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Fire Blast/Flamethrower - I'm against CAP10 getting any Fire move (assuming, of course, that Hidden Power doesn't count) as it does hit Bronzong and Celebi SE, and toasting Grass-types, who resist dual STABs. Do we really want a CAP with ~150/~70/~70 defenses running around with Flamethrower/Ice Beam/T-Bolt/Surf with Life Orb?
Charge Beam - I also feel that Charge Beam should be disallowed. It may turn into a Rotom-A with better bulk, using the "Boosting Sweeper" set to rip holes, while not really being customized.
Earthquake - Earthquake seems OK for me, hitting numerous Steels like Metagross, Jirachi, and even Skarmory (Roost mindgames). Luckily, it doesn't hit Bronzong, bar rare Heatproof ones.
Crabhammer - I think it's perfectly fine, but who's going to use it when you have Waterfall? In a competitive environment, a miss is just too costly. Besides, a High CH ratio is not better than a 20% flinch rate, which 105 speed it just enough to use well.
Controversial:
Hydro Pump - Like Crabhammer, who's going to use Hydro Pump when you have Surf? In most cases, the Power v Accuracy isn't worth it unless you're under the rain. It should be allowed, but IMO it won't see much use.
Superpower - Superpower should also be allowed, as it cannot OHKO or 2HKO Blissey or Snorlax. While it does get SE hits on quite a lot of pokemon, the penalty for using it justifies the use.
Cross Chop - I'm not sure on this one.
Bug Buzz/X-Scissor - Bug Buzz and X-Scissor are definite no-goes for me. Both hit Celebi for heavy damage, so Celebi won't be a counter anymore. It does, however, hit a plethora of part-Psychics for good damage...
Other:
U-Turn - U-Turn should be allowed for reasons other have said. It will allow tons of switching, keep momentum, to switch out of the counter of the counter to the counter of the counter to the counter.
I really don't think we should give cap 10 charge beam. With absolutely gigantic substitutes and ok special attack, cap 10 may become the set up sweeper of doom. Sure it requires some luck, but once cap 10 is set up the opponent is in trouble. To make matters worse everyone knows how great water type neutral coverage is, and water types can be charge beamed. Water ground types not named quagsire can just be surfed. Yes this set has counters, but I think it'll do this better than countering stuff. Superpower is fine as it requires proper prediction to be used effectively. Bug Buzz/X Scissor is fine, it nails celebi and ludicolo hard, but other than that, it's not very effective. Hydro pump is fine, if a bit unnecessary. No harm in having it. Aqua Tail and Crab Hammer are ok. Not many people will use them but still they are good.
I'd like to bring up a new if a bit weird idea. Flame Wheel is something I would like to see on Cap 10. It allows cap 10 to nail scizor hard on physical sets. It will do double what waterfall would have roughly and could help. On special sets though it will be outclassed by hp fire but I think it allows more versatility. Just like bug buzz it does not have many uses but it is useful to have. The only thing that prevents cap 10 from countering almost anything is 4 move slot syndrome. Moveslots are valuable but I doubt many will put moves like flame wheel or bug buzz into them.
For reference purposes, I'm going to re-post my calculations from the Counters discussion, as they play a huge part in this particular discussion about attacks:
KEY:
BOLD means which set works best. UNDERLINEmeans it is the best choice out of two due to moveset uncertainty. ALL SETS means Physical, Special, and the appropriate Defensive set.
Abomasnow: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's HP Fire: 105.9% - 124.6% CAP10's Ice Beam: 35.5% - 42.1% (almost always a 2HKO after SR)
Notes: With HP Fire, Abomasnow is no threat to CAP10 whatsoever. Without it, it still has to watch out switching into an Ice Beam, or else it can be 2HKO'd by SR and another Ice Beam. However, it's a fairly safe switch-in sans HP Fire and can hit hard with Wood Hammer, which not a whole lot of Pokemon can talk about verses CAP10. Verdict: Soft Check without HP Fire, not a threat with HP Fire.
Aerodactyl: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
No offensive calculations are needed. We know it can dent Aero.
Aero's EQ vs Physical/Special: 55.1% - 65% (2HKO) Aero's EQ vs Defensive: 32.8% - 38.7% (3HKO, 4HKO with Lefties)
Notes: Unless CAP10 is used as a lead or SR isn't up, don't expect Focus Sash to be still intact.
Azelf: Best Handled By: ALL SETS (Special does most damage)
CAP10's Superpower: 76.4% - 90.1% (unable to OHKO most of the time with SR down. Cannot 2HKO after the -1 Attack drop if Wish/Protect or Softboiled on the attacking turn.)
Notes: Unimpressive, to say the least. However, this can be addressed by simply giving CAP10 Cross Chop over Superpower. This will always 2HKO Blissey. Blissey should not be a complete counter to every single CAP10 moveset at all. If not, CAP10 cannot take on full health Blissey on its own. Thus, it cannot fulfill its role as a Utility Counter. Verdict: Counter to all sets if Superpower is chosen, Counter to only Special sets if Cross Chop is available for the Physical set.
Breloom: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
Notes: There is no way, no how, that Breloom is even a check to CAP10 unless CAP10 switches directly into one. Which should never happen in the first place. Verdict: No threat to CAP10.
Bronzong: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE
No calculations from either side here. Just notes on what will happen.
Notes: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Bronzong will be the ultimate draw to CAP10. CAP10 can't do anything to Bronzong on the attacking spectrum. Not even Fire Blast can 3HKO it. However, thanks to Trace and Defensive investment, the standard Bronzong can't do anything in return. Those who run EQ and Gyro Ball are pretty much useless, as CAP10 Traces Levitate and 4x resists Gyro Ball. If it carries Explosion, both Pokes die without much gain or loss on either side, except perhaps SR for your opponent's Bronzong. The only thing CAP10 has to fear here is a possible Hypnosis, and this is only threatening if your opponent hasn't put another one of your Pokes to sleep or, you know, actually has it on its moveset. Verdict: Draw on both sides. Neither can do anything worthwhile to each other.
Celebi: Best Handled By: ALL SETS (perhaps PHYSICAL)
Special CAP10's Ice Beam vs. Defensive Celebi: 49.5% - 58.4% (2HKO) Special CAP10's HP Bug vs. Defensive Celebi: 73.3% - 87.1% Special CAP10's HP Bug vs. Offensive (Specs) Celebi: 86.5% - 102.9% (OHKO most times after Rocks) Physical CAP10's X-Scissor vs. Defensive Celebi: 62.4% - 74.3% (theoretical) Physical CAP10's X-Scissor vs. Offensive (Specs) Celebi: 99.4% - 118.1% (theoretical) Defensive Celebi's Leaf Storm vs. Special CAP10: 87.1% - 102.9% Defensive Celebi's Leaf Storm vs. Sp. Defensive CAP10: 52.2% - 61.7%, 26.5% - 31.2% (3HKO)
Notes: CAP10 has a lot of potential sets it can run, so there's a lot of calculations I did. Basically, it boils down to this: CAP10 can beat almost every Celebi. With a Bug move, it gets even easier. Celebi cannot easily switch into CAP10 for fear of Ice Beam, which 2HKO's after Rocks. HP Bug also 2HKO's Celebi after Rocks, and OHKO's Offensive Celebi after Rocks. Another useful thing: Scarf Celebi does not OHKO CAP10 with Leaf Storm. X-Scissor may be chosen for this very reason, scoring the same KO's for a Physical set. However, like Abomasnow, it can switch in on CAP10's STABs and hit back hard. Verdict: Celebi is just a check to CAP10, due to Ice Beam and a possible Bug move.
Cresselia: Best Handled By: (SP.) DEFENSIVE
No calculations here. Both can't do jack to each other with the standard movesets.
