The Inverse Battle ǝɯɐƃɐʇǝɯ

[DontStealMyPenguin]

1st you mention specs then you mention exellent coverage? What. Porygon can afford to run specs because it has an UNRESISTED SINGLE STAB, which is boosted by ADAPTABILITY. Also, you gotta factor in accuracy as well as power. Missing meteor and fail flare don't do much when they don't hit lol
Note unresisted combos aren't that special in inverse.

I might have to try this groudon everyone's hyping up about actually, before it gets banned.

Also, manaphy got moved down because of the drizzle nerf.

 

[zanorak]

252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Manaphy: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Manaphy: 280-330 (69.3 - 81.6%)

Hell, look at this:

252+ SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Manaphy: 242-286 (59.9 - 70.7%)

I'm not going to try and have a pissing contest about which one is better... but Reshiram is better.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

If you say so... Draco meteor also halves your special attack remember, so neither specced pokemon can guarutee a 2hko on leftovers manaphy/mew/celebi/whatever. Porygon probably has an overall higher chance of a 2hko factoring in miss chance.

 

[zanorak]

Yeah, that wasn't really supposed to serve as a specific example. It was more just to demonstrate that Reshiram simply has moar powah.

 

[Loudo]

The funny thing about the remaining Ubers in Inverse Battle is that, except for Deoxys, they all happen to take great advantage from Groudon's sun. Reshiram's Blue Flare has the same Base Power of Draco Meteor, it does not half your SpA, and it's further boosted by Groudon's Drought. In fact, CS Reshiram under the sun 2HKOs Chansey. Good luck doing that with CS Porygon-Z.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[zanorak]

Wait a second... Deoxys can learn Fire Punch and Solarbeam...

I think I just had an idea.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

I'm sorry but no one runs those EVs on chansey loudo, they're useless. Try 4 hp 252+ spdef.

And yes, grass goes well with psychic type.

 

[Loudo]

What are you talking about?
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold Chansey is the standard Chansey. The only reason you normally use Chansey over Blissey is because Chansey can have a good physical defense in addition to being a special wall.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying your EVs are worthless (in fact, guess in which tier they are normally used?), but if Reshiram forces you to use a suboptimal EV spread on Chansey, I think I've already proved my point...

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

That's my normal chansey, I use it ubers and ou. Everyone uses it lol
252 in hp is worthless for the blobs.

 

[adman2]

What are you talking about?
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold Chansey is the standard Chansey. The only reason you normally use Chansey over Blissey is because Chansey can have a good physical defense in addition to being a special wall.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying your EVs are worthless (in fact, guess in which tier they are normally used?), but if Reshiram forces you to use a suboptimal EV spread on Chansey, I think I've already proved my point...

Uh. . .the HP isn't going to do much for Chansey. Giving it points in its defenses will be much better, and boosted by Eviolite.

Why would adjusting EVs to a major threat like Reshiram be "suboptimal", to play devil's advocate? Chansey is mainly designed to be a special sponge, and Reshiram is a special attacker. . .

 

[Loudo]

Uh. . .the HP isn't going to do much for Chansey. Giving it points in its defenses will be much better, and boosted by Eviolite.

Standard Chansey (i.e. 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD with Bold nature) is already almost as bulky on the special side as standard Blissey is.

252+ SpA Abomasnow Blizzard
vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 91-108 (13.9 - 16.5%)
vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 100-118 (14.2 - 16.7%)

Every choice you make is a compromise. You need to ask yourself: what is more likely to make a difference? Extra special defense (which is already on the same level of the premier special wall of the game) or extra physical defense? In a Uber-less environment, the answer is normally extra physical defense.

Why would adjusting EVs to a major threat like Reshiram be "suboptimal", to play devil's advocate? Chansey is mainly designed to be a special sponge, and Reshiram is a special attacker. . .

You're missing my point. My point is that in an environment without Ubers, the optimal EV spread is the standard one. If that changes because of one Pokémon, that's a pretty strong indication of that Pokémon's power.

