+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 460-544 (129.9 - 153.6%)
So first of all how deo-s does in ubers doesn't factor at all into if it's broken in OU or not. If it's broken in OU and terrible in Ubers, it's still broken in OU, and needs to go.
SkarmBlissey or VeneTran can be broken by that reasoning. Skarmory can run away from a special attacks and likely Blissey can run from a Conkeldurr's Drain Punch or Choice Band Azumarill's Waterfall.
They can run, but Genesect has switch initiative. If you hard switch out and Genesect U-Turns, it gets to see what you brought in and switch to a counter. If you don't switch, it can just go into a hard counter for what you have out. By contrast, with most defensive cores no-one has switch initiative; both players have equal odds (modified by prediction skills) of making a favorable switch or double switch. The only way to get switch initiative on Genesect is a slower U-Turn or Volt Switch, which implies something has to take Genesect's U-Turn, frequently at +1 to avoid boosted special moves. If switching and U-Turn somehow had the same priority, it would be a different matter. Scarf Genesect would almost never have switch initiative, and would be so much less threatening. But that is not the case.
Lucario comes in on something that can't threaten it or forces it out, like Tyranitar or Blissey. Now what do I do?
Yeah, but it's also slower than Lucario and has a quad weaknesses to fighting.
Bug/Steel is one of the best defensive typing in the game, not so on the offensive side, ghost/fight, earth/ice, etc. does the job better.
This actually applies to every single fast Voltturn user. If Rotom-W and Thundurus-T was not banned(though Thunderus-I was) in the last gen with STAB Hydro Pumb/Thunder in rain, which was equally powerful EVEN RESISTED(which is why Gastrodon is picked up even with neither its stat nor its utility sufficient to be called a "dedicated" wall), I see little reason for Genesect to receive one. Genesect was banned last gen for its rock polish set, which is no longer viable as the meta is significantly more bulkier compared to the last, you are not going to sweep with +1 boost.
Your experience doesn't matter to anyone else. Just because you can predict Lucario to boost doesn't mean it isn't broken. If your opponents are boosting on something that can potentially carry a dangerous move, then you're just fighting terrible people. People need to stop using "their experiences" as arguments. I don't understand how anyone can deny Mega Lucario's brokenness unless it's a desperate attempt to keep something grossly overpowered and easy to use to get automatic wins. It's Mega Kanga all over again....
Yes, I agree. There has been some discussion of Deoxys-S on page 16/17, so ideally people would go read that, because honestly I can't think of any more arguments for/against the Deoxys-S ban that haven't already been done there. Anyway, although I don't like Genesect, I can't really think of a strong reason to ban it, or not to ban it. Really, I think somebody should try to think of a concrete reason why it should be banned or not - how punishing it is when you don't anticipate which set it is using right might be a good start.
Calm_Mind_Latias was saying that Genesect's U-Turn was essentially no different to manually switching out to defensive cores. My post in response was an explanation of how it was superior, not an argument for banning Genesect.
The problem is that not every team is perfect and you can't prepare for every pokemon. You might not have a hard counter for what your opponent has out and something on your team is going to take a hit. Aeigslash is a pretty good example of this as flamethrower won't do much and shadow ball+plus shadow sneak can take out genesect.
