CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 10a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[beej]

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Ability: Trace
Ability: Magic Guard

Okay, so now we will be constructing a movepool for this CAP. Because a movepool is multi-faceted, it will be broken up into a few steps in which we decide what moves we're going to allow into the final movepools. This step will be used to decide what attacking moves will be allowed onto this Pokemon. Attacking moves are defined by this post. Stuff like Knock Off and Rapid Spin are considered non-attacking moves because they're weak and used for their secondary effects.

Suggested moves will be placed into one of four categories depending on how the discussion goes. Allowed moves will be automatically allowed into the movepool submissions later on. Disallowed moves are outright banned from this Pokemon. Controversial moves will be put into a poll at the end of this discussion, to see if they'll be allowed or not. I put some moves into categories already. They aren't necessarily there permanently, but they won't change unless you post in an attempt to sway me.

Again, here is the list of attacking moves we're looking at here: *

Allowed

Surf
Thunderbolt
Ice Beam
Waterfall
ThunderPunch
Ice Punch
Earthquake
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Avalanche
Psychic
Earth Power
Payback
Crunch
Vacuum Wave
Thunder
Aqua Tail
Crabhammer
Rock Slide
Rock Blast
Low Kick
Sucker Punch
Outrage
Dragon Claw
Aqua Jet
Dark Pulse
Fire Punch
Blizzard

Controversial

Cross Chop
Signal Beam
X-Scissor
Overheat
Superpower
Focus Blast
Aura Sphere
Brave Bird

Disallowed

Fire Blast
Flamethrower
U-turn
Hydro Pump
Grass Knot
Energy Ball
Close Combat
Hammer Arm
Volt Tackle
Stone Edge
Bug Buzz
Pursuit
Charge Beam

We should be able to deal with most individual threats when this is customized, but unless we give this Pokemon very specific moves to beat them, these defensive Pokemon should do pretty well: Blissey, Snorlax, Swampert, Celebi, Bronzong, Cresselia, Dusknoir.

The Rules

• The list of moves in this post will serve as the single point-of-reference for the current state of the discussion.

• Post arguments for moves to be Allowed or Disallowed from the Pokemon's final movepool. All posts should be presented with reasoning.

• Posting lists of moves is strictly prohibited. Do not copy the TL's list, and then add "Yes/No" or a similarly worthless comment, beside each one. Posts that contain lists of moves will be deleted, even if the post contains additional reasoning and content.

• The Topic Leader will update the list continuously throughout the discussion, using recent posts to determine changes to the move list. Moves may have a fluctuating status as the community debates for or against the move in response to changes in the OP.

• Posts should be based on the current state of the list in the OP. It is the responsibility of each member to check the OP before making any post in the thread. Posts that demonstrate lack of familiarity with the current OP will be deleted.

• The Topic Leader is the sole arbiter for determining "general community consensus". The TL may ignore arguments for or against certain moves, if they feel the argument is not presented with sufficient evidence or reasoning. Do not assume that the existence of a few dissenting posts will ensure that a move will be categorized as Controversial.

• All moves that are considered Competitive for this Pokemon are included in the list in the OP. Non-Competitive moves should not be discussed in this thread, unless you feel they are incorrectly categorized and should be considered Competitive (see next rule).

• If you disagree with the TL's categorization of a move as Competitive or Non-Competitive, you can post arguments in this thread, but reasoning must be supplied.

• Do NOT post flavor arguments for allowing moves. Like everything else within this CAP, the move discussion is held on a competitive basis. Don't post "we should allow x because it works with the artwork", seriously OR jokingly.

We're at the last part of the Pokemon here. You should know the drill by now. Don't hog the thread, don't post ridiculous amounts of theorymon, and don't whine about things and be negative. It won't be tolerated.

Remember to only discuss moves that you think are controversial in that they have competitive merit. Now go!

 

[Raikaria]

I'd like to add Volt Tackle to the disallowed list. Aside from there being no possible way for this CAP to get it [It's an exclusive move to a special breeding mechanic], a Base 120 Physical move with STAB, with no recoil, is going to overpower this thing. Sure, it dosen't have the offensive stats of Aggron, but it can use Life Orb without recoil, and there's always Choice Band. Coming off Base 105 Speed isn't partiually nice either, as it's basically a OHKO on any water type bar Swampert and Suicune.


Calcs are pending, because the smogon calulator tends to dislike me, and there is a lack of pokemon with equivilent stats to figure out the min/max.

Charge Beam and Crabhammer should be allowed. Charge beam is a nice boosting move, might be useful on a set or two, but won't be doing much with CAP10's low offensive stats. Crabhammer is stronger than Waterfall, but less accurate, and loses the Flinch, so there's nothing wrong with it.

