While this isn't a bad idea, limitations like this aren't currently possible in Shoddy Battle 1. I don't know how hard it would be for Doug to implement that restriction but we shouldn't rely on stipulations such as this. Also if we do get Egg Move heavy in order to prevent certain combinations, every egg move will be forbidden with Volt Tackle and it won't be a worthwhile option.Deck Knight said:
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 10a - Attacking Moves Discussion
- Thread starter beej
- Start date
- Status
@DrkSlay: Thanks, but all credit for the idea of Hammer Arm should go to TaiCrunch. He brought it up a while back, but I noticed nobody was discussing it so I thought I'd bring it up again. Glad to see you agree that it might be a good substitution for Cross Chop and/or Superpower.
@Banryu and smallvizier: OK, time to fight flavor with flavor. First off, I apologize for using the word "hand" to describe Jigglypuff's limbs. That was entirely inaccurate. Allow me to correct myself - they're stubs. They have no joints, fingers, or claws. They look like warts growing out the side of her face. The same goes for Chansey, Clefairy, Gulpin, Whismur, the Lake Trio and so on. Yet all these Pokemon can learn Thunderpunch, despite the fact that they're not even electric-typed.
CAP 10 does not have stubs. It has recognizable limbs with elbows in the middle and claws at the end. Moreover, both of its front claws have glowing electric patches on their ends. I'm not "whining" (thanks for saying that, smallvizier) and I don't see how Thunderpunch goes against the flavor of this Pokemon, even discounting the many precedents GameFreak has given us. Banryu, I agree that the idea of a punching shrimp is ridiculous, but so is the entire concept of Pokemon! How can an animal generate electricity around its fist, anyway? How can a big red lizard make the sun shine brighter? Let's have some fun with this project. If we wanted to make a Pokemon based on a real shrimp, we would just give it Splash and call it a day.
@Banryu and smallvizier: OK, time to fight flavor with flavor. First off, I apologize for using the word "hand" to describe Jigglypuff's limbs. That was entirely inaccurate. Allow me to correct myself - they're stubs. They have no joints, fingers, or claws. They look like warts growing out the side of her face. The same goes for Chansey, Clefairy, Gulpin, Whismur, the Lake Trio and so on. Yet all these Pokemon can learn Thunderpunch, despite the fact that they're not even electric-typed.
CAP 10 does not have stubs. It has recognizable limbs with elbows in the middle and claws at the end. Moreover, both of its front claws have glowing electric patches on their ends. I'm not "whining" (thanks for saying that, smallvizier) and I don't see how Thunderpunch goes against the flavor of this Pokemon, even discounting the many precedents GameFreak has given us. Banryu, I agree that the idea of a punching shrimp is ridiculous, but so is the entire concept of Pokemon! How can an animal generate electricity around its fist, anyway? How can a big red lizard make the sun shine brighter? Let's have some fun with this project. If we wanted to make a Pokemon based on a real shrimp, we would just give it Splash and call it a day.
I agree with Deck Knight's in that babying a specific Pokemon by limiting options to CAP X could potentially ruin the concept as a whole. I also agree that Bug moves aren't as dangerous as people make them to be. What I don't agree with is the banning of Ice moves considering everyone and their mother expect CAP10 to counter Salamence and other Dragon typed foes quickly and effectively. The ideas of making Volt Tackle some kind of event moves for the sake of avoiding Magic Guard also bother me to no end. If you didn't want them to be together, you shouldn't have voted and/or made a better argument against Magic Guard when the ability poll was up. Either allow CAP10 to have it regardless of ability, ban it entirely, or just create a new Electric physical move that isn't as overpowering as Volt Tackle.
Edit:
DrkSlay's recent post has made me more acceptance of allowing Flamethrower into CAP10's movepool. He proves that Flamethrower only isn't broken on CAP10 and while adds coverage towards certain Pokemon, it also add move FMSS to CAP10. That seem fair.
Edit:
DrkSlay's recent post has made me more acceptance of allowing Flamethrower into CAP10's movepool. He proves that Flamethrower only isn't broken on CAP10 and while adds coverage towards certain Pokemon, it also add move FMSS to CAP10. That seem fair.
I also agree with being against Ice Beam. In a funny coincidence, people complaining about moves not matching design while there is no reason to assume Ice Beam other than it is one 99% of Water Types.
Ice Beam basically makes CAP10 a catch all with STAB and Ice. Ice Beam does not help truly beat any specific Pokemon except Salamence and Flygon. Dragon moves can function in a similar way but are far more situational as they don't help against anything but Dragons. I really like that direction.
As for Volt Tackle, I am not convinced it would be too much to consider, even with Magic Guard. CAP10 is about 15% stronger than the only other Pokemon who can try this, Clefable and gets better coverage as Electric > Normal. Even with the boosted speed, would Volt Tackle really be too much? Even though the combination is strong I feel a physical CAP10 should be at least viable and Volt Tackle is pretty much needed as the only other option is the lack luster Thunder Punch. If I want CAP10 to counter Blissey or Snorlax or even Tentacruel, I need Volt Tackle. At the same time, going physical will make stopping Salamence or even Zapdos all the more difficult.
Therefore, I am for:
Volt Tackle
Dragon Moves
and against:
Ice Beam/Blizzard
Ice Beam basically makes CAP10 a catch all with STAB and Ice. Ice Beam does not help truly beat any specific Pokemon except Salamence and Flygon. Dragon moves can function in a similar way but are far more situational as they don't help against anything but Dragons. I really like that direction.
As for Volt Tackle, I am not convinced it would be too much to consider, even with Magic Guard. CAP10 is about 15% stronger than the only other Pokemon who can try this, Clefable and gets better coverage as Electric > Normal. Even with the boosted speed, would Volt Tackle really be too much? Even though the combination is strong I feel a physical CAP10 should be at least viable and Volt Tackle is pretty much needed as the only other option is the lack luster Thunder Punch. If I want CAP10 to counter Blissey or Snorlax or even Tentacruel, I need Volt Tackle. At the same time, going physical will make stopping Salamence or even Zapdos all the more difficult.
Therefore, I am for:
Volt Tackle
Dragon Moves
and against:
Ice Beam/Blizzard
Raj
CAP Playtesting Expert
I don't understand why Volt Tackle should be disallowed on part of being capable of 2HKOing Bliss and Snorlax. This guy is meant to counter things, but not everything at once, so isn't it reasonable it have a way of ascaring Blissey and Snorlax?
Also, I'm all for Signal Beam and don't mind either way on U-turn. Signal Beam is not uncommon on either Water or Electric Pokemon and it surely isn't overpowered. Also, just because U-turn doesn't necessarily act as a "utility counter" move, doesn't mean it can't get it. We don't want to limit a CaP's variety of options.
