This is not reasoning that will actually persuade anyone to change their minds about Greninja. Just feeling a different tier might be more suitable is fine, but actually arguing for a tier change takes... an actual argument.
Dont know what u mean by "super prepared" but the only things that can stop its mixed sets are Mandybuzz and Spd Hippo everything else takes tons of dmg from it. Aside from that i dont think that "beeing prepared for it" should affect the ranking of a poke. Aegislash is strong as hell and that didnt change at all so it should stay at S Rank where it belongs.
I agree with promoting Hippo though, its far to good to be B Rank, honestly is probably the best wall there is along with mega venu.
Its not its only flaw, arguably its biggest but there other drawbacks that hold it back.
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I disagree with moving Espeon up. While Magic Bounce does give it a niche, it is not a very good Pokemon beyond that. Psychic is a very poor typing in this meta due to the ubiquity of Ghost- and Dark-type moves, and Espeon cannot beat most relevant hazard setters. Everything has some way to hit Espeon really hard; Tyranitar has Crunch and Pursuit and laughs at practically everything Espeon can throw at it; Heatran also laughs at Espeon and can spam attacks at it, Scolipede and Galvantula have Bug STAB, Landorus-T can U-turn, etc. This is in addition to the fact that Espeon is very one dimensional and most people in the right mind will know what Espeon will do. It will also eventually fold to repeated assaults, which is easy because Espeon's typing is really bad, not to mention it is very frail. I'd much sooner use something else like Xatu or Mega Absol as a Bouncer, in general there are plenty of other ways to deal with hazards right now. Overall, I feel Espeon's niche is not good enough for B-Rank and it should remain in C Rank. It does have a niche but that niche isn't too amazing.
I also think Aegislash is good where it's at, might comment on that when I get my thoughts together, and Mega Venusaur was forbidden from being discussed.
I also think Aegislash is good where it's at, might comment on that when I get my thoughts together, and Mega Venusaur was forbidden from being discussed.
- Aegislash is really good. It hits like a truck and has good bulk along with its amazing typing. 720 BST is what you're playing when used correctly and can spinblock too and King's Shield + steel nerf = s rank aegislash
- Venusaur is Conlusion Reached and yes I read that last line of your post
- not commenting on conk, I think it could drop
- Greninja is like defense and offense with protean and Water / Ice / Dark STAB combo is really hard to switch into. It can also set up spkies and t-spikes considering all the switches it forces. Keep it in A-Rank
- non-mega dos can sweep with DD too and has really good typing + intimidate; mega dos has bite which does the same thing as crunch but fails to ohko slowbro but its not really that common
- mega scizor has a limited movepool and is outclassed by normal scizor offensively. its defensive SD and defog sets are really good though but take up a mega slot where id use zapdos or regular scizor for those sets
- not commenting on hippowdon
- I agree completely with Tornadus-T in A- Rank! Everyone has put completely bullcrap arguments against why it should stay. Lol, "Conkeldurr prevents it from being B+". Tornadus-T is A- Rank. Alexwolf B+ Rank at very least pls. This thing is amazing. There was a reason it got banned last gen and only little has changed to keep it rom sucking.
- Not commenting on espeon
- B+ is a little too much for zone. Solid B- Rank seems good since Fairy-types can switch predicting a flash cannon. steel nerf doesnt help it either. DragMag needs Mega Charizard X to break past Fairy-types with ease and MegaZard X makes Dragmag ---> CharDrag
If those two are the reason Venusaur is S rank, then sure, he could be discussed but there are a multitude of factors that allow him to be ranked so highly and no longer capable of discussion for the time being. If their banning does make it discussable, then okay, but we will not know till told it is no longer deemed un-discussable.
- Status