Flamethrower I'm personally against. Flamethrower may help us with Steel-types, but most of them are somewhat covered by the STABS and the x4 Resist already. Grass-types are meant to be counters. Flamethrower would be only slightly benifical, but that benifical nature would give CAP10 something else to deal with counters. Same said for Fire Blast. Fire Moves will allow this CAP another way to deal significant damage to Celebi and Brongzong. If you WANT something to kill Scizor, use HP Fire.

Earthquake, why not? Unlike Flamethrower, this hits the Steels, but fails to hit Grass-types, who I feel should counter CAP10.

Hydro Pump should be allowed. Most Water-types automatically get Hydro Pump, and it's a trade-off of accuracy vs power. Most pokemon use Surf anyway, even if they have Hydro Pump.

Superpower I agree with, as it lowers CAP10's stats, and has been shown to not defeat Blissey and Snorlax. Meanwhile, I disagree with Cross Chop, as aside from the accuracy, it comes with no downsides, the the high critical ratio gives it a better chance of 2HKO'ing Blissey and Snorlax on the switch-in.

Bug Buzz should NOT be allowed. x4 on Celebi is not good for a would-be 'Counter'. Same for X-Scizzor.

On the other hand, I would support U-Turn, if only out of nessessity. This CAP WILL be forcing switches by the bucketload, it comes in, and whatever it's fighting is leaveing. U-Turn is perfect in this situation. Because you won't stay in, it'll give Celebi a chance to recover from the blow as well. The only thing I see as an issue is a Base 105 throwing U-Turns around as if it's a Scizor wannabe. Waterfall/U-Turn/Thunderpunch/Other with a Choice Band....

In addittion, because a lot of what CAP10 is being sent in on is going to switch out, ad we don't want this CAP being dead in the water from hazards, I feel we should have Persuit on it's movelist, so it actually deals some damage to whatever it's supposed to counter. The presence of Persuit also might make some targets stay in.

 

[noobiess]

charge beam:
should be allowed, it's still a electric pokemon. It's also handy for a little boost wich he can sometimes really use.

crabhammer:
in. For shure. Gives him a more powerfull attack the waterfa, but loses the fliching and a bit of accuracy. So most people are going to use waterfall anyway. This attack allowes to suprise some people.

EQ:
I say no, it's still a shrimp. it is only very ffective against fire (can be killed by surf), electric (can't do so much damage against this one) en steel

flametrower:
I would go for this one, scizor is too powerfull in this game! But fire blast is over the top

cross chop + superpower:
I'm not a fan... It still stays a really tiny pokemon. It shoudn't have those strong fightning moves. Maybe vacuum whave but that's it. Alsowould suggest to keep blissey a counter of this pokemon.

hydopump:
why not, could be handy

x-scizzor + bugg buzz:
I agree with raikaria. No bug buzz and x-scizzors but U-turn

sand tomb:
probably not a very common move, but would sertainly put this up. It matches with the pokemon( because he lives in the sand of the beach) and letting you able to trap the opponent and then use u-turn. Just to give some varation to the pokemon.

(srr for the bad typing, my keyboard is acting weard)

 

[Daniel Craig]

Fire Blast - I mean I dont think it fits the idea and tbh it wrecks some of its main counters ie celebi, also steels and such can be dealt with differently imo.

Flamethrower - see above

Charge Beam - I would love to see more use of this move competively as it is often over shadowed by calm mind or other Sp.Atk raising moves

Earthquake - Im undecided it should be able to hit steels but not this way. Many steels such a steelix, heatran & aggron to name a few all have a secondary weakness to water so I feel earthquake is unnessary

Crabhammer - Its much the same as crabhammer or waterfall, accuracy vs power and whether or not that tasty flinch in waterfall is worth the power loss, so yes why not (:

Hydro Pump - Yes, I mean come on almost every water type gets it, its a strong hard hitting water-type just what CAP10 needs imo.

Superpower- Im against as it hits CAP10's counters to hard (blissey,snorlax)

Cross Chop - See above

Bug Buzz - Now I would love to see bug buzz on CAP10 as it will counter Celebi very well leaving the opponent guessing on whether they should counter with their Celebi or leave it out. I am strongly for this move

X-Scissor - See above (but personally I think Cap10 should have a larger special movepool)

 

[SBM]

i would like to suggest Earth Power, the reason being is so that it could allow it to strike physically inclined defensive pokemon, expecting an an earth quake, which it could take, while it may not be able to take earth power

 

[Daniel Craig]

sand tomb:
probably not a very common move, but would sertainly put this up. It matches with the pokemon( because he lives in the sand of the beach) and letting you able to trap the opponent and then use u-turn. Just to give some varation to the pokemon.