Notes: This is similar to the Bronzong situation, although Cresselia is a little bit more dangerous. I would say that Cresselia is more of a check to CAP10 than a draw, like Bronzong, thanks to common movesets that include Reflect and TWave, as well as the increased possibility of Charge Beam or Calm Mind sets. Taunt/Encore would shut her down, though, which is a possibility. Verdict: Good Check to CAP10overall.e3 Dragonite: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE
CAP10's Ice Beam vs. BulkyDDNite (Lefties): 62.3% - 73.9%
CAP10's Ice Beam vs. BulkyDDNite (Expert Belt): 74.7% - 88.7% (OHKO after Rocks) DDNite's +1 EQ vs. CAP10: 56.5% - 66.8% (2HKO)
Dusknoir: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE
Dusknoir's EQ vs. CAP10: 25.7% - 30.4%
Notes: HALP ME! HALP ME! Because of Pain Split, Dusknoir has become one of CAP10's true counter, since my original movesets don't have any Dark or Ghost attacks in play. Without Taunt, Sub+Charge Beam, or any of these kind of moves, Dusknoir will win. Every time. While this sounds okay, we must consider whether we want something that can so easily counter every one of CAP10's assumed movesets. In my opinion, we cannot have this hard of a counter if CAP10 is going to do its job correctly. If we have something like this hard of a counter, CAP10 can simply be played around through switching. A Blissey/Dusknoir team would almost completely wall all CAP10 as well. Verdict: The way it currently stands, Dusknoir is a huge Counter. Nearly unbeatable unless we solve this through the move selection.
Electivire: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
Physical CAP10's Earthquake: 112% - 132%
Special CAP10's Surf: 58.8% - 69.4% Physical Electivire's EQ vs Physical/Special CAP10: 80.1% - 94.8%
Empoleon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP's Thunderbolt: 94.9% - 112.2%
Flygon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND DEFENSIVE
Special CAP10's Ice Beam: 157.6% - 186.8% Defensive CAP10's Ice Beam: 121.9% - 144.4% ScarfGon's EQ vs. Special CAP10: 79.9% - 93.9%
Forretress: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
Special CAP10's HP Fire: 125.4% - 148%
Special CAP10's Surf: 63.8% - 75.4%
Gengar: Best Handled By: SP. DEFENSIVE
CAP10's Surf(Lefties): 42.9% - 51% (2HKO after Rocks) Gengar's Shadow Ball vs. CAP10: 29.6% - 35% (4HKO)
Gliscor: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's ThunderBolt vs. DDGyara: 106.3% - 126.9% CAP10's ThunderBolt vs. RestTalk Gyara: 89.6% - 106.9%
Heatran: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
Sp. Defensive CAP10's Surf: 57.6% - 68.7% Special CAP10's Surf: 97.2% - 115.2%
Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 74.9% - 89.2% Physical CAP10's EQ: 125.1% - 147.4%
Heracross: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE AND SPECIAL
Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 51.8% - 61.1% Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt (-1): 77.7% - 91.7%
Special CAP10's HP Flying: 102.3% - 120.9%
Defensive CAP10's Surf/TBolt (-1): 45.8% - 54.2% (2HKO after Rocks 100% of the time) ScarfCross's Close Combat vs. Special CAP: 60.9% - 71.8%
ScarfCross's Close Combat vs. Defensive CAP: 36.4% - 42.9%
Notes: We have somewhat of a problem here, as ScarfCross can outspeed and 2HKO Special variants with Close Combat. CAP10 will have a hard time switching in because of this. The Defensive set, however, can 2HKO thanks to the Sp. Defense drops CC causes. To directly counter it with the Special set, one must either have HP Flying and not switch into a Close Combat, or have ScarfCAP10. Verdict: Somewhat of a check, or even an easy revenge killer, for the Special set.
Hippowdon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's Surf: 124.8% - 147.1%
Honchkrow: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
Defensive CAP10's ThunderBolt: 86.5% - 102.3% (OHKO after SR) Special CAP10's ThunderBolt: 147.4% - 173.7% Physical CAP10's ThunderPunch: 117.5% - 138.6%
Infernape: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
Defensive CAP10's Surf: 88.7% - 105.1% (OHKO after SR) Special CAP10's Surf: 150.2% - 178.2% Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 114.7% - 135.2%
Jirachi: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
Notes: CM Jirachi will be the bane of Special sets. However, with Earthquake, Jirachi can be defeated. Without it, there is little to no hope except by a Critical Hit. Verdict: Counter to CAP10 if CAP10 does not receive EQ. Counter to Special sets only if CAP10 does get EQ.
Jolteon: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
Notes: Once again, we're going to need Earthquake on this one. Earth Power doesn't OHKO, and Jolteon will 2HKO you first. Special Defensive versions are 3HKO'd by TBolt, whereas their Surf cannot 2HKO. Verdict: Like Jirachi, Jolteon is a counter to all sets unless CAP10 can pack Earthquake.
Kingdra: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE
+1 LO Kingdra Outrage vs. Defensive CAP10: 58.3% - 68.8% +1 Lefties Kingdra Outrage vs. Defensive CAP10: 45.1% - 53% CAP10's TBolt: 31.8% - 37.3%
Notes: Uh oh. This is not a good situation for CAP10 at all. Only the Defensive variant can survive any kind of attack Kingdra has, and if it's LO, CAP10 is 2HKO'd. Meanwhile, CAP10 can only manage a 3HKO either way, if it gets lucky. It's a 4HKO on the Lefties version. The only plausable way we can deal with this is to give it Dragon Pulse, but even then, it is not really beaten. CAP10 can at least weaken it, though. TWave might also help, but Sub variants and those with a Lum Berry can easily work around that. Verdict: Kingdra is essentially the only Dragon Dancer that is a counter to CAP10 fully. There is little to no way of stopping it with CAP10 currently.
Notes: CAP10 cannot switch into CM Latias, unfortunately, as two +1 Dragon Pulses will 2HKO. However, if one switches into CAP10 or doesn't Calm Mind, CAP10 can beat it this way. Note that giving it Payback might be a good idea, as after Stealth Rock damage, it can essentially OHKO Latias. Ice Punch does 2HKO, though. Verdict: Like all CM'ers so far, counter to Special variants. Counter to Physical CAP10 if CAP10 switches in on a CM boost.
Lucario: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
CAP10's EQ/Cross Chop: 100.4% - 118.1%
Lucario's +2 ExtremeSpeed vs. CAP10: 64.3% - 75.8%
Machamp: Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND DEFENSIVE
Special CAP10's Surf/Tbolt: 44.6% - 52.7% Defensive CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 26.6% - 31.3% Machamp's DPunch vs. Special CAP10: 52.1% - 61.6% Machamp's DPunch vs. Defensive CAP10: 31.4% - 37%
Notes: This match-up is tricky. On the Special set, even with SR, a 2HKO is not guaranteed with Surf, and Machamp hits for a 2HKO every time. On the Defensive set, Machamp can be stalled out with Rest and continuous Surfs at least, so it's of little concern. While Magic Guard helps with Confusion damage, the Confusion will still be annoying for CAP10. I personally would support the addition of either Psychic or Air Slash on the movepool. Psychic is more or less a situational move anyway,so it's not overpowering, but Air Slash would be a good alternative over just using HP Flying for Heracross/Breloom, so it wouldn't be a bad idea either. Brave Bird on a Physical set would nearly OHKO, guaranteed if one layer of Spikes is down, which seems a little overpowered with Magic Guard. Verdict: Based off of my movesets, Machamp checks Physical and Special sets somewhat, but is no threat to the Defensive set.
Magnezone: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
Physical CAP10's EQ: 116% - 137% Special CAP10's Surf: 50% - 59.3%
SpecsZone's TBolt vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 74% - 87.4%
Mamoswine: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
Notes: If Mamo comes in on a TBolt, Mamo can check (assuming that people will Scarf it and CAP10 isn't holding a Shuca) and essentially OHKO CAP10. However, there isn't much else Mamo can do if it isn't Scarved. Verdict: CSMamo is a check if it switches in on TBolt. Anything else is not a threat.
Metagross: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL
Physical CAP10's EQ: 46.7% - 54.9% (2HKO after Rocks) Special CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 49.2% - 58.4% LeadGross' EQ vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 71.3% - 84% Agiligross' EQ vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 93% - 109.7%
Notes: This is the first time so far where CAP10 would greatly benefit from having Magnet rise in order to fully beat a threat. It's possible without it, but it sure is hard.
Ninjask: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
No calculations are needed. We know Ninjask is frail, and can't offensively do much to CAP10.
Notes: While Ninjask is usually "lol" for most people, it does bring up the fact that Ninjask might actually be able to set up on CAP10 quite easily, unless we give it something like Encore or Haze. As a Pokemon, Ninjask is no threat. As a BP machine, we need a way to stop it.
Porygon-Z: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL
Physical CAP10's Cross Chop: 91.7% - 108.3% (OHKO after SR) Special CAP10's Surf: 60.8% - 71.7% Timid SpecsPZ's Adaptability Tri-Attack vs. Physical/Special CAP10: 77.7% - 91.6%
Roserade: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
Notes: If Focus Sash is intact (doubtful unless CAP10 is a lead), Roserade can OHKO with Leaf Storm while surviving an attack. Other than that, not too bad. Verdict: Not a threat.
