The Inverse Battle ǝɯɐƃɐʇǝɯ

[Loudo]

Status isn't really as prominent as I thought it would be, and special attacks are generally uncommon, save for Deoxys' Psycho Boost.

That's kind of funny. Before Pokébank I literally couldn't finish a game without half my team poisoned.
I don't agree with special attacks being uncommon, however.

The argument against reshiram was that it is able to 2hko chansey in certain conditions.

No, it was not. What I said was: 1) Groudon's sun happens to support all the other remaining Ubers except for Deoxys; 2) your claim about Porygon-Z being a better special attacker than Reshiram isn't true.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-77658624

Zanorak beat me in this battle. This match is a good example of how White Kyurem can be just as broken as its black counterpart. That, and Neutral Deoxys is still overpowered.

That is true, but I don't get why you kept switching out Groudon from Deoxys. Groudon is bulky enough to survive any hit at full health. You could have killed that Deoxys on turn 4. It should have been Deoxys to switch out.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Well the first thing you gave me was a calculation of specs reshiram VS something bulky. So l've said that raw power and coverage isn't everything.

 

[Loudo]

Well the first thing you gave me was a calculation of specs reshiram VS something bulky. So l've said that raw power and coverage isn't everything.

Your point being? If raw power and coverage isn't everything, what does Reshiram miss exactly?
It has better defensive stats Celebi. And having a 4x weakness doesn't mean something is not Uber per se. If you take a look at Smogon's Uber list for Generation 5, you will find 5 Pokémon with 4x weaknesses.

Raw power and coverage do make up for a poor defensive typing. If I kill you before you can even attack me, it doesn't really matter what you could have hit me with.

EDIT: Besides, your argument was not "raw power and coverage isn't everything," but exactly the opposite. You've been trying to prove that Reshiram isn't broken by saying that Porygon-Z is a better special attacker and Charizard is as good as it. Both statements aren't true, but even if they were, we'd still be just comparing "raw power."

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Never said charizard was better.

A 4x weakness to the 2nd or 3rd most used offensive tyle and another 4x weakness is pretty bad, and reshiram's speed isn't exactly that good. Fire and dragon only have good neutral coverage anyway, so the SE coverage isn't great. If you think it's so good then by all means carry on using it. I'm certainly not complaining about that.

 

[Loudo]

I never said you said Charizard was better. Seriously, dude, the post is right above yours to be read. And is it possible to have conversation with you which isn't about what you use or don't use in your teams? Because I couldn't care less.
I think that for the sake of my own sanity I'll stop answering your posts from now on...

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Never said charizard was as good as it* just said hat charizard could hit as hard.

Ik I mention what I use a lot, but where was the last post I mentioned my team? Like 5 posts ago?

 

[Albacore]

I don't agree with special attacks being uncommon, however.

That may be just me. I've only be hitting mono-Normal teams lately for some reason. Still, I can never find an opportunity to set up Light Screen. Jolteon would much rather deal some damage.
Special attacks aren't uncommon, it's just that there is a relatively small amount of threatening special attackers : Deoxys (that one's more of a mixed attacker), Reshiram, Kyurem-B, Porygon-Z... what else? Jolteon can deal with all of these on his own, besides Deoxys, but that thing's broken anyway.
Bottom line, I don't think Light Screen is very good on Jolteon.


Honestly, Deoxys should be banned. It's pretty much a requirement to have one on your team right now, and nearly every single match I've had got me to lead with Deoxys, Psycho Boost, OHKO the opposing Pokemon, and sometimes even OHKO the switch-in with Superpower.
But since it's still allowed, what's the best item for it? Life Orb is standard, but Focus Sash can be good if the opponent predicts the Deoxys lead, leads with their Scarfer, and attempts to OHKO you, only to be OHKO'd back (or 2HKO's and finished off by ESpeed). I'm sticking with Life Orb for the moment though, since I've never actually encountered anybody who even attempted to deal with Deoxys.

Cinccino is a beast. Just wanted to point that out. It's just like Ambipom, but with more powerful movesin general. less Attack is noting when you have 125 BP STAB.

Also, it can hold its own much better against Groudon :
252+ Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 280-330 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 210-250 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Groudon: 134-158 (33.1 - 39.1%) -- approx. 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Ambipom Double Hit (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 176-210 (43.5 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


Edit : People, please stop using Scizor and Aegislash. Not only is it stupid, it also catches me so off-guard that it causes me to nearly lose every time.

Edit 2: Okay, I see why I'm facing standard OU teams. Everybody's points dissapeared. On the bright side, I'm now on the top of the ladder! Hooray!

 

[Loudo]

I do agree Light Screen isn't a very good option for Jolteon, but that's mainly because it is frail. You generally want to put your screens on something that can take hits.

 

[adman2]

Ay, Neutral Deoxys is like the Electivire of Ubers to me. It never fails to disappoint me, but it's obnoxious enough to be everywhere. . .

Whether its Zen Headbutt misses or simply failing to do enough damage, I hate both using and fighting against Deoxys.

At least something like Moody is funny to use against random people on Wifi (except when it fails, like when I use it. . .).