I Think that is a really good idea, i think many new trapper sets could come out of this especially players who think that they can bait certain pokes. you could simply just trap them them u-turn to a counter or finish the bait pokemon off with your own moves

also may i suggest whirlpool the water alternative to sand tomb

(but sand tomb is miles cooler :D)

 

[SinisterSamurai]

I don't see a need for CAP10 to have any fire moves. If I'm reading DrkSlay's analysis right, everything you'd want to counter with a fire move is handled by HP Fire. The sole exception in that list is Bronzong.

I think CAP10 should get both Cross Chop and Earthquake, but as egg moves. Cap10 should not be able to have both moves on one set. In fact, as has been suggested through out the CAPX process, divided egg-based sets should be a big limiting factor.

As DrkSlay said, Earthpower isn't strong enough on CAP10. Most threats you'd try to counter with EP will 2HKO the CAPten first.

 

[LightningLord2]

Instead of Superpower, I'd think Focus Punch could work well, It does 95.3% - 112.3% damage with Life Orb and max Attack, meaning it's always an OHKO after Stealth Rock. And due to the fact that it doesn't work on things that attack, it will (fairly likely) be limited to hit Blissey.

 

[Erazor]

Charge Beam should be allowed IMO. It's a weak move coming off of a low attack stat. CAP10 has better things to do than act as a boosting sweeper. Charge Beam covers nothing that Thunderbolt can't.

Superpower should be allowed, since I believe that Blissey can outstall it with wish + protect, Snorlax doesn't take enough damage, and it doesn't really hit anything else. Snorlax and Blissey still act as counters to CAP 10, even with Superpower.

Cross Chop, on the other hand, should not be allowed. Unlike Superpower, it has no detrimental side-effects, and can easily take out Blissey, who is a counter to this CAP. On a similar note, Focus Punch should be disallowed as well.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Fire Blast
Flamethrower
Charge Beam
Earthquake
Crabhammer

I'll be going over what I consider are the most important options first.

Superpower is important on CAP10. For starters, it's value is immediate and does not reward CAP10 sticking around and continuing to click it repeatedly over turns. It's defensive drop also prevents CAP10 from sticking around to take those physical Earthquakes after popping it on an opponent. If used properly, it can eliminate its target - be that Tyranitar, Weavile, or what have you - but if used incorrectly, will force CAP10 out. Furthermore, if out-predicted (this will be a recurring theme with moves that provide immediate power, but defeat themselves with repeated use), CAP10 will be unable to use it to great effect in breaking walls such as Snorlax or Blissey. It's perfect.

Flamethrower and Fire Blast should not be present on CAP10's movepool. This is important, I feel, because it gives CAP10 too much reliable coverage over many turns for use with Life Orb sets. I advocate the presence of Overheat on CAP10's movepool. I feel that Overheat gives it the coverage it needs with Fire-type attacks, does so with an immediately potent and deadly attack for use against Agility Metagross, SD Lucario, SD Scizor, and other such threats (being the absolute best one-turn option against them), but if out-predicted will leave CAP10 weak and unable to threaten anything any longer. This sort of guessing and prediction game is critical with CAP10, I'd say. Finally, Overheat won't be winning CAP10 any awards offensively on sweeper sets, since once used, will reduce its overall effectiveness at damaging opponents.

Charge Beam is a difficult point of discussion for a lot of people, so let me take this carefully. I've already discussed this with a lot of people on IRC before going forth with suggesting it. One thing we cannot ignore is that every Electric-type Pokemon in the game learns Charge Beam. Is it okay to break this convention? Is this situation so important to the role of CAP10 that we can willfully break this convention just to maintain the concept? We must consider a few things, the first of which is will CAP10 be an effective user of Charge Beam? CAP10 is vulnerable to ground attacks (bar the use of Magnet Rise), so those Ground-types switching in completely shut down CAP10's attempts to sweep if it hasn't accumulated any boosts. Surf, however, alongside its high speed will scare off many of those Ground-type Pokemon, though. It may still see a niche despite this weakness. In addition, CAP10 boasts tremendous bulk to back up its charging. I feel it can definitely be successful as a Charge Beamer, especially with Toxic Spikes support. Next, we want to ask what is the role of Charge Beam on CAP10? All Charge Beam does for CAP10 is prepare it for an eventual sweep. We've already imposed a virtual moratorium on setup moves like Swords Dance and Nasty Plot. What makes Charge Beam different? It's slower? Less accurate? Despite these things, no one can deny that it sets CAP10 up for a sweep, which is not it's role. In lieu of these things and despite that all Electric-types get it, I say that Charge Beam should be absent on CAP10.