Rotom-C (and friends): Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND SP. DEFENSIVE
Special CAP10's Surf vs. Standard Rotom-C: 46.4% - 54.6% (2HKO after Rocks)
Sp. Defensive CAP10's Surf vs. Standard Rotom-C: 27.6% - 32.6% Standard Rotom-C's Leaf Storm vs. Special CAP10: 60.9% - 71.8% Standard Rotom-C's Leaf Storm vs. Sp. Defensive CAP10: 36% - 42.7%
Notes: The Standard Rotom-C's set is not an issue for CAP10, as it will either 2HKO Rotom first or take little to no damage from continuous Leaf Storms + Rest/Recovery. However, imagine Pain Split Rotom-C: now THAT's a threat. Luckily, Rotom isn't common in the CAP metagame, and is pretty much Pursuit bait in the OU metagame as it is, unlike the bulky Dusknoir. All other forms of Rotom pose little to no threat to CAP10. Verdict: Pain Split versions of Rotom-C will be huge checks to CAP10 itself.
Salamence: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE
Lefties CAP10's Ice Beam (DDMence/MixMence): 95.5% - 113.6% Lefties CAP10's Ice Beam (Bulky): 72.1% - 85.3% (OHKO most times after SR) Salamence's EQ vs. CAP10: 49.8% - 58.9% Salamence's Outrage vs. CAP10: 45.1% - 53%
Scizor: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's HP Fire: 103.8% - 122.4% CAP10's Surf/TBolt: 51.9% - 61.5% CBScizor's U-Turn: 54.9% - 64.6% +2 SDScizor's Bullet Punch: 20.3% - 23.9%
Shaymin: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
Notes: Essentially, Shaymin does a better job at checking CAP10 than Celebi. This is because of the lack of a 4x weakness and access to Seed Flare. With that being said, Support Shaymin is still defeated 100% of the time by CAP10. Seed Flare LO sets and Specs sets, though, walk all over CAP10 unless Shaymin walks right into an Ice Beam. Verdict: Offensive variants check (close to countering fully) CAP10 unless there is good prediction. Kind of excited that Shaymin might get more usage, though. Very underrated.
Skarmory: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's ThunderBolt (Specially Defensive): 88.6% - 104.8% (OHKO after Rocks) CAP10's ThunderBolt (All Others): 120.4% - 141.9%
Smeargle: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
No calcs needed. We know Smeargle is weak, and virtually cannot attack CAP10 directly.
Snorlax: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
CAP10's Cross Chop vs. Curselax: 50.5% - 59.6%, 33.8% - 40.2% (possible 2HKO after Rocks)
CurseLax's +1 Return vs. CAP10: 51.7% - 61.2%
Notes: Not as bad as I thought, actually. Cross Chop guarantees a 3HKO against Curselax, and results in a 2HKO some times just by having Rocks up, preventing CurseLax from Resting on the second turn. However, CAP10 cannot beat CurseLax if it switches into a Curse. Things also get harder if CurseLax avoids the 2HKO and Rests. CAP10 cannot respond in any way if this happens Verdict: Counter to CAP10 if CAP10 switches into a Curse. However, not bad if Snorlax switches into CAP10.
Staraptor: Best Handled By: DEFENSIVE
CAP10's TBolt: 98.1% - 116% CBStaraptor's -1 Close Combat: 23.5% - 27.9% CSStaraptor's -1 Close Combat: 15.6% - 18.6%
Starmie: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's ThunderBolt: 130.5% - 154.2% SpecsStarmie's TBolt: 37.5% - 44.2%
SpecsStarrmie's Psychic: 53.5% - 63%
Suicune: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
Notes: Another one where it's much better than people anticipated. The big deal here is that CAP10 can beat Suicune, while not letting Suicune do much to it unless it carries HP Electric. However, like Snorlax, this becomes much harder if CAP10 switches into a Calm Mind + Rest version. Verdict: Soft check to CAP10 if CAP10 switches into it.
Swampert: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's HP Grass: 80.2% - 95% MixPert's EQ vs. CAP10: 68.2% - 80.4%
Notes: Having CAP10 use HP Grass for Swampert isn't a terrible idea. However, I feel that CAP10 shouldn't be hit so hard by a 4x weak Pokemon when it's holding a 4x weak move. Therefore, I support at least Grass Knot to be on CAP10. Verdict: Check, but it's still beaten, even with HP Grass.
Tentacruel: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL
Physical CAP10's EQ: 69.8% - 82.4% Special CAP10's ThunderBolt: 57.7% - 68.1%
Togekiss: Best Handled By: SPECIAL AND PHYSICAL
Special CAP10's TBolt: 71.1% - 84% (OHKO after Rocks) Physical CAP10's TPunch: 66.3% - 78.6% (slight OHKO after Rocks)
Tyranitar: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL
Notes: Here's something interesting: a DDTar, at +1, shouldn't outspeed CAP10. That means CAP10 can OHKO with Cross Chop without having to worry about taking damage. However, this also pretty much solidifies the "4x rule" I have, making a Fighting move essential on CAP10. Verdict: With a Fighting move, TTar is no threat to CAP10.
Vaporeon: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
CAP10's ThunderBolt: 69.6% - 82.1%
Weavile: Best Handled By: PHYSICAL AND SPECIAL
We know Cross Chop will OHKO. Physical CAP10's Waterfall: 62.2% - 73.5% Special CAP10's Surf: 58.8% - 69.4%
Yanmega: Best Handled By: ALL SETS
Special CAP10's ThunderBolt: 151.4% - 178.9% Physical CAP10's TPunch: 75.4% - 90.1% Sp. Defensive CAP10's ThunderBolt: 90.1% - 106.1%
Zapdos: Best Handled By: SPECIAL
Notes: Not as bad as we thought, as long as we have Ice Beam. All of these calculations against Zapdos are 2HKO's with Rocks down. Surf/TBolt + Ice Beam on all sets minus Specially Defensive will 2HKO, meaning Zapdos can't switch in. The only way Zapdos will do anything is if CAP10 switches into an offensive TBolt or into a Zapdos who has used Substitute. Verdict: Easily beatable with Ice Beam. Only a check when under a Sub or if CAP10 switches into a TBolt on Offensive versions.
If you're wondering, these were the stat spreads I used:
CAP10 @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spe
Jolly
Moveset:
- Waterfall (STAB)
- ThunderPunch (STAB. TPunch is the most conservative choice at the moment. I'm not doing Volt Tackle.)
- Ice Punch (BoltBeam coverage, although EQ
- Superpower/Earthquake
AND
CAP10 @ Life Orb
Magic Guard
252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
Timid
Moveset:
- Surf (STAB)
- Thunderbolt (STAB)
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power (Grass, Flying, and Fire seem to be the best choices so far. A lot of people are forgetting Scizor, after all. Bug is a decent choice as well. We should consider these three types especially when moves are being decided.)
Defensively, we should be looking at this set, to provide maximum bulk for calculations and such.
CAP10 @ Leftovers (or there are other possible choices, like Expert Belt, Lum Berry, and such.)
Trace
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
Bold
Moveset:
- Surf (STAB)
- Thunderbolt (STAB)
- Ice Beam
- Rest (or a Recovery move if CAP10 were to get one. It will get Rest, no doubt.)
Or that same moveset, with Calm + 252 SpD EV's instead of Def.
Keep in mind that, based on what is allowed already, these are CAP10's major counters already based on move pools alone: Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, Shaymin, Jirachi, and Kingdra are immediate counters to all sets, and Swampert,Bronzong, Machamp, Abomasnow, Celebi, Snorlax, Blissey, and Rotom-C are checks to most sets.
About the Moves Mentioned Pending/Controversial:
Flamethrower: I personally would like to see CAP10 get Flamethrower, simply as an alternative to HP Fire. We must remember that HP Fire gets the OHKO's it needs on Scizor, Forretress, and Abomasnow, so we're not gaining any uneccesary OHKO's there. Hitting Grass types is a moot point, as Ice Beam does this already with the same BP. The only Grass type that takes Ice neutrally is Abomasnow (to my knowlege), who is OHKO'd by HP Fire anyway. Flamethrower does not score any unnecessary OHKO's or scores huge damage on potential counters. In fact, the only OHKO it scores that HP Fire cannot is on Weavile (after SR, keep in mind), who isn't a threat to CAP10 anyway. Heck, it doesn't even OHKO Lucario. It certainly isn't overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. The only question is that do we want CAP10 to gain a Fire move AND Hidden Power? To me, that sounds like a potential FMSS problem, which is exactly what we need for CAP10. Giving up BoltBeam + Surf coverage for Flamethrower seems like a bad idea in the first place. Yes.