Also, I'm all for Signal Beam and don't mind either way on U-turn. Signal Beam is not uncommon on either Water or Electric Pokemon and it surely isn't overpowered. Also, just because U-turn doesn't necessarily act as a "utility counter" move, doesn't mean it can't get it. We don't want to limit a CaP's variety of options.
What's more, this automatically makes Kingdra, one of its best counters and someone who probably needs to see more use anyway, no longer an effective counter for it.
Plus, how to you expect to effectively counter Salamence without Ice Beam? Dragon Pulse does not OHKO, giving Salamence time to get a Dragon Dance in to give it the OHKO on CAP-10.
I completely agree with Gothic Togekiss, there's no reason to expect that Volt Tackle and Magic Guard won't be used together. The premise of using the excuse of an event to restrict the movepool of a Pokemon that WE'RE MAKING UP doesn't make a lot of sense.
Plus, how to you expect to effectively counter Salamence without Ice Beam? Dragon Pulse does not OHKO, giving Salamence time to get a Dragon Dance in to give it the OHKO on CAP-10.
I completely agree with Gothic Togekiss, there's no reason to expect that Volt Tackle and Magic Guard won't be used together. The premise of using the excuse of an event to restrict the movepool of a Pokemon that WE'RE MAKING UP doesn't make a lot of sense.
Following the argument on breaking convention only when absolutely necessary, It stands as a logical argument against ice moves despite that every water type learns Ice Beam; this keeps CAP 10 from being a weaker, bulkier Starmie, and is a great idea; Ice Beam should be disallowed. Perhaps giving it only Icy Wind is a good way around this loophole? that being said, keeping CAP 10 from having Surf is simply ridiculous, although I agree that Hydro Pump is excessive and should be left out.
As far as some of the controversial moves go:
Earthquake: should be allowed. It eliminates the need for a potential coverage move with relatively few targets in the way of Fire moves; plus this will mean that (if we choose to follow Gamefreak's conventions--a recurring theme in this thread it seems) that CAP 10 will have to be substantially heavy enough so that Grass Knot becomes a deadly and reliable attack against it. Considering it is the best way to take on highly offensive threats of Jolteon and Metagross (and Heatran, by association), it really is an obvious choice.
Special-based Fire Moves: should not be allowed. Especially if EQ is included, it will be largely unneeded against offensive threats, while giving CAP 10 a way of beating the defensive Steels who will otherwise check it. Fire Punch, however, should be ok considering the significantly higher Defense stat of those bulky steels you want to use it against, lack of STAB, and low base power.
Signal Beam: should be allowed. Its low base power and meh coverage, combined with the relatively high special defense of its intended targets makes it a lesser option at best.
X-Scissor: given the special-based bias so far on CAP 10's movepool, it stands as a good balance if the only way to hurt Celebi, one of its best counters, is to run a mixed or a largely inferior pure physical set, and should be allowed.
U-Turn: should not be allowed, simply because CAP 10's counters should not be so easily played around. This would lead to these pokes being worn down to the point where CAP 10 no longer has anything to fear. Surely this is a viable strategy, but we shouldn't make it so easy to implement by adding U-Turn.
Cross-Chop: Should not be allowed. The only advantage to using Cross-Chop would be to beat Blissey & Snorlax, who would be reliable counters otherwise. Defensive moves should be used to beat Curselax. Perhaps using Aura Sphere or Focus Blast instead (as suggested earlier) will give CAP 10 an option of beating Tyranitar while keeping Blissey & Snorlax as safe switch-ins if Bug-type moves end up being disallowed.
Superpower: should be allowed. The diminishing return of the attack is enough to keep CAP 10's counters as counters. Also, CAP 10's tendency to run either mixed or purely special will keep Superpower from being, er... Super-powerful (sorry I couldn't resist XD)
Volt Tackle: should not be allowed if X-Scissor ends up being allowed. Regardless of flavor arguments, Volt Tackle instantly makes physical sets more attractive and effective, making X-Scissor by association more threatening to Celebi.
Elemental Punches: Should be allowed. So far they would be CAP 10's best options for going fully physical besides STAB Waterfall, X-Scissor, and Earthquake, assuming no Volt Tackle. The fact that the elemental punches have a lot of overlapping coverage with said attacks makes them lesser options as well.
Finally I would like to suggest another move to consider: Power Gem. This is consistent with CAP 10's special bias, and would be a good move to pair with it's Water STAB and Bug move in lieu of an Ice-type move while keeping The Hidden Power slot available for other threats. Alternately, Weather Ball could potentially serve the same purpose when used with Sand Stream, while also potentially temporarily giving CAP 10 a more powerful Fire-type attack option than Hidden Power, or a better Ice-move than Icy Wind. The unreliability of this move balances out the increased power Weather Ball has over Flamethrower or Ice Beam, while requiring CAP 10 (and maybe the team it's on as well) to be more specifically tailored to certain threats, which fit the original concept.
I am inclined to agree with Objection so far as that we should only give this pokemon moves necessary to beat the top pokes, but when did "any specific Pokemon" turn into "any specific OFFENSIVE pokemon"?
I also agree with DK (and others) in saying that Ice Beam and other Ice moves are probably a poor idea. And then going from there it'd be dumb not to give CAP10 Bug moves and Dragon moves.
I also agree with DK (and others) in saying that Ice Beam and other Ice moves are probably a poor idea. And then going from there it'd be dumb not to give CAP10 Bug moves and Dragon moves.
I'm not personally quite convinced to vote against Ice Beam myself yet, but either way it's true that even a Timid LO 252 SpA CAP10 HP Ice easily gets the OHKO on standard 4 HP Salamance, and that's without factoring in Stealth Rock. And since Timid CAP10 outspeeds Salamance, there's really no issue there. Plus, even though I'd prefer for it to have Ice Beam anyway, Deck Knight is kind of right that forcing it to use something like HP Ice to beat Salamance instead of a great coverage moveset of Surf/Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Filler really does fit the concept better. But anyway, Ice Beam is hardly necessary for beating Salamence--with or without it, Dragon Pulse, etc, it will be able to beat it.
DD Salamence probably could beat CAP-10 if Dragon Pulse doesn't OHKO. We won't know for sure until we get some actual calculations, but it sure seems like CAP-10 would have a harder time doing its job of countering Salamence if it didn't have Ice Beam (and that's completely barring the fact that basically all Water-types get Ice Beam. x____x). And as has been said, there are still things that CAP-10 struggles against with Surf / Tbolt / Ice Beam / (filler), like Kingdra, Jolteon, Magnezone, etc.
Basically, I don't agree that having HP Ice instead of Ice Beam makes it more of the utility counter that we're going for.