Crabhammer is a strange thing to be controversial. It's as reliable as Fire Blast and is a whopping 35 base power weaker than it. It's only moderately more powerful than Waterfall, and substantially less accurate. It will not be winning any awards for CAP10 in sweeping because of its accuracy, nor it's lowish power (Surf hits harder at 100% accuracy). If you want to use Crabhammer in your movepool, I say that's fine, but trust me when I say that it will mostly be a flavor move. Aqua Tail is 5% more accurate, and no secondary effect is hardly a problem for that. I feel that we should give it Aqua Tail more importantly over Crabhammer, simply to have a physical option as close to being on par with Surf as possible. This gives physical variants of CAP10 that focus on countering physically weaker threats a STAB option that's as reliable as it can get while also boasting a large base power.

Earthquake is difficult. It is a reliable physical Ground-type option with largely redundant coverage with Superpower, bar a few cases. It strikes at Jolteon, Heatran, Magnezone, and Electivire harder than Superpower ever will. Heatran is basically murdered by Surf anyways and Magnezone will try to Magnet Rise out of reach of EQ if it's doing any setting up. Electivire and Jolteon, though, make the presence of the move valuable on CAP10 if one's team is particularly Electric-type vulnerable. I feel that CAP10 could put Earthquake to use effectively without running the risk of becoming a sweeper.

Hydro Pump
Superpower
Cross Chop
Bug Buzz
X-Scissor

I fail to see why we should invest in CAP10's movepool the ability to beat reliably so many things that should check it. I feel that things like Grass Knot and Bug Buzz should be absent from CAP10's movepool specifically so that Celebi and Swampert can be more reliable checks or even counters to CAP10. If you want to beat these specific checks, use the appropriate Hidden Power. Hydro Pump serves no purpose on CAP10 except to further punish its supposed checks in Swampert and ScarfTar (who still hates Surf, but can at least outspeed you and hit you with EQ). It adequately counters every offensive threat it should with Surf and Waterfall and some assorted coverage moves.

Those sum up my thoughts on CAP10 having Hydro Pump and Bug Buzz. Deck tried to argue that having these moves makes CAP10 more "unpredictable" and thereby more threatening with a Specs set. This is mostly a point founded in frivolity, though, as with a Life Orb virtually the same power is gained without either the recoil (Magic Guard) or being locked into a single move (thus opening up a support option in the set).

Anyways, ignoring that and considering what he said at face value, I find that CAP10 should never be tailoring itself to beat the largely defensive Pokemon in Celebi or Swampert. BEEJ said so himself. If you want to cover Latias, running a Life Orb with Magic Guard and Ice Beam does so. Tyranitar can no longer bait moves because you're not locked into an attack, and with the possibility of Magnet Rise in the last slot, it might not even be able to hit you back with anything of note. Four move slot syndrome is still in place, as it'd be great to run Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Recover, and Magnet Rise all in one - among the myriad other options CAP10 will inexorably have access to. (Not Bug Buzz or Hydro Pump) X-Scissor falls into the same boat as Bug Buzz and should be absent from CAP10's movepool.

With Superpower as the primary option, I do not feel that CAP10 really needs Cross Chop, although its presence on CAP10's movepool will largely not count for more than flavor. The reliability in maintaining stats gives it something to work with over time, while the lack of accuracy and power compared to Superpower on the first use make it insufficient for countering big-name threats in TTar or Lucario from the physical side. That said, Cross Chop won't be helping CAP10 do much of anything. Superpower is largely the better move for the countering side of CAP10 with its better accuracy and higher power after switching into that threat you want to nail with it.

Other things I wanted to comment on...

CAP10 should not have U-turn. Really, CAP10 is not a scout. It is not intended to reveal members of the opponent's team and then pop out a counter, as that builds and then maintains offensive momentum. There's not much more to say here. Offensive Momentum isn't in, nor should it be in, CAP10's job description.

CAP10 shouldn't get Pursuit. While it might be great to come in on some of those Dark-type weak threats and smack them with Pursuit as they switch out, the Pokemon that CAP10 might threaten with a Pursuit will all generally fare excellently against it to begin with. Blissey will likely stay in on CAP10 and threaten deadly status-inducing moves, Rotom-A will probably burn it or use Thunderbolt - maybe even Leaf Storm if we're talkin' Rotom-C, Latias walls CAP10's STAB options and will smash apart CAP10 with a Draco Meteor or something of that nature, and so forth. Pursuit will not be a popular option on CAP10 for numerous reasons, either. Dark-types do it better, plain and simple. The STAB boost further backed by much larger attack stats will outdo any attempts by CAP10 to Pursuit-trap things. At best, Pursuit will be a gimmick on CAP10 and used for flavor. Competitively, it has no place trying to use Pursuit, and so it should just not be there.

