Aldaron's proposal: Alternatives?

[Thorhammer]

My hope when making this poll was that people would vote for enough options that at least one or two would have a majority. That doesn't seem to have worked out, though.

However, as with the last poll, it's clear that most people don't want the current system, either. So while now may not be the best time to start changing things, we need to do something after Round 4 finishes and the matters of Latios and Deoxys-S are settled. When that happens, rather than just presenting a handful of options, it would be much more wise for it to be handled by means of an IRV poll involving options similar to the ones here.

 

[MajinNecro69]

I picked solution 9, don't ban anything.

I'm sure there is some combination of Pokemon that could do very well against a Drizzle team, and it's all a matter of figuring out what that is.

Banning wasn't even utilized in Gen4 with Stealth Rock (one of the most dominant forces in that metagame), so why start banning now?

 

[Elite_Trainer_U]

I voted for don't ban anything.

When the smogon's server is down I play on the beta server on PO, where drizzle + SwSw are LEGAL. I run a sand team and although it's easier for me to beat rain teams when they aren't using kindra and company, I can still manage kingdra and ludicolos fairly easily. I just lawl at Kabutops cause it's overrated in my opinion. But anyway, just because a ton of people are running it and it's powerful does not mean it's broken. Look at scizor in gen 4. Most everyone was running a scizor. Did smogon ban it? No. Same concept applies to rain. Should we ban drizzle? No.

Tl; dr: Rain is used a lot and is powerful, but still not banworthy.

 

[Zebstrika]

So you need another weather team to beat rain. That's not overcentralized at all.

It depends. Do we define the Standard metagame as everything that's not broken out of a metagame starting with nothing? Or do we define it as everything that's not broken out of a metagame starting with everything except for Pokemon designated as Ubers by their BST? By the former definition, it's possible for anything to be OU. The latter definition, however, would make it never a possibility.

Worth noting that it wasn't just those six that were tested. It was everything with a BST below 670, which is why Manaphy was retested, and why Latios, Latias, and Mew remain OU.

Well, first you would need to ban stuff like Kyogre and Groudon overcentralizing the metagame. Then, after banning 4-5 pokemon or whatever, you find that the metagame is centralized around 10 pokemon or so (OU has many more common pokemon).

 

[IrishRidire]

I picked the first option, I think we're fine as it is.

 

[chrisb3]

I believe that the solution is to ban nothing. We will just get ban creep where every time something is banned, teams will be built around the next most powerful combo until that is banned and so on.

There are tools in the game to deal with the "broken" pokemon, it is just a matter of them seeing more use. If every team has to consider what stealth rock does to it, why not also consider weather effects?

I would say that entry hazards are worse than anything else out there as the entire competative battle scene has been defined by them since generation 2.

 

[TheValkyries]

It's worth noting that the poll separates "Ban Individual Swift Swimmers" in to four different options of how to go about banning them. If you add them all together, 258 people said they'd like to see individuals banned, which is more than those who said "Keep Aldaron's Proposal" and "Ban Drizzle Entirely" combined.

 

[Benlisted]

It's worth noting that the poll separates "Ban Individual Swift Swimmers" in to four different options of how to go about banning them. If you add them all together, 258 people said they'd like to see individuals banned, which is more than those who said "Keep Aldaron's Proposal" and "Ban Drizzle Entirely" combined.

No, they didn't. It's entirely possible the same group of people voted for each option you're adding together there, meaning you cannot combine the results and get out a bigger statistic at the end of it. All we can take from the polls aside from each individual one and their relative popularity is that there is nowhere near a majority for any option, even similar ones which look like they could be combined.

 

[Yuggles]

I always did hate how the banning of Drizzle + Swift Swim voided the whole 'slippery slope' argument that has been used in Pokemon for a LONG time.

That said, good luck changing anything. Look at those poll results - so many different ideas and opinions. The most popular choice has only 26% of the total vote, and the top two barely barely break 50%. The sweetspot for getting something done on Smogon is usually 60%, right?