Icy Wind would be the perfect answer here. Even though it's weaker than HP Ice, the fact it neutralizes Dragon Dance's Speed boost means Mence must either switch or be 2HKOed by Icy Wind; this is of course assuming Icy Wind isn't an OHKO.
I did the calcs myself on Smogon's Damage Calculator (using Banette as a base since it has the same Special Attack stat as CAP9, and changing its typing to Electric/Water when necessary (which wasn't here, of course)) before making that post to check if it needed Ice Beam or not--wouldn't have posted if I didn't:
CAP 10 Timid 252 SpA LO Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP/0 Salamence:
119.6% - 141.4%
w/o Life Orb: 91.8% - 108.8% (Guaranteed OHKO with Stealth Rock).
So yeah, CAP10 definitely doesn't need Ice Beam to beat Salamence--it doesn't help it to beat it any better than HP Ice.
This whole No Ice attack thing has arisen from the whole No bug attack for Celebi's sake argument. It's like a reversal of said argument but anyway I think we're making a big mistake in taking away Ice Beam/Blizzard from CAP10's movepool and that using Hidden Power to justify the removal of those move and/or "it fits the concept more" are bad reasoning, but if we have to can we at least keep and/give it Avalanche, Ice Punch, and maybe Aurora Beam? Neither one of them are broken on CAP 10.
The more I hear that kind of comment then more I hate it. It was okay the first time it was mentioned, but now it sounds like a lame excuse to add and/or remove something. I feel that at this point of time those kind of reasoning shouldn't be considered valid anymore.
No...I don't. Surf & Thunderbolt are sweeping move as well, should we disallow them as well?
You're already forcing it to use Hidden Power, you want it to use it more. If you want to resist this Pokemon so much why just suggest that we disallow all offensive moves other than Hidden Power and STAB moves. Now the worries of it having too much coverage is gone.
Wouldn't that be a good thing? It would allow it to still hit Latias, Grass types, and Azelf but now it wouldn't be able to handle Salamence and others. Bug type moves are inferior to Ice type moves anyway.
I'm pretty sure that there are banned things like Scrappy Kangaskhan with Body Slam (3rd Gen tutor only), and that it can be implemented in this way. The backstory can be fairly well contrived, like say it only happens if CAP10's mother is holding a Light Orb and the baby is born with Trace, for example.
Also, for a little Word of God here:
CAP10 is like whatever the hell we say it is like. If I want to build a movepool full of psychic support moves and dragon attacks I can do it. I've actually prepared just such a skeleton in making my arguments and I think it looks pretty organic and natural overall, with a few of my standard eccentricities.
If we want a Water pokemon without Ice moves or an Electric without Signal Beam or Charge Beam we have every right to do so if it fits the competitive purpose of the project. There's no particular reason for Golduck to have a psuedo-"Psychic" type movepool and Worry Seed, but that didn't stop Gamefreak.
As far as more actual moves, I want to discuss Physical Attacks,
Specifically, I support Rock Blast and Rock Slide as competitive moves. The most annoying Zapdos set has to be the SubRoost set, and Rock Blast send that set to hell. Rock Slide on the other hand flinches Zapdos. I'm generally opposed to Stone Edge because it's way too easy to PP Stall and it's more sweep-based than I would lile.
Earthquake and X-Scissor also have my support. Earthquake can finish off a -1 Def Lucario before it can do much more damage, while X-Scissor supports the Water/Electric/Bug Paradigm, a paradigm that is very effective against Rain Dance teams. Earthquake is also the best move to handle many offensive threats like Heatran, Jolteon, and Electivire.
I'm not yet convinced of Cross Chop, but Cross chop + Superpower seems like a solid option. Another move I support is Low Kick, which hits Snorlax pretty hard but doesn't do as much to Blissey.
Avalanche and Ice Shard are physical moves I support. Neither are effective against defensive Grass types in the way Ice Beam is, Avalanche because it requires CAP10 to take a hit before it can deal high levels of damage, and Ice Shard because it is a very niche move.
My feelings are mixed on Ice Punch, although I don't mind Ice Fang or Icy Wind.
Yeah, I personally agree with that GT, and that's why I am fine with it getting Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Bug Buzz, as well as Earthquake right now (Not worried about Ice Beam/Bug Buzz because I'm really not all that concerned with whether it beats Celebi or not myself. For EQ, the points that DrkSlay rose. And stuff like Hydro Pump has accuracy problems (only a 64% chance of hitting twice in a row, factored on top of its chances of getting a 2HKO, and such). Plus, even assuming something like Surf/Ice Beam/Tbolt/HP Grass, Pokemon like Snorlax, Blissey, and Cresselia all laugh at it.). I only really posted to correct that bit about it needing Ice Beam to beat Salamence.
Charge Beam:
I am completely in favor of Charge Beam being in CAP10's movepool. No many people have given a comparison to Rotom-A's charge beam set. The pokemon perform completely differently. First of all, Rotom-A is immune to Earthquake. This is extremely beneficial to its chance at sweeping. Rotom-A can switch in on a EQ and get a Sub up easily. CAP10 does not have the luxury of being able to take an EQ. Not only that, but CAP10 also has to deal with fighting moves, while Rotom-A isn't affected by them. No pokemon weak to Earthquake that doesn't have amazing defenses (remember, since you are sweeping, you won't be able to invest a lot into them) with an extremely slow set up move is not broken. Magnet Rise is not an arguement either-you can't afford to fill your moveslots with Charge Beam, Magnet Rise, and Substitute. That leaves you one slots left to sweep with Surf. Rotom-A has the blessing of being able to pair STAB Shadow Ball with HP Fighting-perfect coverage, plus not having to use Magnet Rise. Magnet Rise+Charge Beam set would be godawful. And if you still think Magnet Rise+Charge Beam would be broken, then we could just ban Magnet Rise. It is the less useful of the two moves. Even a SubCharge set without Magnet Rise would need serious support to pull off-No move alone pairs that well with Surf, Tri Attack being the best. So Charge Beam would be little more than a cool novelty set-not used often, not easy to pull off, and certainly not broken. So, if you couldn't figure out by now-Charge Beam for Allowed.
Unlike many people, I have no problem with either Bug Buzz or X-Scissor. The are only really useful for Celebi, who isn't really a primary counter, considering how much Ice Beam can do to it. All these moves really do is increase versatility and make CAP10 a cool lure for Celebi. Similarly to Megahorn on Colossoil, these moves will likely see little to no usage. So both bug moves for Allowed.