Those are my opinions on these matters. Hopefully I've supplied some reasons for these things that you might not have considered in the past.

 

[Aeron Ee1]

With the appropriate Hidden Power, CAP10 (still haven't gone a name >_>) will be able to hit everything super effectively. So I thought I'd suggest some physical moves in:

Shadow Claw/Night Slash (for some Normal/Ghost)
Dragon Claw (for Water/Dragon's)
Psycho Cut and Aerial Ace (for Fighting-types)

These can all be explained with its claws (pincers!). These don't provide much extra coverage and are mostly for hitting specific/customised targets which is what this CAP is for anyway. They could also be egg moves if people think it shouldnt be used with anything else.

 

[Xiom]

I agree with Rising Dusk

Moves like X-Scizor Flamethrower should not be allowed. Beej has allready disalowed grass wich iss good. Celebi should be able to check this it, you could use Hidden Power if its absolutley necesary to beat it. But then you cannot beat swamper etc.

Okey, im not entierly sure about Ice Beam. I don't have the calcs but I'd belive HP Ice would work against Salamence, or whatever ice weak poke you try to counter, just as good as Ice beem does. It would also mean it won't be able to use HP Grass/Bug etc. this would mean that it can't counter Salamence while at the same time beat Swamper/Celebi reliably.

Allthough if HP ice shows to do less damage then needed I'll withdraw this.

 

[Objection]

When it comes to tailoring a pokemon to counter certain threats, arguably the most significant means of doing so is by choosing a specific Hidden Power. Electric-types like Zapdos and Jolteon are good examples because they're forced to run either HP Grass or HP Ice. The former leaves them wide open to Dragon-types, particularly Salamence, while the latter means Swampert walls them to kingdom come.

If we assume that all the controversial and pending moves are disallowed, then CAP10 will have to select between Fire, Fighting, Bug, Ground and Grass for its Hidden Power. Fighting won't be much use against its main targets Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar, so I believe at least one of Cross Chop and Superpower should be allowed. Apart from hitting Celebi extra hard, Bug doesn't have particularly good coverage, so I don't see why no Bug Buzz. That is to say, Bug Buzz for allowed. Hidden Power Fire is already a superb way of hitting Scizor and Forretress, who would be the main targets since Grass-types are already hit hard by Ice Beam. What I am worried about with this is that if CAP10 gets another Fire-type move like Flamethrower or Fire Blast, it gets the good coverage of Hidden Power Fire without using up its Hidden Power slot. Therefore, all Fire-type moves to be disallowed. This includes Overheat, Heat Wave, Lava Plume, Fire Punch and Flare Blitz. I'm not entirely sure about whether Hidden Power Ground is a good enough Ground-type move or not, and the only major Grass-type moves have been disallowed anyway.

Also, I'd like to add Ice Punch to allowed. Thunderpunch is there and Ice Beam is there, so we evidently have no qualms with CAP10 having physical moves with mediocre base power or competitive Ice-type moves, so there should be no problems with allowing Ice Punch. In a similar vein (replacing Ice with Water), I'd like to suggest Crabhammer and Aqua Tail for allowed.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Fire Blast- I am neutral on this move. Flamethrower would be broken, but Fire Blast's reduced PP and lower accuracy probably would push this to just below broken. However, I am in favour of Overheat, as that allows it to destroy one Pokemon, and get forced out by the next.

Flamethrower-Broken, when you consider accuracy and CAP10's speed with Magic Guard+Life Orb. However, I would propose Lava Plume, since the burn chance helps it to stop quite a few Pokemon.

Charge Beam- It isn't broken. Considering the low power and the unreliability issues, a lucky boost is hard to nab. I'm for putting it on.

Earthquake- Needs to be illegal with Superpower. If that is so, I support it.

Crabhammer- Why not? Its not going to be favoured much over Waterfall anyway, and it is good flavour.

Hydro Pump- Once again, why not? High-power moves are necessary with those puny offenses.

Superpower - Like I said, needs to be illegal with Earthquake. It is useful, as it forces CAP to switch out and not sweep, while getting good power.

Cross Chop-Needs to be illegal, to force people to use Superpower, so that it isn't overpowered.

Bug Buzz- WTF is it going to be buzzing with? Anyway, we don't need it, people should run HP Bug if they badly need a Bug move for Celebi.