Anyway, guys, you can use the EV spread you prefer on Chansey. I don't care, I don't even use the blobs.
But if we are arguing on what spread is considered standard, all you need to do is take a look at the last month's usage statistics.

252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold Chansey

Hide

In OU: 61.707%
In Uber: 23.934%
In Inverse: 61.060%

4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD Calm Chansey

Hide

In OU: 2.302%
In Uber: 15.972%
In Inverse: -

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

That's because the majority of showdown's players aren't very clever and just use the recommended EV spread. The best spread is 252 def 4 hp 252 spdef calm. Not because of reshiram, but it generally takes hits better if it has evs in defences and not hp. Seriously if you're using 252 hp chansey I have no idea what you're doing. Ever since the introduction of eviolite, chansey was always better than blissey. Also, since deoxys-a got banned, I haven't been using any ubers whatsoever but haven't lost to those who do. In terms of bans, Groudon maybe but specs reshiram is fine in this tier.

As I don't use it, it doesn't affect me, but banning specs reshiram is complrtely unneeded IMO. Many non-ubers even perform better than it IG.

 

[Loudo]

No, it doesn't take hits better. It takes special hits better, which in most situations is not needed. The difference in physical defense, on the other hand, is very noticeable.

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 285-336 (44.3 - 52.3%)
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 261-307 (37 - 43.6%)

 

[Rotosect]

Eviolite Chansey runs 252 HP/252+ Def EVs in OU because that metagame is heavily oriented on the physical side, so she plays as a mixed wall there. There are no unboosted special attacks in OU that can 2HKO her and very few boosted ones that can, so there is no point in investing in special defense.
Not running max physical bulk in OU would turn Chansey into an inferior Blissey, especially now that Knock Off is everywhere.

 

[Loudo]

^ Exactly.

Inverse Battle is (was) exactly the same as OU. The only difference is that right now in Inverse Battle we have Ubers. That is the reason you would use a Uber set for Chansey in IB. Without Ubers around, it would just be a suboptimal spread.
(Like adman2 eloquently put it, IB feels sort of like a bizzarro-Uber tier.)

Even against Porygon-Z, which according to DontStealMyPenguin is the best non set up special attacker in Inverse or something like that, Chansey doesn't care about her special defense investment.
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 211-250 (29.9 - 35.5%)

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Well you won't see me running 252 hp chansey, but anyway, being able to 2hko chansey with specs in the sun shouldn't make it quick banned, should it? I mean charizard can probably do that. Also, don't forget it's 4x weaknesses to grass and fire. Especially since a lot of special attackers carry energy ball for coverage.

 

[zanorak]

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 135-159 (19.1 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO

Edit: 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO

Edit 2: 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 220-261 (31.2 - 37%) -- 79.8% chance to 3HKO

 

[Loudo]

I think he meant Solar Power Charizard. The main difference of course is that Reshiram doesn't need the sun to be a threat. The sun simply happens to boost one of its STAB. While normal Charizard without the sun becomes just laughable. (And if you give it a Choice item, it can't Mega so it's going to stay like that.) Abomasnow for example can switch into Charizard all the times it wants. It 4x resists Fire and it doesn't fear Solar Beam, because it changes the weather on the turn it switches in.
Besides, Reshiram's typing and stats are simply better. Yes, even defensively. You can find a moment for it to switch in with resistances to Dragon and Ground. Against what are you going to switch Charizard in? If you're lucky your opponent will have a Water-type in their team, but that's it.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned Reshiram is not a priority. We can wait before banning it. It would probably be for the better anyway. We can judge it better outside the semi-permanent sun that Groudon provides.
What I think it's obviously broken now are Deoxys and Groudon.
Kyurem-W as well should go in my opinion. Not only are its stats and typing too good, but with its coverage nothing besides Blissey/Chansey can really afford to switch in.