Fire Blast: This is going too overboard, on the other hand, as now it has the ability to mess with Bronzong, its ultimate Check, as well as letting Special CAP10 OHKO Lucario. I think Flamethrower is the safer option. No.
Charge Beam: This move is really hard to talk about currently, as the real discussion should be about Substitute + Charge Beam, allowing it to beat Dusknoir and standard Cresselia. However, as a move itself, I don't believe it's too broken. Not only is there a chance for the boost not to happen, it also has middling accuracy. And a +1 CAP10 is nothing to fear, really, as it doesn't gain a lot of OHKO's this way. Still, I really don't like the idea of letting someone give CAP10 any kind of boosts offensively, as it still has potential to become a sweeper. Abstaining from my decision until we have a Substitute + Charge Beam discussion.
Earthquake: Absolutely. Earthquake is 100% necessary if it wishes to counter SpecsJolteon, Electivire, Magnezone (Magic Guard only), and Lucario. Without it, CAP10 loses to SpecsJolteon (HP Grass is a 2HKO) and Electivire (most will now run EQ) almost every single time, and both have actually decent Special Defense. Also note that Earthquake is a situational move, as in reality, most other Pokemon are hit harder by its Stabs + Ice attacks, save for Heatran. Earth Power, in contrast, does not score OHKO's on these Pokemon, which means CAP10 loses. It's not broken. It's not overpowering. 100% needed, in my opinion.
Crabhammer: Hold on a second, to all of the Crabhammer supporters. There's actually a huge problem with Crabhammer, according to calculations. I'll list a few: it 2HKO's Blissey after SR damage if it switches in (which will happen a lot, as many people will run Special CAP initially). It OHKO's Tyranitar if just one layer of Spikes are out. It easily 3HKO's potential CurseLax switch-ins after SR damage, even if it Curses on the second turn. Many people will argue that Cross Chop does the same, if not more, but there is a bigger point to be made: CAP10 will now be able to deal with walls just by using its STAB move, freeing up a move slot for something that makes CAP10 cover a huge amount of Pokemon. A set of Crabhammer/TPunch/Ice Punch/Earthquake will now hit a huge amount of Pokemon for OHKO's/2HKO's, possibly a majority of the OU metagame. Waterfall doesn't get even close to these kinds of numbers. Do we want this kind of coverage on CAP10, who is not a wall breaker? I think not. I do not approve.
Hydro Pump: Please go to the Counters discussion if you want to see the full discussion on why Hydro Pump is not necessary. The TL;DR version, though: Hydro Pump will not be broken, but it is absolutely not necessary to score any extra OHKO's except on Weavile and Porygon-Z or 2HKO's except on Swampert and Machamp (Zapdos is 2HKO'd by Ice Beam). I say no.
Cross Chop: I believe CAP10 needs a Fighting move, and Cross Chop is the least overpowered, yet effective, move to do it with. It 2HKO's Blissey and Snorlax, and OHKO's TTar while taking up one of four of CAP10's moveslots. Unlike Superpower, though, it is guaranteed these 2HKO's instead of being walled by something it intends to counter. Blissey and Snorlax might be labeled as initial counters to CAP10, but what if I want my CAP10 to counter Snorlax and Blissey, who are in a separate category than most other Pokes, seeing as though a Fighting move is virtually necessary to just 2HKO? CAP10 pretty much needs Cross Chop.
Superpower: This is an extremely underwhelming move on CAP10 in terms of Blissey and Snorlax. However, Deck Knight made a good point in saying that Superpower does have more initial power if both this and Cross Chop were to make it. No to Superpower by itself, but it's not a terrible idea to add it if Cross Chop is chosen.
Bug Buzz: If this is chosen, this will make all the pro-Counter Celebi supporters cry. (Just kidding, just kidding.) Seriously, though, I see a Bug move as nothing more than a situational move designed to take out Celebi, and perhaps Shaymin (although Ice Beam works better). There is little to nothing else outside of these guys to warrant the use of Bug Buzz. This is a good thing: it wastes a move slot on CAP10, once again reducing the amount of Pokemon it can counter at one time to a respectable level. Unless someone can give me a calculation where Bug Buzz really comes in handy for threats outside of Celebi (and aren't hit for more damage by Surf/TBolt/Ice Beam or the Physical set), then go on ahead. Yes.
X-Scissor: See: Bug Buzz, although combining both would make all variants of CAP10 be able to counter Celebi somewhat as well as hit TTar harder (although Waterfall does a better job). That also means increased FMSS, though. As a negative, X-Scissor is more underwhelming than Bug Buzz. Yes, but not in conjunction with Bug Buzz.
More Moves to Consider:
Psychic: This is the epitome of a situational move, as this really gives CAP10 a choice to 2HKO Machamp and somewhat deal with Heracross/Breloom without the use of HP Flying. That's about all its uses, though. It doesn't OHKO any of these threats, keep in mind, but more or less reduces the threat. I don't see why Machamp should be such a threat to CAP10, but with the initial movesets (even with HP Flying), it actually is. Outside of this, it has virtually no use, meaning CAP10 can't take advantage of it. Please consider adding Psychic to the movepool.
Air Slash: This has all of the merits of Psychic, but hits Breloom and Heracross for OHKO's without the need for HP Flying (which still gets the job done anyway). This essentially just makes the job easier for CAP10 to take on these three individual Pokes than Psychic. The only other benefit this gets outside of these three is the ability to hit Abomasnow for a 2HKO. All other Grass types are hit for more damage by Ice Beam. Please consider adding Air Slash to the movepool.
EDIT: I'm going to copy paste my new opinion on Recoil moves here as well, from the Counters discussion page.
Volt Tackle can't happen, since it 2HKO's Blissey and Snorlax while still giving it a movelslot left. See: Crabhammer.
Brave Bird is a big no-no. It counters CAP10's threats way too easily, like Machamp and Shaymin, which is not wanted.
Double Edge seems pointless because of CAP10's low attack stat, and many of CAP10's moves rely on Super Effective damage. Good neutral coverage doesn't make up for the fact that it can't hurt anything harder than its STABs, and Double Edge has no real countering purposes whatsoever.
Wood Hammer is now a moot point, seeing as though Grass moves are not allowed.
I think Leaf Storm should be disallowed because it basically would be a powered-up Energy Ball/Grass Knot.
I also think All Fighting Atacks (except Brick Break) and all Fire Attacks not named Hidden Power should be banned because they are just too powerful. The same should go for X-Scissor and Bug Buzz. They just counter too much at once. EDIT: @ Rising_Dusk: In conjunction with the others (and they don't do too badly against: Shaymin, Abomosnow, Alakazam).
However, U-Turn not only is likely viable, but would add a new depth to "utility counter" by letting you swap to a counter to whatever your opponent sends out against your Utility Counter. As such, it should be under "allowed".
Brick Break is specifically to counter Snorlax and Blissey: Give it a +Attack Nature/Attack boosting move, and it should work. As such, I suggest that it be allowed.
I've been thinking about Double-Edge. Adding this to CAP10's movepool would give it perfect neutral coverage on everything short of Shedinja. What's more, it has no recoil, thanks to Magic Guard. I don't see it as too powerful though, given CAP10's mediocre attack, and no STAB means it doesn't really outdamage Return by a great deal. Anybody else got an opinion on this? I can't run calcs at the moment.
I fail to see how X-Scissor is controversial at all.
It gives CAP10 a very viable coverage move with which to hit the likes of Latias, Celebi, Azelf, Roserade and Weavile with. Three out of five of the previously mentioned have a weaker Defense than they do Special Defence, and four out of five of them are offensive threats which CAP10 should be able to be customized to counter.
Payback is the optimal option against both Latias and Azelf (they're faster than CAP10) as it deals more damage to both, Superpower covers Weavile, and Roserade/Weavile both get annihilated by Overheat (Ice Beam for Roserade if you want) without significant investment.
Aura Guardian said:
I think Leaf Storm should be disallowed because it basically would be a powered-up Energy Ball/Grass Knot.