 

[Benlisted]

I always did hate how the banning of Drizzle + Swift Swim voided the whole 'slippery slope' argument that has been used in Pokemon for a LONG time.

That said, good luck changing anything. Look at those poll results - so many different ideas and opinions. The most popular choice has only 26% of the total vote, and the top two barely barely break 50%. The sweetspot for getting something done on Smogon is usually 60%, right?

Man, I just said you cannot simply add up two of the poll results and presume that % of the population wants any of the groupings of action/nonaction to be taken! This is a multiple choice poll, the total % of every result does not add up to 100%, and as a result, you can only take every statistic individually to try and prove something. The exact same 25% of people may have provided the 20% for another poll option - adding both up and saying that 45% of the population wants something is entirely unjustifiable and most likely false.

 

[XienZo]

you can only take every statistic individually to try and prove something.

Even that would tell us nothing; anyone can go up and vote if they want, and anyone can NOT go up and vote as well. We have no idea if the people who vote on this poll are anywhere near representative of Smogon; in fact, the people on smogon likely aren't a good representative of those who actually battle on the ladder either.

That is, basically, the numbers in any open poll in a forum are always useless for surmising anything but the most crude estimates.

 

[ab15]

I'd rather ban 1 pokemon than ban 3+ so ban drizzle..

With out Drizzle the other (3+) pokemon wont be used. (as much at least)

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Well, for what it's worth, all options add up to 164.24%...

 

[Arc Tech]

Well, for what it's worth, all options add up to 164.24%...

so each person on average only voted for 1.6 options...

Which surprises me. I voted for 4.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I thought you could only click one...

I clicked "Ban Drizzle Entirely". I also support "Don't Ban Anything" and "Ban individual broken Swift Swim sweepers", or "Ban individual broken Swift Swim sweepers, but only with Drizzle" depending on what's broken. Those four options are the only logical ones, any other options (including Aldaron's Propsal) are logically flawed. Flowchart at bottom in text form.

Look. We're here to ban things that are BROKEN, not make some "ideal metagame". The fact of the matter is, only things that belong in the Uber tier should go there. Aldaron's Proposal is possibly the worst Suspect Test vote in Smogon's history simply because it tries to do everything and fails to do anything correctly. It's painfully obvious that Drizzle and Swift Swim are not broken as a combination, as for a combination to be broken, everything in that combination must be broken. Otherwise, the combination is not broken and something else is (or nothing is). Let's look at the Drizzle situation at its simplest:


Question 1: Is rain broken?

If no, go to Conclusion 1
If yes, go to Question 2

Question 2: What makes Rain broken?

1. Drizzle breaks Swift Swim, go to Conclusion 4
2. Drizzle is broken because of Kingdra and Co., go to Conclusion 2
3. The Swift Swim pokemon are broken because of infinite rain, go to Conclusion 3
4. Both 2 and 3 are accurate, go to Question 3.

Question 3: Is Drizzle broken without SS Sweepers?

Yes, go to Conclusion 2
No, go to Conclusion 5


Conclusion 1: Ban nothing
Conclusion 2: Ban Drizzle
Conclusion 3: Ban some sweepers
Conclusion 4: Read the damn post and try again.
Conclusion 5: Ban Drizzle + The Broken Sweepers as a complex ban

Aldaron's Proposal is incorrect no matter what conclusion you reach. Aldaron's Proposal is similar to Conclusion 5, however, so if you reach that conclusion, just modify the ban to only cover the sweepers.

Remember: We're only here to "ban the broken stuff", NOT "ban what's easy". Aldaron's Proposal was the easy way out, it's also the wrong way out. Let's either repeal it or modify it.

 

[Ulevo]

I thought you could only click one...

I clicked "Ban Drizzle Entirely". I also support "Don't Ban Anything" and "Ban individual broken Swift Swim sweepers", or "Ban individual broken Swift Swim sweepers, but only with Drizzle" depending on what's broken. Those four options are the only logical ones, any other options (including Aldaron's Propsal) are logically flawed. Flowchart at bottom in text form.