One thing I especially don't get is the desire to ban Ice Beam and give it Draco Meteor. CAP10 needs so much investment into its SpA to OHKO Mixmence. After putting in EV's to outspeed, you will have none left to boost up you defenses. Now I know we don't want to make CAP10 able to check everything. But a -2 SpA CAP with no defenses is set up bait for anything except maybe Gyarados. Do we want a pokemon like this? I sure don't. CAP10 shouldn't be able to counter everything at once. But it shouldn't be complete set up bait. I would rather go back to old methods of "countering" Mence than be stuck with set up fodder. So Ice Beam for Allowed. Oh and about HP Ice. It too needs serious investment to beat mence. And Mence is x4 weak to it. CAP9 will have immense trouble on other things that Ice Beam is useful for that are only x2 weak to Ice. Like I said, I don't think that CAP10 should be worthless after it counters whatever-it should be a solid, OU caliber pokemon. If we follow the concept word for word, I fear CAP10 will become an inferior, situational pokemon. We aren't breaking CAP10 with Ice Beam and it is extremely valuable to CAP10 as a whole.
I am completely in favor of Charge Beam being in CAP10's movepool. No many people have given a comparison to Rotom-A's charge beam set. The pokemon perform completely differently. First of all, Rotom-A is immune to Earthquake. This is extremely beneficial to its chance at sweeping. Rotom-A can switch in on a EQ and get a Sub up easily. CAP10 does not have the luxury of being able to take an EQ. Not only that, but CAP10 also has to deal with fighting moves, while Rotom-A isn't affected by them. No pokemon weak to Earthquake that doesn't have amazing defenses (remember, since you are sweeping, you won't be able to invest a lot into them) with an extremely slow set up move is not broken. Magnet Rise is not an arguement either-you can't afford to fill your moveslots with Charge Beam, Magnet Rise, and Substitute. That leaves you one slots left to sweep with Surf. Rotom-A has the blessing of being able to pair STAB Shadow Ball with HP Fighting-perfect coverage, plus not having to use Magnet Rise. Magnet Rise+Charge Beam set would be godawful. And if you still think Magnet Rise+Charge Beam would be broken, then we could just ban Magnet Rise. It is the less useful of the two moves. Even a SubCharge set without Magnet Rise would need serious support to pull off-No move alone pairs that well with Surf, Tri Attack being the best. So Charge Beam would be little more than a cool novelty set-not used often, not easy to pull off, and certainly not broken. So, if you couldn't figure out by now-Charge Beam for Allowed.
Unlike many people, I have no problem with either Bug Buzz or X-Scissor. The are only really useful for Celebi, who isn't really a primary counter, considering how much Ice Beam can do to it. All these moves really do is increase versatility and make CAP10 a cool lure for Celebi. Similarly to Megahorn on Colossoil, these moves will likely see little to no usage. So both bug moves for Allowed.
One thing I especially don't get is the desire to ban Ice Beam and give it Draco Meteor. CAP10 needs so much investment into its SpA to OHKO Mixmence. After putting in EV's to outspeed, you will have none left to boost up you defenses. Now I know we don't want to make CAP10 able to check everything. But a -2 SpA CAP with no defenses is set up bait for anything except maybe Gyarados. Do we want a pokemon like this? I sure don't. CAP10 shouldn't be able to counter everything at once. But it shouldn't be complete set up bait. I would rather go back to old methods of "countering" Mence than be stuck with set up fodder. So Ice Beam for Allowed. Oh and about HP Ice. It too needs serious investment to beat mence. And Mence is x4 weak to it. CAP9 will have immense trouble on other things that Ice Beam is useful for that are only x2 weak to Ice. Like I said, I don't think that CAP10 should be worthless after it counters whatever-it should be a solid, OU caliber pokemon. If we follow the concept word for word, I fear CAP10 will become an inferior, situational pokemon. We aren't breaking CAP10 with Ice Beam and it is extremely valuable to CAP10 as a whole.
I don't actally disagree with this myself of curse, and fully feel that we can do this. However, as I was taking a shower just not, an interesting thought came to me, which leads me to playing devil's advocate here: Yes, what you say is true and we can do this if we want to. However, that leads to an interesting contradiction in a later part of a process (unless I've missed a process change or something). Here, we can ignore movepool-traditions and do stuff like deny Water-type Ice Beam and such, as we see fit.
However, in the actual movepool submissions, in order to be legal and accepted, we're forced to accept those very same types of traditions, doing stuff like making sure that we only have so many competitive egg moves and such. The reasoning's pretty much the same either way though, as they're mostly just based on what the movepools of Pokemon have been like so far. Thus, how can we just ignore those common features of movepools here, only to suddenly force ourselves to be bound my them later? Or, in other words, how can we basically be saying that we're not bound by Game Freak's rules in this step, and potentially do stuff like deny a Fire-type Flamethrower if it was too powerful for its concept (or, in this case, deny a Water-type stuff like Ice Beam and an Electric-type Charge Beam), but yet just a few steps later, say that Game Freak's rules do bind us all of a sudden, and we have to follow tradition, giving CAPs only a certain number of competitive Egg Moves and such, just because Game Freak themselves haven't made any Pokemon with a set of Egg Moves like that?
Pretty much, IMO, it should all be one or the other--flip-flopping on this makes absolutely no sense. Either we should be bound by them for the entire movepool process, or not at all. This is of course where it gets more towards being a Policy Review topic than anything, and we certainly can't change the process and alter the movepool submission rules right in the middle of a CAP--that's definitely not acceptable, and has to wait until this CAP is over. What that means though is that for Movepool submissions, we will be bound by this logic. Thus, in that case, I see no reason why it shouldn't be applied here as well (even though we can't change the Movepool Submission process here, we can just refuse to accept arguments that don't conform to the norms of Pokemon movepools here): if we can't give a Pokemon more than a certain number of competitive Egg Moves during Submissions, then under that same logic, we certainly can't be denying a Water-type like CAP10 Ice Beam. After this CAP ends, we can hold a Policy Review to change this if need be, but until that point, I can't see how we can hold ourselves to one set of rules here, and do stuff like denying CAP10 access to certain moves here, and then completely changing the rules once we come to submissions.
Now, of course, as I said, this is mostly just me playing devil's advocate, moreso than anything else. Nonetheless, I still feel that this is an interesting point that should really be considered here.
EDIT: @tawp64: (On Bug Buzz): If a move's not going to be used, there's absolutely no reason to disallow it. If it's not going to be used, then you're essentially saying that the move is non-competitive. However, in that case, there's no reason for it to be banned as an option. After all, in our movepools, we throw in stuff like Tackle, Slash, and Bubble to make them more realistic. Of course, those moves are absolutely worthless, and aren't going to be used against anything, but yet we still allow them and allow them to be put into the movepool (and with the Movepool submission rules, are practically forced to). As a result, something be unused is clearly no reason to ban it from being an option. A move should only be banned if it's too powerful or otherwise goes against the concept in some way, not for a silly reason like that. Beyond that, the last bit is just flavor, and we don't care about that at all: we'll give CAP10 what it needs and deny it what's broken/goes against its concept. Flavor isn't a concern in this part of the project (plus, Dynamicpunch Wooper, Elemental Punch Gastly, etc, etc, all exist, so that's clearly not a problem anyway).