Leaf Storm is something I thought long and hard about, but eventually came up with disallowing. Leaf Storm is largely redundant coverage with the Electric-type attack that CAP10 gets as a STAB, except it nails Swampert and Lanturn super effectively. As these two 'mons are not offensive threats and should actually check CAP10, I'm going to push and agree that Leaf Storm should be absent from CAP10's movepool.
Aura Guardian said:
The same should go for X-Scissor and Bug Buzz. They just counter too much at once.
Just to let you know, these moves have no use except against Celebi. It is largely redundant coverage with the other moves CAP10 can and should have, and as I want to see Celebi be a great check, I agree that they should be disallowed. Just clarifying that they don't "counter too much at once."
DrkSlay said:
The only Grass type that takes Ice neutrally is Abomasnow (to my knowlege), who is OHKO'd by HP Fire anyway.
There is Ludicolo, but Thunderbolt's your best option there.
reachzero said:
With regard to Volt Tackle, I would like to see it as an event move connected to Trace, since I believe it would be too powerful with Magic Guard, but acceptable with Trace. Volt Tackle would help a lot against Crocune, so it should be useful in certain situations.
Absolutely agreeing with Reach here. Volt Tackle should be allowed, just not with Magic Guard.
Only one other comment I wanted to make..
reachzero said:
Fire Blast +Flamethrower -- I feel that CAP10 has no real reason to get a Fire move other than Hidden Power. Since Fire is redundant with Electric or Ice against pretty much everything except Magnezone or Abomasnow, neither of which is a major threat and one of which is actually expected to counter CAP10 (Abomasnow is the best CAP10 counter!), having a Fire move won't really help CAP10 with countering anything. I am strongly against CAP10 learning a Fire move other than Hidden Power.
I agree with no Flamethrower or Fire Blast for these reasons, but I definitely think that we should allow Overheat. It is the best one-turn option for Lucario and Metagross over HPFire and even EQ (Gross' defense makes it almost a waste, and Lucario can survive it without major investment), and as such should definitely be considered for being present in CAP10's movepool.
I'd just like to point out Signal Beam as a sort of middle ground for those for and against Celebi as a counter. It really isn't that powerful, hell not that much more powerful than Hidden Power Bug, but it gives CAP10 at least some sort of weapon to use against its foes. Also, there is precedent for it as all Electric-types, I think, thus far have got Signal Beam in their movepools somewhere.
As for controversial moves:
Hydro Pump: I wouldn't go there. It seems that some people are trying to make up for CAP10's disappointing offensive stats with high-powered STAB moves, which is something that seems to point towards a much more offensive approach to countering. I'd personally be quite happy to stall out attackers in the more traditional sense of counter, as allowing CAP10 the potential to out-and-out bludgeon its targets into the ground, with the exception of super effective moves (which won't exist on all movesets so can't be used as an argument) is treading dangerously close to the area of another bulky sweeper/supporter, especially considering its high Speed, Magic Guard + Life Orb, etc. DISALLOWED Superpower: Allowed, I feel. I can't imagine running a mixed set could be all that effective, especially given Cap10's meagre offensive stats. If we are pushed for space on the moveslot besides, I can't see much reason not to add them if only for the sake of being able to take on Blissey and co. to a reasonable extent should it want to. In any case, Superpower can't OHKO without considerable investment, and Blissey can still outstall, and Curselax is still winning regardless. ALLOWED Cross Chop: Disallowed for the simple reason that it has few drawbacks. I think that only one Fighting-type move is necessary, and Superpower wins that matchup for a less potent option, as Cross Chop has few negative side-effects. DISALLOWED Bug Buzz / X-Scissor: I think Signal Beam is quite enough for a Bug-type move. I wouldn't be averse to having them on, however. NEUTRAL
I agree that all Fire Type attacks should be disallowed (except for Hidden Power). They will allow it to hit Grass types, who are supposed to be counters. It already will have Ice Beam to hit them anyway. If it gets a Fire attack, it will also be able to hit Bronzong, another counter. Between the two, I think Flamethrower is not as broken as Fire Blast, but CAP10 shouldn't be allowed either. HP Fire should suffice.
I don't see why Earthquake shouldn't be allowed. It will hit other Electric types, not kill Grass types who counter it, and it won't hit Bronzong either. I think that it needs Earthquake if for no other reason than to counter Lucario. He is a common sweeper, and needs a check from CAP10. Earth Power can also be allowed because it's the option for the special sets. I say allow both.
Superpower and Cross Chop are both too powerful for CAP10 to handle. It is meant to be a counter, not a sweeper. Either one will give it a change to take down Blissey, who can counter special sets. Brick Break is a great idea. It's not too powerful, but still allows for SE hits.
I really don't understand the controversy of Charge Beam. Every Electric type gets it. Yes, if he gets a few boosts he's a great sweeper, but so what? Is CAP10 going to be used only for countering things? He might not be meant for sweeping, but it's still a possibility with his speed and not so bad atk/sp atk. I personally think he should be allowed the move.
I'm having trouble deciding on X-scissor, Bug Buzz, and U-Turn. None are necessary because CAP10 will already have Ice moves for Grass types, and it's not a scout. I don't see many Grass types countering it completely because they don't like eating an Ice Beam. The Bug moves will give it a huge advantage on Celebi. I say disallow the moves, but I'm not extremely opinionated with these moves.
Some people said no to fire moves, but I want to suggestion something. How would you guys feel about Heat Wave? Often considered a lesser Fire Blast/Flamethrower due to it's power/accuracy ratio, but I think it's that power to accuracy ratio that might make it not truly broken on CAP10. What does everyone else think?
Just to let you know, these moves have no use except against Celebi. It is largely redundant coverage with the other moves CAP10 can and should have, and as I want to see Celebi be a great check, I agree that they should be disallowed. Just clarifying that they don't "counter too much at once."
Celebi is already a great check despite the fact it can be 2HKO'd by Ice Beam from this Pokemon. You making sounds like Celebi was a horrible check for CAP10 even in the absent of Bug Buzz. Bug moves other than HP Bug would largely be used on rare occasions due them providing poor coverage. Celebi would still be able to check CAP10 reasonably well even if it had a Bug move not named HP Bug.
Is really shouldn't. Partial because it allows CAP to 2HKO potential counters/checks like Blissey and Snorlax and partial because I hate idea of making it some kind of event move or some other convoluted thing. Best ban it and be done with it.
I'd just like to point out Signal Beam as a sort of middle ground for those for and against Celebi as a check. It really isn't that powerful, hell not that much more powerful than Hidden Power Bug, but it gives CAP10 at least some sort of weapon to use against its foes. Also, there is precedent for it as all Electric-types, I think, thus far have got Signal Beam in their movepools somewhere.
It only really need Earthquake to handle most Steel type as HP Fire OHKO Forrty and Scizor. Bronzong can't really do anything to you so the need to kill it with fire isn't necessary.
Volt Tackle's presence marks an important step for CAP10. It can have a physical electric-type move that's better than the terrible Thunderpunch. Think of how sorely physical variants of CAP10 are going to be outclassed by special variants if Volt Tackle isn't there. It'll not only make physical CAP10 largely viable, it'll allow - as Reach said - to have some means with which we can beat Crocune, who despite being largely defensive, is a massive setup threat to many a team.
Gothic Togekiss said:
Celebi is already a great check despite the fact it can be 2HKO'd by Ice Beam from this Pokemon. You making sounds like Celebi was a horrible check for CAP10 even in the absent of Bug Buzz. Bug moves other than HP Bug would largely be used on rare occasions due them providing poor coverage. Celebi would still be able to check CAP10 reasonably well even if it had a Bug move not named HP Bug.
You misread my entire post, apparently. I've been advocating Celebi as an excellent check for awhile now. It's not a poor check to CAP10, it's a great one, although I'm a little put off by the ability for Ice Beam to 2HKO the thing. Regardless, I think many of us agree that Bug Buzz and X-Scissor are too much for CAP10 and provide no meaningful coverage other than with which to maim Celebi - something that should be a check to CAP10.
Volt Tackle's presence marks an important step for CAP10. It can have a physical electric-type move that's better than the terrible Thunderpunch. Think of how sorely physical variants of CAP10 are going to be outclassed by special variants if Volt Tackle isn't there. It'll not only make physical CAP10 largely viable, it'll allow - as Reach said - to have some means with which we can beat Crocune, who despite being largely defensive, is a massive setup threat to many a team.