My response, in response to the a statement that said Genesect was "broken" because it can choose its fights, was the SkarmBliss core can choose to pick its fights too. The mechanics Volt-Turn (assuming no ground type immunity to make it less complicated) can give a player some valuable momentum against the core (or any other switch in) where manual switching is undesired. I most certainly would not make the mistake to say that U-Turn is equivalent to manual switching, especially when it is coming from a STAB, Download boosted U-turn from a respectable 120 Atk. Indeed, Genesect's U-Turn isn't chip damage, and one needs a Bug resistance or defensive stats in order to absorb it (like Skarmory), but Bug is not a good attacking type to use anyway. Normally, Skarm can absorb a U-Turn just fine if the Genesect is threatening to damage Blissey. However, the Skarm-Bliss core user can use Rocky Helmet on Skarmory as a means of passive mind games to deter this strategy. Genesect requires prediction to use if one want to use it as a momentum generator in this case as it is very costly if it hits into the Rocky Helmet Skarmory. Moreover, stall teams can be considered to have a natural advantage in their ability to control hazards than more tactical teams who are often content to have Rocks up to cripple Talonflame or HO teams who simply want it off the field. Stall teams should be played and built to have better hazard control (and it is certainly viable this Gen even with a paucity of reliable spinblockers to keep their hazards up and Defog to circumvent Ghosts, and Defog, while more reliable, removes your hazards too) than more offensive teams. Hazard control is something where a stall team usually should have an edge at. Genesect would most often switch into Stealth Rock in order to do a scouting run or assassination attempt, which are both risky.
I haven't been contributing anything to this discussion, but I feel the need to address this post, because it's extremely misleading. You're exaggerating skarmory's ability to reliably deal with Genesect. You say that Genesect using u-turn isn't a conservative way of gaining momentum against stall, but that's ludicrously untrue. Even if Skarmory is carrying rocky helmet, the Genesect user is probably going to find it worth it if a Skarmory switches in on the u-turn, ESPECIALLY if the Skarmory is on a stall team. Sure, Genesect may have eaten SR damage, but it gets to bring something in to put immediate pressure on Skarmory. This is more detrimental to a stall team since they rely heavily on keeping their walls healthy, and Skarmory's durability is going to be greatly reduced carrying rocky helmet. You're also not taking into consideration the risk the Skarmory user has to take on by switching in on Genesect to begin with. Flamethrower isn't uncommon at all on any Genesect set, even banded ones, so the burden placed on the Skarmory user is much much greater than that of the Genesect user. You, like many of the people who defended Genesect staying OU last gen, are underplaying how having u-turn on a pokemon with an amazing movepool, a variety of sets that span both sides of the attacking spectrum, and download on top of it is simply way too much to be healthy for the meta.
Nothing that I posted on this page supports anything that is quoted if one comprehends what I said.
+2 252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 250-295 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Sorry about misunderstanding your point, but you can't consider Genesect just in the context of stall. This decision on whether or not to ban the suspects impacts the whole metagame; every stall, HO, balance and every weather/field condition/baton pass/etc team that shows up in it. Outside of stall, hazard control tends to be less of a focus, and the voltturn teams genesect is used on love keeping pressure up to make spinning/defogging difficult for the opponent. Healing is also far more common on stall: a lot of offensive pokes can't get health back... pretty much at all once they're hit. Additionally, Rocky Helmet sacrifices leftovers, the importance of which keeps blissey tiered above the bulkier eviolite chansey.
Genesect's physical attack is equal to his special attack, sitting at base 120 which is (coincidentally) equal to Arceus. So if it gets an attack boost (not uncommon) from download and a shift gear boost, it has literally the same attack stat as a +2 arceus, outspeeds every relevant scarfer (remember shift gear is +2 speed) and has priority alongside excellent neutral coverage with iron head, blaze kick and E-speed (resisted only by Heatran, Jellicent and Chandelure, I believe. I may be missing some though). don't dismiss Shift Gear.
I understand your argument. If Genesect could repeatedly go in without the threat of suffering from residual damage, then the Genesect user has a statistical advantage due to the increased amount of scouting trials it could perform and use its coverage move at random time to secure a kill. You are correct that it is prediction-free and effective. However, residual damage limits the number of trials it could run, and in this case, there is more immediate pressure on Genesect to kill the Skarmory in order to eliminate a component of a defense core. Genesect can threaten and apply psychology pressure when it is on the battlefield, but it too also feels similar pressure. Genesect certainly has the tools to kill stall Pokemon quickly but it cannot do so reliably.