 

[Albacore]

Ay, Neutral Deoxys is like the Electivire of Ubers to me. It never fails to disappoint me, but it's obnoxious enough to be everywhere. . .

Whether its Zen Headbutt misses or simply failing to do enough damage, I hate both using and fighting against Deoxys.

At least something like Moody is funny to use against random people on Wifi (except when it fails, like when I use it. . .).

Personally, I've only been let down by it once, when Psycho Boost missed. I run Hasty 252 Atk/252 Spe/4SpA with Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower and Extremespeed. Although I never use the latter, so I might just replace it with Zen Headbutt.

 

[zanorak]

Personally, I've only been let down by it once, when Psycho Boost missed. I run Hasty 252 Atk/252 Spe/4SpA with Psycho Boost, Knock Off, Superpower and Extremespeed. Although I never use the latter, so I might just replace it with Zen Headbutt.

I would actually run Zen Headbutt over Superpower, as you'll still be hitting Psychic-types super-effectively without the stat drops.

 

[adman2]

I would actually run Zen Headbutt over Superpower, as you'll still be hitting Psychic-types super-effectively without the stat drops.

Of course, Zen Headbutt's "90% accuracy" is actually its miss rate, while Superpower hits every time without evasion modifiers. :)

 

[Albacore]

I would actually run Zen Headbutt over Superpower, as you'll still be hitting Psychic-types super-effectively without the stat drops.

Psychic-types are generally OHKO'd by Psycho Boost. Superpower is more useful against the likes of Scoliopede, Venusaur and most Bug-Types and Ghost-types.

 

[Loudo]

Deoxys is just so incredible it can run pretty much any set it wants.

Superpower has the advantage of being SE against more types (and is especially lethal against Lugia). It's important to remember when one uses Deoxys that a SE hit normally translates into a OHKO. This means that with Superpower Deoxys can OHKO a good amount of Pokémon without relying on its teammates to weaken them.

The advantage of Zen Headbutt is mainly against Normal-types. Bulky Normal-types are the only ones Deoxys can never reliably OHKO because of their lack of weaknesses (Shadow Ball doesn't cut it against Pokémon like Snorlax or Chansey), so Zen Headbutt is Deoxys's strongest attack against them.

Against everything else the difference between Zen Headbutt and Superpower hardly matters, because both have the same BP after STAB.

 

[Albacore]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-78216737

This was a pretty funny battle. I knew this was going to be special when Deoxys got poisoned on the first turn.

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-inversebattle-78220822

I have fought this guy four times, and I have lost four times. Genesect is better than its typing suggests.

 

[DontStealMyPenguin]

Genesect was always good in this tier as it could run multiple sets with perfect coverage and it has an above average speed and stab u-turn.

 

[Loudo]

Genesect is sort of a lesser Deoxys. With Genesect's bad defensive typing, they're almost equally frail.
Once Deoxys gets banned though, I can see Genesect trying to take its place.

 

[Albacore]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-78730210
We should find a place to show all the stupid stuff we see in Inverse. Like Castform.

 

[Klang]

Offensive AV Mienshao is fantastic in this metagame.

It can counter or check almost every psychic attacker not named Deo-N (can ANYTHING even check that?) and retaliate with a very strong HJK. Apart from its obnoxiously strong fighting STAB, it gets things like knock off to cripple any chansey attempting to soak a hit, U-turn for momentum, and other options such as fake out and HP ice to revenge kill better and threaten Avalugg respectively (It won't 2hko, but if it takes a knock off beforehand avoiding prior damage will be difficult for it). Regenerator means it can stay healthy throughout the match, allowing it to repeatedly switch in and force out dangerous psychic type sweepers.

While AV doesn't mean it can take every hit fantastically, here's a calc to show how strong the attacks it can take are:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It seems iffy, but keep in mind this is among the strongest neutral attacks that can be thrown at it and with regenerator and u-turn coupled with careful play Mienshao will almost always be at full health.

Obviously stealth rock is a problem, meaning Avalugg or a reasonably bulky defogger is a must to use Mienshao. But without hazards Mienshao will often be able to terrorize the common psychic offense team archetype roaming the metagame.

 

[Loudo]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/inversebattle-78730210
We should find a place to show all the stupid stuff we see in Inverse. Like Castform.

Sorry, but nothing compares to Substitute Shedinja. After I saw that, every other set looks reasonable. =P

While AV doesn't mean it can take every hit fantastically, here's a calc to show how strong the attacks it can take are:
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I think you are forgetting Latios's item. Latios OHKO with either Choice Specs or Life Orb.
Even against many other Psychic Pokémon, that Mienshao doesn't perform very well. Alakazam can 2HKO with Signal Beam (and every Alakazam should have that, since Psychic + Bug have perfect coverage) and is faster. Meloetta is neutral to Fighting and can either change into a form that resists Fighting, or 2HKO with Hyper Voice, or use U-turn. And let's not even look at Victini.

AV Mienshao only works against defensive Psychic-types or Trick Room users (like Reuniclus). And even then, not always (Reuniclus can Knock Off your AV as you switch in, for example). Add the fact that right now the most dangerous special attacker is Kyurem-W and I don't see how AV Mienshao can work.