You say this as though a pokemon should always be just as viable with all physical attacks as it is with all special attacks. What exactly is wrong with generic physical CAP10 sets being worse than generic special CAP10 sets? As long as the set counters what it's designed to counter, that's all that is needed. Also, you don't have to attack a stat-upper like Crocune in order to be a counter. I'm pretty sure we mentioned several non-attacking moves that CAP10 could utilise to stop stat-uppers from upping their stats. Taunt, Trick, Torment and Roar all come to mind.
You say this as though a pokemon should always be just as viable with all physical attacks as it is with all special attacks. What exactly is wrong with generic physical CAP10 sets being worse than generic special CAP10 sets?
The special and physical variants of CAP10 can and will check and counter different offensive threats. I will not be attacking Metagross with my physical CAP10, and likewise I will not be targeting CM Suicune or CM Jirachi or CM Latias with my special sets. That is why, especially for CAP10, both physical and special sets need to be as equally viable as possible. Period.
Objection said:
I'm pretty sure we mentioned several non-attacking moves that CAP10 could utilise to stop stat-uppers from upping their stats. Taunt, Trick, Torment and Roar all come to mind.
Remember that CAP10 isn't supposed to be a wallbreaker. Things like Taunt more than likely won't be appearing on CAP10's movepool. Finally, Roar won't save you if that CMSuicune is the last Pokemon. Volt Tackle is much more reliable.
Regardless, those moves aren't to be discussed yet. Wait until the appropriate thread before bringing them up.
I'd just like to point out Signal Beam as a sort of middle ground for those for and against Celebi as a counter. It really isn't that powerful, hell not that much more powerful than Hidden Power Bug, but it gives CAP10 at least some sort of weapon to use against its foes. Also, there is precedent for it as all Electric-types, I think, thus far have got Signal Beam in their movepools somewhere.
Signal Beam is on DK's allowed list for Electrics. Does that mean CAP10 gets Signal Beam automatically?
I like the idea of Overheat as the sole Fire move. It gives him a good attack to hit 2x weak Steels like Metagross, Lucario, Bronzong, and Magnezone, while not providing a spammable attack like Fire Blast and Flamethrower.
I also think we should consider Dark and Ghost moves, since CAP10 can be EV'ed to avoid a 2HKO from Specs Gengar. If it could OHKO back, it would be a great counter to Gengar and the other rarer offensive Ghosts. I think Night Slash(edit: it needs Crunch to deal with Gengar effectively) is a good option because it would work well against Gengar but poorly against Rotom-A. Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse could also be options, if countering Rotom-A is something you want to do (Magic Guard would help it in this regard).
And while I support the idea of not letting flavor decide the moves, I do want to point out that Gastly and Wooper have evolutions with arms, and they share their movepools with their evolutions. This has come up every CAP and nobody seems to notice.
Charge Beam should be disallowed. With Charge Beam, CAP10 would be used as a sweeper, and with gigantic Substitutes, a drawback-free LO boost, and 105 base Speed, CAP10 would be a better version of SubCharge Rotom-A. It is even forseeable that a Charge Beam Sweeper set would become CAP10's most common set due to just how good it would be at it.
Flamethrower and Fire Blast should be allowed. Flamethrower would be no better against Grass types than Ice Beam, seeing as they both hit Grass types for Super Effective damage at the same base power. Using Flamethrower over HP Fire for Scizor just means that CAP10 has more EVs to invest in its defenses rather than putting them toward KOing Scizor. The objection to Fire Blast that it would keep Bronzong from checking CAP10 does not hold, because Bronzong cannot even check CAP10 reliably in the first place. Bronzong's Earthquake can't even 3HKO many CAP10 sets.
Bug Buzz and X-Scissor should be allowed. Since Fire and Ice moves are generally more useful on CAP10 against Grass types, Bug Buzz and X-Scissor would only be used for Celebi. Four-moveslot syndrome would keep CAP10 from running them most of the time. All that they would do for CAP10 would be to allow for some "gimmicky" sets designed to beat Celebi, and CAP10 is supposed to be customizable and be a good user of specialized sets.
U-turn, on the other hand, should not be allowed. CAP10 is not supposed to be a scout; it is supposed to be specialized against certain Pokemon and groups of Pokemon. U-turn would also give CAP10 a move to use against Celebi that is more than just a gimmicky specialization, leading to Celebi not being able to check CAP10.
Explosion should be disallowed because of how it turns CAP10 into a Pokemon used to guarantee a single KO against a broad swath of the metagame rather than against certain Pokemon. Explosion would make CAP10 able to check or counter most of the metagame at once with a single move, and that goes against the concept.
Superpower, Brick Break, and Cross Chop should all be allowed. CAP10 should be able to be customized to counter Blissey and Snorlax, but at the cost of lowering a defensive stat to go mixed or using its weaker STAB moves and going physical. Such customization would let CAP10 better be tailored to work against certain groups of Pokemon but not others. As shown in DrkSlay's damage calculations, Superpower and Cross Chop do not guarantee victory against Blissey and Snorlax, especially if Cross Chop misses or Blissey gets a chance to status CAP10. Brick Break would see little use, as it cannot let CAP10 reliably beat either Blissey or Snorlax.
I doubt many people would use Hydro Pump. Again going by DrkSlay's calculations, Hydro Pump does not guarantee many OHKOs and 2HKOs and generally adds to the risk of using CAP10. We do not need to include Hydro Pump, but I would not be against it if it were included.
EDIT:
Volt Tackle should be disallowed. It gives CAP10 a move that can 2HKO Blissey and Snorlax reliably, and is actually higher in power than a Super Effective Brick Break. Even with recoil, Volt Tackle would give CAP10 too much offensive prowess.
Banryu, I sure hope you're trolling. Flavor and precedent have NO bearing on what can get into a CAPmon's movepool. Supporting or not supporting a move based on what a CAPmon looks like it can physically execute is ignoring that the artistic aspects of a CAPmon are secondary to its competitive aspects.
That said, it just occurred to me that perhaps Stone Edge should be included. Since Thunderpunch doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) and Volt Tackle should be disallowed for the above reasons, Stone Edge will give it a way to hit most of the things that Electric normally hits (albeit, of course, without STAB). And if we give it Earthquake, then it can use Stone Edge with EQ for coverage (because I agree with you, Dusk, that we need to make its movepool equally viable on both spectrums). However, I don't see how it should be getting any usable phsyical Electric STAB, unfortunately. Thunder Fang is about the best it's gonna get, far as I'm concerned.
A set like Waterfall+EQ / Cross Chop+Stone Edge+(filler) sounds decent / viable to me, even if you're skipping the physical electric STAB.
-EDIT- Aqua Jet also just occurred to me as a possible revenge-killing move, or as a way to fully assure Aerodactyl (or other Sash lead)'s uselessness. Didn't want to double-post, but I just thought I'd throw this out there as well.
Fire Blast/Flamethrower: I honestly do not see the potential from a fire attack on this CAP. While it's electric typing supports a Fire move, It honestly isn't necessary. Fire hits Grass for SE but so does Ice Beam. Fire hits Bug SE but how many bugs are in OU? HP Fire From lowest possible Special Attack (Neutral nature, no EVs) from CAP10 on SD Scizor: 73.8% - 87.9%. With EVs, A Life Orb and positive nature, HP Fire is a 1HKO. Thus, making Flamethrower and Fireblast obsolete. Celebi is still hit just as hard from Ice Beam. Jirachi is still hit very hard from Surf and Thunderbolt. I honestly see no reason to have these 2 moves other than flavor.
Charge Beam: I support this ability. It goes with the theme of the CAP and with the theme of the art design (Support material shows the cap firing a beam out of it's antennea) I highly doubt this move would receive much support. With only 83 Special Attack, It's not going to do much unless CAP10 is specifically designed to use it, and considering how much CAP10 will be switching in and out, the bonus wouldn't last long.
Earthquake: I see no reason to give this over used move to this CAP. What is it going to hit? More importantly, why would you use it? To hit Metagross? Possibly Tyranitar? Who you hit for SE anyway from Surf/Waterfall (And have higher base power due to STAB). I do not forsee this move becoming very useful. I guess hitting Lucario hard is a plus. But I'd actually like to see some pokemon be able to switch into CAP10 without having a heart attack. If CAP10 has the movepool diversity of Mew (Over exaggeration, I know), then nothing is safe to switch in. Coverage is great and all, But I honestly do not see the point in giving -another- CAP the almighty Earthquake. I wish we were more creative than this.
Crabhammer: I like this move. It'll never be used over Waterfall but it's a nice flavor move. I mean, come on! It's a shrimp. Flavor is nice. I was going to put Crabhammer in the movepool as an egg move for fun.