As I look through the progression of discussions here, I fear that we're over-hyping certain threats for CAP10, and overlooking some other Pokes who can really give CAP10 some trouble. While the Counters discussion is over, we still need to find a way to decide whether all of these Pokes should be dealt with through attacking movepool, and if so, which moves. Here's who we should be focusing on (Bold means especially):
Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, Shaymin, Jirachi, Kingdra, Swampert, Bronzong, Machamp, Abomasnow, Celebi, Snorlax, Blissey, and Rotom-C.
Cresselia - I don't see a way for CAP10 to deal well against Cresselia offensively, so there aren't a whole bunch of moves that can help us here. The only Offensive move worth mentioning here is Charge Beam, although we must assume that it can work in conjunction with, say, Substitute. That is pretty much the only way of dealing with Cresselia offensively. If we want to deal with Cresselia (I don't really see an immediate need to), we should do this through Defensive/Support Moves.
Dusknoir - See: Cresselia. I would go on and on about how Pain Split will royally screw over CAP10, but I'll save that for Defensive Move discussions.
Latias - I do not want a Special set beating Latias one on one, and even with Ice Beam, this is already not possible. However, I believe there should be a way to KO Latias on the Physical set, as Latias is one of the most prominent Offensive threats in the OU metagame. I've highlighted that after SR, Ice Punch does 2HKO Latias. However, Payback is another option we can go, and since CAP10 is rather speedy, there will be little usage of this move outside of Latias.
Shaymin - Why are we so focused on Celebi when we have Shaymin? o_O Ice Beam helps a ton, but even so, Ice Beam on the most Specially Defensive versions (252/252 Calm) of Shaymin does 27.7% - 32.7%. From the max SpA EV, Neutral CAP10. Seed Flare, at no investment, 2HKO's. Seed Flare 3HKO's 252/252 Calm CAP10, and is 5-6HKO'd in return. Specially Defensive Shaymin is a huge threat to CAP10, especially since it has no 2x weak moves. How should we address this? Should we address this?
Jirachi - CMJirachi, much like Latias, handles all Special-oriented CAP10 thanks to Calm Mind. Earthquake makes it a 2HKO, though, which means (like Latias) the Physical set will counter.
Kingdra - This guy...I'm extremely worried about. The Special set is nearly OHKO'd by Outrage after one Dragon Dance. A Max SpA Dragon Pulse doesn't OHKO, but this is a moot point anyway, as +1 Kingdra is faster, so there are no 2HKO's. The Defensive set is also 2HKO'd by a +1 Outrage. The only possible way to deal with Kingdra, after a discussion on IRC, is to either give the Offensive version Draco Meteor, or invest 252 Defense and a good portion in SpA to survive an Outrage, hit it, and switch out.
Swampert - A lot has been already said about Swampert. Since a lot of big wigs are hugely intent on having it some sort of check (although that's's still a stretch), HP Grass is our best bet, and it can 2HKO Swampert before it 2HKO's us back. It OHKO's if one layer of Spikes are up or if CAP10 is Modest.
Bronzong - See: Cresselia and Dusknoir, although other than CM Bronzong, it poses little to no threat to Defensive CAP10 with Trace.
Machamp - Machamp actually screws around with all variants of CAP10. It 2HKO's all Offensive versions (remember, Magic Guard only prevents the damage caused by Confusion, not Confusion itself) and 3-4HKO's the max Defensive ones. Meanwhile, Surf 3HKO's Machamp if it's Offensive (due to Lefties) and 5HKO's Machamp if it's Defensive. Either way, CAP10 loses, and this isn't counting Confusion hax. Psychic is our best bet here, scoring a guaranteed 2HKO from Offensive versions, and a 4HKO from Defensive version. Psychic is also one of the most situational moves in the game, so it fits CAP10 nicely. I see no reason why not to add it to the movepool for this very reason: why should Machamp be a check for CAP10?
Abomasnow - Completely trashed by a Fire move. Without one, though, the only hope is that it switches in on an Ice Beam and is 2HKO'd. If not, CAP10 doesn't want to eat a Wood Hammer, really. Flamethrower/HP Fire works well here.
Celebi - The difference between Celebi and Shaymin is Bug attacks. With one (even HP Bug), even Specially Defensive Celebi is toast after SR/Spikes. For this reason alone, there is little to no point in letting CAP10 have some sort of percentage to fail landing a guaranteed 2HKO on Shaymin. Signal Beam and Bug Buzz seems acceptable. Therefore, Shaymin is much more of a threat to CAP10 than Celebi.
Snorlax - We've also talked about this one extensively. Low Kick, Hammer Arm/Cross Chop, and Superpower work well here. Personally, I don't understand why Snorlax and Blissey have to counter every CAP10 set. Isn't countering the more favorable Special set enough reason to be a suitable counter to CAP10?
Blissey - See: Snorlax.
Rotom-C: While it's not as much as a threat as Dusknoir, Rotom-C can actually OHKO/2HKO CAP10 with an offensive move, something Dusknoir cannot do. It also has access to Pain Split, which is a pain (no pun intended.) However, CAP10 can easily dispose of any variant lacking Leaf Storm or Pain Split, especially the Standard variant, with its Special set. No new moves are needed to beat it, but we must think about beating Pain Split.
Cresselia, Dusknoir, Latias, Shaymin, Jirachi, Kingdra, Swampert, Bronzong, Machamp, Abomasnow, Celebi, Snorlax, Blissey, and Rotom-C.
Cresselia - I don't see a way for CAP10 to deal well against Cresselia offensively, so there aren't a whole bunch of moves that can help us here. The only Offensive move worth mentioning here is Charge Beam, although we must assume that it can work in conjunction with, say, Substitute. That is pretty much the only way of dealing with Cresselia offensively. If we want to deal with Cresselia (I don't really see an immediate need to), we should do this through Defensive/Support Moves.
Dusknoir - See: Cresselia. I would go on and on about how Pain Split will royally screw over CAP10, but I'll save that for Defensive Move discussions.
Latias - I do not want a Special set beating Latias one on one, and even with Ice Beam, this is already not possible. However, I believe there should be a way to KO Latias on the Physical set, as Latias is one of the most prominent Offensive threats in the OU metagame. I've highlighted that after SR, Ice Punch does 2HKO Latias. However, Payback is another option we can go, and since CAP10 is rather speedy, there will be little usage of this move outside of Latias.