 

[Albacore]

I'm not convinced any Fighting-type is viable, at least not while Deoxys is still running around. Pretty much every offensive Psychic-type is outclassed by it, and that thing completely destroys Fighting-types with Knock-Off.

 

[Loudo]

That applies to pretty much any type, really. Deoxys can destroy anything with the right coverage.
It only loses to faster opponents (and considering it has 150 base Speed, that means mostly Scarfers) or very strong priority.

Speaking of which, Mach Punch definitely has a niche.

 

[Klang]

I think you are forgetting Latios's item. Latios OHKO with either Choice Specs or Life Orb.
Even against many other Psychic Pokémon, that Mienshao doesn't perform very well. Alakazam can 2HKO with Signal Beam (and every Alakazam should have that, since Psychic + Bug have perfect coverage) and is faster. Meloetta is neutral to Fighting and can either change into a form that resists Fighting, or 2HKO with Hyper Voice, or use U-turn. And let's not even look at Victini.

AV Mienshao only works against defensive Psychic-types or Trick Room users (like Reuniclus). And even then, not always (Reuniclus can Knock Off your AV as you switch in, for example). Add the fact that right now the most dangerous special attacker is Kyurem-W and I don't see how AV Mienshao can work.

The purpose behind AV Mienshao is not really to "wall all psychics" but more to soak a predicted hit and force them out in fear of HJK, which, for offensive teams, is a godsend. Mienshao's mere presence will often deter the use of psychic type moves, allowing say something else to switch in on a predicted signal beam.

As for the draco meteor calc, it was more to show what degree of misprediction Mienshao could survive and then heal back by then switching out with Regenerator to heal back. Most Latios are scarf or either attempt to trick their specs anyway. As for Meloetta, transforming into an inferior type isn't a very good idea in this metagame.

A 252 attack HJK hurts a lot as well, and anything not named Chansey or Avalugg will take a very big dent when it tries to switch in.

And no, slapping an assault vest on something does not let it avoid the 2hko from kyurem. I don't exactly see what point you were trying to make there seeing as it's meant to check psychics.

 

[Loudo]

The purpose behind AV Mienshao is not really to "wall all psychics" but more to soak a predicted hit and force them out in fear of HJK, which, for offensive teams, is a godsend. Mienshao's mere presence will often deter the use of psychic type moves, allowing say something else to switch in on a predicted signal beam.

Mienshao presence doesn't really deter the use of Psychic moves, because Mienshao cannot survive a Psyshock + Signal Beam.

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 102-120 (37.6 - 44.2%)
252 SpA Alakazam Signal Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Mienshao: 170-200 (62.7 - 73.8%)
result: 100,3 - 118%

And that's Alakazam without any items. Life Orb Alakazam and Mega Alakazam can 2HKO Mienshao with Psyshock alone.
In fact, that's one of the main issues about slapping AV on Mienshao. Psychic Pokémon have Psyshock, which completely bypass it.

Most Latios are scarf or either attempt to trick their specs anyway. As for Meloetta, transforming into an inferior type isn't a very good idea in this metagame.

I doubt Choice Scarf Latios is really more common than Choice Specs or Life Orb Latios. Nor Latios should always attempt to Trick its Choice Specs. But if it does, Tricking Choice Specs to Mienshao still seriously cripples it.
As for Meloetta, Meloetta-Pirouette has 128 base Speed. She can revert back to its Psychic typing any time she wants. And Meloetta-Pirouette avoids one of the worst traits of Fighting-types in IB: she doesn't take 25% damage from Stealth Rock. Besides, Relic Song is only one option: Meloetta is pretty much garanteed to win against AV Mienshao no matter what she uses.

A 252 attack HJK hurts a lot as well, and anything not named Chansey or Avalugg will take a very big dent when it tries to switch in.

Hi Jump Kick coming from a neutral natured Mienshao with no attack boosting item isn't that threatening. Especially considering that pretty much any team is garanteed to have at least two Fighting resists (Normal and Ice).

And no, slapping an assault vest on something does not let it avoid the 2hko from kyurem. I don't exactly see what point you were trying to make there seeing as it's meant to check psychics.

My point is that your devoting one slot of your team to something that doesn't really check most Psychic-types, requires support to work (Stealth Rock weakness), and doesn't address the most problematic special attackers in IB right now, which are Dragons (and the most powerful one even resists Fighting!).

 

[Albacore]

Genesect is sort of a lesser Deoxys. With Genesect's bad defensive typing, they're almost equally frail.
Once Deoxys gets banned though, I can see Genesect trying to take its place.

I'm not too sure. Genesect needs a choice Scarf if it doesn't want to get outsped by many threats, but in that case, even with Download, it lacks the power to deal significant damage. Of course, you could go for Banded Extremespeed (which is probably the best set), but you still can't get as many crucial KOs as Deoxys, especially if you get the wrong download boost. Still, there's not much else which can really compare to Deoxys in Inverse, so Genesect seems like a pretty good bet.