Controversial
Hydro Pump: I am against Hydro Pump. Hydro Pump from a Life Orb +Nature 252 Special attack does 122.6% - 144.9% to LO heatran. Surf does 96.6% - 113.9%. Assuming the CAP didn’t have life orb and was using a defensive spread of 252/252 HP/Special Defense and neutral nature, Hydro Pump would do 65.6% - 78%, Surf would do 52% - 61.3%. Thus, on a defensive CAP10, both Hydro Pump and Surf are 2HKO, making Surf the better option no matter what. On an Offensive CAP10, Surf is still the better option as it still 1HKO’s (With stealth rock). Hydro Pump is either Overkill or it’s not providing enough power in this situation to warrant use over Surf. Of course, this is 1 situation, but it's a fair example. I also feel that this CAP is more Electric. Why must all Water pokemon have Hydro Pump? I'd really like to stress the Electric nature of this CAP over the Water nature.
Superpower: In all honesty, I'm indifferent to Superpower. But I don't like the feel of it. I'd much rather have Cross Chop as an Egg move. A Powerful Fighting move like this warrants mixsweeping, something I'd hope CAP10 wouldn't be able to do very effectively.
Cross Chop: I much prefer this move over Superpower. Lower Accuracy and low PP is a good trade off to have if the CAP is used as a mixsweeper.
Bug Buzz X-Scissor: At first, I liked the idea of X-scissor/BB but now I'm scared of this CAP becoming a sure fire Celebi killer. Celebi should be a major threat to this CAP if the CAP is not prepared. Thunder Wave and Leech Seed are the bane of this CAP, and I don't want this CAP becoming too powerful and able to handle every single thing in existance. Weaknesses are good and natural, and Celebi I feel will be one of the few weaknesses this CAP has.
Grass Knot Energy Ball: I don't like them. I'm glad they are disallowed.
--- Suggestions to contemplate:
Aqua Jet: A strong possibility. with 105 Speed, a priority move isn't that great. But against anything faster, it gives a form of revenge killing at the finest degree. a Base 40(+20) power move isn't going to be killing much without maxed Physical investment.
@DrkSlay: Did you run any calcs on Hammer Arm? I'm really afraid that Cross Chop would be too strong (especially if it crits), and I like how Hammer Arm forces both special and physical CAP 10s to switch out due to the speed drop.
Some responses to various things (not entirely directed at anyone in particular, unless stated):
Why is there such a fear for CAP10 to get a Fire move outside of HP Fire? Let's look at this from a calculation standpoint. Here is a list of Pokemon that CAP10 would actually think about hitting with a Fire-based move as opposed to its STABs:
Breloom, Celebi, Roserade, and Shaymin can be eliminated from discussion, since Ice Beam deals the same damage to them, and will be the more popular choice. Abomasnow, Forretress, and Scizor will always be OHKO'd by a Fire move, even HP Fire. They are out of the discussion.
That leaves: Heracross, Jirachi, Lucario, Magnezone, and Metagross. Heracross won't be OHKO'd by a Flamethrower, even after SR (69.1% - 81.7%). Two CC's by a ScarfCross will KO CAP10. CAP10 has no business using Flamethrower on CM Jirachi, as not even a +0 Jirachi is 2HKO'd after Leftovers most of the time, and this is assuming . A +1 Wish CMJirachi will always beat a Flamethrower CAP10. Lucario is OHKO'd by Flamethrower, which no other move on CAP10 can do specially. Unless it's DSMagnezone, Magnezone is generally OHKO'd by Flamethrower after SR (a bit over 50% of the time). However, it's not by much (Magnezone can run some SpD investment to prevent the OHKO), and a Physical EQ would be the better choice. Only on Metagross would it seem good, but think again: with an Occa Berry, CAP10 cannot 2HKO, taking in at least two Earthquakes. Without one, it's a 2HKO, not a OHKO, letting Metagross score at least one Earthquake on CAP10. Granted, however, these threats are better handled with Flamethrower than HP Fire. Flamethrower is not overpowered on CAP10.
The only question is whether we want Flamethrower on the same set as Hidden Power. We'll assume that the Hidden Power is Grass, to take out Swampert. So, it will look like this: Surf/TBolt/Flamethrower/HP Grass. You now lose to DDSalamence, first off, as two +0 EQ's KO you (although, the Defensive set is better for Mence, and +1 Mence is faster.). You still are completely walled by Snorlax, Blissey, and to an extent, TTar. You now also have huge problems against Latias, Zapdos and Flygon. Essentially, you lose coverage on four or five Pokemon, and gain extra coverage on four or five Pokemon. If the set was TBolt/Surf/Ice Beam/Flamethrower, Swampert completely laughs in your face, as would Quagsire and all of the Special Walls (still). Suicune would now have an easier time switching in, resisting three quarters of your moves. Not to mention a harder time against Kingdra and such. Adding Flamethrower to a set combined with Hidden Power is not broken. It just adds to the Four Move Slot Syndrome, which is CAP10's greatest counter. CAP10 loses coverage this way.
In all honesty, Overheat would produce similar numbers against all of these Pokemon (except OccaGross), except that it OHKO's Heracross and Lucario. If people are complaining that Flamethrower is too powerful, then Overhead should be ahead of Flamethrower on that list. It just would punish CAP10 for using a Fire move, which makes zero sense. Not to mention that it could quite possibly OHKO Skarmory on a Neutral nature set with zero SpA EV's. Overheat is not a good choice over Flamethrower.
On the subject of fears, why is everyone afraid of Cross Chop actually giving CAP10 the means of doing its job? I believe it was a mistake to label Blissey and Snorlax as "MUST BE A COUNTER AT ALL COSTS," since there are better Pokemon to do this with. Kingdra, Cresselia, to name a few. However, back to point, CurseLax will 100% counter every single CAP10 set if we do not give it Cross Chop. That is absurd. Is it not enough for Snorlax to counter the Special sets? Must we have such a hard counter to CAP10? If this was the case, then CAP10 would easily be defeated with a combination of Snorlax(Blissey)/Dusknoir on every team. CAP10 cannot win offensively, and we would be forced to address this in the Defensive Moves stage. Let's do some - you guessed it - calculations.
Cross Chop:
Blissey: 63.6% - 75.2% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
Curselax: 50.5% - 59.6%, 33.8% - 40.2% (small chance of 2HKO after SR), 25.4% - 30.2% (guaranteed 3HKO)
Verdict: CAP10 will successfully counter both threats, while taking half damage from a +1 Return from Curselax.
Superpower:
Blissey: 76.4% - 90.1%, 50.8% - 60% (cannot 2HKO if Blissey uses Wish or Softboiled on the initial hit, which will happen)
Curselax: 60.8% - 71.6%, 27% - 32.2% (2HKO after Rocks)
Verdict: Blissey will wall CAP10 thanks to Wish+Protect and Softboiled, and CAP10 will get weaker. However, CAP10 has a better time with Curselax.
Brick Break:
Blissey: 47.8% - 56.3% (2HKO after Rocks, but can be easily Wish/Softboiled stalled)
Curselax: 38.2% - 44.9%, 25.4% - 30.2% (can be Rest stalled after one Curse, which means Curselax always wins)
Scarftar: 57.3% - 67.8% (Wow.)
Verdict: Bad move if we only give it Brick Break. It is only somewhat useful for Blissey if Blissey is low on PP/at less than half health.
@ Dominion:
Read my calculations and opinion on Earthquake. It's absolutely necessary to have in order to beat Electivire, Jolteon, Magnezone (unless we give CAP10 Flamethrower), and Lucario (tied with Cross Chop/Superpower).
On that subject, we'll need Earthquake over Earth Power if we're going to hit these threats too. Jolteon and Electivire will still win, as they are not OHKO'd by Earth Power.
EDIT: @Requiem: Hammer Arm has the same damage output as Cross Chop, just with a -1 Speed. I don't see why that shouldn't be a happy medium between Cross Chop and no Cross Chop. Thanks for pointing it out!
This is first and foremost a competitive project. Flavor arguments should not have much weight, if at all.
That said, here are some of my thoughts.
Flamethrower: Some calcs have been done showing that it is largely irrelevant when HP Fire is available. However, this allows it to run another HP. I am undecided on Flamethrower and other similarly powered fire-type moves, but against fire moves which would be significantly stronger than HP.