X-Scissor- What I said for Bug Buzz.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I say all moves within the Controversial list should be allowed. Fighting type move like Cross Chop and Superpower aren't broken and are very important to CAP10. Bug type moves provide very poor coverage with it's STAB moves and will probably be only used to Celebi hard. DrkSlay mentioned that Hydro Pump on CAP10 wouldn't be game-breaking and it's somewhat superfluous so I don't see any reason why it shouldn't have it.

Within the Pending list, I say Earthquake, Charge Beam, and Crabhammer should be allowed on CAP10's movepool. All Fire moves should be disallowed so that Pokemon like Bronzong can check it more reliable.

 

[bubbly]

Hmmm...I think a fire move is overall going to be necessary; HP fire just isn't strong enough at all. Flamethrower is definitely going to be too good, Overheat I feel is too powerful even for one time use and thus goes against the initial concept.

For me, it comes down to Lava Plume or Fire Blast. On the one hand, you need pretty good move power on this thing to do some damage; on the other hand, accuracy will be very useful for this pokemon's flavour.

In the end, I'll support Lava Plume, but not support Overheat or Flamethrower.

 

[Objection]

Hmmm...I think a fire move is overall going to be necessary; HP fire just isn't strong enough at all.

With no Special Attack EVs and a neutral nature, CAP10 has approximately 2.5% chance of OHKOing Scizor with HP Fire after SR damage. With 140 Special Attack EVs and a neutral nature, it's a guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock. With 192 Special Attack EVs and Modest nature, it's a guaranteed OHKO without SR. If CAP10 gets Earthquake or Earth Power as well, then that is strong enough since Scizor will be the only thing that CAP10 would really need a Fire-type move for (don't give me Bronzong, CAP10 shouldn't have anything to do major damage against something so defensive). Furthermore, it means that CAP10 has to go out of its way to truly counter Scizor, which fulfils the concept.

EDIT: I don't know why I bothered with all the extra damage calcs since with a 4x resist to Bullet Punch and a much higher base speed than Scizor, you'd only need to 2HKO him with a move. HP Fire is definitely strong enough and other Fire-type moves are not necessary.

 

[black_cotton]

I have heard people choosing Hidden Power as the main Coverage Move that brings it possibility of customization to fully purposes...
What bothers me is that to get the coverage of HP we need to come with a special set, (come to think of it, we really gonna lower CAP alright defenses to go mixed?). And since blissey lurks in every corner just waiting a oportunnity to come in and do... blissey stuff... i think we should focus a bit more in the physical coverage options a bit more.

Into the "coverage fighting move" discussion, i'm gonna throw out BRICK BREAK as a option since it provides a 2HKO on blissey with stealth rock, the same as superpower without rocks and doesn't come to the cost of becoming a less powerful everytime using it, witch means that blissey would not win a 1-on-1 situation here with wishprotect/softboiled. And provides more realiabillity into the accuracy something that crosschop would never bring, and finally the superior PP can prove useful.(the calcs to brick break assuming the same stats that DrkSlay used are :47,75%/56,31%; thats my own calcs and you can correct me if i did anything wrong).

Also something we are forgetting are the "pain spliters" witch as stated in previous polls would be a pain to CAP10 deal with(specially buky ones like Dusknoir ), so since most(MOST) of then are ghosts , namely Dusknoir, rotom, spiritomb, mismagius and even gengar. I think we need something for then, so i'm suggesting Nightslash/Dark Pulse into the discussion.

 

[Shock Trooper]

I definitely think that U-Turn should be disallowed. I feel that not only does it go against the nature of the CAP, it also can tear holes into Celebi, who we want to be a counter to CAP10.

I also feel that Brick Break is a great option for CAP10, because it doesn't completely wreck Blissey like Cross Chop does, and it also destroys screens that teams sometimes use to cushion attacks.

Earth Power was suggested earlier by somebody, and I feel that it will work just as well as Earthquake on CAP10, because it will be mainly used for grounded steels and Heatran, and isn't going to damage Blissey/Snorlax that much at all.

 

[TaiCrunch]

Although they would almost never see any use, I'd like to see CAP10 have some psychic-type moves, considering having access to Trace and Magic Guard suggests some sort of physic prowess. So I'd like to suggest:

Psychic: good neutral coverage, chance to lower Sp.D. meh.

Zen Headbutt: Chance to flinch is always nice especially if you can manage to Trace Serene Grace.

Psycho Cut: the heightened crit chance makes up for its sup-par Attack, but not enough to make it insanely broken.