Shaymin - Why are we so focused on Celebi when we have Shaymin? o_O Ice Beam helps a ton, but even so, Ice Beam on the most Specially Defensive versions (252/252 Calm) of Shaymin does 27.7% - 32.7%. From the max SpA EV, Neutral CAP10. Seed Flare, at no investment, 2HKO's. Seed Flare 3HKO's 252/252 Calm CAP10, and is 5-6HKO'd in return. Specially Defensive Shaymin is a huge threat to CAP10, especially since it has no 2x weak moves. How should we address this? Should we address this?
Jirachi - CMJirachi, much like Latias, handles all Special-oriented CAP10 thanks to Calm Mind. Earthquake makes it a 2HKO, though, which means (like Latias) the Physical set will counter.
Kingdra - This guy...I'm extremely worried about. The Special set is nearly OHKO'd by Outrage after one Dragon Dance. A Max SpA Dragon Pulse doesn't OHKO, but this is a moot point anyway, as +1 Kingdra is faster, so there are no 2HKO's. The Defensive set is also 2HKO'd by a +1 Outrage. The only possible way to deal with Kingdra, after a discussion on IRC, is to either give the Offensive version Draco Meteor, or invest 252 Defense and a good portion in SpA to survive an Outrage, hit it, and switch out.
Swampert - A lot has been already said about Swampert. Since a lot of big wigs are hugely intent on having it some sort of check (although that's's still a stretch), HP Grass is our best bet, and it can 2HKO Swampert before it 2HKO's us back. It OHKO's if one layer of Spikes are up or if CAP10 is Modest.
Bronzong - See: Cresselia and Dusknoir, although other than CM Bronzong, it poses little to no threat to Defensive CAP10 with Trace.
Machamp - Machamp actually screws around with all variants of CAP10. It 2HKO's all Offensive versions (remember, Magic Guard only prevents the damage caused by Confusion, not Confusion itself) and 3-4HKO's the max Defensive ones. Meanwhile, Surf 3HKO's Machamp if it's Offensive (due to Lefties) and 5HKO's Machamp if it's Defensive. Either way, CAP10 loses, and this isn't counting Confusion hax. Psychic is our best bet here, scoring a guaranteed 2HKO from Offensive versions, and a 4HKO from Defensive version. Psychic is also one of the most situational moves in the game, so it fits CAP10 nicely. I see no reason why not to add it to the movepool for this very reason: why should Machamp be a check for CAP10?
Abomasnow - Completely trashed by a Fire move. Without one, though, the only hope is that it switches in on an Ice Beam and is 2HKO'd. If not, CAP10 doesn't want to eat a Wood Hammer, really. Flamethrower/HP Fire works well here.
Celebi - The difference between Celebi and Shaymin is Bug attacks. With one (even HP Bug), even Specially Defensive Celebi is toast after SR/Spikes. For this reason alone, there is little to no point in letting CAP10 have some sort of percentage to fail landing a guaranteed 2HKO on Shaymin. Signal Beam and Bug Buzz seems acceptable. Therefore, Shaymin is much more of a threat to CAP10 than Celebi.
Snorlax - We've also talked about this one extensively. Low Kick, Hammer Arm/Cross Chop, and Superpower work well here. Personally, I don't understand why Snorlax and Blissey have to counter every CAP10 set. Isn't countering the more favorable Special set enough reason to be a suitable counter to CAP10?
Blissey - See: Snorlax.
Rotom-C: While it's not as much as a threat as Dusknoir, Rotom-C can actually OHKO/2HKO CAP10 with an offensive move, something Dusknoir cannot do. It also has access to Pain Split, which is a pain (no pun intended.) However, CAP10 can easily dispose of any variant lacking Leaf Storm or Pain Split, especially the Standard variant, with its Special set. No new moves are needed to beat it, but we must think about beating Pain Split.
guys just stop with the 'we should/shouldn't give it x because it's a shrimp' because design has zero competitive bearing bar grass knot/low kick damage
anyway i agree with cross chop and u-turn being banned, the most important thing is to stop it from doing anything other than countering a specific threat or two. u-turn means that people will switch it in on the gyarados they are trying to counter, then u-turn out to something else. cap 10 IS the counter, not something that sets up the counter. cross chop will just make people try to sweep with it, and blissey is supposed to counter it anyway. i'm dubious on superpower - it is weaker than cross chop after one hit, but it can still do initial massive damage to blissey. i'll look at some more arguments
i'm also iffy on hydro pump. ideally i'd like it banned because surf hits what it needs to hit, especially heatran. plus, there's no reason to run an inaccurate move to counter something, despite a few sweepers like tyranitar and heatran doing so
anyway i agree with cross chop and u-turn being banned, the most important thing is to stop it from doing anything other than countering a specific threat or two. u-turn means that people will switch it in on the gyarados they are trying to counter, then u-turn out to something else. cap 10 IS the counter, not something that sets up the counter. cross chop will just make people try to sweep with it, and blissey is supposed to counter it anyway. i'm dubious on superpower - it is weaker than cross chop after one hit, but it can still do initial massive damage to blissey. i'll look at some more arguments
i'm also iffy on hydro pump. ideally i'd like it banned because surf hits what it needs to hit, especially heatran. plus, there's no reason to run an inaccurate move to counter something, despite a few sweepers like tyranitar and heatran doing so
If the move is not too powerful and does not unbalance the pokemon, I don't see why it should not be allowed. What would hydro pump allow it to beat that would be so dangerous?
Made many, many changes to the list in the OP to reflect my views in regard to how the discussion is going.
Deck: While I understand your points in regard to not "coddling" a specific threat that we want CAP10 to beat, and that for this reason, you think we shouldn't worry that much about giving this Pokemon Bug moves, but I find it extremely odd that in the same breath, you are saying that we should be banning Ice Beam. You have been talking about "defensive versatility" this whole time, and that was a large reason why you supported giving this Pokemon Bug moves, but yet you are making the argument that Ice Beam shouldn't be on this CAP BECAUSE it covers Salamence and does damage to Celebi and Shaymin (considerably less, at that). I have moved closer towards allowing the Bug moves into the movepool, on the basis that you won't always have room for them due to the versatility, and that they would allow you to deal with a very specific threat (and you would probably only bother to run it if you had a problem with Celebi killing things, which fits the concept). However, I don't understand disallowing Ice Beam in tandem with this, because then instead of the cookie cutter "Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam", you're going to be using a different cookie cutter set in which Dragon moves are included and you have the option of running a Bug move to hit Celebi. I feel that the only reason people are complaining about Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam being cookie cutter is because it's cookie cutter *and* unoriginal. By limiting the coverage we get, we are automatically creating this cookie cutter set situation.