Charge Beam: I'm against the proposition of a sweeper, but I'm not sure if this CAP would really be able to stay in long enough, and have high enough stats, to pull it off. Slightly against.
Earthquake: Is pretty much necessary. For.
Superpower: This is pretty important for dealing with Blissey, but the only question really is if we want this CAP to be able to take on Blissey. Slightly for.
Bug Buzz/Signal Beam/X-Scissor: If these moves only really help with Celebi, then I think it's reasonable to allow them and let the player decide how to customize their moveset. For, unless someone provides calcs on how this would drastically affect other Pokemon's abilities.
Air Slash/Psychic/Extrasensory: Once again, these are almost completely situational, which is good for this concept. For.
EDIT: In response to some arguments, I'm going to agree that disallowing Ice Beam would be a great idea, seeing as it is arguably one of the best attacking types in terms of SE coverage. It would be going against convention, but nowhere is it written in stone that water types must have Ice Beam. I had thought it rather odd that this move was automatically considered part of the movepool almost unquestioningly, as opposed to how much scrutiny is going on even with moves like Signal Beam.
As it stands right now, CAP 10 will need both an appropriate physical and special movepool to help counter specific threats. Here's where we're at:
Physical Movepool
Waterfall
ThunderPunch
Special Movepool
Surf
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Reachzero mentioned how Water/Electric/Ice offers perfect neutral coverage, which is correct, so the Special movepool as it stands is more or less "good," especially for Magic Guard LO sweeper sets that are supplemented by an appropriate Hidden Power or support move. If we want to avoid crazy LO sweeps, I say we limit the Special movepool to just those three attacks and Hidden Power. Less competitive but still viable moves I would add to this list would be Thunder and Charge Beam, as the former could be a useful tool on Rain Dance teams and the latter gives it better options for a tankish special sweep, while both would be inferior to CAP's other options for an all-out sweep attempt (if Blissey can't beat SubCharge Rotom, then Blissey not beating SubCharge CAP 10 is not a big deal). Truth be told, it would be rude not to give these moves to an Electric-type pokemon anyway.
So then, CAP's physical movepool as it stands is almost completely non-threatening, making it a very unappealing alternative to its special attack options. I would therefore support expanding the physical movepool to offer the majority of coverage moves that will be used for countering specific threats. This will delegate LOL MAGIC GUARD SWEEP to either its predictable special movepool or its inferior physical movepool (I mean "inferior" in the sense that a special sweep is better in OU, as the metagame is quite capable of taking physical hits).
I see nothing wrong with adding Aqua Tail to this list of physical options, as it gives a more powerful physical STAB than its current choices, something it will probably enjoy, as it has the bulk to bounce back from rare misses.
Ice Punch can also be added, although I feel like if an Ice-type attack is desired for anything but Latias or Roserade, Ice Beam will be much more suitable, so no harm done in allowing it.
I would also add Fire Punch to its physical movepool, as even at 252 EVs and a neutral nature it fails to OHKO Scizor without LO and SR damage while still doing a sizable enough amount of damage to take it out of commission. It can also 2HKO Shed Shell Forretress only with SR damage if it's not carrying a LO. Without a special Fire-type attack outside of Hidden Power in the movepool, it gives more of an edge to physical-based CAPs. It is well-known that access to the elemental punches for any Pokemon does not make it broken, so I see no reason not to give physical CAP 10 access to these coverage attacks.
I also think Earthquake, Crunch, Brick Break, and Superpower should all be allowed. Earthquake is a solid coverage move and would actually help it check non-EQ CAP 10s. Crunch gives it a usable weapon against Celebi and Latias that is (slightly) better than Ice Punch and isn't too ridiculous (so no X-Scissor here). Brick Break and Superpower are both acceptable and both used for drastically different purposes, so I think both should be allowed as CAP's Fighting-type options. Brick Break would function better on a defensive build, able to break screens and counter a particular strategy in the process, while Superpower allows it great in-and-out damage for more offensively-geared sets.
Finally (for now), I would like to allow Volt Tackle in the movepool, and this is because it's really CAP's only really good physically offensive option for doing damage. Aqua Tail is its next best thing, and the accuracy issue makes it inferior to Waterfall, meaning physical CAP really has little business abusing its physical STABs in any capacity. Volt Tackle will help it do this and is certainly not overpowered, in my opinion.
My final opinion (Allowed):
Physical Movepool:
Waterfall
ThunderPunch
Aqua Tail
Ice Punch
Fire Punch
Earthquake
Crunch
Brick Break
Superpower
Volt Tackle
Special Movepool:
Surf
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Hidden Power
Thunder
Charge Beam
This is my main concern with Volt Tackle. Most of Rising Dusk's arguments for it argue that it is necessary to counter certain defensive threats, like Crocune and Curselax.
By this logic, Cross Chop and Volt Tackle are undesirable, I think...
-EDIT- v Which is why Fire and Grass moves outside of HP aren't necessary.
Well if Cross Chop and Volt Tackle won't help CAP10 counter any offensive threats, then they ought to be disallowed.
Similarly, if Hidden Power of a certain type is strong enough for CAP10 to counter offensive threats with that Hidden Power, then special moves of the same type with higher base power should also be disallowed.
To begin my approach to moves, Defensive Celebi is never going to be a check to CAP10. Trace nets it Natural Cure, which neutralizes Thunder Wave, While Magic Guard and 105 Spe allow it to overwhelm Celebi easily at low cost.
If you allow Ice Beam to deal with Salamence, the demand for a Salamence counter will inherently lead to a large amount of CAP10's with Ice Beam. Defensive Celebi will need to run Leaf Storm to have a prayer of a chance against CAP10. If anything should be controversial, it's Ice Beam, not Bug Buzz. People are always lauding how great Water/Electric/Ice is as generic coverage. Doesn't excellent generic coverage defy the purpose of CAP10?
Coddling Celebi is a pointless endeavor. If Bug Moves don't get it, Ice or Fire moves will. In the meantime, Bug moves give a great deal of viability in dealing with Latias, Tyranitar, and Azelf. Bug Buzz deals less damage to Shaymin than Ice Beam. We should not be losing this level of specific versatility on Celebi's behalf if we intend to include Ice Moves.
I would consider competitive Ice Moves a far greater danger to making CAP10 a wallbreaker than Bug Moves. Zapdos fares much better against a CAP that gets Bug Buzz but does not get Ice Beam. Shaymin should be able to soft check, but trying to coddle a pokemon with as many weaknesses as Celebi is too limiting. The only reason to oppose Bug Moves is an obsession with Celebi, which is by far the more offensive pokemon between itself and Shaymin.
In replacement of Ice Moves, I suggest Dragon Moves. Draco Meteor in particular allows you to counter Salamence and Kingdra while still allowing Celebi to come in. There is a way to separate it and Bug Buzz as well, if that is a concern.
Incidentally, there is also a way to separate Volt Tackle from Magic Guard. It's more contrived than some would like, but Volt Tackle as an Event move dependent upon ability will allow Trace CAP10 a good physical STAB while keeping Magic Guard CAP10 from being broken.
In summary:
I am against Ice Beam and Blizzard.
I am for Bug Buzz and Dragon moves, with emphasis on Draco Meteor.
I am for Volt Tackle, provided it is separated from Magic Guard.
I'm in total agreement here with Deck, and was about to make a similar post. I want pretty much every coverage move mentioned to be allowed, Flamethrower, Bug Buzz, Psychic, Dragon Pulse, etc. And disallow Ice Beam.
The fact that I see posts about "Just give it Surf/Tbolt/Ice Beam and we can call it a day is absurd. The more uncommon specific moves we give it and the less standard coverage moves, the more we actually have to tailor this thing to what it's supposed to do. If you want to run ice, you can have HP ice, but other than that, I'm in full support of moves that don't serve much purpose other than taking out specific targets and I'm opposed to Ice Beam, and even iffy on Surf..
Edit: A simple example. or we can use the surf/icebeam/tbolt/HP (X) set for every CAP10 there is and have standardized checks. Or we could have a situation where CAP10 for instance wants to get rid of steels for it's dragon teammates, runs flamethrower/EQ or Earth Power/Magnet Rise/Shadow Ball just so it can perfectly destroy every possible steel or Steel/Psychic, but gets walled by about the entire metagame. However, it could also be running an anti dragon set and suddely the counters for CAP10 are totally dependant on what set it is running then.
Seriously, I think we should move away from the standard broad coverage moves and make it so we HAVE to tailor this thing to what we want it to counter.