Also I'm not too sure about Brick Break. It's good coverage, but it seems more wall-breaker than utility counter. What about something like Hammer Arm? I think the drawback of lowering Speed (affecting its staying power) better fits the theme, while still being able to 2HKO blissey.

 

[McLuvdisc]

I prefer moves that allow CAP 10 to demolish the Pokemon it's supposed to counter, but have side effects that damage it or force it to switch out. For this reason, I'm in support of Volt Tackle, Overheat, Superpower, and U-Turn, provided that all other Fire, Fighting, and Bug-Type moves are disallowed (with the possible exception of Brick Break). Sure, U-Turn tears a big hole in Celebi, but any half decent battler will realize what CAP 10 is up too and switch out their Celebi to keep it alive. I support Earthquake, but I don't see a lot of people running it will all of CAP 10's other options.

By the way, what are people's opinions on Explosion?

Big Edit: I must have been hit with DynamicPunch or something, because I completely forgot that Magic Guard would cancel out the recoil damage from Volt Tackle (thanks for the reminder, reachzero). I'm withdrawing my support from this move...I guess it could get on there through an event which would guarantee it would only have Trace, but in all honesty that just seems to complicated and I can't find a precedent for it.

I'd also like to see Superpower disallowed, with Hammer Arm in its place. I've realized that it would be way too easy for a special attacker CAP 10 to run Superpower just to KO Blissey, while still posing a threat. TaiCrunch is right - Hammer Arm is better because it will force CAP 10 to switch regardless of the other moves it's carrying.

@TaiCrunch: To be honest, I pretty much agree with you about Explosion. I was just surprised to not see it on the "Controversial" or "Banned" lists.

 

[reachzero]

Let me start by describing what I believe the methodology should look like for deciding on moves for this CAP: considering that CAP10 already has access to perfect coverage in the form of Water/Electric/Ice attacks, there is virtually no need to give CAP10 an array of other attacks for the sake of "coverage". As long as it has the Water/Electric/Ices moves it needs, the need for other moves at all is situational, especially because of Hidden Power. With perfect three-attack coverage, CAP10 is free to run pretty much any exotic Hidden Power it wants; HP Fire for Scizor, HP Flying for Heracross, you name it. Extra moves beyond the Water/Electric/Ice should be justified by how they help against specific offensive threats you have a hard time against otherwise, in my opinion.

With that in mind, my opinion on some of the moves in question:

Pending

Fire Blast +Flamethrower -- I feel that CAP10 has no real reason to get a Fire move other than Hidden Power. Since Fire is redundant with Electric or Ice against pretty much everything except Magnezone or Abomasnow, neither of which is a major threat and one of which is actually expected to counter CAP10 (Abomasnow is the best CAP10 counter!), having a Fire move won't really help CAP10 with countering anything. I am strongly against CAP10 learning a Fire move other than Hidden Power.

Charge Beam--As best I can tell, CAP10 doesn't really need Charge Beam for anything, but I also don't think it will be broken on CAP10. I'm pretty sure I would just about always use Thunderbolt on a sweeping set for the immediate power against Water and Flying types....

Earthquake--clearly useful, because of Lucario, but there are several other potential moves that would be redundant, namely Superpower, Cross Chop or Earth Power. I would prefer Earthquake or Earth Power to the Fighting moves because they hit Lucario while not denting Blissey, Snorlax or Abomasnow as badly.

Crabhammer--Physical CAP10 needs all the good physical Water/Electric/Ice moves it can get to compete with the Special set. It's stronger than Waterfall and I'd rather use Crabhammer than Aqua Tail (the secondary effect compensates for 5% accuracy on a move with less than 100% accuracy, in my opinion). So I think it's fine.

Controversial

Hydro Pump-- Hydro Pump actually goes a long way toward making a physical-based mixed CAP10 a wallbreaker, so I would prefer not to allow it.

Superpower--Not a big problem on its own, but I would rather have a Ground move, because it handles Lucario without hurting CAP10's counters as badly.

Cross Chop--essentially the same as Superpower.

Bug Buzz--Why would CAP10 need Bug Buzz...? Almost the only reason I can think of would be to beat its counters, Abomasnow and Ludicolo, and that isn't a good reason for this concept. Without serious SpD investment Celebi is outsped and 2HKOed by 252 SpA Ice Beam, so I have a hard time taking Celebi seriously as a counter for CAP10, I should note.

X-Scissor--same as Bug Buzz, there is simply no reason to have it, and ample reason not to.
I mentioned Earth Power earlier, and I think it makes sense for CAP10 to get it since it is the best choice of the Earthquake/Earth Power/Fighting move group for beating Lucario in the sense of beating Lucario while not hurting CAP10's counters.