So at the time that I write this, I am in favor of allowing Signal Beam, and I can go either way on Bug Buzz and X-Scissor. I'm also in favor of allowing the Dragon moves, on the basis that this adds yet another form of customization. However, I am not in favor of disallowing Ice Beam right now, and I would appreciate it if you could answer the concerns I bring up in this post. As far as physical Ice attacks go, they are significantly weaker and aren't going to be substantial coverage against Celebi and Shaymin anyway, so I would allow them on the basis of hitting Latias, along with having a move to hit Dragons on a physical set.
Deck: While I understand your points in regard to not "coddling" a specific threat that we want CAP10 to beat, and that for this reason, you think we shouldn't worry that much about giving this Pokemon Bug moves, but I find it extremely odd that in the same breath, you are saying that we should be banning Ice Beam. You have been talking about "defensive versatility" this whole time, and that was a large reason why you supported giving this Pokemon Bug moves, but yet you are making the argument that Ice Beam shouldn't be on this CAP BECAUSE it covers Salamence and does damage to Celebi and Shaymin (considerably less, at that). I have moved closer towards allowing the Bug moves into the movepool, on the basis that you won't always have room for them due to the versatility, and that they would allow you to deal with a very specific threat (and you would probably only bother to run it if you had a problem with Celebi killing things, which fits the concept). However, I don't understand disallowing Ice Beam in tandem with this, because then instead of the cookie cutter "Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam", you're going to be using a different cookie cutter set in which Dragon moves are included and you have the option of running a Bug move to hit Celebi. I feel that the only reason people are complaining about Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam being cookie cutter is because it's cookie cutter *and* unoriginal. By limiting the coverage we get, we are automatically creating this cookie cutter set situation.
So at the time that I write this, I am in favor of allowing Signal Beam, and I can go either way on Bug Buzz and X-Scissor. I'm also in favor of allowing the Dragon moves, on the basis that this adds yet another form of customization. However, I am not in favor of disallowing Ice Beam right now, and I would appreciate it if you could answer the concerns I bring up in this post. As far as physical Ice attacks go, they are significantly weaker and aren't going to be substantial coverage against Celebi and Shaymin anyway, so I would allow them on the basis of hitting Latias, along with having a move to hit Dragons on a physical set.
I'd just like to talk about the threats that are relevant to this discussion right now; that is, the ones that can be addressed with attacking moves. The others I removed from the quote, as they're not immediately relevant to the discussion.
Payback and Avalanche I like the idea of. Since they have almost no use outside of countering Latias, they clearly fit the concept and are therefore good additions to CAP-10's movepool. In favor of allowing.
X-Scissor and Bug Buzz - I think X-Scissor is a necessary addition to the movepool that will allow Physical sets to counter Celebi, possibly Shaymin, and other Grass-types that could give it grief. Bug Buzz, however, I find unnecessary, since special sets already have Ice Beam to deal with Grass-types, or Signal Beam if Celebi is really a worry to them. In favor of allowing X-Scissor, in favor of disallowing Bug Buzz.
Outrage is the only Dragon-type move I'd be willing to advocate, since Dragon moves give it a way of dealing with Kingdra, who is otherwise a problem for it, and a ton of non-dragon things already get Outrage anyway. In addition, the fact that it's more situational than any of other Dragon moves (except Draco Meteor) means it also fits CAP-10's concept. In favor of allowing Outrage, in favor of disallowing Draco Meteor. Dragon Claw and Dragon Pulse, I'm neutral on; I think it's better to make it situational in the way that Outrage is than to give it a move like Claw or Pulse that it can easily throw around for coverage. Also, since I didn't explain myself fully as far as DM is concerned, only Dragon-type Pokemon (and the event Jirachi) have ever been capable of learning this move, and I don't see why this thing should break that rule either. Draco Meteor should be considered an exclusive move, albeit one that is exclusive to a type rather than a single Pokemon. Outside of a special event, which won't happen since we're making this one up, there is literally no way for CAP-10 to even learn Draco Meteor.
Psychic should be allowed for the reasons that DrkSlay lists. Simple and self-explanatory.
Overheat is completely unnecessary. The only things that CAP-10 will want to be killing with Fire are Abomasnow and Scizor, and they're both cleanly handled by HP Fire. It could use it, but it wouldn't need it and in fact using it would only be detrimental to CAP-10's performance, since it can just as easily pack HP Fire and avoid the Sp. Atk drop.
Cross Chop is still my favorite option for a fighting move, although I think Brick Break is the next best choice, and Superpower the third. The way I think this should happen is either it gets Cross Chop alone, or Brick Break + Superpower and no Cross Chop. In any case, I suppose I'm for allowing all three.
Low Kick - Seems unnecessary with the addition of any of the above Fighting moves. In favor of disallowing, simply because it's not needed (unless anyone wants to prove me wrong? In which case I'd be in favor of allowing it only alongside Cross Chop).
Rock Slide / Rock Blast - I like these, and I feel kind of stupid for forgetting to mention any rock-type moves. It easily gets Rock Blast as an egg move from Anorith, and that would be an excellent way of addressing Sub-abusing Abomasnow. In favor of allowing. I think it could also use Rock Slide, but I think it would be interesting if it only got the more situational Rock Blast, since it has other ways of dealing with things that are weak to Rock.
Ice Shard - I don't really see why not... my only question is that if THIS is pending / being allowed, why ISN'T Aqua Jet? In favor of allowing both Ice Shard and Aqua Jet.
Oh BTW, I have absolutely no idea as to how to deal with Shaymin. :0 Is it basically just... a clear-cut counter for shrimpy, then? Or what? I got nothin'.
Volt Tackle - I am going to stand firm in my stance of disallowing Volt Tackle for the same reasons as previously stated. Volt Tackle should be considered an exclusive move, and should therefore NOT be on the list of viable competetive attacking moves. Volt Tackle was created to be the exclusive move of the Pikachu family, and that's the way it should stay.
The fact is that no non-CAP Pokemon outside of Pikachu's family has ever had Volt Tackle in its movepool, because it was created with the same intent as moves like Aeroblast and Sacred Fire: to be a special exclusive for that family. I personally disagree with the move being in Cyclohm's movepool, and unless Game Freak itself breaks this rule first, I will not change my stance.
New moves that have been mentioned in previous discussion as they address DrkSlay's post (and don't worry, I kept it bland and flavorless) :
Payback and Avalanche I like the idea of. Since they have almost no use outside of countering Latias, they clearly fit the concept and are therefore good additions to CAP-10's movepool. In favor of allowing.