 

[zanorak]

Well, then we're agreed. I agree about Reshiram as well; it will probably become more obvious later.

 

[Albacore]

Is it just me, or is Inverse reverting back to Normal Offense? I've seen 2 mono-Normal teams in a row, and it really caught me off guard...

Edit : Make that 3 4...

Also, has anybody else been using Jolteon? STAB Volt Swith is great, especially with all the Grass and Ground types running around. Signal Beam gets really good coverage alongside Volt Switch, and Hyper Voice is great as a safe option. Volt Absorb means it has only one weakness to Flying (well, also Steel, but who cares). I'm on the fence as to wether to use Heal Bell or Light Screen in the fourth slot, but I've never used either. Status isn't really as prominent as I thought it would be, and special attacks are generally uncommon, save for Deoxys' Psycho Boost.

The only problem with Jolteon is his complete lack of bulk. Otherwise, it's an excellent fast supporter.

 

[adman2]

Is it just me, or is Inverse reverting back to Normal Offense? I've seen 2 mono-Normal teams in a row, and it really caught me off guard...

Edit : Make that 3 4...

Also, has anybody else been using Jolteon? STAB Volt Swith is great, especially with all the Grass and Ground types running around. Signal Beam gets really good coverage alongside Volt Switch, and Hyper Voice is great as a safe option. Volt Absorb means it has only one weakness to Flying (well, also Steel, but who cares). I'm on the fence as to wether to use Heal Bell or Light Screen in the fourth slot, but I've never used either. Status isn't really as prominent as I thought it would be, and special attacks are generally uncommon, save for Deoxys' Psycho Boost.

The only problem with Jolteon is his complete lack of bulk. Otherwise, it's an excellent fast supporter.

Well, if they're flooding the tier with Normal Pokemon, what are you waiting for? Put Shadow Ball on EVERY Special Attacker that can use it! :)

 

[Albacore]

Well, if they're flooding the tier with Normal Pokemon, what are you waiting for? Put Shadow Ball on EVERY Special Attacker that can use it! :)

Oh wow, I didn't even think of that! Shadow Ball it is then!
Better make Jolteon into a sweeper more than a supporter then. This thing could actually be really good. It doesn't have many moves to choose from, but it seems to have all of the right ones.

I've also been trying out Scoliopede, but turns out it kinda sucks. Are there any more Pokemon we overlooked?

 

[adman2]

Oh wow, I didn't even think of that! Shadow Ball it is then!
Better make Jolteon into a sweeper more than a supporter then. This thing could actually be really good. It doesn't have many moves to choose from, but it seems to have all of the right ones.

I've also been trying out Scoliopede, but turns out it kinda sucks. Are there any more Pokemon we overlooked?

I've swept teams with Scolipede before. Don't count it out yet.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

The argument against reshiram was that it is able to 2hko chansey in certain conditions. So I was just stating that so can charizard, in the same conditions (252spatk modest solar power specs charizard in the sun) but of course solar power charizard isn't doing shit in inverse. without the sun though, reshiram probably doesn't 2hko 4hp 252 spd NON-calm chansey. So the arguement of raw power and coverage doesn't mean too much, I mean rampardos has 165 base attack and sheer force, and it has coverage on par with nidoqueen and genesect, but you don't see many rampardos around.

Alakazam and cloyster are seriously good late game sweepers and in early game they are brilliant if you can get them in without taking a hit. Ditto is a big 'fuck you' to them though. Ditto is probably a lot better in inverse than standard, because a lot of STAB moves are SE against the user in inverse.
Eg ditto comes in on arcanine and can KO it with super effective flare blitz.

Haven't tried it, but abomasnow is probably very good.


@below: I don't even use it, but if one pokemon needs to be banned right now, it's Smoochum Deoxys normal forme. Seriously why is it still here?

 

[adman2]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-77658624

Zanorak beat me in this battle. This match is a good example of how White Kyurem can be just as broken as its black counterpart. That, and Neutral Deoxys is still overpowered.