So you'll support an alternative complex ban---but Aldaron's proposal is ridiculous. I'm not really impressed.

 

[idiotfrommars]

I voted Ban Individual sweepers because after playing on the beta server a bit the past few days the only things that are broken are Kingdra and possibly Ludicolo.

 

[BKC]

I voted to ban all permanent weather; I really don't enjoy playing in a metagame full of it and being at a large disadvantage if I don't have a weather changer.

 

[Benlisted]

Even that would tell us nothing; anyone can go up and vote if they want, and anyone can NOT go up and vote as well. We have no idea if the people who vote on this poll are anywhere near representative of Smogon; in fact, the people on smogon likely aren't a good representative of those who actually battle on the ladder either.

That is, basically, the numbers in any open poll in a forum are always useless for surmising anything but the most crude estimates.

True, I didn't mean to assert that the stats were particulrly valid, only wanted to stop people misinterpreting them horribly. From the looks of it, a lot of people didn't read the poll and voted only once, which gives us further issues in determining validity.

 

[Moo]

The way I see it, Weather centralising the metagame doesn't have to be a bad thing. It is definetily more important in this gen than last gen, so it's more important that you prepare for it. Not preparing for it is like not preparing for Latias or Salamence last gen.

That's why I'm against banning weather. Of course, if it's broken then that's different, but if it really was broken, then it would've been banned already.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

However, as with the last poll, it's clear that most people don't want the current system, either. So while now may not be the best time to start changing things, we need to do something after Round 4 finishes and the matters of Latios and Deoxys-S are settled. When that happens, rather than just presenting a handful of options, it would be much more wise for it to be handled by means of an IRV poll involving options similar to the ones here.

Whats an IRV poll?

Also, while people dont seem to want things the way they are now, i still dont thinks its a good idea by virtue of the fact that there seems to be two forces moving in completely opposite directions among those who want things to change (ban drizzle or ban abusers somehow), how in the world do you expect to reconcile these 2 completely different desires with one solution?

 

[Mr.L]

I voted to ban all permanent weather; I really don't enjoy playing in a metagame full of it and being at a large disadvantage if I don't have a weather changer.

...how's this any different than carrying a spinner last gen to counter stealth rock?

Or a taunter to stop stall teams?

IMO, the fact that rain is so influential is healthy for the metagame. It leads to interesting strategies from both the rain user and the rain-opposer.

 

[Zebstrika]

Stealth Rock was not as much of a threat as weather is now. It would take only part of a pokemon's health off, but weather can turn crap into powerful sweepers instantly.

Similarly, stall teams can be beaten without Taunt (but I admit this is harder).

 

[Thorhammer]

Whats an IRV poll?

Also, while people dont seem to want things the way they are now, i still dont thinks its a good idea by virtue of the fact that there seems to be two forces moving in completely opposite directions among those who want things to change (ban drizzle or ban abusers somehow), how in the world do you expect to reconcile these 2 completely different desires with one solution?

An IRV poll is one in which people can vote for any number of options in order of preference. They're used to find which solution out of many would satisfy the most people, and are certainly called for here. Even if we can't reconcile everyone, it'll allow for the best possible solution, whatever it is.

Maybe that solution will be to keep Swift Swim + Drizzle banned. But at the moment, I don't think we can assume that.

 

[Mr.L]

Similarly, stall teams can be beaten without Taunt (but I admit this is harder).

The same can be said with Rain, Fancy switching and prediction can outplay a rain team, and with Entry hazard support/TWave support, you can beat a rain team.

Without Swift swim sweepers, Rain is very easily handled; mostly limited to Rain stallers (Vaporeon/Tenta), Hurricane Spamming (Tornadus/DNite), or Specs/Scarf sweepers (Kingdra/Slowbro). Much easier to handle than Sandspam, at least for me.