X-Scissor and Bug Buzz - I think X-Scissor is a necessary addition to the movepool that will allow Physical sets to counter Celebi, possibly Shaymin, and other Grass-types that could give it grief. Bug Buzz, however, I find unnecessary, since special sets already have Ice Beam to deal with Grass-types, or Signal Beam if Celebi is really a worry to them. In favor of allowing X-Scissor, in favor of disallowing Bug Buzz.
Outrage is the only Dragon-type move I'd be willing to advocate, since Dragon moves give it a way of dealing with Kingdra, who is otherwise a problem for it, and a ton of non-dragon things already get Outrage anyway. In addition, the fact that it's more situational than any of other Dragon moves (except Draco Meteor) means it also fits CAP-10's concept. In favor of allowing Outrage, in favor of disallowing Draco Meteor. Dragon Claw and Dragon Pulse, I'm neutral on; I think it's better to make it situational in the way that Outrage is than to give it a move like Claw or Pulse that it can easily throw around for coverage. Also, since I didn't explain myself fully as far as DM is concerned, only Dragon-type Pokemon (and the event Jirachi) have ever been capable of learning this move, and I don't see why this thing should break that rule either. Draco Meteor should be considered an exclusive move, albeit one that is exclusive to a type rather than a single Pokemon. Outside of a special event, which won't happen since we're making this one up, there is literally no way for CAP-10 to even learn Draco Meteor.
Psychic should be allowed for the reasons that DrkSlay lists. Simple and self-explanatory.
Overheat is completely unnecessary. The only things that CAP-10 will want to be killing with Fire are Abomasnow and Scizor, and they're both cleanly handled by HP Fire. It could use it, but it wouldn't need it and in fact using it would only be detrimental to CAP-10's performance, since it can just as easily pack HP Fire and avoid the Sp. Atk drop.
Cross Chop is still my favorite option for a fighting move, although I think Brick Break is the next best choice, and Superpower the third. The way I think this should happen is either it gets Cross Chop alone, or Brick Break + Superpower and no Cross Chop. In any case, I suppose I'm for allowing all three.
Low Kick - Seems unnecessary with the addition of any of the above Fighting moves. In favor of disallowing, simply because it's not needed (unless anyone wants to prove me wrong? In which case I'd be in favor of allowing it only alongside Cross Chop).
Rock Slide / Rock Blast - I like these, and I feel kind of stupid for forgetting to mention any rock-type moves. It easily gets Rock Blast as an egg move from Anorith, and that would be an excellent way of addressing Sub-abusing Abomasnow. In favor of allowing. I think it could also use Rock Slide, but I think it would be interesting if it only got the more situational Rock Blast, since it has other ways of dealing with things that are weak to Rock.
Ice Shard - I don't really see why not... my only question is that if THIS is pending / being allowed, why ISN'T Aqua Jet? In favor of allowing both Ice Shard and Aqua Jet.
Oh BTW, I have absolutely no idea as to how to deal with Shaymin. :0 Is it basically just... a clear-cut counter for shrimpy, then? Or what? I got nothin'.
Volt Tackle - I am going to stand firm in my stance of disallowing Volt Tackle for the same reasons as previously stated. Volt Tackle should be considered an exclusive move, and should therefore NOT be on the list of viable competetive attacking moves. Volt Tackle was created to be the exclusive move of the Pikachu family, and that's the way it should stay.
The fact is that no non-CAP Pokemon outside of Pikachu's family has ever had Volt Tackle in its movepool, because it was created with the same intent as moves like Aeroblast and Sacred Fire: to be a special exclusive for that family. I personally disagree with the move being in Cyclohm's movepool, and unless Game Freak itself breaks this rule first, I will not change my stance.
Overheat is quite useful in quickly dispatching Metagross and Lucario, before they horribly murder you with EQ/CC. The -2 satk is a pretty good downside, as it would prevent CaP10 from doing much sweeping with it.
Good point, that didn't occurr to me... (That really only applies to Meta, though, Luke is KO'd by Earthquake / Cross Chop / Superpower). Meh, I'm still iffy on it.
@ ShockTrooper - But Kingdra pretty much guaranteedly beats CAP-10 without a Dragon move. I'm fine with Kingdra remaining a counter to it, but I don't particularly think it should be getting any Dragon moves except Outrage.
So, basically, no because it sucks? That doesn't make sense to me. Again, the final movepool will probably have stuff like Bubble and Tackle in it. Plus, it's a Move Tutor, so it's not like it would be taking up needless space in the movepool anyway. A move simply being bad, having terrible downsides, or not being used is no reason at all to disallow it. If that's all that's wrong with Outrage, then it should be Allowed, no problem.
Really? Eh, personally I don't think CAP10 should exactly have hard counters at all, really (or rather, we shouldn't deliberately give it hard counters by denying it a move, unless of course that move would actually make it broken or something, which isn't the case here. Not to mention you support Cross Chop anyway, which, while not as good against Snorlax, is better against Blissey than Low Kick, and in any case still makes them shaky counters to CAP10, so I can't see how you can use this argument against LK, but not Cross Chop)--seems to be kind of against the concept to me, despite this notion seeming to be gaining some good ground (and thus, what I'm saying here isn't specifically at you, but all that seem to have this idea). The concept calls for a Pokemon that can be customized to beat practically any Pokemon, depending on moveset, EVs, etc. It makes no distinctions between walls, sweepers, etc or anything. The concept is meant to handle it all, regardless, but only focus on particular threats with each of its threats. Thus, to me at least, a move giving CAP10 an option of beating a small number of given Pokemon, in this case Blissey and Snorlax, seems just fine to me.
And if you don't care, and feel that CAP10 should focus more on offensive threats than Pokemon as a whole anyway, then I can just as easily turn it around and say "Yeah, that's what the concept says... but eh... who cares? It's not exactly what the concept says, but I just really think CAP10 should be a sweeper that can get fantastic coverage with just one moveset." You can't have your cake and eat in too; or, in other words, you can't seemingly ignore the concept at one point, and then start invoking it again at your convenience.
But anyway, back to Low Kick, while Snorlax is indeed a heavyweight, I'm getting the impression here that (and I apologize in advance if I'm wrong on this) you seem to have forgotten that Blissey's actually a light weight--Low Kick has 60 Base Power against it, which translates to an Adamant LO CAP10 doing 42% - 49.6% to the WishBliss set, meaning even with SR, the 2HKO isn't guaranteed factoring in Leftovers, and that's not even Blissey at it's maximum physical defensiveness. Should it actually run 252/252 Bold, it does 35.3% - 41.7%. With Calm, 38.7% - 45.7%. So, I'm not overly concerned about Low Kick's performance against Blissey.
- Status