With regard to Volt Tackle, I would like to see it as an event move connected to Trace, since I believe it would be too powerful with Magic Guard, but acceptable with Trace. Volt Tackle would help a lot against Crocune, so it should be useful in certain situations.

U-turn is one of those moves that I simply don't see any good reason to have. Just by coming in CAP10 should theoretically be shifting the momentum by countering what it comes in on, it doesn't need U-turn, really.

 

[TaiCrunch]

I don't really like Explosion tbh. It makes it less "utility" and more spam.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

[/B]Hydro Pump-- Hydro Pump actually goes a long way toward making a physical-based mixed CAP10 a wallbreaker, so I would prefer not to allow it.

I don't really see that being a successful wall breaker if Hydro Pump was ever allowed onto it's movepool. They're not much evidences pointing towards Hydro Pump being broken on this Pokemon nor cause it to be some kind of wall breaker.

With regard to Volt Tackle, I would like to see it as an event move connected to Trace, since I believe it would be too powerful with Magic Guard, but acceptable with Trace. Volt Tackle would help a lot against Crocune, so it should be useful in certain situations.

I rather have disallow Volt Tackle onto it's movepool then to have it but in some convoluted matter.

 

[Zystral]

I fail to see how X-Scissor is controversial at all.
It gives CAP10 a very viable coverage move with which to hit the likes of Latias, Celebi, Azelf, Roserade and Weavile with. Three out of five of the previously mentioned have a weaker Defense than they do Special Defence, and four out of five of them are offensive threats which CAP10 should be able to be customized to counter.

I would also like to have Charge Beam disallowed. CAP10 has naturally good speed and its Special Attack can be invested in. It has large HP also allowing for very bulky substitutes, and combining all of these factors will eventually allow CAP10 to actually beat stall and come out on top most times, most notable against the likes of Suicune, Vaporeon and Blissey. And that's NOT what we want.

Since Superpower and Cross Chop are so controversial, is there anything wrong with Brick Break or Aura Sphere? Brick Break allows CAP10 to deal with Tyranitar effectively (moreso than Waterfall) and Weavile, should X-Scissor not be used. Again, being physical it hits Weavile on the weaker defense and bypasses Tyranitar's Sandstorm SpD boost. Aura Sphere may be slightly less easily accepted, but things such as Mamoswine and Magnezone who are weaker on the Special side are hit harder by it. Aura Sphere is also unaffected by Mamoswine's Snow Cloak, should that be a problem. Admittedly, Mamoswine takes more damage from Surf, but the option is always there.

Also, this has yet to be mentioned, so I'll throw it out there; Dragon Pulse / Dragon Claw. Let's be honest - you're not going to be OHKOing Kingdra with Thunderbolt (or Thunder if the Rain is up, as it usually is with Kingdra), in fact, with Timid, Life Orb, Max SpA, Thunderbolt hits a -ve nature 4 HP Kingdra for 53.42% - 63.01%. Dragon Pulse on the other hand is 79.45% - 93.84%. 40% chance of OHKO with Stealth Rock. Albeit, most other Dragons you OHKO and do more damage with Ice Beam. I'm just saying Kingdra is a threat to look out for.

I'm not so hot on Crabhammer. The accuracy is not worth the power, even with that nice Critical hit ratio. Flavour-wise, sure, but competitively, it won't see enough use. Not even Wide Lens would warrant its use since CAP10 doesn't really have any other low-accuracy physical moves.

Talking about low-accuracy, Hydro Pump. Yeah sure, Magic Guard Life Orb is nice and all. In fact, Life Orb Surf out-damages Wide Lens Hydro Pump. Wide Lens @ Hydro Pump / Thunder would be pointless since Life Orb @ Surf / TBolt do more damage.

Earthquake I support. Lucario, Heatran, Magnezone, Jolteon, Jirachi and Electivire are all hit by Earthquake harder than anything else (bar Fire Blast on Lucario). Of course, I can understand people who suddenly wail "No! Too many at once!" but let's face it - Earthquake isn't the most used attack in the metagame for nothing. The coverage is part of it. And without Earthquake, the likes of Jolteon and Electivire, who are immune to one of your main STAB moves, becomes very difficult to take down. Jolteon can HP Grass you while Electivire also HP Grasses or Cross Chops you.

And with the use of Earthquake, which stops Lucario and Jirachi primarily, I think we can disallow Flamethrower / Fire Blast. Other than Scizor, who can be hit with Surf/Thunderbolt and Forretress, who is a non-offensive-threat, Earthquake covers everything Fire-type needs to, and so it would just be a waste of a moveslot.

I've got more ideas, but that'll be enough for now since I can't really think and put anything else into words.